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Quote (JustAskin @ May 25 2010,10:46) Irene, I was born in Jamaica… Doesn't mean anything.
I make relationships between things like numbers. I remember sequences of numbers through their relationship.
I make relationship between words … Just Askin … Simply forgiven…I saw that you had 'forgiven' him, simply so, need you ask more.I ask, why you get angry about such a simple thing if I try to connect your name, real, imagined or contrived. I'm just having a laugh… So touchy…chill Winstan!
Jamaican!!! really no way!!!I would have never guessed!!
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 25 2010,10:19) T8 Why, do you not think Jesus speaks of “a trinity” here?
No we do not hang our doctrine on one verse, but for Jesus to speak of the three the way he did is a good start.
Why do you think he mentions the three with a singular name and all having the definite article?
I haven't seen any valid explanation that deny he at least is speaking of three distinct identities who share the same name.
What say you?
WJ
Hi WJ,Jesus mentions three things in one sentence. That hardly qualifies as speaking of a “trinity” in your sense of the word.
I have showed you another Biblical instance when a singular word was used for two things – you ignore it.
And even if you are right, that singular name is Jesus, not YHWH. Is that your stand? That the divine name is now Jesus, even though Jehovah told Moses that YHWH will be His name forever? can you show an instance where YHWH is called Jesus?
peace and love,
mikeQuote (mikeboll64 @ May 25 2010,12:27) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 25 2010,10:19) T8 Why, do you not think Jesus speaks of “a trinity” here?
No we do not hang our doctrine on one verse, but for Jesus to speak of the three the way he did is a good start.
Why do you think he mentions the three with a singular name and all having the definite article?
I haven't seen any valid explanation that deny he at least is speaking of three distinct identities who share the same name.
What say you?
WJ
Hi WJ,Jesus mentions three things in one sentence. That hardly qualifies as speaking of a “trinity” in your sense of the word.
I have showed you another Biblical instance when a singular word was used for two things – you ignore it.
And even if you are right, that singular name is Jesus, not YHWH. Is that your stand? That the divine name is now Jesus, even though Jehovah told Moses that YHWH will be His name forever? can you show an instance where YHWH is called Jesus?
peace and love,
mike
mike,Whats your opinion when Revelation speaks of a new name?
Revelation 3:12
Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 25 2010,10:19) Quote (t8 @ May 24 2010,17:48) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 01 2010,16:54) Hi all! Why all the accusations and condemnation?
Why are you not addressing the fact that Matthew 28:19 speaks of a “Trinity”?
Hello?
WJ
Is this the verse that you hang your trinity doctrine from?
T8Why, do you not think Jesus speaks of “a trinity” here?
No we do not hang our doctrine on one verse, but for Jesus to speak of the three the way he did is a good start.
Why do you think he mentions the three with a singular name and all having the definite article?
I haven't seen any valid explanation that deny he at least is speaking of three distinct identities who share the same name.
What say you?
WJ
Let's see….One name being ascribed to three distinct persons. Sure looks like a tri-unity to me.Kangaroo Jack
Hi Mike
Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 24 2010,20:27) Hi WJ, Jesus mentions three things in one sentence. That hardly qualifies as speaking of a “trinity” in your sense of the word.
Why do you insist on misrepresenting me? I have never claimed from the start that Matt 28:19 proves the Ecumenical Trinity. I have claimed that Jesus speaks of “a trinity” in response to your statement “there is not even a hint of a trinity found in the Bible”. You were wrong Mike!Also, the fact that the Holy Spirit is mentioned with a singular name is proof in itself that the Holy Spirit takes part in the divine commission and has authority, yet you say the Holy Spirit doesn't have any authority over us. You completely ran away from my post on that and didn't address the scriptures clearly showing the Holy Spirit having authority over the Apostles in the book of Acts! What right do you have to accuse Jack for running and slamming him the way you did?
Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 24 2010,20:27) I have showed you another Biblical instance when a singular word was used for two things – you ignore it.
Look around Mike because you are making a Trinitarian argument! However in your example you have shown nothing and have failed to show us how the Throne in Revelations is two thrones when there is only “One River” flowing out of it!Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 24 2010,20:27) And even if you are right, that singular name is Jesus, not YHWH. Is that your stand?
