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Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 10 2010,15:31) Hi Dennison, How are you my friend? I hope well.
You said:
Quote Adam: was compared to Christ whom is perfect, who didnt sin. The second Adam. Compared? Or was it more like “contrasted”?
You said:
Quote Jesus Cannot do anything without the Father according to scripture. God chose to do everything through his Son.
Perfection.Well said. The truth is so simple sometimes.
peace and love,
mike
Hey mike,doing swell!
I dont know, it depends on your defintion. What do you mean by contrasted?
God is all about perfect simplicity.
Much love,
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 01 2010,16:39) Quote (Elizabeth @ April 30 2010,22:34) W.J. The first Christians did not believe in the trinity.
IreneJesus and Matthew and the Apostles did.
Matthew 28:19 reveals a Trinity, the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, right?
Or are you gonna blot that one out of your Bible also Irene?
WJ
You have only one leg to stand on, while I gave you several Scriptures….. are you going to deny those? I believe if there is a contradiction in Scriptures the majority of Scriptures stand…. that is what I believe…. if Math. 28:19 was added i do not know, but like I said there are more Scriptures that tell me that there is no trinity….prove all things….the trinity is a doctrine of man and not of God, since it was Tertullian who first came up with it….that makes me think that Math. 28:19 must have been added…Look up Tertullian and prove it….Some one once told me that Math 28:19 should say:”In name of the Father and of the Son and of His Holy Spirit…. that makes more sense, and does not take away from that Scripture. Why don't you look into the Concordance and take all of the Scriptures that say Holy Spirit. There are several of those Scriptures and all say God's Holy Spirit…look at Luke 1:35 the power of the Highest…
Acts 2:17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, says God, That I will pour out of My Spirit on all flesh…..In Acts 8 starting in verse 18-20 that the gift of God could be purchased…. talking about God's Holy Spirit…I could go on with some more but you should get the picture… do you?
….. or do you not want to do so….I truly believe that some Pastors know, but because they are in a job and would not know what else they could do… i am talking about a Catholic Priest that knew when we approached Him and He said to Georg God is calling you….we left that Church then….
Peace and Love IreneQuote (Arnold @ June 17 2010,09:50) if Math. 28:19 was added i do not know, but like I said there are more Scriptures that tell me that there is no trinity
Hi Irene,Don't give in to him. Matt 28:19 just as it is written does not in any way prove, or even imply a trinity of three persons in a godhead. Your wording makes is sound as if you concede that it does. It doesn't.
peace and love,
mikeHi All
JA claims that Matt 28:19 has been debunked because every one here disagrees with me a Trinitarian and though it is found in every extant manuscript as well as the Didache, JA says it doesn't fit.
Doesn't fit what, his doctrine?
Yet I have looked through this thread and have found no evidence the scripture is not valid and no exlanation by anyone as to why Jesus spoke of the three, The Father, The Son and The Holy Spirit giving each one the definite article and a singular name that is shared.
All they seem to come up with is it must not be scripture. Excuse me but I will believe the scripture and Jesus words over all that disagree.
Jesus spoke of a “Trinity” now how one defines that is a different story but never the less Jesus and the Apostles mention the three as seperate and distinct identities or persons yet they are one.
WJ
Quote (Arnold @ June 17 2010,09:50) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 01 2010,16:39) Quote (Elizabeth @ April 30 2010,22:34) W.J. The first Christians did not believe in the trinity.
IreneJesus and Matthew and the Apostles did.
Matthew 28:19 reveals a Trinity, the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, right?
Or are you gonna blot that one out of your Bible also Irene?
WJ
You have only one leg to stand on, while I gave you several Scriptures….. are you going to deny those? I believe if there is a contradiction in Scriptures the majority of Scriptures stand…. that is what I believe…. if Math. 28:19 was added i do not know, but like I said there are more Scriptures that tell me that there is no trinity….prove all things….the trinity is a doctrine of man and not of God, since it was Tertullian who first came up with it….that makes me think that Math. 28:19 must have been added…Look up Tertullian and prove it….Some one once told me that Math 28:19 should say:”In name of the Father and of the Son and of His Holy Spirit…. that makes more sense, and does not take away from that Scripture. Why don't you look into the Concordance and take all of the Scriptures that say Holy Spirit. There are several of those Scriptures and all say God's Holy Spirit…look at Luke 1:35 the power of the Highest…
Acts 2:17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, says God, That I will pour out of My Spirit on all flesh…..In Acts 8 starting in verse 18-20 that the gift of God could be purchased…. talking about God's Holy Spirit…I could go on with some more but you should get the picture… do you?….. or do you not want to do so….I truly believe that some Pastors know, but because they are in a job and would not know what else they could do… i am talking about a Catholic Priest that knew when we approached Him and He said to Georg God is calling you….we left that Church then….
