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WJ,
You quoted:
It has been claimed that Eusebius of Caesarea, c. 263–339 had an original copy of Matthew which did not contain the verse. However there is no such evidence and can only be considered as a fabrication made by the ATs. It would also contradict the fact that Eusebius was a prominent figure at the Council of Nicene. Not to mention his own confession in his personal Letter to the Church of Cesarea…We believe in One God, the Father Almighty, the Maker of all things visible and invisible. And in One Lord Jesus Christ, the Word of God, God from God, Light from Light, Life from Life, Son Only-begotten, first-born of every creature, before all the ages, begotten from the Father, by whom also all things were made; who for our salvation was made flesh, and lived among men, and suffered, and rose again the third day, and ascended to the Father, and will come again in glory to judge quick and dead, And we believe also in One Holy Ghost; believing each of These to be and to exist, the Father truly Father, and the Son truly Son, and the Holy Ghost truly Holy Ghost, as also our Lord, sending forth His disciples for the preaching, said, “Go, teach all nations, baptizing them in the Name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.” Concerning whom we confidently affirm that so we hold, and so we think, and so we have held aforetime, and we maintain this faith unto the death, anathematizing every godless heresy. That this we have ever thought from our heart and soul, from the time we recollect ourselves, and now think and say in truth, before God Almighty and our Lord Jesus Christ do we witness, being able by proofs to show and to convince you, that, even in times past, such has been our belief and preaching.
So many points to make.
1. There is one God, and He is the Father only.
2. He is Almighty, which means there is none as high or higher.
3. I bet that first “only begotten” is the word “monogenes”, and the second “begotten” is “genao”. Are you sure the “only begotten” meaning was gone by the time of the NT?
4. He is God FROM God. Does the Almighty come FROM another God?
5. The last part I bolded clearly states that God Almighty and the Lord Jesus Christ are two separate entities, and only one of them is God.peace and love,
mikeTo all,
This is amazing JuJu.
Page 1: 14th paragraph…
Jesus is said to have been born…before the ages. Can a True God be 'Born'?
What is God? One single Supreme entity that is the highest of all entities, the container and source of all powers and authorities, the owner of such, the one in whom all is all.
How then can one born from such ALSO be 'God' by definition, as that one born from God is 'Within' the God and cannot be therefore the container of all things neither the source of all powers and authorities.
However, that one born of God and, once given 'all powers and authorities' by the owner of such, can wield such powers and authorities in the name of that one that gave him the powers and authorities for as long as required to carry out whatever task he was assigned to carry out using those powers and authorities, and while he is dutifully carrying out that task in all truth.
If that one fails to be faithful in truth, and when the assignment is complete, the powers and authorities are handed back to it's owner.
At no time is the 'assignee holder' of the powers and authorities ever made 'owner' of said powers and authorities.“We witness” only before “God Almighty and the Lord Jesus Christ”
So where did the Holy Spirit go, perhaps it got…, er, oh Lord help me resist the pun…!
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 01 2010,18:30) Quote (Ed J @ May 01 2010,18:19) Hi WJ, What is The “HolySpirit's” Name then?
ED
Page one 6th post down!
WJ
Hi WJ,HA Ha ha, ha Ha Ha ha; glad to see you got a sense of humor!
God bless
Ed J
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgPeople,
In the name of WorshippingJesus, and of The Thinker and of WJ's Spirit, please respect the topic of this thread, for TT's sake.
WJ, is trying to muster support against me.
Please post your honest responses.
Quote (JustAskin @ May 01 2010,18:34) To all, How better to put it:
“There is One God, who is the Father”
“There is One Lord, who is Jesus Christ, subordinate to the Father”
“There is One Spirit, who is the Holy, the only Righteous Spirit, the Spirit of Truth, the Holy Spirit of God, The Fathers Holy Spirit”“And these three agree as ONE, in purpose”
“And anyone, of man, who also agrees with these three, who these three are agreeable with, will also become ONE with these three(Rev.21:7).
They will all be ONE, in purpose, to the glory of God, the Father, who is God , above All”
Hi JustAskin,A paradox is a “Greek” concept!
I can clearly see that you (JustAskin) seek agreement with WJ (You are beginning to illustrate the bridge)!
Have you ever heard of a paradox? Both “Jesus Christ”=151 and The “HolySpirit”=151 exist as a paradox.
You are working on explaining “The LORD JAHOVAH”=151(Our one YHVH=151), The “LORD of Hosts”=151.
