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KJ,
And Jesus said,'Iam ascending to My Father and your Father, and to My God and your God', John 20:17.
Jesus sat down on his Father's throne…throne is not a physical item so translate: Jesus was placed in a position IN his Father's Power and Authority. God remains 'reigning' even over His Son, as he 'reigns' over heavenly and mortal powers. He who 'reigns' is 'King' over that which he reigns.
Yes, my human Father is my familial King. Please don't get carried away with the overarching use of the term 'King'. It simply means,'he who is in place of authority', 'head of a group or organisation'…therefore, even as an 'investitured son' my Father is still 'head' over me..how can it be otherwise?
KJ, draw your family tree…is your father not 'head' over you on that chart, on that family tree? No?…so you got family problems…don't draw other people's relationship into question because yours is broken. No wonder you seek power…I'm sorry, I was guessing before, you really are hurting….maybe I will go easier on you, understand your lack of family nurture, sympathise, yes, but I cannot, happily however, empathise.
KJ……….JA, is right in this, GOD the FATHER is the Head over Jesus who is the Head over Us. Jesus plainly said the Father was Greater then He was. Come out of those false TRINITARIAN teachings, why should you remain in confusion when you don't have to?
peace and love to you and yours…………….gene
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ May 29 2010,23:40) KJ……….JA, is right in this, GOD the FATHER is the Head over Jesus who is the Head over Us. Jesus plainly said the Father was Greater then He was. Come out of those false TRINITARIAN teachings, why should you remain in confusion when you don't have to? peace and love to you and yours…………….gene
Gene,Here we go again. The Father was greater than Jesus when He was in the flesh. Jesus is not in the flesh now. At the right hand of the Father Jesus is God:
1 The LORD says to my Lord:
“Sit at my right hand
until I make your enemies
a footstool for your feet.”
2 The LORD will extend your mighty scepter from Zion;
you will rule in the midst of your enemies.3 Your troops will be willing
on your day of battle.
Arrayed in holy majesty,
from the womb of the dawn
you will receive the dew of your youth. [a]4 The LORD has sworn
and will not change his mind:
“You are a priest forever,
in the order of Melchizedek.”5 My Adonay (God) is at your right hand;
he will crush kings on the day of his wrathKing David acknowledged that the exalted Messiah was His “Adonay”, that is, His God. He said to Jehovah “My ADONAY is at your right hand.” The word “Adonay” ALWAYS refers to God.
Read it and weep Gene.
Kangaroo Jack
Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ May 29 2010,11:51) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ May 29 2010,23:40) KJ……….JA, is right in this, GOD the FATHER is the Head over Jesus who is the Head over Us. Jesus plainly said the Father was Greater then He was. Come out of those false TRINITARIAN teachings, why should you remain in confusion when you don't have to? peace and love to you and yours…………….gene
Gene,Here we go again. The Father was greater than Jesus when He was in the flesh. Jesus is not in the flesh now. At the right hand of the Father Jesus is God:
1 The LORD says to my Lord:
“Sit at my right hand
until I make your enemies
a footstool for your feet.”
2 The LORD will extend your mighty scepter from Zion;
you will rule in the midst of your enemies.3 Your troops will be willing
on your day of battle.
Arrayed in holy majesty,
from the womb of the dawn
you will receive the dew of your youth. [a]4 The LORD has sworn
and will not change his mind:
“You are a priest forever,
in the order of Melchizedek.”5 My Adonay (God) is at your right hand;
he will crush kings on the day of his wrathDavid acknowledged that the exalted Messiah was His “Adonay”, that is, His God. He said to Jehovah “My ADONAY is at your right hand.” The word “Adonay” ALWAYS refers to God Gene.
Read it and weep Gene.
Kangaroo Jack
JackThomas understood what David did. He also called Jesus his Lord and his God.
Many say Jesus is “a god” but yet they do not call him their God like David and Thomas! Maybe they are smoking something?
WJ
WJ,
Because 'a god' is not 'The God', and we must only worship 'The God'.
S'not hard to understand.
Only one with a strong delusion cannot understand that simple term.
