Matthew 28:19 authentic or not?

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (JustAskin @ May 15 2010,09:02)

WJ, you have stolen God's word (and adulterated it). I have found you and am desperate to convert to, and I see that you are ripe for it.

No it is you that adulterates the word of God by your denial of it. Because if you deny that Jesus is your “Only Owner or master” then it means that you have blotted that scripture out of your Bible just like Matt 28:19 in which you doubt as being the inspired word of God.

Your words here are typical of a self righteous hypocrite, and you should pull the beam out of your own eye before you attempt to pull the splinter out of Jacks and mine!

But I am praying for you that God will open your eyes to the truth.

WJ

[JustAskin]

WJ,

I am trying to lead you to redemption…yet not I but the Holy Spirit in me.

Oh, and thank you – I knew someone was praying for me – I didn't realise it was you, also.

This is a step forward towards each other, getting closer to the mirror, as it were! – for, as I say, “What you try to do to me , you are doing to yourself.”

[JustAskin]

WJ,

Quote

Its statements like this that prove what I say when I tell you you are speaking lies! WJ

See what I mean – you even recognise yourself – That is the beginning of the change…the first step – WJ, now the next foot, please!

[mikeboll64]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 15 2010,03:39)

Websters=Jesus, remember Mike? Webster’s definition also includes “having special powers over the lives and affairs of people and the course of nature”, so if Jesus is not your God then that means he doesn’t have “special powers over your life and affairs”, right Mike?

To the thinker and WJ,

Webster’s Dictionary defines the word god as,“any of various beings conceived of as supernatural, immortal, and having special powers over the lives and affairs of people and the course of nature”.  This same definition applied during biblical times.  

By this definition, Jehovah is a god.  So is Jesus, Satan, angels, Astarte, Dagon, Molech, Baal, and many, many others.

Don't forget the words in the definition “conceived of”.  Even idols made of wood and stone were “conceived of” by certain people to be gods by Webster's definition.  

Of course Jehovah made it clear in Isaiah that idols are nothing at all in one of my favorite passages in the Bible.  I love how he reasons, “How stupid are you that you cut down a tree, burn half of it in a fire, and then somehow think the other half has some kind of special powers.”    I love it!  

As far as the rest of the gods in the Bible, how do you know what special powers they do and don't have?  Consider Exodus,

. Accordingly Aaron threw his rod down before Phar′aoh and his servants and it became a big snake. 11 However, Phar′aoh also called for the wise men and the sorcerers; and the magic-practicing priests of Egypt themselves also proceeded to do the same thing with their magic arts.

Pharaoh's priests match many of the miracles that God performed through Moses and Aaron.  How could they have done this without supernatural help?

What about Daniel?

12 And he went on to say to me: “Do not be afraid, O Daniel, for from the first day that you gave your heart to understanding and humbling yourself before your God your words have been heard, and I myself have come because of your words. 13 But the prince of the royal realm of Persia was standing in opposition to me for twenty-one days, and, look! Mi′cha‧el, one of the foremost princes, came to help me; and I, for my part, remained there beside the kings of Persia.

What human could have delayed God's angel for 21 days?  The “prince of the royal realm of Persia” must have been a powerful supernatural being for God to have to send Michael to help the other angel, right?

How about the woman Saul had call out the spirit of Samuel?  The Scriptures don't say any of this “supernatural hocus pocus” like ouijah boards ancd crystal balls and such are NOT real.  They just forbid us from practicing it.

That said, let's address your issue.  You said:“so if Jesus is not your God then that means he doesn’t have 'special powers over your life and affairs', right Mike?”

Satan has had “special powers over our lives and affairs” at least since the garden of Eden.  Look what he did to Job!  But does that make him “my God”?  No.  Does it confirm he is a “god”?  Absolutely.

The angels have had “special powers over our lives and affairs” on many occasions mentioned in the Bible.  Are they “my Gods” that I should worship them?  No.  Are they “gods”?  Sure.