You are forgetting to mention (which WJ is quick to point out) how The “HolySpirit” is subordinate to Jesus.Here is the descriptions Jesus gives concerning this paradox concept, which is a real “Bible Truth”!
Luke 13:30: And, behold, there are last which shall be first, and there are first which shall be last.Mark 9:35 And he sat down, and called the twelve, [Jesus] saith unto them [all],
if any man desire to be first, the same shall be last of all, and servant of all.A paradox means by downing, you are somehow upping(bad English).
Luke 9:23 And he said to them all, If any man will come after me,
let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.
Luke 17:33 Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it;
and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.You now see (John 9:39) the proper response is…
“MOVE OVER I'M STEPPING DOWN!
The Kingdom's GOD=151God bless you (JustAskin), my brother in Christ!
Witnessing to the world in behalf of YHVH (Psalm 45:17)
117=יהוה האלהים(JEHOVAH GOD) YÄ-hä-vā hä ĔL-ō-Hêêm!
Ed J (AKJV Joshua 22:34 / Isaiah 60:13-15)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgEdj,
Not sure what ya saying to me but I kinda agree.I wrote a load which included the 'subservient' element…I was laughing so much that I clicked a button that took mr out of edit mode (you may have read that I am writing from my mobile phone. Moving from one 'page' to another wipes out the content of the previous page.)
I came back ti reEdit the page and got carried away with what you see. In fact, it was that 'revelation' that prompted me to be posting in the first place.It is not the first time it has been said but since it was said in adebate thread I respected the parties and did not intervene, relying on the 'other' party to pick up on it.
Ps. Who added the Rev 21:7 to the quote. If need be then you must add a postmark stating it was added by you otherwise it will, good or BAD, be claimed that I wrote it and later on when someone else copies it and so on down the line, just like all them misrenderings in the Scriptures.
Quote (JustAskin @ May 01 2010,23:20) Edj,
Not sure what ya saying to me but I kinda agree.I wrote a load which included the 'subservient' element…I was laughing so much that I clicked a button that took mr out of edit mode (you may have read that I am writing from my mobile phone. Moving from one 'page' to another wipes out the content of the previous page.)
I came back ti reEdit the page and got carried away with what you see. In fact, it was that 'revelation' that prompted me to be posting in the first place.It is not the first time it has been said but since it was said in adebate thread I respected the parties and did not intervene, relying on the 'other' party to pick up on it.
Ps. Who added the Rev 21:7 to the quote. If need be then you must add a postmark stating it was added by you otherwise it will, good or BAD, be claimed that I wrote it and later on when someone else copies it and so on down the line, just like all them misrenderings in the Scriptures.
Hi KustAskin,Spiritual matters are extremely difficult to put into words.
I know you're starting to get past the language barriers.
I put the verse in, I will watch how you tag it and learn!God Bless
Ed JMany historians and Bible scholars agree that the Trinity of Christianity owes more to Greek philosophy and pagan polytheism than to the monotheism of the Jew and the Jewish Jesus.
A more recent Egyptologist, Erick Hornung, refutes the original monotheism of Egypt: ‘[Monotheism is] a phenomenon restricted to the wisdom texts,’ which were written between 2600 and 2530 BC (50-51); but there is no question that ancient man believed in ‘one infinite and Almighty Creator, supreme over all’ (Hislop 14); and in a multitude of gods at a later point. Nor is there any doubt that the most common grouping of gods was a triad.
The historian S. H. Hooke tells in detail of the ancient Sumerian trinity: Anu was the primary god of heaven, the ‘Father’, and the ‘King of the Gods’; Enlil, the ‘wind-god’ was the god of the earth, and a creator god; and Enki was the god of waters and the ‘lord of wisdom’ (15-18). The historian, H. W. F. Saggs, explains that the Babylonian triad consisted of ‘three gods of roughly equal rank… whose inter-relationship is of the essence of their natures’
We can conclude without much difficulty that the concept of the Trinity did not come from Judaism. Nor did Jesus speak of a trinity. The message of Jesus was of the coming kingdom; it was a message of love and forgiveness. As for his relationship with the Father, Jesus said, ‘… I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me’,{# Joh 5:30} and in another place ‘my doctrine is not mine, but His that sent me’;{# Joh 7:16} and his words ‘my Father is greater than I’ {#Joh 14:28} leave no doubt as to their relationship.
