Matthew 28:19 authentic or not?

[terraricca]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 12 2011,10:21)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 10 2011,19:05) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 10 2011,17:58) Mike It seems altogether unlikely that immediately after Christ had solemnly promulgated the trinitarian formula of baptism, the Apostles themselves would have substituted another. IN FACT, THE WORDS OF ST..PAUL (ACTS 19) IMPLY QUITE PLAINLY THAT THEY DID NOT. What part of this quote do you not understand? It doesn't matter what your conclusions are on the verses. What matters is he is not saying that he doubts Matt 28:19 or the Apostles. Keith, what name does Paul end up baptizing in in Acts 19? It doesn't matter because they are both scriptures and it is to be accepted as scripture and not just cast aside because your doctrine doesn't fit. You refuse to see how the verse harmonizes with all of scripture. You are using scripture against scripture and casting doubt on them. That means that you believe the Bible is corrupt and proves to me that not matter what proof we show you that Jesus is God you will just cast it aside like you do a lot of scriptures like John 1:1 and the rest that say Jesus is God. WJ

WJ

the truth of God is not fund in one verse ,it as to comply with the entire words of God ,otherwise people like you can twist the scriptures to nowhere land.

so stay consistent with all the teachings in scriptures,so it says one God in one God ,one son in one son ,and one holy spirit for all.

Pierre

[Kangaroo Jack Jr.]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 12 2011,03:21)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 10 2011,19:05) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 10 2011,17:58) Mike It seems altogether unlikely that immediately after Christ had solemnly promulgated the trinitarian formula of baptism, the Apostles themselves would have substituted another. IN FACT, THE WORDS OF ST..PAUL (ACTS 19) IMPLY QUITE PLAINLY THAT THEY DID NOT. What part of this quote do you not understand? It doesn't matter what your conclusions are on the verses. What matters is he is not saying that he doubts Matt 28:19 or the Apostles. Keith, what name does Paul end up baptizing in in Acts 19? It doesn't matter because they are both scriptures and it is to be accepted as scripture and not just cast aside because your doctrine doesn't fit. You refuse to see how the verse harmonizes with all of scripture. You are using scripture against scripture and casting doubt on them. That means that you believe the Bible is corrupt and proves to me that not matter what proof we show you that Jesus is God you will just cast it aside like you do a lot of scriptures like John 1:1 and the rest that say Jesus is God. WJ

It doesn't matter also because Paul baptized with the Holy Spirit on that occasion (19:5-6). This had nothing to do with Jesus' statement in Matthew 28:19. In the Great commission Jesus was speaking about baptizing in the classical sense of the term which involved producing a change in the character of men.

Quote

Whatever is capable of thoroughly changing the character, state or condition of any object, is capable of baptizing that object; and by such change of character, state, or condition does, in fact baptize it. Classic Baptism, James W. Dale, p. 353-354

That Jesus was speaking about 'baptizing' in its classical sense is proven by the fact that the word 'baptizing' is a participle. A participle is a verbal adjective and a verbal adjective describes the action of the noun. Baptizing in Matthew 28:19 is not a separate act from the action of the noun. It is a DESCRIPTION of the action of the noun. To make disciples IS to baptize them. “Go and make disciples, baptizing them….”

Mike cannot prove a disconnect between what Jesus said and what the apostles did until he FIRST proves that Jesus was speaking about water baptism. And it is beyond me how Mike can invoke a baptism with the Holy Spirit as proof that there was a disconnect.  

[942767]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 11 2011,04:28)