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 30 2010,03:55) Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ May 29 2010,11:51) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ May 29 2010,23:40) KJ……….JA, is right in this, GOD the FATHER is the Head over Jesus who is the Head over Us. Jesus plainly said the Father was Greater then He was. Come out of those false TRINITARIAN teachings, why should you remain in confusion when you don't have to? peace and love to you and yours…………….gene
Gene,Here we go again. The Father was greater than Jesus when He was in the flesh. Jesus is not in the flesh now. At the right hand of the Father Jesus is God:
1 The LORD says to my Lord:
“Sit at my right hand
until I make your enemies
a footstool for your feet.”
2 The LORD will extend your mighty scepter from Zion;
you will rule in the midst of your enemies.3 Your troops will be willing
on your day of battle.
Arrayed in holy majesty,
from the womb of the dawn
you will receive the dew of your youth. [a]4 The LORD has sworn
and will not change his mind:
“You are a priest forever,
in the order of Melchizedek.”5 My Adonay (God) is at your right hand;
he will crush kings on the day of his wrathDavid acknowledged that the exalted Messiah was His “Adonay”, that is, His God. He said to Jehovah “My ADONAY is at your right hand.” The word “Adonay” ALWAYS refers to God Gene.
Read it and weep Gene.
Kangaroo Jack
JackThomas understood what David did. He also called Jesus his Lord and his God.
Many say Jesus is “a god” but yet they do not call him their God like David and Thomas! Maybe they are smoking something?
WJ
Keith,Though I am addressing you I am instructing our opponents. The word “Adonay” ALWAYS refers to God. Strong's Concordance, the TWOT and Young's Analytical Concordance all agree that Adonay always refers to God.
Mikeboll once tried to explain this away by the fact that the word adonay is from adon which often refers to men. Thus Mike erroneously concludes that adonay also may refer to men. But this is not true at all!
The TWOT says this about Adonay:
“When adon appears in the special plural form, with a first common singular pronominal suffix (adonay), IT ALWAYS REFERS TO GOD“, TWOT p. 13 (all emphasis mine)
In Psalm 110:5 David CLEARLY said, “My Adonay (God) is at your right hand.
Therefore, the Messiah who was David's “adon” (master) according to verse 1 was also his “adonay” (God) according to verse 5.
So it is written.
Jack
Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ May 30 2010,03:51) Gene wrote:KJ……….JA, is ri
Here we go again. The Father was greater than Jesus when He was in the flesh. Jesus is not in the flesh now. At the right hand of the Father Jesus is God:
KJ……….O REALLY….What do you do with this. After Jesus was resurected this is what (HE) said Not me, ” A SPIRIT DOES (NOT) HAVE FLESH AND BONE AS YOU SEE (I) HAVE. So where does scripture say this transformation took place KJ. Please use scripture not Trinitarian conjecture. Where does it say Jesus Now has a “SPIRIT” BODY of some-kind, seeing Jesus said you can not see spirit it is like the wind, is Jesus the wind now KJ> The only Spirit (BEING) is GOD HIMSELF and NO OTHER. And He can live vicariously (IN) his creation by that spirit, as He did Jesus and who ever (IT) dwells in. Produce Scripture KJ and stop forcing the text to meet you trinitarian dogmas.peace and love to you and yours…………………….gene
Quote (JustAskin @ May 30 2010,04:29) WJ, Because 'a god' is not 'The God', and we must only worship 'The God'.
S'not hard to understand.
Only one with a strong delusion cannot understand that simple term.
JA………..Amen brother.peace and love to you and yours………………..gene
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ May 30 2010,05:07) Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ May 30 2010,03:51) Gene wrote:KJ……….JA, is ri
Here we go again. The Father was greater than Jesus when He was in the flesh. Jesus is not in the flesh now. At the right hand of the Father Jesus is God:
KJ……….O REALLY….What do you do with this. After Jesus was resurected this is what (HE) said Not me, ” A SPIRIT DOES (NOT) HAVE FLESH AND BONE AS YOU SEE (I) HAVE. So where does scripture say this transformation took place KJ. Please use scripture not Trinitarian conjecture. Where does it say Jesus Now has a “SPIRIT” BODY of some-kind, seeing Jesus said you can not see spirit it is like the wind, is Jesus the wind now KJ> The only Spirit (BEING) is GOD HIMSELF and NO OTHER. And He can live vicariously (IN) his creation by that spirit, as He did Jesus and who ever (IT) dwells in. Produce Scripture KJ and stop forcing the text to meet you trinitarian dogmas.peace and love to you and yours…………………….gene
Goo goo ga ga! Jesus PLAINLY said after His resurrection that “ALL power and authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth“.ALL power and authority means exactly what it says. Again I say “goo goo ga ga” to your speech Gene.