Peace and Love Irene
WJ Now you are going to ignore my post to you? I also believe that Math. 28:19 was tempered with. It should say:” In the name of the Father and of the Son and of His Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is not a person otherwise if that were true, He would be the Father of Jesus. Mike is right I should not even give you that one Scripture…. I am not going to blot that out at all….I think you need to study more…..And ask God to show you the truth….my rule is to have at least two Scriptures to prove it to be true…. not just one…..and you have none…….
Peace and Love IreneQuote (Baker @ Sep. 21 2010,21:47) Quote (Arnold @ June 17 2010,09:50) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 01 2010,16:39) Quote (Elizabeth @ April 30 2010,22:34) W.J. The first Christians did not believe in the trinity.
IreneJesus and Matthew and the Apostles did.
Matthew 28:19 reveals a Trinity, the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, right?
Or are you gonna blot that one out of your Bible also Irene?
WJ
You have only one leg to stand on, while I gave you several Scriptures….. are you going to deny those? I believe if there is a contradiction in Scriptures the majority of Scriptures stand…. that is what I believe…. if Math. 28:19 was added i do not know, but like I said there are more Scriptures that tell me that there is no trinity….prove all things….the trinity is a doctrine of man and not of God, since it was Tertullian who first came up with it….that makes me think that Math. 28:19 must have been added…Look up Tertullian and prove it….Some one once told me that Math 28:19 should say:”In name of the Father and of the Son and of His Holy Spirit…. that makes more sense, and does not take away from that Scripture. Why don't you look into the Concordance and take all of the Scriptures that say Holy Spirit. There are several of those Scriptures and all say God's Holy Spirit…look at Luke 1:35 the power of the Highest…
Acts 2:17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, says God, That I will pour out of My Spirit on all flesh…..In Acts 8 starting in verse 18-20 that the gift of God could be purchased…. talking about God's Holy Spirit…I could go on with some more but you should get the picture… do you?….. or do you not want to do so….I truly believe that some Pastors know, but because they are in a job and would not know what else they could do… i am talking about a Catholic Priest that knew when we approached Him and He said to Georg God is calling you….we left that Church then….
Peace and Love Irene
WJ Now you are going to ignore my post to you? I also believe that Math. 28:19 was tempered with. It should say:” In the name of the Father and of the Son and of His Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is not a person otherwise if that were true, He would be the Father of Jesus. Mike is right I should not even give you that one Scripture…. I am not going to blot that out at all….I think you need to study more…..And ask God to show you the truth….my rule is to have at least two Scriptures to prove it to be true…. not just one…..and you have none…….
Peace and Love Irene
IreneYou believe it was tampered with but you have no proof.
Prove it.
Do you know what the Didache is?
Have you not read how the early Church Fathers including Ignatius a disciple of John speaks of the three persons?
Put up the proof or admit that you don't believe all of the scriptures or Jesus words.
WJ
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Sep. 21 2010,21:49) Hi All JA claims that Matt 28:19 has been debunked because every one here disagrees with me a Trinitarian and though it is found in every extant manuscript as well as the Didache, JA says it doesn't fit.
Doesn't fit what, his doctrine?
Yet I have looked through this thread and have found no evidence the scripture is not valid and no exlanation by anyone as to why Jesus spoke of the three, The Father, The Son and The Holy Spirit giving each one the definite article and a singular name that is shared.
All they seem to come up with is it must not be scripture. Excuse me but I will believe the scripture and Jesus words over all that disagree.
Jesus spoke of a “Trinity” now how one defines that is a different story but never the less Jesus and the Apostles mention the three as seperate and distinct identities or persons yet they are one.
WJ
WJyou have trow a hot potato in the cage and step back to watch now one has touched your potato and now you are frustrated
it is definitely not your congregation.