Quote (942767 @ Mar. 09 2011,21:02) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 10 2011,04:03) Quote (942767 @ Mar. 09 2011,11:25) Yes, I know “Trinitarians” used to burn people like me at the stake if someone did not believe in their doctrine although they cannot even explain the doctrine, and they do not have any scripture which states what they believe, and today, they want to insist that if you do not believe their doctrine you cannot be a member of their church. Wow Marty Stop being hypocritical Marty and do some research of church history and you will see that many Trinitarians were killed by the Arians also. Athanasius was exiled by an Arian. Now you claim that because we say you would be classified as a Heretic for denying the word of God that someone is going to kill you? What a diversion! Why didn't you answer my questions about the scriptures I gave you? One of them is your own proof text.  Here they are again… If the Father sent himself then who is it that searches the deep things of God? but God has revealed it to us by his Spirit. “The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God. 2 Cor 2:10 Does the Father search himself? If the Spirit is the Father then who is this… And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the “Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father“. Gal 4:6 Is the Father the Spirit that the Father sent crying “Abba” Father in us? Does the Father cry “Abba” to himself? Please explain Marty! WJ Hi Keith: Do you have a scripture which states that the Holy Spirit is THE THIRD PERSON OF A TRI-UNE GOD? Why don't you answer this question? Love in Christ, Marty Marty Yes, and I gave you several passages of many already that show the Holy Spirit is not the Father or Jesus but is mentioned with them including Matt 28:19 which you have rejected as scripture so why ask the quesiton again? Is there a scripture that says the Holy Spirit is not a person? Can you prove by scripture the Holy Spirit is not a person? I hear all the chatter and the claims that you and Mike make about the Holy Spirit not being a person yet neither one of you can show us how the Holy Spirit is not a person using scripture. The Holy Spirit “hears, speaks, thinks, searches, teaches, grieves, feels, loves, and yet you guys say he is not a person? If he is not a person then what is he?   WJ

Hi Keith:

You did not answer my question, and apparently, you can't read, because the scripture states specifically that the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God. The scripture also states that the Holy Spirit reveals the thoughts of God when he speaks, and so when the scripture states that the Holy Ghost hears or speaks or anything else, we know by virtue of the scriptures that he is speaking the mind of God.

The burden of proof is upon you because you are teaching a doctrine for which there is no scripture, but is an opinion based on your interpretation of scripture.

2 John 1 states:

Quote

9Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.

The Father and the Son the scripture states. That is two not three. God dwells within all born again believers by His Spirit.

By the scriptures, the Holy Ghost is the Spirit of God my Heavenly Father, and is not “The Third Person of a Tri-une God.

The scriptures are my proof. Where the your proof for your doctrine?

Love in Christ,
Marty

[942767]

Hi Jack:

You say:

Quote

I would agree with you that no one today has that power. There is no baptism of the Holy Spirit today.

Jack, if you do not have not received the baptism of the Holy Spirit then you cannot teach me anything because you yourself are not saved.

Love in Christ,
Marty

[Ed J]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 12 2011,03:21)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 10 2011,19:05) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 10 2011,17:58) Mike It seems altogether unlikely that immediately after Christ had solemnly promulgated the trinitarian formula of baptism, the Apostles themselves would have substituted another. IN FACT, THE WORDS OF ST..PAUL (ACTS 19) IMPLY QUITE PLAINLY THAT THEY DID NOT. What part of this quote do you not understand? It doesn't matter what your conclusions are on the verses. What matters is he is not saying that he doubts Matt 28:19 or the Apostles. Keith, what name does Paul end up baptizing in in Acts 19? It doesn't matter because they are both scriptures and it is to be accepted as scripture and not just cast aside because your doctrine doesn't fit. You refuse to see how the verse harmonizes with all of scripture. You are using scripture against scripture and casting doubt on them. That means that you believe the Bible is corrupt and proves to me that not matter what proof we show you that Jesus is God you will just cast it aside like you do a lot of scriptures like John 1:1 and the rest that say Jesus is God. WJ

Hi WJ,

“Jesus” is NOT MENTIONED in John 1:1; didn't you know that?
What you offer is 'your spin' as to what you believe is being said; No?

God bless  
Ed J
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (942767 @ Mar. 12 2011,11:15)

You did not answer my question, and apparently, you can't read, because the scripture states specifically that “the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God.

Yes Marty

But when are you going to answer my questions?

Jesus is the Son OF God, does that mean he is the Father?

Then why do you assume that the “Spirit of God” is the Father?

It is you that cannot read scripture and can't answer simple questions like “did the Father and Jesus send the Father?”

Does the Father take from Jesus and give to us?

Can the Father speak on his own?

Does the Father pray to himself?

These are all characteristics of the Holy Spirit that proceeds from the Father and Jesus.

There are many scriptures that show he is not the Father Marty, but you choose to stick your head in the sand and deny they exist like you do Mattew 28:19.

Quote (942767 @ Mar. 12 2011,11:15)

….apparently, you can't read, because the scripture states specifically that “the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God..

