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Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 05 2011,08:43) John 1:1 is proof that Jesus is God when you take it in context of 1:3 “not one thing came into being” without Jesus yet the Hebrew scriptures tell us God alone created all things
Or is it proof that Jesus, himself a mighty one, was with THE ALMIGHTY ONE in the beginning, and that THE ALMIGHTY ONE created every single thing THROUGH His begotten Son?mike
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 06 2011,01:43) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 04 2011,22:58) Yet I'm not allowed to voice concern over a scripture that has FOR ALMOST 2000 YEARS caused controversy? That's too rich, man!
MikeHa Ha again.
Like I said this is proof that you doubt the scriptures which means that no matter what proof from scripture that is put to you that the Trinity is found in the scriptures you will deny it.
John 1:1 is proof that Jesus is God when you take it in context of 1:3 “not one thing came into being” without Jesus yet the Hebrew scriptures tell us God alone created all things.
These two scriptures alone must gnaw at you.
Thanks for the compliment that I am a “precious card”.
WJ
Keith,You hung Mike up like wallpaper on your point that the Catholic Encyclopedia says that the Church changed their baptism formula. This says nothing at all about the what the biblical text says.
You showed that Mike does not know how to read with comprehension. Love you maaaan!
WHEN IS MIKE GOING TO COUGH UP THE MANUSCRIPT INWHICH THE TRI-UNE NAME IS ABSENT?
Jack
Quote (942767 @ Mar. 04 2011,20:46) No Keith: The Holy Spirit is not “another”. The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God my Father, and that is sufficient proof that Matthew 28:19 is not what Jesus said.
MartySo then Jesus was a liar when he said…
And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you “another” Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. John 14:16, 17
Jesus did not send the Father, nor did the Father send himself.
Why do you choose not to accept plain english?
This is sad. You claim you are open to scriptures correcting you and then deny it.
I question anything you believe now because you do not believe all scriptures are inspired, and so will any member of a church that you pastor.
WJ
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 06 2011,08:42) Quote (terraricca @ Mar. 05 2011,07:30) WJ of cause not ,but it is strange that Math;28;19 does not appears in the Hebrew gospel,and that it make the trinitarian so happy,
all know that the holy spirit is not a person,(based on all scriptures)and that there is only two baptism the one of John and the one in the name of Christ Jesus,
one is for the repentance of the Jews,the other one is for receiving forgiveness of our sins and so enter the reconciliation process with God,by changing our lives into the will of Gods holiness ,in other words to become holy like God is holy,can that be done ? yes if we stop pursuing wickedness,
and change by applying Gods words to our lives to the fullestso baptism as very little to do with being saved,
only organized religion like it because of there proselyte culture.and love for division.(the devil like it to)
Pierre
Well said Pierre.When does the Hebrew Gospel you refer to date back to? What is the oldest ms we have of this?
mike
Mike,WJHebrew Gospel of Matthew by George Howard -Mercer university press -1995-
Pierre
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 05 2011,10:04) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 05 2011,08:43) John 1:1 is proof that Jesus is God when you take it in context of 1:3 “not one thing came into being” without Jesus yet the Hebrew scriptures tell us God alone created all things
Or is it proof that Jesus, himself a mighty one, was with THE ALMIGHTY ONE in the beginning, and that THE ALMIGHTY ONE created every single thing THROUGH His begotten Son?mike
MikeIf he created everything through Jesus then that means he was not alone, or by himself, right?
What do you do with those Hebrew scriptures and with John and Paul who knew them yet penned John 1:1-3 and Col 1:16-19.?
Could it be that they understood that the Father, Jesus and the Holy Spirit are one God?
That is the only way to reconcile those scriptures.
Will you now question those scriptures also?
WJ
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 05 2011,08:43) Like I said this is proof that you doubt the scriptures which means that no matter what proof from scripture that is put to you that the Trinity is found in the scriptures you will deny it.
Keith, out of all the scriptures, about which one ONLY have I expressed doubt? Are you blind to the reason I doubt? Am I not in good and plenty company when I doubt this one? Even the Catholic Encyclopedia says:It seems altogether unlikely that immediately after Christ had solemnly promulgated the trinitarian formula of baptism, the Apostles themselves would have substituted another.