Kangaroo Jack
KJ……….Good way to avoid the clear truth, divert attention by acting stupid. Seem you and WJ as well as other Trinitarians are very good at doing that. Skit the real issues does seem to be your modus operandi. Like they say you can't corner a snake in a brier patch right?
The sad part here KJ is your only hurting you own self. My GOD remove the blinders from your eyes brother.
peace and love to you and yours…………………..gene
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ May 30 2010,05:38) KJ……….Good way to avoid the clear truth, divert attention by acting stupid. Seem you and WJ as well as other Trinitarians are very good at doing that. Skit the real issues does seem to be your modus operandi. Like they say you can't corner a snake in a brier patch right? The sad part here KJ is your only hurting you own self. My GOD remove the blinders from your eyes brother.
peace and love to you and yours…………………..gene
Gene,I gave a clear discussion today. I noticed you have not replied to it. Here it is again:
Keith,
Though I am addressing you I am instructing our opponents. The word “Adonay” ALWAYS refers to God. Strong's Concordance, the TWOT and Young's Analytical Concordance all agree that Adonay always refers to God.
Mikeboll once tried to explain this away by the fact that the word adonay is from adon which often refers to men. Thus Mike erroneously concludes that adonay also may refer to men. But this is not true at all!
The TWOT says this about Adonay:
“When adon appears in the special plural form, with a first common singular pronominal suffix (adonay), IT ALWAYS REFERS TO GOD“, TWOT p. 13 (all emphasis mine)
In Psalm 110:5 David CLEARLY said, “My Adonay (God) is at your right hand.
Therefore, the Messiah who was David's “adon” (master) according to verse 1 was also his “adonay” (God) according to verse 5.
King David called Messiah His Adonay (God) Gene! Do you bother to answer this? NO! You just utter a mouth full of goo goo ga ga. Nobody here buys your “intellect” goo goo ga ga Gene! So go peddle it to those who don't know any better.
Kangaroo Jack
Always straining at a gnat, all of you…
What is hard to understand about Psalm 110:5?
The scripture clearly says,'The Lord is at your right hand'
There is nothing hard or even remotely strange here. “Lord” is ANY person who has any element of Power and Authority, as Jesus will be given. A King, Judge, Nobleman, in Britain a Peer of the Realm is a 'Lord'…'
The title, 'Lord' must be read in context , with reference to the specific person being addressed by that title.
God is addressed with the Title 'Lord' in Psalm 89:49 & 50 but otherwise by his Name, rendered, confusingly, as 'LORD'.
David clearly calls the LORD 'his God' in Psalms 86:2, so how could he be calling another, 'God'? And verse 10:,'You alone are God'.
When David say, 'The LORD said to My Lord,…' in Psalm 110:1, he is addressing himself as 'Lord', 'my Lord', 'YHVH said to me,…' and verse 5 is also refering to David and the deeds he would perform. In fact, does Scripture not tell of him drinking from the brook, refreshing himself after a long battle. And did he not execute many kings amongs his enemies in the nations. All this is true of David and equally true of Christ.
Where else is the title 'Lord' used in Psalms?
How could Jesus be David's 'Master' when David, nor anyone at that time knew Jesus. They only knew 'of' the Messiah to come.
Quote (JustAskin @ May 29 2010,12:29) WJ, Because 'a god' is not 'The God', and we must only worship 'The God'.
This is only partly true. Because the Bible says we are not to even “serve them”, yet we see men in the Bible dying for Jesus and serving him with absolute unreserved devotion.Why didn't the Apostles ever mention not to give to much attention or devotion to Jesus?