My stand is that the Apostles carried out the divine mandate because according to Matt 28:18 Jesus has all authority and power and since his name is above every name then when the Apostles baptized in the name of Jesus which means “Jehovah is salvation” then they were baptizing in the “name” or authority and power of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit!But your contention is that the Apostles disobeyed the mandate or that the scriptures are corrupt. You lose Mike when you claim the scriptures are corrupt because the debates are about what is written in the scriptures which are the inspired word of God.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 24 2010,20:27) That the divine name is now Jesus, even though Jehovah told Moses that YHWH will be His name forever? can you show an instance where YHWH is called Jesus?[
You mean “YHWH” the Tetragammation which know one knows the exact pronunciation of?Here is what many believe Jesus was meaning in using a singular name for three distinct identities.
“In the name of the President and of the Vise President and of the power plant”
Look around again Mike because the name Jesus is a Divine name, he also has the Divine name Emmanuel which means “God with us”.
YHWH has many names Mike…
ELOHIM……Genesis 1:1, Psalm 19:1
meaning “God”, a reference to God's power and might.
ADONAI……Malachi 1:6
meaning “Lord”, a reference to the Lordship of God.
JEHOVAH–YAHWEH…..Genesis 2:4
a reference to God's divine salvation.
JEHOVAH-MACCADDESHEM…….Exodus 31:13
meaning “The Lord thy sanctifier”
JEHOVAH-ROHI……Psalm 23:1
meaning “The Lord my shepherd”
JEHOVAH-SHAMMAH…….Ezekiel 48:35
meaning “The Lord who is present”
JEHOVAH-RAPHA………Exodus 15:26
meaning “The Lord our healer”
JEHOVAH-TSIDKENU……Jeremiah 23:6
meaning “The Lord our righteousness”
JEHOVAH-JIREH………Genesis 22:13-14
meaning “The Lord will provide”
JEHOVAH-NISSI………Exodus 17:15
meaning “The Lord our banner”
JEHOVAH-SHALOM……..Judges 6:24
meaning “The Lord is peace”
JEHOVAH-SABBAOTH……Isaiah 6:1-3
meaning “The Lord of Hosts”
JEHOVAH-GMOLAH……..Jeremiah 51:6
meaning “The God of Recompense”
EL-ELYON…………..Genesis 14:17-20,Isaiah 14:13-14
meaning “The most high God
EL-ROI…………….Genesis 16:13
meaning “The strong one who sees”
EL-SHADDAI…………Genesis 17:1,Psalm 91:1
meaning “The God of the mountains or God Almighty”
EL-OLAM……………Isaiah 40:28-31
meaning “The everlasting God” SourceWhich one do you want to pick?
“The Name of the Lord is a strong tower; the righteous runs into it and is safe.” Proverbs .18:10
What “one” name under heaven is given whereby men are saved?
It is in the name of Jesus that all things are done!
IT IS IN THE NAME JESUS THAT THE RIGHTEOUS RUN INTO AND ARE SAFE!
WJ
WorshippingJesus said to Mikeboll:
Quote You lose Mike when you claim the scriptures are corrupt because the debates are about what is written in the scriptures which are the inspired word of God.
Bang Boom! The claim that the scriptures are corrupt is an implied admission that they teach Trinitarianism.Jack
WorshippingJesus said to Mikeboll:
Quote YHWH has many names Mike… JEHOVAH-ROHI……Psalm 23:1
meaning “The Lord my shepherd”JEHOVAH-TSIDKENU……Jeremiah 23:6
meaning “The Lord our righteousness”JEHOVAH-ROHI…meaning “The Lord is my shepherd”
Jesus said, “I Myself am the Good Shepherd”
JEHOVAH-TSIDKENU meaning “The Lord our righteousness”
Paul said that Christ is our righteousness (1 Corinthians 1:30)
Paul said also that Christ is “all things”.
Kangaroo Jack
WorshippingJesus said to Mikeboll:
Quote What right do you have to accuse Jack for running and slamming him the way you did?
It's okay Keith. I don't care.The debate thread shows and the two Echad and Elohim threads show that Mike and I engaged quite a bit on the right hand issue. We had already started repeating ourselves in those threads. So why keep it up?