In stark contrast, is the simple oneness of the Hebrew God. Jesus was a Jew from the tribe of Judah. He claimed to be sent to the ‘lost sheep of the house of Israel’.{# Mt 15:24} His apostles were all Jews. His god was the Jewish God. He called himself the Son of God and acknowledged his role as the Christ, {#Mt 16:15-17} and the Messiah. {#Joh 4:25-26} His message was one of love, righteousness, and salvation, and he despised the religious dogma of tradition.
What a contrast from the proceedings of the Council of Nicea and the murders that followed! He gave the good news of his coming kingdom to the poor and meek: the lowly of this world. He did not require dogmatic creeds that had to be believed to the word, but rather said, ‘Follow me’.{# Mt 9:9}
There can be no doubt: Jesus was a stranger to all sides of the political proceedings in Nicea. He never claimed to be God, but was content to be God’s son. His creed was not of words that must be followed to the letter, but rather of spirit: ‘Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God’.{# Mt 4:8} He did not require wealthy and learned bishops to mingle philosophy and pagan polytheism with his simple truth, but blessed the ‘poor’ and the ‘meek’.{# Mt 4:1-12} No, it was not from Jesus that the dogma of the Trinity came.
Is this positive proof that the Trinity owes it origins to paganism and philosophy? The evidences of history leave little doubt. The concept of the Trinity finds its roots in Pagan theology and Greek philosophy: it is a stranger to the Jewish Jesus and the Hebrew people from which he sprang.
(excerpts from: The Origin of the Trinity: From Paganism to Constantine
by Cher-El L. Hagensick)Edj,
Why do you say 'paradox', what paradox.
There is no paradox, where do you see a paradox? In the numbers?
Jesus is a person with a spirit.
The Holy Spirit is God's Spirit. The very title says it loud and clear: “The Holy Spirit of God”. It does not say, “The Holy Spirit of the Godhead” nor “The Holy Spirit of Jesus”
And, if the Holy Spirit is God then factor “The Godhead that is the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, is the Holy Spirit because the Holy Spirit, who is God, is the God of the Trinity Godhead and is one of the co-equal persons in the trinity godhead but is subservient to the father and the son, who themselves are, at one and the same time, that same God that is the Holy Spirit but is superior to it but yet co-equal at that one and same time…according to trinitarian doctrine.In computer programming, this is called 'Recursion' and is a very easy concept to devise and implement but is very dangerous when done so badly, causing a complete lock up of the memory of the system. The trinity doctrine is recursive with no 'fail' point:
The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God.and God is the Father, Son and 'the Holy Spirit who is the Spirit of God and God is the Father, Son and 'Holy Spirit who is….' ' 'Not at any time has this been my view, nor ever will that change.
The Hebrews understood that the Holy Spirit is Of God. Were they tempted to worship the Holy Spirit, it was clearly spoken about.
Even Pharoah acknowledged it(Gen 41:38)
So, noone but trinitarians and presbytarians pentecostals, believe that 'IT' is a person.But wait, WJ refuses to acknowledge that he worships that 'person', in fact, he does not even state that he worships Jesus (Making a name from it is not an admission of the act!)
He recognises that this is not right and is clever enough to put a false face on (his forum name) to make appearance.I know him, I became him, there is nothing he can hide that cannot be revealed about him. This why he patently fails to defeat me at any time. Defeating me means defeating himself. I am a catalyst, so it does not change me. What is a catalyst?
In this topic he is seeking support because he cannot, ney, refuses to accept his complete and utter defeat. Well, he defeats himself again, here, again.
Ed, you just called JustAskin – KustAskin lol.
Oh sorry this thread looks like its about the Trinity, trinity beliefs are too confusing to even read about, I usually avoid these threads… things are confusing enough as it is?
Even my child can understand There is God, then there is His Son… Never mind.Hi Kar,
Some typo's are not typo's…I use it at times. I, mistakenly typed 'Falken' in refering to WJ as a mighty bird whose wing have been clipped, then thought, hey, why changed it to 'fallen', both ideas are conveyed in the same 'word'.I don't mind the error, perhaps Edj is right. I won't be getting on 'edge' about it!
Quote (JustAskin @ May 02 2010,00:00) Edj, Why do you say 'paradox', what paradox.
There is no paradox, where do you see a paradox? In the numbers?
Jesus is a person with a spirit.