Paul puts it well in a post he made in the “Jesus sent” thread…
Quote (Is 1:18 @ May 27 2010,19:16)
Amen brother. And of course the NT writer's did not hold back in their exaltation of Yeshua either. The highest possible statements are made of Him. As an aside – it's interesting to me that readers are NEVER cautioned by NT authors about taking their adulation of Yeshua too far? Not once are we told to be wary of extolling Him to too high a plateau, or breaking the first two commandments in our relationship with Yeshua. How curious.Either Jesus is God, One with the Father and the Holy Spirit or there are many professing believers that serve more than One master!
WJ
WJ,
Has this not be done to Jesus' death before between you and me?
If Jesus is God and was, in fact, worshipped, as you claim then there are two major problems:
1) Why did the Jews and Pharasees not call out for blasphemy. They clearly believed in ONE God and disputed that Jesus, this MAN from a nondescript little town of Nazareth, whom they knew was 'Joseph, the Carpenter's son', could possibly the long awaited Messiah, let alone 'God Amighty, himself'.
2) If Jesus is God, then how could he 'die' and if he didn't die then there has been not sacrifice and if no sacrifice, then no salvation and if no salvation then we are still in sin and if still in sin then God has lied, and that is impossible.
Further to your initial sentence: there is nothing in what I said that warranted that response. But uf you are sonehow agreeing then let it stand.
The word used for 'Worship' us equally applicable as 'Obeisence' and by this usage noone would have batted an eyelid, as it turned out is exactly what happened.
Hi Mike
Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 27 2010,21:27) Wow Keith, You can't answer one simple question in our debate that I've been waiting on, but you have time to write a book here?
First of all unlike you I respond to all of your points, but you pick and choose what you want and avoid the rest. That’s fine, but let it be known by all that Mike should never bring up that I didn’t respond to his points or questions again.Once again let me reiterate something here, I will respond to post on this board when I choose and not when you expect me to. I am not obligated to answer any post in any given time. One reason for this is I only answer post when I feel the unction to respond because I give prayerful thought about my response!
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 27 2010,16:17)
That is your opinion yet you cannot answer the questions I have presented to you to show what attributes the Father has that Jesus and the Holy Spirit does not have!Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 27 2010,21:27) I have answered you. I gave you five of them, but you played word games about the definition of “attributes” instead of answering to the major differences I listed. 1. The Father is from everlasting to everlasting.
There is no scripture that unambiguously says Jesus the Word that was with God and was God had a beginning! Jesus has always been with the Father! In fact scriptures tell us “Nothing came into being” without Jesus in John 1:3, but words like “Nothing” do not mean anything to you because you say Jesus the Word that was with God and was God who is something came into being!Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 27 2010,21:27) 2. The Father can do anything and speak anything he wants to.
This is not an “Attribute” mike, this is a role or function of the Father. Even so the Father never speaks with out Jesus “The Word” and the Holy Spirit! So Jesus always speaks what he wants because his words are the Words of God!Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 27 2010,21:27) 3. The Father isn't taught by anyone.
This is not an attribute Mike!
Never the less, Jesus was only taught in the days of his flesh when he had emptied himself to come in the likeness of sinful flesh. But you have no scriptures that say Jesus was taught in the beginning or now, and you surely have no scripture showing the Holy Spirit being taught!Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 27 2010,21:27) 4. The Father doesn't only speak what he hears.
Again this is not an attribute Mike.
But you are admitting then that the Holy Spirit is in perfect harmony with the Father and Jesus, because the Holy Spirit hears from Jesus and gives to us. This is a function or role of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit but has nothing to do with the nature or ontology of the three.Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 27 2010,21:27) 5. The Father is the only true God.
I agree. But again this is not an attribute Mike. I am talking about attributes “of” God Mike not titles!Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 27 2010,21:27) 6. The Father isn't “OF” God.
Again this is not an attribute Mike. But even so if I say “Spirit of Man” am I not talking about man? God is a Spirit, so the Spirit of God is God, right?Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 27 2010,21:27) If you are so sure that Jesus and the Holy Spirit are equal God, then don't play word games about “attribute”. I'm showing you real differences between the Father and Jesus and the Holy Spirit. Deal with them, I have many more.