And there was no going forward with it once Mike denied that Christ reigns but “waits”. Mike lost all when he said that Christ does not reign and that He is a god in the “same sense” as satan. My arguments pushed him to say that Christ does not reign just like your arguments have pushed him to say the scriptures are corrupt. These prove him to be an apostate.
I think the JW's should take Mike out to the woodshed over his beliefs.
Jack
SF,
Yeh Man, di I an I bredrin hail from di farda lan', yu no see it?Wha di man haffi sey bout da? A cool ting ar wha?
Is a intanashinal farum wi a deal wid in ya.
(Don't understand – try reading it with an accent!)
Quote (JustAskin @ May 25 2010,14:01) SF,
Yeh Man, di I an I bredrin hail from di farda lan', yu no see it?Wha di man haffi sey bout da? A cool ting ar wha?
Is a intanashinal farum wi a deal wid in ya.
(Don't understand – try reading it with an accent!)
JAI understand it clearly, it is like most of what you write here!
WJ
Quote (JustAskin @ May 26 2010,06:01) SF,
Yeh Man, di I an I bredrin hail from di farda lan', yu no see it?Wha di man haffi sey bout da? A cool ting ar wha?
Is a intanashinal farum wi a deal wid in ya.
(Don't understand – try reading it with an accent!)
I see that im the Apple,
and your CinnaMAN,Apple (Kangaroo) Jack Cearal
(Seen the commercial?)
KJ,
The problem noone seems to be able to put across to you – why I don't know – is that Trinty (meaning Three things) and Trinity (Meaning, specifically, Three PERSONS in ONE) are not the same things. Only the wording is the same – not the physicalability.
Spirt, Blood and Water are agree as one, a “Trinity”, Yes, Three things spoken of in ONE sentence AND of ONE Mind.
I I I
God, Jesus and God's Holy Spirit (Why that order?) are a Trinity in terms of Three spoken of in ONE sentence – if you “FORCE” the meaningBUT You Know that that is NOT what THE TRINITY DOCTRINE says. It does not say that these three are ONE because they appear together in one sentence (Where else do they do so – If the Trinity is true Scriptures would be littered with this repeated theme but it doesn't – What it does say, is, “God IS ONE, and there is No Other” Not “We Three are God and God is One and there are no others”)
What the doctrine says is that THEY ARE ONE because THEY ARE “ONE PERSON” and that is what you and WJ and others have been completely failing to prove or dispute positively.
God is clearly shown to be the Father (Why a Father in a co-equal unity?)
Jesus is clearly a very loyal, honored, glorified, individual, from among many who, all great but lesser individuals.
Holy Spirit is so clearly shown to be the “HOLY SPIRIT OF GOD [THE FATHER]” that it seems to get overlookedCo-Equal: Would you say that a CEO, the Chief Designer and the Secretary, were Co-Equal partners in a building company – wierd relatonships aside!?)
Ok,
We know God is the Father – and God is God – The Father is God.
You say that Jesus is God – God is Jesus.
You also say that the Holy Spirit is God – God is the Holy Spirit.
Jesus, we know, is the Son of the God, the God/Son of the God… I can't do this…Please KJ or WJ, please explain this concept again, for us.
What i believe:
=============
God is Spirit (Thanks WJ)
Jesus is Blood
Holy Spirit is water
==============
God is Spirit
Jesus is Man
Holy Spirit is the Force of God
==============
God is Spirit – is the Father
Jesus is the [begotten] Son of God
Holy Spirit is the Righteous and Holy Spirit of the father
==============
God is Spirit and know Himself and his inner thoughts
Jesus knows what His Father tells him (“But as to that day and time only my father knows” does the Holy spirit know – of course but it doesn't speak except what it authorised to speak by God or Jesus)
Holy Spirit knows the inner thoughts of God (Yeah, even the deep things of God jsut as the Spirit of a man knows the inner thoughts of that man)Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 26 2010,06:20) Quote (JustAskin @ May 25 2010,14:01) SF,
Yeh Man, di I an I bredrin hail from di farda lan', yu no see it?Wha di man haffi sey bout da? A cool ting ar wha?
Is a intanashinal farum wi a deal wid in ya.
(Don't understand – try reading it with an accent!)
JAI understand it clearly, it is like most of what you write here!