Yet we know for a scriptural FACT that the Apostles DID “substitute” another formula, right?
What's not to doubt? Especially in light of “mistakes” like 1 John 5:8 and Jude 1:4?
Keith, in light of the 2000 YEARS of doubt surrounding this one scripture that doesn't even say anything about any triune God anyway, don't you think it's weak on your part to hold to this scripture so tightly?
I mean, if your trinity was real, you would have THOUSANDS of scriptures to choose from. Yet you always fall back on 28:19 and 1:1.
Keith tell me, what IS this singular name that people were supposed to be baptised in? What IS this “name” of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit? Because “Father” is one name. “Son” is another. And “Holy Spirit” is yet another.
You are insistent about pointing out the ONE NAME, yet you don't seem to know what that ONE name is, because you go on to list three.
mike
Quote (Kangaroo Jack Jr. @ Mar. 05 2011,09:08) WHEN IS MIKE GOING TO COUGH UP THE MANUSCRIPT INWHICH THE TRI-UNE NAME IS ABSENT?
I count THREE names, not ONE. But I know of only ONE NAME the Apostles baptised in.mike
Quote (terraricca @ Mar. 05 2011,10:14) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 06 2011,08:42) Quote (terraricca @ Mar. 05 2011,07:30) WJ of cause not ,but it is strange that Math;28;19 does not appears in the Hebrew gospel,and that it make the trinitarian so happy,
all know that the holy spirit is not a person,(based on all scriptures)and that there is only two baptism the one of John and the one in the name of Christ Jesus,
one is for the repentance of the Jews,the other one is for receiving forgiveness of our sins and so enter the reconciliation process with God,by changing our lives into the will of Gods holiness ,in other words to become holy like God is holy,can that be done ? yes if we stop pursuing wickedness,
and change by applying Gods words to our lives to the fullestso baptism as very little to do with being saved,
only organized religion like it because of there proselyte culture.and love for division.(the devil like it to)
Pierre
Well said Pierre.When does the Hebrew Gospel you refer to date back to? What is the oldest ms we have of this?
mike
Mike,WJHebrew Gospel of Matthew by George Howard -Mercer university press -1995-
Pierre
PierreWhat MSS did they use because all the extant MSS have Matthew 28:19 in its tripart form?
This proves nothing. Even the NWT has the Tripart form of Matt 28:19 and we know they are a militant anti-Jesus is God group.
WJ
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 05 2011,10:19) Quote (Kangaroo Jack Jr. @ Mar. 05 2011,09:08) WHEN IS MIKE GOING TO COUGH UP THE MANUSCRIPT INWHICH THE TRI-UNE NAME IS ABSENT?
I count THREE names, not ONE. But I know of only ONE NAME the Apostles baptised in.mike
MikeWrong again! Matthew 28:19 has a “Singular name”.
WJ
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 05 2011,09:16)
MikeIf he created everything through Jesus then that means he was not alone, or by himself, right?
Keith, He created you THROUGH your parents, and even THROUGH Adam and Eve, yet He chooses to take full credit by saying He ALONE created all. Who are YOU to argue with God Himself?Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 05 2011,09:16)
Could it be that they understood that the Father, Jesus and the Holy Spirit are one God?
Apparently not, because not once did they mention such a thing, did they?Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 05 2011,09:16)
That is the only way to reconcile those scriptures.
No, it's not. God ALONE created Cain, yet He did that THROUGH Adam and Eve, right?mike
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 05 2011,09:23) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 05 2011,10:19) Quote (Kangaroo Jack Jr. @ Mar. 05 2011,09:08) WHEN IS MIKE GOING TO COUGH UP THE MANUSCRIPT INWHICH THE TRI-UNE NAME IS ABSENT?
I count THREE names, not ONE. But I know of only ONE NAME the Apostles baptised in.mike
MikeWrong again! Matthew 28:19 has a “Singular name”.