I have but you have only shown “One” attribute above that the Father is eternal and you have a few unambiguous scriptures that you think implies Jesus isn’t eternal, and you sure have nothing that says the Holy Spirit is not eternal!Trinitarians are not saying that the Father, Jesus and the Holy Spirit do not have different roles Mike. You are the one creating this diversion. We believe the nature of the three including their attributes are the same. Just as you and your Father as humans are the same.
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 27 2010,16:17)
And where is your one plain scripture that specifically says Jesus and the Holy Spirit is not “Theos” aka God?Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 27 2010,21:27) Okay, so you can't find the scripture I asked for. Good, because there isn't one. On the other hand, I have many scriptures that say both Jesus and the Holy Spirit are “OF” God. You can't BE God and be OF God, can you?
Yep, because God is a Spirit which means that the Holy Spirit of God is God. Jesus is the Son of God because he came in the flesh, but the Bible also says that the Spirit of Christ is the Spirit of God! We have received only “One Spirit” the Spirit of God, the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of the Father, The Spirit of the Son. The Spirit is the very essence of what God is! One Spirit One God and three persons! Your confusion is you think the title God identifies only the Father as a person when referring to the “Only True God”.But the title God like the title man doesn’t identify the God or the man! God is in a metaphysical class of his own.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 12 2010,21:56) One last point: You mentioned to Marty that the Holy Spirit had power and authority. Where does Scripture say that the Holy Spirit has authority over anything? Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 27 2010,16:17) But now once again you are changing your statement to “…that any time you read about THE HOLY SPIRIT HAVING ANY KIND OF AUTHORITY remember that means God's authority is being enforced THROUGH His Holy Spirit ” Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 27 2010,21:27) I didn't know I would have to spell things out like you were a third grader every time, Keith. Now I know.
So what’s with the “ad hominem” Mike? Do you feel better calling me a third grader. I understand you must be frustrated at the truth, but you can do without the “ad hominems”.Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 27 2010,21:27) The Holy Spirit in and of itself has NO authority.
No that’s not what you said Mike! This is what you said…Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 12 2010,21:56) One last point: You mentioned to Marty that the Holy Spirit had power and authority. Where does Scripture say that “the Holy Spirit has authority over anything?
See the bold part? That contradicts what you are now saying. I gave you scriptures like…- As they ministered to the Lord, and fasted, “**THE HOLY GHOST SAID**, Separate me Barnabas and Saul for the work WHEREUNTO **I HAVE CALLED THEM**. And when they had fasted and prayed, and laid [their] hands on them, they sent [them] away. So they, being “**SENT FORTH BY THE HOLY GHOST**”, departed unto Seleucia; and from thence they sailed to Cyprus. Acts 13:2, 4
- Now when they had gone throughout Phrygia and the region of Galatia, “and were **FORBIDDEN OF THE HOLY GHOST** to preach the word in Asia”, After they were come to Mysia, they assayed to go into Bithynia: but **THE SPIRIT SUFFERED THEM NOT**. Acts 16:6, 7
So you start a new dance by putting more spin to try and change what you said.
The Spirit had authority over Paul here. Why doesn’t the writer mention the Father or Jesus?
Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 27 2010,21:27) The Spirit is OF God, therefore part OF God.! If God's “mouth” told you to do something, the mouth itself is not a person in a godhead. The mouth in and of itself has NO authority. Like the Spirit, it can only speak “what it hears”. No, that doesn't mean the mouth has ears or is a person, WJ. It is a poetic way of saying that when God's mouth speaks, it is God speaking THROUGH His mouth.
If the scriptures said the Holy Spirit was only Gods mouth piece you might have a point but they don’t do they Mike? The scriptures show that the Holy Spirit is included in the divine mandate sharing the same name or authority with the Father and Jesus with his own identity. The scriptures show that not only can the Holy Spirit hear and speak but he can receive, teach, comfort, give power, Love, rebuke, restrain, be grieved, Etc, which are words that only apply to a living being! So continue to stick your head in the sand if you like!Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 27 2010,16:17) but Mike says he [Christ] doesn’t reign now or have any real authority or power of his own because it was given to him by the Father! Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 27 2010,21:27) Now on the flip side of Heb 10 we have this scripture, 1 Corinthians 15:25 NIV
For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet.Sure sounds like Christ reigns now. So one scripture says he “waits” for enemies to be lowered, and the other says he reigns until his enemies are lowered. Who does he reign over? How can he reign over enemies that he hasn't even subdued yet? It is confusing for me right now. The more I learn and am guided by God's Spirit, the more I will understand.