Jesus has “special powers over our lives and affairs”.  Is he “my God” that I should worship him?  No.  Honor, praise, adore – yes.  But give worship that is required to go to only one God?  No.

Listen guys, Satan is more intelligent and powerful than we can even understand.  He draws some away from God with thoughts of “big bang theories” and “primodial soup theories”.  But how can he draw those of us who truly believe in Jehovah away from Him?  Not by convincing us that He doesn't exist – we have too much faith for that to work.  So he figures he will get us to worship other gods in the form of Jesus and the Holy Spirit.  The end result is the same.  Satan wins because he is drawing true worship away from the ONLY true God.

Jehovah has given us many commands in the Scriptures, like worship ONLY Him.  But he actually pleads with us in Proverbs 27:11,

11 Be wise, my son, and make my heart rejoice, that I may make a reply to him that is taunting me.

Satan has taunted Jehovah by inciting Adam and Eve to sin.  He taunted Him by saying Job would cave if all his good things were taken away.  And he taunts him every day by leading people away from true worship.  Won't you make Jehovah's heart rejoice by refusing to honor the lies that Satan has invented to draw us away from only worshipping the only true God?

I trust I will never have to answer the many different ways you ask, “How can Jesus be a god, but not YOUR God, Mike” again.  Is this clear enough of an answer?

peace and love,
mike

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (JustAskin @ May 15 2010,11:14)

WJ, I am trying to lead you to redemption…yet not I but the Holy Spirit in me.

The Holy Spirit doesn't deny the Holy Scriptures or speak poisness words against another!

WJ

[NickHassan]

Hi WJ,
I see no poison in those words unless you confuse it with love?
If you respected scripture and it's Author you would not dare preach trinity.

[Worshipping Jesus]

Mike

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 14 2010,05:57)

Your question is a non issue that’s why I chose not to answer. What are you trying to prove here? Does the Holy Spirit have a throne?

Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 14 2010,01:49)

No.  Although that was my question to the trinitarians in the “why two thrones” thread I started.  You response here is the same lame response you gave there.  Doesn't add up to me – THREE equal gods, but only TWO get to sit on thrones.

Why do you keep using lame tactics like this Mike? What if I misrepresented your beliefs in an attempt to discredit your theology? What if I said Mike believes in three unequal god’s, just to make a point. You are being dishonest here IMO, for you full well know that Trinitarians do not believe in “Three equal Gods”. You refuse to see that God is Spirit and that the essence of the Father, Jesus and the Holy Spirit is “One” just like the essence of human beings is “One”. Your problem is you see God with only you natural mind and it seems that is the only way you can perceive him. Tell me Mike, can you say the Holy Spirit revealed to you what you believe?

Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 14 2010,01:49)

Anyway, the throne question you have “missed” in this thread is as follows: I wonder if that verse could mean, “in the name of the Father, and the name of the Son, and the name of the Holy Spirit.” It is worded as such in Rev, where John says in New Jerusalem there will be the “throne of God, and of the Lamb.” We could easily read this as only one throne, had we not previously been told there are two.

No you can read it as “One” throne because that is the way you choose to see it. But in the “New Heavens and the New Earth” there is only “One” throne and it is called the throne of God and of the Lamb.

The Greek word for “River” is a “singular masculine noun” meaning there is only “one river” and not two. This river is flowing out of the throne (singular masculine noun) of the Father and Jesus.