Pierre
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Sep. 21 2010,14:49) Hi All JA claims that Matt 28:19 has been debunked because every one here disagrees with me a Trinitarian and though it is found in every extant manuscript as well as the Didache, JA says it doesn't fit.
Doesn't fit what, his doctrine?
Yet I have looked through this thread and have found no evidence the scripture is not valid and no exlanation by anyone as to why Jesus spoke of the three, The Father, The Son and The Holy Spirit giving each one the definite article and a singular name that is shared.
All they seem to come up with is it must not be scripture. Excuse me but I will believe the scripture and Jesus words over all that disagree.
Jesus spoke of a “Trinity” now how one defines that is a different story but never the less Jesus and the Apostles mention the three as seperate and distinct identities or persons yet they are one.
WJ
Hi WJ,There's no evidence to suggest Matt 28:19 was added,
UNLIKE 1John 5:7, which NO DOUBT was added!God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgHi All
Many of the Forefathers including Ignatius a Disciple of the Apostle John mention the three persons, The Father, Son and the Holy Spirit.
It has been satans attempt for centuries to deny the three that exist, which is a Trinity even if you do not agree that they share the same being or eternal essence. I will be adding some quotes from the early Fathers that confirm Matt 28:19 and the Trinity.
Here is a quote from Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers, Ser. II, Vol. IX Hilary of Poitiers, John of Damascus…
1. “Believers have always found their satisfaction in that Divine utterance, which our ears heard recited from the Gospel at the moment when that Power, which is its attestation, was bestowed upon us:—Go now and teach all nations, baptizing them in the Name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I command you; and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world ”556 . What element in the mystery of man’s salvation is not included in those words? What is forgotten, what left in darkness? All is full, as from the Divine fulness; perfect, as from the Divine perfection. “The passage contains the exact words to be used, the essential acts, the sequence of processes, an insight into the Divine nature” He bade them baptize in the Name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, that is with confession of the Creator and of the Only-begotten, and of the Gift. For God the Father is One, from Whom are all things; and our Lord Jesus Christ the Only-begotten, through Whom are all things, is One; and the Spirit, God’s Gift to us, Who pervades all things, is also One. Thus all are ranged according to powers possessed and benefits conferred;—the One Power from Whom all, the One Offspring through Whom all, the One Gift Who gives us perfect hope. “Nothing can be found lacking in that supreme Union which embraces, in Father, Son and Holy Spirit, infinity in the Eternal, His Likeness in His express Image, our enjoyment of Him in the Gift.” Source
This is another confirmation of the “Eternal co-existence of the three”.
WJ
WJ
don't get to high on the trinity;
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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The Apostolic Fathers are a small number of Early Christian authors who lived and wrote in the second half of the 1st century and the first half of the 2nd century.[1][2] They are acknowledged as leaders in the early church, although their writings were not included in the New Testament. They include St. Clement of Rome, St. Ignatius of Antioch, and St. Polycarp of Smyrna.The label “Apostolic Fathers” has been applied to them since the 17th century to indicate that they were thought of as being of the generation that had personal contact with the Twelve Apostles. Thus they provide a link between the Apostles who knew Jesus of Nazareth and the later generation of Church Fathers: Christian apologists, defenders of orthodoxy, and developers of doctrine
now pay attention on the words “”MAY HAVE KNOWN THE APOSTLE JOHN”””may stand s for may be ,not certain.