The Holy Spirit is God's Spirit. The very title says it loud and clear: “The Holy Spirit of God”. It does not say, “The Holy Spirit of the Godhead” nor “The Holy Spirit of Jesus”
And, if the Holy Spirit is God then factor “The Godhead that is the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, is the Holy Spirit because the Holy Spirit, who is God, is the God of the Trinity Godhead and is one of the co-equal persons in the trinity godhead but is subservient to the father and the son, who themselves are, at one and the same time, that same God that is the Holy Spirit but is superior to it but yet co-equal at that one and same time…according to trinitarian doctrine.In computer programming, this is called 'Recursion' and is a very easy concept to devise and implement but is very dangerous when done so badly, causing a complete lock up of the memory of the system. The trinity doctrine is recursive with no 'fail' point:
The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God.and God is the Father, Son and 'the Holy Spirit who is the Spirit of God and God is the Father, Son and 'Holy Spirit who is….' ' 'Not at any time has this been my view, nor ever will that change.
The Hebrews understood that the Holy Spirit is Of God. Were they tempted to worship the Holy Spirit, it was clearly spoken about.
Even Pharoah acknowledged it(Gen 41:38)
So, noone but trinitarians and presbytarians pentecostals, believe that 'IT' is a person.But wait, WJ refuses to acknowledge that he worships that 'person', in fact, he does not even state that he worships Jesus (Making a name from it is not an admission of the act!)
He recognises that this is not right and is clever enough to put a false face on (his forum name) to make appearance.I know him, I became him, there is nothing he can hide that cannot be revealed about him. This why he patently fails to defeat me at any time. Defeating me means defeating himself. I am a catalyst, so it does not change me. What is a catalyst?
In this topic he is seeking support because he cannot, ney, refuses to accept his complete and utter defeat. Well, he defeats himself again, here, again.
Hi JustAskin,I have been called a catalyst many times too.
Did I upset you in any way? If I did I didn't mean to.
What you Posted here now seems garbled and incoherent.Ed J
Hi Ja
Me and Ed dont have editing rights, scary sometimes to think that when the button is pushed, thats it.
goodnite all. (oh- your morning I think).
Kar,
The topic is not Trinity as such.It is about WJ being able to understand simple concepts and being humble enough to concede a defeat.
He regards himself as a God and calmly, like a false light caused by rising methane in a swamp, or a Will-of-the-Wisp at mating time 'misleading lost wanderers, according to fairytale', presents misleading concepts couched in 'proof text' that is so tortuous in concept that his listening audience simply assume he must understand and it is them that are failing to understand due to lack of faith.
Unfortunately, for him, when his ideaolgy is written down, it doesn't come across so appetising, and, in fact, the flaws are exposed.
Quote (JustAskin @ May 02 2010,00:13) Hi Kar, Some typo's are not typo's…I use it at times. I, mistakenly typed 'Falken' in refering to WJ as a mighty bird whose wing have been clipped, then thought, hey, why changed it to 'fallen', both ideas are conveyed in the same 'word'.
I don't mind the error, perhaps Edj is right. I won't be getting on 'edge' about it!
First you agreed with me and then you disagreed.
A “Paradox” is to agree and disagree at the same time.God bless
Ed J
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
Hi JustAskin,Sorry for the typo.
I didn't even see it until I seen Karmarie's Post.
I pluck relatively fast with only my index fingers,
as you can see the “K” and the “J” are right next to each other.A Paradox is a Greek concept (The New “Testament”=117 was written in Greek)
That's the reason you fight about Jesus (The Trinity=148)!
Jesus was “The Passover”=148 and the Hebrew word is פסח]=148] peh-sakh.God bless
Ed J
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgHey Edj, I just looked back at page 4; I did post about 'the subservient Holy Spirit'
Why did you post to me claiming I'd missed the chance to show it…whatever…?
Edj,
You just did it again.
You cannot (read 'should not') quote someone and at the same time edit the quote…unless you reference the edited part.
Use this to place a line under the quote or better, don't add to a quote…
Code Sample <hr/> Quote (JustAskin @ May 02 2010,00:36) Hey Edj, I just looked back at page 4; I did post about 'the subservient Holy Spirit' Why did you post to me claiming I'd missed the chance to show it…whatever…?
Hi JustAskin,I went back and looked again and still don't see it?
All I see is (similar) is the wording “above all” referencing “The Father”?
Do you mean a different Post from the one I quoted? Could you Re-Post the part your referencing.God bless
Ed J
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgEdj,
You are mistaking me for someone else.
I have no paradoxical problem concerning Jesus.
How do you find that in my posts. That, is your paradox!In any case, I'm trying to give space for people to criticize my post to WJ concerning the topic of this thread.
Post about that.
I want to hear my critics. I want WJ to have every chance to call me out.
Post about that, if, indeed, there is anything to post against me, and then, if not, then post against WJ.
That is the point of this thread.
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