WJ
Jack
Irene,
“Chill Winstan”… “Winston” is a typical Jamaican forename because of one of the [British] governers of the Island in the 19th century.You have to say the words with an accent to make it work: “Cheeel Winstarn”, say it slowly then quicker and the accent will develop naturally. Of course, it means what SF wrote to me in Spanish, it mean 'cool it man'.
Two Jamaican friends who hadn't seen each other for a long time were urgently making their way to different appointments. They saw each other from across the street and hailed one another,
'Cool', said one. 'Cool', said the other.
'Cool?', said the first, 'Cool!', said the second.
'Cool…', said the first, 'Cool…' said the other.And they both carried on to their appointments.
Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ May 25 2010,13:18) I think the JW's should take Mike out to the woodshed over his beliefs. Jack
Hi JackNah, I think the JWs would be proud to have him in the Kingdom hall, after all his theology perfectly lines up with theirs. Actually it seems pretty obvious that at one time he was one of them. I am not sure why he left because it doesn't seem like he has changed his theology at all!
If I am wrong about what I say above Mike please tell us!
WJ
Quote (SimplyForgiven @ May 25 2010,12:37) mike, Whats your opinion when Revelation speaks of a new name?
Hi Dennison,My opinion is that Jesus recieved a new name. No one knows that name right now except for him.
That leads me to believe it is not any of the names we already know him by. And it cannot be YHWH because of the was 3:21 is worded. It talks about the the name of his God AND his new name. Compare with 14:1,
Revelation 14:1 NIV
Then I looked, and there before me was the Lamb, standing on Mount Zion, and with him 144,000 who had his name and his Father's name written on their foreheadsAnd compare with 19:12
Revelation 19:12 NIV
His eyes are like blazing fire, and on his head are many crowns. He has a name written on him that no one knows but he himself.It seems to me that doesn't share a name with the Father, and none of the names we already know him by would fit in with “no one knows but he himself”.
peace and love,
mikeHi WJ.
You said:
Quote I have claimed that Jesus speaks of “a trinity” in response to your statement “there is not even a hint of a trinity found in the Bible”. You were wrong Mike! Is that all it will take? Okay, I'll rephrase what I said, even though you know full well what I meant.
There is not even a hint of a trinity godhead that is made up of three separate yet equal persons in the Bible.
Now where is your “one plain, easy to understand Scripture” to prove me wrong? Preferrably one that says, “God is three persons inside one godhead”.
You said:
Quote You completely ran away from my post on that and didn't address the scriptures clearly showing the Holy Spirit having authority over the Apostles in the book of Acts! I didn't run away. Maybe you missed my answer. I said that any time you read about the Holy Spirit having any kind of authority, remember that means God's authority is being enforced THROUGH His Holy Spirit. If the Holy Spirit has authority as a separate person, then what does this mean?
Matt 10: 19But when they arrest you, do not worry about what to say or how to say it. At that time you will be given what to say, 20for it will not be you speaking, but the Spirit of your Father speaking through you.
Now you probably think the Spirit will actually tell them what to say. But compare to this verse,
John 16:13 NIV
But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come.Hears from whom? When is God ever said to speak only what He hears, or is taught? And look at this,
John 3:34 NIV
For the one whom God has sent speaks the words of God, for God gives the Spirit without limit.Is it beginning to make sense to you? Jesus didn't speak the words of “God the Spirit”, but the words of God which were given him THROUGH God's Spirit. The Spirit is not another god, but something the only God gives to whomever He chooses. One more,
John 8:28 NIV
So Jesus said, “When you have lifted up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am the one I claim to be and that I do nothing on my own but speak just what the Father has taught me.How did the Father “teach” your co-equal god? Through His Spirit that speaks ONLY what God speaks THROUGH it.
You're a smart man, WJ. This shouldn't be so hard for you.
You said:
Quote However in your example you have shown nothing and have failed to show us how the Throne in Revelations is two thrones when there is only “One River” flowing out of it! Is there one or are there two thrones? Does God have one and the Lamb have another? Isn't that what Rev says?
Do you know how many tributary rivers the Mississippi river flows “out of”? Well, neither do I, but there's a lot of them. Can a river not flow out of two separate streams?
So it is not my point, but yours that is moot. Rev tells of a throne for God and a throne for the Lamb. Later John words it to say, “the throne of God and of the Lamb”. You know as well as I that he means, “the throne of God and [the throne] of the Lamb” because they each have a throne. It doesn't really matter anyway because you have admitted along with the trinity supporter Strong that Matt 28:19 cannot possibly by itself prove, or even support a trinity of three persons in a godhead.