Yes a whole lot of your theology is confusing and it is because you are making it up as you go along! I don’t understand your confusion. All it means when it says Jesus is waiting is for the time. Jesus reigns and will subdue all things to himself in his time though he has authority and power over them now. Simple really!Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 27 2010,21:27) And was Jesus' power and authority given to him? And is he still a servant of his God? God owns everything everybody has.
Look around Mike because Jesus owns it all too!Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 27 2010,16:17) Your logic says a Police officer who is given the authority and power to execute the law really doesn’t have any authority or power. Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 27 2010,21:27) I never said Jesus “doesn't have any authority or power” did I? I said that Jesus has exactly the amount of power and authority his God Jehovah has given him. Just like the cop has exactly the amount that his commanding officer gives him. It does not make the cop equal to or the same being as his commanding officer, does it? No, and it doesn't even mean the cop has an equal amount of authority, does it?
But I wasn’t speaking of Jesus was I? You are changing the subject and spinning again.Jesus gives to the Holy Spirit who gives to us, so the Holy Spirit has authority over us!
Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 27 2010,21:27) Think about this, WJ. Jesus has been g
iven power and authority to do what? His will? Or is it his God's will?
Both for they are one!Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 27 2010,16:17)
So if the Holy Spirit is not a person then how do you explain this verse?”NOW THE LORD IS THAT SPIRIT”: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. 1 Cor 3:17
Notice Paul is calling the Spirit, Lord! How do you explain this Mike?
Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 27 2010,21:27) I think you're reading it backwards. Are you just now finding out that both God and the raised Jesus are spirit beings?
No Mike read the entire chapter 3 and it is plain that the Spirit that Paul is speaking of is the Holy Spirit! But even if we read it backwards as you say it would read…Where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty”NOW THE LORD IS THAT SPIRIT”: . 1 Cor 3:17
It’s still the same thing Mike! The whole chapter is speaking of the Spirit of God, and Paul calls the Spirit Lord!
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 27 2010,16:17) Thank you! It isn’t hard for me because I do not have to dance and jump through hoops to explain away scriptures so I can hang on to my manmade doctrines! Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 27 2010,21:27) Is the Father your only God, then?
Yep! Is the Father your ONLY master and Lord?Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 27 2010,16:17)
In the New Heavens and the New earth there is “ONE” throne with One River flowing from it.Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 27 2010,21:27) Will that throne be the one that God granted His servant Jesus to sit in, or the one that Jesus will grant those who overcome to sit in?
Jesus alone sits in the Throne of God with the Father and the Holy Spirit proceeds from them!Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 27 2010,16:17) there is only “One river of Life”! Look again Mike… Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 27 2010,21:27) And there is only one Mississippi River. Answer the point.
Answer the point? What does the Mississippi river have to do with the Greek that clearly shows “One River” and “One Throne”? Look again…Then the angel showed me the RIVER (potamov – Singular masculine noun) of the water (uèdwr – singular Neuter noun) of life”, as clear as crystal, flowing from the throne (qro/nov – Singular masculine noun ) of God and of the Lamb. Rev 22
Now please answer the point and stop with the dance!
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 27 2010,16:17) There is only one Throne Mike! Jesus is sharing the throne with the Father! Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 27 2010,21:27) Then that must be the throne that those who overcome will be granted to sit in? God Almighty's throne? Who will Jesus grant to sit at the right and left of this throne? Oh, that's right, it isn't for him to grant. Those positions belong to the ones his God reserved them for.
Diversions and a smoke screens for I have already shown you that Rev 22 with the One Throne is after the New Creation. And your statement about who will give the right to sit “At Jesus right hand” is Jesus.To him that overcometh “WILL I GRANT to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne. Rev 3:21
Now notice Mike that only Jesus is sitting in the Fathers throne, and we are sitting in Jesus throne! Thrones speak of authority Mike.