This is what the scriptures say about the Kingdom of Jesus, the Kingdom of God…

”Of the increase of his government and peace THERE WILL BE NO END”. He will reign on David's throne and over his kingdom, establishing and upholding it with justice and righteousness from that time on and FOREVER. The zeal of the Lord Almighty will accomplish this. Isa 9:7

Then Jesus answered, “I am not an earthly king. If I were, my followers would have fought when I was arrested by the Jewish leaders. “MY KINGDOM IS NOT OF THIS WORLD” John 18:36

But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then “the kingdom of God” is come unto you. Matt 12:28

”The Son of man shall send forth HIS ANGELS”, and they shall gather out of “HIS KINGDOM” all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; Matt 13:41

Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see “the Son of man coming in HIS KINGDOM”. Matt 16:28

Jesus specifically calls the Kingdom of God his Kingdom and Isaiah prophesies his Kingdom will never end. Paul states that we have been translated into the Kingdom of the Fathers dear Son. Col 1:13

The word “River” (potamon ποταμον) and “Throne” (thronos, θρονου) is singular and unfortunately for you it doesn’t read…

And he showed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb. does it Mike?

So there is no comparison to these verses (at least the way you see it) and Matt 28:19.

Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 14 2010,01:49)

You replied that the word “name” is singular.  Isn't also the word “throne” singular?  Yet we know he speaks of two.  So once again, does the wording make it absolutely mean only one name?

Yes, since the Apostles carried out his mandate in the “singular name of Jesus”, so the only conclusion is they understood Jesus claim in Matt 28:18 as having all authority and power to include the Father and the Holy Spirit that they were baptized into.

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 14 2010,05:57)

Does the Holy Spirit have his own throne? No, but that is not the role of the Holy Spirit is it? The Holy Spirit is ‘Omnipresent”, why does he need a throne?

Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 14 2010,01:49)

Isn't the Father also “omnipresent”?  Why does He need a throne?

Because the Father and the Son are the ones to whom the Holy Spirit is subservient to. If the Father and Jesus and the Holy Spirit are “omnipresent”, what does that tell you? No being can be omnipresent unless he is God! The Holy Spirit comes from the Father and Jesus, so that means the Holy Spirit comes from the throne and in fact is depicted as the river spoken of in Revelation 22:1-3.

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 14 2010,05:57)

He is subservient to the Father and Jesus.

Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 14 2010,01:49)

This will come in handy.

I am sure you think so!

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 14 2010,05:57)

I am glad you agree, but like David you use examples that do not compare, because the three you mention do not have the same name do they?

Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 14 2010,01:49)

Are you sure your three have the same name?

I am sure that the three share in the same name or authority that Jesus has. That is called equality. Even if you want to say they were to baptize in the “authority” of the three, it still means the same thing. Again, the Apostles confirm that baptism was done in the name of Jesus which is a fulfillment of Jesus words since he has all authority and power! Matt 28:18

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 14 2010,05:57)

Nor are they corporately part of a divine mandate are they?

Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 14 2010,01:49)

A divine mandate that was never followed in Scripture.

So Jesus was lying or the Apostles disobeyed him or the scriptures are corrupt?

Which one is it Mike? Are you going to join the unbelievers that discredit the written scriptures?

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 14 2010,05:57)

There you go asking the same question again. See that is what I am talking about. You get an answer but you keep asking the same thing as if you are going to get a different answer. This whole thing started because you said there was not even a hint of a Trinity found in scriptures. Well you were wrong as you can see you now agree that it is a Trinity. That was all I wanted to prove to you that Jesus mentioned a Trinity.

Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 14 2010,01:49)

See, that is what I'm talking about.  Still no real answer.  Did Jesus talk about a trinity in respect to “three in one God”?  Absolutely not.  Are you implying he did?  Did Jesus talk about a trinity in respect to “I can mention three things in one sentence”?  Sure.  Is that all you are saying?

See Mike, this is why it is so grievous to have dialogue with you because of the word games and smoke screens and diversions you create. Now you are changing the question into “Did Jesus talk about a trinity in respect to “three in one God”?”. You know full well that was not my contention in this thread yet you choose to misrepresent me in answering your original statement that “there was not even a hint of a Trinity in the Bible”. Now you admit that Matt 28:19 is a Trinity. So you were wrong and instead of admitting that, you start a dance and create a diversion. I seriously question your honesty Mike!