WJ
What name is that name?Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 06 2011,08:56) Quote (terraricca @ Mar. 05 2011,07:30) WJ of cause not ,but it is strange that Math;28;19 does not appears in the Hebrew gospel,and that it make the trinitarian so happy,
What Hebrew Gospel are you talking about. Matthew 28:19 was written by a Hebrew who followed Jesus and heard his words first hand.Quote (terraricca @ Mar. 05 2011,07:30) yes if we stop pursuing wickedness,
and change by applying Gods words to our lives to the fullest
Gods word also includes Matthew 28:19 doesn't it!WJ
WJi am yet not sure,but if so it could not be interpreted as a trinity,
because the holy spirit is not a person,the father is and the son is,
that only leaves two,but like always were is any supporting scripture to make sure that it is so ,i mean to be baptized in the father and the son??
and what kind of baptism would that be ??the water or the spirit one ??
we know two only 1)John the baptist that is the repentance and Jesus name gift of the holy spirit ,
of cause how many really received the holy spirit is still a debate.and how it could be notice that someone as received it.
it seems that Matt28;19 as be a formula to encapsulate both baptism in only one,and that is were i am troubled,
Pierre
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 05 2011,10:16) Keith, in light of the 2000 YEARS of doubt surrounding this one scripture that doesn't even say anything about any triune God anyway, don't you think it's weak on your part to hold to this scripture so tightly?
Doubt where Mike?It sure isn't with the Forefathers and it sure isn't with oldest church in the world, and it sure isn't with the Biblical Hebrew and Greek scholars and commentators and the majority of Christendom for centuries.
But thanks for your honesty that you don't hold on tight to certain scriptures.
Should I also doubt them like you?
As far as Jude 1:4 and the 1 John 5:8 I believe they are inspired also for they were found in some manuscripts.
Nope, but again this is why you are out in your own little doctrinal world because noto only do you think you know more than all the Biblical Hebrew and Greek scholars and commentators and the majority of Christendom, but now you know more than the writers of the scriptures.
You lose man.
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 06 2011,09:33) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 05 2011,10:16) Keith, in light of the 2000 YEARS of doubt surrounding this one scripture that doesn't even say anything about any triune God anyway, don't you think it's weak on your part to hold to this scripture so tightly?
Doubt where Mike?It sure isn't with the Forefathers and it sure isn't with oldest church in the world, and it sure isn't with the Biblical Hebrew and Greek scholars and commentators and the majority of Christendom for centuries.
But thanks for your honesty that you don't hold on tight to certain scriptures.
Should I also doubt them like you?
As far as Jude 1:4 and the 1 John 5:8 I believe they are inspired also for they were found in some manuscripts.
Nope, but again this is why you are out in your own little doctrinal world because noto only do you think you know more than all the Biblical Hebrew and Greek scholars and commentators and the majority of Christendom, but now you know more than the writers of the scriptures.
You lose man.
WJdo you really believe that all those scholars and others where all friends of God and so were at all times ready to put there live at stake in front of the Church in power ??
if you do you are miss guided.
Pierre
Quote (terraricca @ Mar. 05 2011,10:44) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 06 2011,09:33) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 05 2011,10:16) Keith, in light of the 2000 YEARS of doubt surrounding this one scripture that doesn't even say anything about any triune God anyway, don't you think it's weak on your part to hold to this scripture so tightly?
Doubt where Mike?It sure isn't with the Forefathers and it sure isn't with oldest church in the world, and it sure isn't with the Biblical Hebrew and Greek scholars and commentators and the majority of Christendom for centuries.
But thanks for your honesty that you don't hold on tight to certain scriptures.
Should I also doubt them like you?
As far as Jude 1:4 and the 1 John 5:8 I believe they are inspired also for they were found in some manuscripts.
Nope, but again this is why you are out in your own little doctrinal world because noto only do you think you know more than all the Biblical Hebrew and Greek scholars and commentators and the majority of Christendom, but now you know more than the writers of the scriptures.
You lose man.
WJdo you really believe that all those scholars and others where all friends of God and so were at all times ready to put there live at stake in front of the Church in power ??
if you do you are miss guided.
Pierre
PeirreIf it wasn't for God using those men you would not have a Bible to read.
What proof do you have they were not Men of God?
Is it because most of them were Trinitarian that you reject them or cast a shadow on them?
Many of them died for their faith and defending the scriptures that you have today.