But also the Greek word for “Grant” is the same word for “Give” here…
But to sit on my right hand and on my left hand is not mine to give; but [it shall be given to them] for whom it is prepared. Mk 10:40
Notice that something has changed since Jesus made that statement because now “After all things has been given back to him” he “grants or gives” to those who will sit in his throne. No contradiction for the Trinitarian for the Father and Jesus are “One” and Jesus has returned back to his previous Glory he shared with the Father! You should view the Gospels and Jesus life here on earth in light of John 17:5 and Phil 2:6-8 Mike!
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 27 2010,16:17) So in order to support your doctrine it has to be either the Apostles disobeyed the Lord or Jesus never spoke the words and the scriptures are corrupt? How convenient Mike? What if I said that 1 Cor 8:6 was corrupt because Paul also calls Jesus his Great God and Savour so it can’t be right in order to support my doctrine? I would be crucified for saying your proof text is corrupt wouldn’t I? You loose Mike by claiming the scriptures are corrupt or contradictory! Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 27 2010,21:27) Or it could be your choice: That the apostles magically realized that Christ was actually God, and even though their sole mission was
to bring people to God (one person) through Christ ( a different person), they left out this important fact.
And 1 Cor 8:6 says, ” of our great God, and of the savior of us, Jesus Christ”.
Thomas realized before all that Jesus was his Lord and God, and he was the doubter. Jesus said it was more blessed for those who have not seen him and believe! Jesus nor John rebuked him for his proposed blasphemy according to the ATs for calling Jesus his Lord and God. And again you are denying the GSR and basic Greek grammar in relation to Titus 2:13, 14 and 2 Peter 1:1 where Paul and Peter call Jesus their God.Live with the contradictions Mike, for the Apostles did not disobey Jesus mandate, nor are the scriptures corrupt!
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 27 2010,16:17) At any rate even if you say that each have a “Name” then it still means that the Holy Spirit has a personal name like the Father and Jesus. Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 27 2010,21:27) I don't think it says “personal” name, does it? This thing growing outside my door has a name – flower. I don't think that means it has to have a personal name, does it?
What you think doesn’t matter Mike for Jesus speaks of a singular name for the three, and the structure of the verse with the definite article unambiguously proves that Jesus makes no difference in the three sharing that one name in the divine mandate!Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 27 2010,16:17) Whets the difference, Jesus has the name doesn’t he? Trinitarians by claiming Jesus “is God with us” fulfill this scripture, Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 27 2010,21:27) You're doing it again…reading things backwards. What if Moses' name meant “God is with us”? Would it simply mean that God is with us, or would it mean that Moses was the God who was with us?
No Mike there you go again trying to prove a point by using a negative. No other being was given the name “Emmanuel” meaning “God with us” by an Arch-Angel of God, were they?Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 27 2010,16:17) THOU SHALT HAVE NO OTHER GODS BEFORE ME. Ex 20:3 Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 27 2010,21:27) That's funny for me because you keep telling me there were no other gods formed before or after Jehovah. Yet here we have Jehovah saying not to put any of those other gods (of which there are none) before Him.
Mike you do say Jesus is “a god” don’t you? You do put Jesus before you as the only way, truth and life, and the author and finisher of your faith don’t you? You do serve Jesus with absolute devotion even unto death don’t you? Yet you say he is “a god”, Jesus = Websters, but he is not your god? Do you see how silly your argument is Mike?Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 27 2010,21:27) Why can't you understand what God and Paul understood? There are many “mighty ones”, but only one Almighty One.
I do, he said there is “no god but one”, 1 Cor 8:4 but then he clarifies that men have other gods that he calls “so-called” gods. We know that Jesus is not a so-called god. But it seems that is what you think of Jesus because you say he is “a god” but you cannot say who he is a god to. So to you he must be one of those so-called gods!Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 27 2010,16:17) Now has YHWH changed his mind and put a created being before him by telling the creation to serve him with absolute devotion even to the death, especially when he has said you shall not serve other gods? Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 27 2010,21:27) When did God tells us to worship and serve Jesus as God?