Who are you to tell me about reading scripture since you reject scriptures like Matthew 28:19 as being scripture?  

WJ

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Ed J @ Mar. 12 2011,11:53)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 12 2011,03:21) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 10 2011,19:05) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 10 2011,17:58) Mike It seems altogether unlikely that immediately after Christ had solemnly promulgated the trinitarian formula of baptism, the Apostles themselves would have substituted another. IN FACT, THE WORDS OF ST..PAUL (ACTS 19) IMPLY QUITE PLAINLY THAT THEY DID NOT. What part of this quote do you not understand? It doesn't matter what your conclusions are on the verses. What matters is he is not saying that he doubts Matt 28:19 or the Apostles. Keith, what name does Paul end up baptizing in in Acts 19? It doesn't matter because they are both scriptures and it is to be accepted as scripture and not just cast aside because your doctrine doesn't fit. You refuse to see how the verse harmonizes with all of scripture. You are using scripture against scripture and casting doubt on them. That means that you believe the Bible is corrupt and proves to me that not matter what proof we show you that Jesus is God you will just cast it aside like you do a lot of scriptures like John 1:1 and the rest that say Jesus is God. WJ Hi WJ, “Jesus” is NOT MENTIONED in John 1:1; didn't you know that? What you offer is 'your spin' as to what you believe is being said; No? God bless   Ed J http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

ED

Why don't you ask Mike about that one since you are “Arian” buddys?

WJ

[Ed J]

Hi WJ,

What is an “Arian” buddy?

ED

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Ed J @ Mar. 12 2011,12:30)

Hi WJ, What is an “Arian” buddy? ED

To put it simple, an Arian was a follower of “Arius” who in the RCC rejected that Jesus was God.

WJ

[Ed J]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 13 2011,05:52)

Quote (Ed J @ Mar. 12 2011,12:30) Hi WJ, What is an “Arian” buddy? ED To put it simple, an Arian was a follower of “Arius” who in the RCC rejected that Jesus was God. WJ

Hi WJ,

I'm NOT a follower of Arius; but of “Christ”.
The definition of “Christian” is: a follower of Christ.
I would appreciate it if you desisted from starting rumors!

Your brother
in Christ, Jesus!
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Ed J @ Mar. 12 2011,12:59)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 13 2011,05:52) Quote (Ed J @ Mar. 12 2011,12:30) Hi WJ, What is an “Arian” buddy? ED To put it simple, an Arian was a follower of “Arius” who in the RCC rejected that Jesus was God. WJ Hi WJ, I'm NOT a follower of Arius; but of “Christ”. The definition of “Christian” is: a follower of Christ. I would appreciate it if you desisted from starting rumors!

Ed

Your beliefs line up with Arius when it comes to Jesus being God.

Sorry, but that means you are in the Arian camp which has been waring against Trinitarianism with no results for centuries.

WJ

[Ed J]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 13 2011,06:29)

Quote (Ed J @ Mar. 12 2011,12:59) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 13 2011,05:52) Quote (Ed J @ Mar. 12 2011,12:30) Hi WJ, What is an “Arian” buddy? ED To put it simple, an Arian was a follower of “Arius” who in the RCC rejected that Jesus was God. WJ Hi WJ, I'm NOT a follower of Arius; but of “Christ”. The definition of “Christian” is: a follower of Christ. I would appreciate it if you desisted from starting rumors! Ed Your beliefs line up with Arius when it comes to Jesus being God. Sorry, but that means you are in the Arian camp which has been waring against Trinitarianism with no results for centuries. WJ

Hi WJ,

How exactly have I waring been against Trinitarianism?   …know your “FACTS”
This is more evidence of how you 'spin' the facts; No?

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Ed J @ Mar. 12 2011,14:12)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 13 2011,06:29) Quote (Ed J @ Mar. 12 2011,12:59) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 13 2011,05:52) Quote (Ed J @ Mar. 12 2011,12:30) Hi WJ, What is an “Arian” buddy? ED To put it simple, an Arian was a follower of “Arius” who in the RCC rejected that Jesus was God. WJ Hi WJ, I'm NOT a follower of Arius; but of “Christ”. The definition of “Christian” is: a follower of Christ. I would appreciate it if you desisted from starting rumors! Ed Your beliefs line up with Arius when it comes to Jesus being God. Sorry, but that means you are in the Arian camp which has been waring against Trinitarianism with no results for centuries. WJ Hi WJ, How exactly have I waring been against Trinitarianism?   …know your “FACTS” This is more evidence of how you 'spin' the facts; No?