Ignatius of Antioch
Main article: Ignatius of Antioch
Saint Ignatius of Antioch (also known as Theophorus {GK – God-bearer}) (c 35-110)[11] was bishop of Antioch.[12] He may have known the Apostle John directly, and his thought is certainly influenced by the tradition associated with this Apostle.[13] En route to his martyrdom in Rome, Ignatius wrote a series of letters which have been preserved as an example of the theology of the earliest Christians. Important topics addressed in these letters include ecclesiology, the sacraments, the role of bishops[14], and the nature of Biblical Sabbath.[15] He clearly identifies the local-church hierarchy composed of bishop, presbyters, and deacons and claims to have spoken in some of the churches through the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. He is the second after Clement to mention Paul's epistles.[history do not mach with yours;;The New Testament does not have an explicit doctrine of the Trinity. However, Southern Baptist theologian Frank Stagg emphasizes that the New Testament does repeatedly speak of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit to “compel a trinitarian understanding of God.”[4]
The doctrine developed from the biblical language used in New Testament passages such as the baptismal formula in Matthew 28:19 and took substantially its present form by the end of the 4th century as a result of controversies in which some theologians, when speaking of God, used terms such as “person”, “nature”, “essence”, “substance”, terms that had never been used by the Apostolic Fathers, in a way that the Church authorities considered to be erroneous.[5][6][7][8]
Trinitarianism contrasts with Nontrinitarian positions which include Binitarianism (one deity/two persons), Unitarianism (one deity/one person), the Oneness belief held by certain Pentecostal groups, Modalism, and The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints' view of the Godhead as three separate beings who are one in purpose rather than essence
something does not line up with you dates here;;
Trinity(from the same encyclopedia)
It is most notable for being the earliest extant Christian work to use the word “Trinity” (Greek: τριας trias ) to refer to the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, or as Theophilus himself put it: “God, his Word (Logos) and his Wisdom (Sophia).” [22] It is possible that the word may have been used before this time as many Greek Christian works before Theophilus were lost. [23] The context for his use of the word Trinity is commentary on the successive work of the creation weeks (Genesis chapters 1-3). According to Theophilus, the sun is the image of God; the moon of man, whose death and resurrection are prefigured by the monthly changes of that luminary. The first three days before the creation of the heavenly bodies are types of the Trinity.Alternatively, the references to the Logos and Sophia (wisdom) may be ideas taken from Greek philosophy or Hellenistic Judaism. The concept of intermediate divine beings was common to Platonism and heretical Jewish sects. In Proverbs 8 Wisdom (as feminine consort) is described as God's Counsellor and Workmistress, who dwelt beside Him before the creation of the world
what puzzles me the most is that Math;28;19 was told to the 11 disciples and was not carried out by them only some and exceptionally,did they fail to understand it?
Pierre
Quote (terraricca @ Oct. 07 2010,16:44) now pay attention on the words “”MAY HAVE KNOWN THE APOSTLE JOHN”””may stand s for may be ,not certain.
PierreYou should try reading the “early church Fathers writings rather than just what mans opinions are surrounding them.
You will see that they believed in the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, HMMM, that is a Trinity isn't it?
WJ
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Oct. 08 2010,21:01) Quote (terraricca @ Oct. 07 2010,16:44) now pay attention on the words “”MAY HAVE KNOWN THE APOSTLE JOHN”””may stand s for may be ,not certain.
PierreYou should try reading the “early church Fathers writings rather than just what mans opinions are surrounding them.
You will see that they believed in the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, HMMM, that is a Trinity isn't it?
WJ
WJso you pick and chose,??
Origen did not beleive in it,clement of Alexandry did not,
the Apostles did not teach it ,to me the fathers of my faith are the 12 apostles that include Paul, everything else is for grasp.
Jn 17:14 I have given them your word and the world has hated them, for they are not of the world any more than I am of the world.
Jn 17:15 My prayer is not that you take them out of the world but that you protect them from the evil one.
Jn 17:16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of it.
Jn 17:17 Sanctify them by the truth; your word is truth.
Jn 17:18 As you sent me into the world, I have sent them into the world.
Jn 17:19 For them I sanctify myself, that they too may be truly sanctified.Jn 17:20 “My prayer is not for them alone(the 12). I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message(THE MESAGE OF THE APOSTLES)
“early church Fathers writings ,but i have read them many years ago and found them just as wacky than some on this forum,
what is it that you can teach me that the spirit of Christ can not??
but i know what you can not understand unless you have recieve the spirit of Christ ,early fathers or not.
the scriptures are not ours to do what we want with it ,if you do God will pay you in goods,so you will have lost your Godly reward.
Pierre
Quote (terraricca @ Oct. 07 2010,23:09)
WJso you pick and chose,??
Pierre
PierreIsn't that what you did, “pick and choose”?
Do you believe this is scripture?….
Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Matt 28:19
Isn't that a scripture, if you say not, then who is picking and choosing?
Can you prove these are not the words of our Savour?
Jesus spoke of the three as well as Paul, Peter, James, John, and most of the Forefathers, the three are One, and that is a “Trinity”.