It’s all through the scriptures Mike, but I don’t feel like showing them to you again, but I will say this… there are many examples of Jesus being praised and worshipped and the word used is “proskyneoō” the same word that Jesus used in referring to worship to the Father. John 4:24, and not once where the word “proskyneō” is used in worship to Jesus was it discouraged or where Jesus said “Don’t” worship me” yet in every other case that the word is used in worship to an Angel or man it is immediately discouraged. Live with it for presently the Angels are higher than we and are commanded to worship Jesus by the Father!Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 27 2010,16:17) This is why the Jew does not accept Jesus as the Messiah, because his claims were that he was equal to God. Still the same today! Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 27 2010,21:27) This is a lie! When did Jesus claim to be equal to God?
You are calling John a liar!But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work. Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, “BUT SAID ALSO THAT GOD WAS HIS FATHER, MAKING HIMSELF EQUAL WITH GOD”. John 5:17, 18
These words are John’s narration!
In Hebrew culture it was blasphemous to call God YOUR OWN PERSONAL FATHER for they believed you were making yourself equal to God , just as a man humanly is equal to his Father! Of course I fully expect that you will just sweep th
is scripture under the rug like others!Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 27 2010,16:17) Your reasoning is flawed because that is the reason that God came in the flesh is so that man could approach him. God made himself visible by coming in the likeness of sinful flesh and fulfilling his word that he is the Only Savour! Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 27 2010,21:27) What? You can approach God without going through Jesus? I can't. I have to go through Jesus (someone other than God) to approach God.
There you go again, making the word of God of none effect. For God can only approach us first and he cannot come to us in “All of his Glory” or we would die. So God has to take on different forms Like maybe an Angel or a man or Jesus!Jesus said…
If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him (God) , and have seen him (God). Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the (God) Father, and it sufficeth us. Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me (God), Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the (God) Father; and how sayest thou [then], Shew us the (God) Father? John 14:7-9
Do you see it Mike? Jesus only can claim if you know me you know God and if you see me you have seen God!
Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 27 2010,21:27) You didn't answer this question: If Jesus IS God, why must we go through him to get to the Father? What's the difference if they are both equal members of God? And how is Jesus a mediator BETWEEN mankind and God?
Jesus is God in the flesh, he came from heaven as the Word that was with God and was God by emptying himself of his Divine prerogatives as God and took on the “likeness of sinful flesh” and was found “In fashion” as a man! John 1:1, 14, 18 – Phil 2:6-8Now what did I say that is not scriptural? Jesus as the Mediator is “One” with the one he mediates for.
Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, “BUT GOD IS ONE. Gal 3:20
This scripture says a Mediator is not a Mediator of Just one party; however he says “God is One”. In other words the Mediator and God are “One”!
The Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit are one. He that hath ears to hear let him hear!
You still have not answered these questions…
- Where is an example in scripture where any servant of YHWH or Jesus ever called any other their God other than YHWH and Jesus?
- How can Jesus and the Holy Spirit be “Omnipresent” and not be God?
Omnipresence is an “attribute” Mike!
WJ
Quote (JustAskin @ May 29 2010,14:33) WJ, Has this not be done to Jesus' death before between you and me?
If Jesus is God and was, in fact, worshipped, as you claim then there are two major problems:
1) Why did the Jews and Pharasees not call out for blasphemy. They clearly believed in ONE God and disputed that Jesus, this MAN from a nondescript little town of Nazareth, whom they knew was 'Joseph, the Carpenter's son', could possibly the long awaited Messiah, let alone 'God Amighty, himself'.
2) If Jesus is God, then how could he 'die' and if he didn't die then there has been not sacrifice and if no sacrifice, then no salvation and if no salvation then we are still in sin and if still in sin then God has lied, and that is impossible.
Further to your initial sentence: there is nothing in what I said that warranted that response. But uf you are sonehow agreeing then let it stand.
The word used for 'Worship' us equally applicable as 'Obeisence' and by this usage noone would have batted an eyelid, as it turned out is exactly what happened.
JAI have already answered you on these. So from now on I will just say “Answered”!
WJ
Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 29 2010,14:43) Hi WJ,
God was in Christ.[2cor5]
Was that a trinity god?
That makes four
Jesus was in the Father so what is your point?WJ
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