Ed

You claim you are “a bridge” but you always side with the “anti-Jesus is God crowd.

That is the facts!

WJ

[Ed J]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 13 2011,07:16)

Quote (Ed J @ Mar. 12 2011,14:12) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 13 2011,06:29) Quote (Ed J @ Mar. 12 2011,12:59) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 13 2011,05:52) Quote (Ed J @ Mar. 12 2011,12:30) Hi WJ, What is an “Arian” buddy? ED To put it simple, an Arian was a follower of “Arius” who in the RCC rejected that Jesus was God. WJ Hi WJ, I'm NOT a follower of Arius; but of “Christ”. The definition of “Christian” is: a follower of Christ. I would appreciate it if you desisted from starting rumors! Ed Your beliefs line up with Arius when it comes to Jesus being God. Sorry, but that means you are in the Arian camp which has been waring against Trinitarianism with no results for centuries. WJ Hi WJ, How exactly have I waring been against Trinitarianism?   …know your “FACTS” This is more evidence of how you 'spin' the facts; No? God bless Ed J (Joshua 22:34) http://www.holycitybiblecode.org Ed You claim you are “a bridge” but you always side with the “anti-Jesus is God crowd. WJ

Hi WJ,

Because if I side with you, you will believe you are making progress
in swaying me towards your “INCOMPLETE” view of God.
And I don't want to encourage you to believe in
something 'FALSE'; like you believing you
are swaying me away from TRUTH!

         Trinitarianism and non-Trinitarianism

The Truth is: there is a bridge between these two views;
and I have told you this a number of times already!
But you still are not willing to consider this.

Your brother
in Christ, Jesus!
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Ed J @ Mar. 12 2011,14:33)

Hi WJ, Because if I side with you, you will believe you are making progress in swaying me towards your “INCOMPLETE” view of God. And I don't want to encourage you to believe in something 'FALSE'; like you believing you are swaying me away from TRUTH!

So you are not a bridge but are in their camp!

Ha Ha! You have bridged nothing Ed with your half God half man Jesus.

WJ

[mikeboll64]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 11 2011,10:21)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 10 2011,19:05) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 10 2011,17:58) Mike It seems altogether unlikely that immediately after Christ had solemnly promulgated the trinitarian formula of baptism, the Apostles themselves would have substituted another. IN FACT, THE WORDS OF ST..PAUL (ACTS 19) IMPLY QUITE PLAINLY THAT THEY DID NOT. What part of this quote do you not understand? It doesn't matter what your conclusions are on the verses. What matters is he is not saying that he doubts Matt 28:19 or the Apostles. Keith, what name does Paul end up baptizing in in Acts 19? It doesn't matter because they are both scriptures and it is to be accepted as scripture and not just cast aside because your doctrine doesn't fit. You refuse to see how the verse harmonizes with all of scripture. You are using scripture against scripture and casting doubt on them. That means that you believe the Bible is corrupt and proves to me that not matter what proof we show you that Jesus is God you will just cast it aside like you do a lot of scriptures like John 1:1 and the rest that say Jesus is God. WJ

Answer the question, Keith.

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 12 2011,15:04)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 11 2011,10:21) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 10 2011,19:05) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 10 2011,17:58) Mike It seems altogether unlikely that immediately after Christ had solemnly promulgated the trinitarian formula of baptism, the Apostles themselves would have substituted another. IN FACT, THE WORDS OF ST..PAUL (ACTS 19) IMPLY QUITE PLAINLY THAT THEY DID NOT. What part of this quote do you not understand? It doesn't matter what your conclusions are on the verses. What matters is he is not saying that he doubts Matt 28:19 or the Apostles. Keith, what name does Paul end up baptizing in in Acts 19? It doesn't matter because they are both scriptures and it is to be accepted as scripture and not just cast aside because your doctrine doesn't fit. You refuse to see how the verse harmonizes with all of scripture. You are using scripture against scripture and casting doubt on them. That means that you believe the Bible is corrupt and proves to me that not matter what proof we show you that Jesus is God you will just cast it aside like you do a lot of scriptures like John 1:1 and the rest that say Jesus is God. WJ Answer the question, Keith.