Who are you to cast doubt on the Forefathers of the Christian faith and the Christian scriptures?
WJ
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 05 2011,09:33) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 05 2011,10:16) Keith, in light of the 2000 YEARS of doubt surrounding this one scripture that doesn't even say anything about any triune God anyway, don't you think it's weak on your part to hold to this scripture so tightly?
Doubt where Mike?It sure isn't with the Forefathers and it sure isn't with oldest church in the world, and it sure isn't with the Biblical Hebrew and Greek scholars and commentators and the majority of Christendom for centuries.
Keith, can you read this:It seems altogether unlikely that immediately after Christ had solemnly promulgated the trinitarian formula of baptism, the Apostles themselves would have substituted another.
These are the very words of the best Trinitarian minds the Catholic Encyclopedia had to offer at the time this was written.
Do you, like most of us, agree with these words? Do you not find it the least bit troubling that no Apostle of record actually baptised the way Jesus supposedly told them to?
mike
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 06 2011,10:09) Quote (terraricca @ Mar. 05 2011,10:44) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 06 2011,09:33) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 05 2011,10:16) Keith, in light of the 2000 YEARS of doubt surrounding this one scripture that doesn't even say anything about any triune God anyway, don't you think it's weak on your part to hold to this scripture so tightly?
Doubt where Mike?It sure isn't with the Forefathers and it sure isn't with oldest church in the world, and it sure isn't with the Biblical Hebrew and Greek scholars and commentators and the majority of Christendom for centuries.
But thanks for your honesty that you don't hold on tight to certain scriptures.
Should I also doubt them like you?
As far as Jude 1:4 and the 1 John 5:8 I believe they are inspired also for they were found in some manuscripts.
Nope, but again this is why you are out in your own little doctrinal world because noto only do you think you know more than all the Biblical Hebrew and Greek scholars and commentators and the majority of Christendom, but now you know more than the writers of the scriptures.
You lose man.
WJdo you really believe that all those scholars and others where all friends of God and so were at all times ready to put there live at stake in front of the Church in power ??
if you do you are miss guided.
Pierre
PeirreIf it wasn't for God using those men you would not have a Bible to read.
What proof do you have they were not Men of God?
Is it because most of them were Trinitarian that you reject them or cast a shadow on them?
Many of them died for their faith and defending the scriptures that you have today.
Who are you to cast doubt on the Forefathers of the Christian faith and the Christian scriptures?
WJ
WJso you would call the Hebrew scholars of the time of Christ also God guided men and yet the were killing Christ.
was Saul of Tarsus guided in the truth of God while he was killing the church of God??
all the forefathers so called by the corrupt catholic church,
are any better?
and all the scholars who came out after the apostles were all godly men is it
remember good or bad way, men is used by God and judgement is waiting us all.
Jesus only mention to believe in the words of his disciples ,
those all die within the first century,
all the others are under scrutiny,
and like i say before i am nobody,
just a Christ follower.Pierre
Quote (terraricca @ Mar. 05 2011,12:45) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 06 2011,10:09) Quote (terraricca @ Mar. 05 2011,10:44) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 06 2011,09:33) mikeboll64,Mar. wrote:Keith, in light of the 2000 YEARS of doubt surrounding this one scripture that doesn't even say anything about any triune God anyway, don't you think it's weak on your part to hold to this scripture so tightly?
Doubt where Mike?It sure isn't with the Forefathers and it sure isn't with oldest church in the world, and it sure isn't with the Biblical Hebrew and Greek scholars and commentators and the majority of Christendom for centuries.
But thanks for your honesty that you don't hold on tight to certain scriptures.
Should I also doubt them like you?
As far as Jude 1:4 and the 1 John 5:8 I believe they are inspired also for they were found in some manuscripts.
Nope, but again this is why you are out in your own little doctrinal world because noto only do you think you know more than all the Biblical Hebrew and Greek scholars and commentators and the majority of Christendom, but now you know more than the writers of the scriptures.
You lose man.
WJdo you really believe that all those scholars and others where all friends of God and so were at all times ready to put there live at stake in front of the Church in power ??
if you do you are miss guided.