WJ
Hi All
Origen
Origen attempted to synthesize Christian scriptural interpretation and belief with Greek philosophy, especially Neoplatonism and Stoicism. “His theology was an expression of **Alexandrian reflection on the Trinity**, and, prior to Saint Augustine, he was the most influential theologian of the church“. Some of Origen's ideas remained a source of controversy long after his death, and “Origenism” was condemned at the fifth ecumenical council in 553 (Council of Constantinople). Origen is one of the best examples of early Christian mysticism: the highest good is to become as like God as possible through progressive illumination. Despite their sometimes controversial character, his writings helped to create a Christian theology that blended biblical and philosophical categories…..The three Persons of the Trinity are distinguished from all creatures by the three following characteristics: absolute immateriality, omniscience, and substantial sanctity. As is well known many ancient ecclesiastical writers attributed to created spirits an aerial or ethereal envelope without which they could not act. Though he does not venture to decide categorically, Origen inclines to this view, but, as soon as there is a question of the Divine Persons, he is perfectly sure that they have no body and are not in a body; and this characteristic belongs to the Trinity alone (De princip., IV, 27; I, vi, II, ii, 2; II, iv, 3 etc.). ….Along with these perfectly orthodox texts there are some which must be interpreted with diligence, remembering as we ought that the language of theology was not yet fixed and that Origen was often the first to face these difficult problems. “It will then appear that the subordination of the Divine Persons, so much urged against Origen, generally consists in differences of appropriation (the Father creator, the Son redeemer, the Spirit sanctifier) which seem to attribute to the Persons an unequal sphere of action, or in the liturgical practice of praying the Father through the Son in the Holy Ghost, or in the theory so widespread in the Greek Church of the first five centuries, that the Father has a pre-eminence of rank (taxis) over the two other Persons, inasmuch as in mentioning them He ordinarily has the first place, and of dignity (axioma) because He represents the whole Divinity, of which He is the principle (arche), the origin (aitios), and the source (pege). That is why St. Athanasius defends Origen's orthodoxy concerning the Trinity and why St. Basil and St. Gregory of Nazianzus replied to the heretics who claimed the support of his authority that they misunderstood him. Source
So Origen believed in “a Trinity”.
WJ
Hi all
The Trinity
The doctrine of the Trinity is encapsulated in Matthew 28:19, where Jesus instructs the apostles: “Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.”
The parallelism of the Father, the Son, and the Spirit is not unique to Matthew’s Gospel, but appears elsewhere in the New Testament (e.g., 2 Cor. 13:14, Heb. 9:14), as well as in the writings of the earliest Christians, who clearly understood them in the sense that we do today—that the Father, the Son, and the Spirit are three divine persons who are one divine being (God).
The Didache“After the foregoing instructions, baptize in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, in living [running] water. . . . If you have neither, pour water three times on the head, in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit” (Didache 7:1 [A.D. 70]). Source
WJ
Worshiping Jesus,
How do you choose to reconcile Jesus' command to immerse his student in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost with the actions of the Eleven who chose instead to immerse them solely iin the name of Jesus?
Hi All
CLEMENT OF ALEXANDRIA (215 C.E.):
“…the Divine Word, He that is truly most manifest Deity, He that is made equal to the Lord of the universe; because He was His Son, and the Word was in God….I understand nothing else than the Holy Trinity to be meant; for the third is the Holy Spirit, and the Son is the second, by whom all things were made according to the will of the Father.” The Ante-Nicene Fathers, vol. 2, pp. 202, 468
WJ
Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 08 2010,10:40) Worshiping Jesus, How do you choose to reconcile Jesus' command to immerse his student in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost with the actions of the Eleven who chose instead to immerse them solely iin the name of Jesus?
KerwinHave you read this thread?
I explained this on the first page 7th post down.
The key is verse “18” of Mattew 28.
All authority and power is given to Jesus. Jesus name is a name above every name by which and only by that name are men saved.
Hebrew names also carry within the nature of the person.
Jesus said baptise in the “Name” singular of the three.
All fullness of the deity is in Jesus. The apostles understood this revelation that the three were “One” and that the name of Jesus carried within it all the fullness of the Father, Son and the Holy Spirit.
Now how do you explain your apparant contradiction in the scriptures? Or will you like the others deny that it is scripture and Jesus very own words, and if so where is your proof?
WJ
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