Jesus.

So how does that negate Mattew 28:19 as being scripture Mike?

Is Jesus wrong or the Apostles?

Will you continue to pit the scriptures against each other in an effort to discredit their authenticity because of your own falied doctine rather than finding harmony with the scriptures as Jack and I have explained?

WJ

[Ed J]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 13 2011,07:51)

Quote (Ed J @ Mar. 12 2011,14:33) Hi WJ, Because if I side with you, you will believe you are making progress in swaying me towards your “INCOMPLETE” view of God. And I don't want to encourage you to believe in something 'FALSE'; like you believing you are swaying me away from TRUTH! So you are not a bridge but are in their camp! Ha Ha! You have bridged nothing Ed with your half God half man Jesus. WJ

Hi WJ,

I know you reject the way I tie the Scriptures together; but for the readers sake, here goes “Bible Truth” anyways…
Luke 10:30: And Jesus answering said, A certain man(Jesus of Nazareth) went down from Jerusalem
to Jericho, and fell among thieves, which stripped him of his raiment (John 19:24),
and wounded him, and departed, leaving him HALF DEAD.

Matt.21:13 And [Jesus] said unto them, It is written,
My house shall be called the house of prayer;
but ye have made it a den of thieves.

Rom.8:11 But if the [HolySpirit of YHVH] that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you,
he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal
bodies by [God's HolySpirit] that dwelleth in you.

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

[942767]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 13 2011,05:23)

Quote (942767 @ Mar. 12 2011,11:15) You did not answer my question, and apparently, you can't read, because the scripture states specifically that “the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God. Yes Marty But when are you going to answer my questions? Jesus is the Son OF God, does that mean he is the Father? Then why do you assume that the “Spirit of God” is the Father? It is you that cannot read scripture and can't answer simple questions like “did the Father and Jesus send the Father?” Does the Father take from Jesus and give to us? Can the Father speak on his own? Does the Father pray to himself? These are all characteristics of the Holy Spirit that proceeds from the Father and Jesus. There are many scriptures that show he is not the Father Marty, but you choose to stick your head in the sand and deny they exist like you do Mattew 28:19. Quote (942767 @ Mar. 12 2011,11:15) ….apparently, you can't read, because the scripture states specifically that “the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God.. Who are you to tell me about reading scripture since you reject scriptures like Matthew 28:19 as being scripture?   WJ

Hi Keith:

I have already answered your questions, and so, go back and study what I said by the scriptures and you will have the answers to those questions.

I haven't assumed anything, but have used the scriptures to show you the truth, and so, I will post the following scripture below to emphasize that there are not three but two.

Quote

2 John 1:9Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.

Love in Christ,
Marty

[mikeboll64]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 12 2011,14:12)

Jesus. So how does that negate Mattew 28:19 as being scripture Mike? Is Jesus wrong or the Apostles? Will you continue to pit the scriptures against each other in an effort to discredit their authenticity because of your own falied doctine rather than finding harmony with the scriptures as Jack and I have explained? WJ

Thank you Keith.

We know that scripture doesn't contradict itself…………UNLESS man has tampered with it.

I find it very hard to believe that Jesus would have promulgated one thing and the Apostles all did another.  

And maybe time will tell about this scripture.  I find it interesting that Pope Benedict said the formula was changed by the Catholic Church in the 2nd century.  I also find it interesting that Eusebius would have ever written “in my name” if he hadn't read that.  

You must admit that even trinitarian scholars have been having trouble with this scripture and the following baptisms for almost 2000 years.

We all have a right to voice concerns when they are warranted.  And if ever a concern was warranted, this is one of those times.

Keith, even as it is 28:19 says nothing about any trinity Godhead.  It only shows Jesus giving a baptismal formula that no Apostle ever followed.

There is nothing about this scripture that is worth all this anger we've been showing.  It's most likely a fabrication of the Catholic Church of the 2nd century.  But even if it's not, it doesn't prove a trinity God, so let it go.

It's really not that important to your “cause” because it proves nothing.

peace and love to you,
mike

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