Pierre
PeirreIf it wasn't for God using those men you would not have a Bible to read.
What proof do you have they were not Men of God?
Is it because most of them were Trinitarian that you reject them or cast a shadow on them?
Many of them died for their faith and defending the scriptures that you have today.
Who are you to cast doubt on the Forefathers of the Christian faith and the Christian scriptures?
WJ
Quote (terraricca @ Mar. 05 2011,12:45) all the forefathers so called by the corrupt catholic church, are any better?
This is a broad and ignorant response for someone who claims they are nobody.WJ
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 05 2011,12:38) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 05 2011,09:33) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 05 2011,10:16) Keith, in light of the 2000 YEARS of doubt surrounding this one scripture that doesn't even say anything about any triune God anyway, don't you think it's weak on your part to hold to this scripture so tightly?
Doubt where Mike?It sure isn't with the Forefathers and it sure isn't with oldest church in the world, and it sure isn't with the Biblical Hebrew and Greek scholars and commentators and the majority of Christendom for centuries.
Keith, can you read this:It seems altogether unlikely that immediately after Christ had solemnly promulgated the trinitarian formula of baptism, the Apostles themselves would have substituted another.
These are the very words of the best Trinitarian minds the Catholic Encyclopedia had to offer at the time this was written.
Do you, like most of us, agree with these words? Do you not find it the least bit troubling that no Apostle of record actually baptised the way Jesus supposedly told them to?
mike
MikeThose words say nothing about the text not being true or inspired do they? So no I do not agree with you and the ant-Jesus is God crowd that blots this scripture out of the book.
Could it be that you doubt it because you have rejected the truth?
Could it be that the Apostles understood that invoking the name of Jesus was also invoking the Father and the Holy Spirit? Of course it could. The proof of that would be they had just heard Jesus say “All Authority and Power” was given to him.
But I believe the scirptures all of them and you doubt them.
In fact it is my belief that the reason there are those who are anti-Jesus is God is because when you get right down to it they all doubt the scriptures.
WJ
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 06 2011,12:47) Quote (terraricca @ Mar. 05 2011,12:45) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 06 2011,10:09) Quote (terraricca @ Mar. 05 2011,10:44) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 06 2011,09:33) mikeboll64,Mar. wrote:Keith, in light of the 2000 YEARS of doubt surrounding this one scripture that doesn't even say anything about any triune God anyway, don't you think it's weak on your part to hold to this scripture so tightly?
Doubt where Mike?It sure isn't with the Forefathers and it sure isn't with oldest church in the world, and it sure isn't with the Biblical Hebrew and Greek scholars and commentators and the majority of Christendom for centuries.
But thanks for your honesty that you don't hold on tight to certain scriptures.
Should I also doubt them like you?
As far as Jude 1:4 and the 1 John 5:8 I believe they are inspired also for they were found in some manuscripts.
Nope, but again this is why you are out in your own little doctrinal world because noto only do you think you know more than all the Biblical Hebrew and Greek scholars and commentators and the majority of Christendom, but now you know more than the writers of the scriptures.
You lose man.
WJdo you really believe that all those scholars and others where all friends of God and so were at all times ready to put there live at stake in front of the Church in power ??
if you do you are miss guided.
Pierre
PeirreIf it wasn't for God using those men you would not have a Bible to read.
What proof do you have they were not Men of God?
Is it because most of them were Trinitarian that you reject them or cast a shadow on them?
Many of them died for their faith and defending the scriptures that you have today.
Who are you to cast doubt on the Forefathers of the Christian faith and the Christian scriptures?
WJ
Quote (terraricca @ Mar. 05 2011,12:45) all the forefathers so called by the corrupt catholic church, are any better?
This is a broad and ignorant response for someone who claims they are nobody.WJ
WJyou are somebody and have a good knowledge of many scholars who do not agree with your views ,and call them heretics,just look at all your comments in the trinity section,and debate,
you call me broad ,look at your own answers how broad you are,
and you are somebody,
i know you are not catholic but the forefathers are basically all catholic or Orthodox,or one of the other little sects in the same period of time.
so wich one of your scholars would fit for truth of God,
i would say ORIGEN is one ,
Pierre
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