You said:
Quote But your contention is that the Apostles disobeyed the mandate or that the scriptures are corrupt. You lose Mike when you claim the scriptures are corrupt because the debates are about what is written in the scriptures which are the inspired word of God. And as I said, it is not because you think it proves your trinity God that I wonder about the authenticity of the scripture in question, but because none of the disciples are shown to have baptized this way. And unlike you with your reaching, I'm not prepared to accept that the disciples just all of a sudden “magically” knew that Jesus was in fact God. Their writings don't bear this out at all. They all pretty much said things like, “the Father and God of our Lord”. And “for us there is but one God, the Father”.
You said:
Quote “In the name of the President and of the Vise President and of the power plant” How many American vice presidents have you know of that had the same name ( or even “power and authority”) as the President?
So the singular “name” would easily be taken by any normal person to actually mean “names”, right? But the sentence still grammatically works.You said:
Quote he also has the Divine name Emmanuel which means “God with us”. Or “God is with us”, right?
You said:
Quote YHWH has many names Mike… I disagree. God gave us only one personal name for Himself. “I shall prove to be what I shall prove to be”. He has many titles and many adjectives added to His name. Such as Jehovah of armies. That is not His name. It is His name with a adjective ( I think) behind it. Maybe English professer Roo can help out here. Lord and God are also titles, not names. And all on your list that start with “Jehovah” do not translate into “lord”. “LORD” is used as a SUBSTITUTE for the divine name, not a definition or synonym for it. YHWH does NOT translate into “lord” or “god”. “LORD” and God are often SUBSTITUTED for the divine name. Do you understand this?
You said:
Quote It is in the name of Jesus that all things are done! Why? Isn't because no one can come to God except THROUGH the name of Jesus? Think about it, Keith. If we cannot approa
ch God directly, but have to approach Him THROUGH His Son, isnt' this enough to tell you that Jesus is NOT God? If Jesus is God, then we wouldn't be able to approach him either. But he's not, is he? No – he's the MEDIATOR BETWEEN us and God.Think man, think
mikeQuote (Kangaroo Jack @ May 26 2010,05:18) WorshippingJesus said to Mikeboll: Quote What right do you have to accuse Jack for running and slamming him the way you did?
It's okay Keith. I don't care.The debate thread shows and the two Echad and Elohim threads show that Mike and I engaged quite a bit on the right hand issue. We had already started repeating ourselves in those threads. So why keep it up?
And there was no going forward with it once Mike denied that Christ reigns but “waits”. Mike lost all when he said that Christ does not reign and that He is a god in the “same sense” as satan. My arguments pushed him to say that Christ does not reign just like your arguments have pushed him to say the scriptures are corrupt. These prove him to be an apostate.
I think the JW's should take Mike out to the woodshed over his beliefs.
Jack
Man up or shut up, Roo. The debate page is still there waiting for answers to my last 4 or 5 questions. I'm not the one who excommunicated you just to run around to every post you make insulting and lying about you, am I?Man up or shut up!
Sorry WJ and all – off topic
mikeQuote (WorshippingJesus @ May 26 2010,10:30) Hi Jack Nah, I think the JWs would be proud to have him in the Kingdom hall, after all his theology perfectly lines up with theirs. Actually it seems pretty obvious that at one time he was one of them. I am not sure why he left because it doesn't seem like he has changed his theology at all!
If I am wrong about what I say above Mike please tell us!
You are mostly wrong. My mom became a Jehovah's Witness when I was 3. I was 12 or 13 when I rebelled so badly against God and going to church that she no longer made me go to the meetings. I spent most of the next 32 years in and out of rehabs and drug houses. I think I've effectively wiped out any memories of what I might have learned back then. But who knows, maybe it's my subconscience. Either way, I got a whole lot of family that would absolutely love it if I went to the meetings. But I am as honest with them as I am with you – I can't get on board with everything they teach. They do provide a great translation and data base of info that I use, though. But rest assured, my infant understanding of the Scriptures is all mine, not theirs. The arguments I make are my thoughts, although once in a rare while, I'll post JW info about a subject.peace and love,
mike
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