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 14 2010,05:57)

Now that you see this then the obvious question which no one and especially you have not answered is… In what way is the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit different in their respective nature or ontology?

Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 14 2010,01:49)

Is your spirit a separate person inside the WJ “man-head”?

No I am not God!

Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 14 2010,01:49)

Can your spirit live a separate life?

No, the Holy Spirit shares the same “God kind of life” that the Father and Jesus do. There is “one” essence of God the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit share that essence.

Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 14 2010,01:49)

Can it run off and go shopping for clothes while you sit at home?

My Spirit is not an “it”, but coupled with my soul is who I am.

The scriptures say…

Therefore I will not refrain my mouth; I will speak in “THE ANGUISH OF MY SPIRIT”; I will complain in the bitterness of my soul. Job 7:11

As for me, is my complaint to man? and if it were so, why should not “my spirit be troubled”? Job 21:4

remembered God, and was troubled: I complained, and “my spirit was overwhelmed”. Selah. Pss 77:3

I call to remembrance my song in the night: I commune with mine own heart: and “my spirit made diligent search”. Pss 77:6

And “my spirit hath rejoiced in God” my Saviour. Lk 1:47

In these scriptures we see our Spirit can have anguish, be troubled, be overwhelmed, and search out things, and can rejoice in God. But no I am not God and cannot send my Spirit to live and dwell in another. But the Father and Jesus and the Holy Spirit lives in us!

Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 14 2010,01:49)

Can it post your thoughts about the trinity that you yourself do not tell it to post?

No because my Spirit will only do what I do because my Spirit is me!

Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 14 2010,01:49)

How about your son?  While he is in the same “nature” as you, can he be the same being as you?

No, because neither my son nor I am God. But my son is every bit human as I.  

Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 14 2010,01:49)

Can he be a separate person in the WJ man-head?

No, because neither I nor he is God.

Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 14 2010,01:49)

I've asked you this before, and your response was, “well, we are not God”.

You see, the
re you go again, asking the same questions and expecting a different answer!

Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 14 2010,01:49)

This is lame and you know it.

No what is lame is you are limiting an infinite God to your own human logic by comparing mortal finite man to an infinite God.

Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 14 2010,01:49)

You profess to prove your un-Scriptural theory by saying that while it is against all logic as we understand it, we are not God.  Well, Jehovah is not a God of confusion.  Your god the trinity, most undoubtedly is, though.

Yes it is confusing to you because you refuse to accept the whole council of God found in the scriptures , but only use your pick and choose method rather than let the Lord show you by his Spirit who the “True God” is. Do you think that you know all about the infinite nature of God? I have proven by Matt 28:19 that Jesus spoke of a Trinity. I never claimed it by itself proves the Trinity.

Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 14 2010,01:49)

I could argue the same thing to prove that Moses was actually God on earth.

No you can’t, because Moses didn’t exist before time and space and create anything, and Moses is not the “King of Kings and Lord of Lords” a divine title of whom has all authority and power and by whom all things consist and by whom all things are upheld by the word of his power and who will subdue all things to himself who is our “Only Owner or master who redeemed us with his own blood for himself. You know these scriptures don’t you Mike?

Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 14 2010,01:49)

Well, Jehovah actually said in that one verse that he would be God to Pharaoh and Aaron.

No Mike, it doesn’t say he would be God to Aaron, it says he would be “a God” or “as God” or “like God” to Pharaoh, and since we know that Aaron never once referred to Moses as his God and that YHWH says that there was no Gods formed before him or after him then we know Moses was only “a God” to Pharaoh a Polytheist who worshipped many gods.

Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 14 2010,01:49)

Sure, the rest of Scripture doesn't back it up, but I've got two things on my side.  That ONE little verse where Jehovah called him God, and the fallback position of,

YHWH didn’t call him God Mike, he said he would be as God to Pharaoh. Why would YHWH contradict his own word that there are no other gods but him!

“

Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 14 2010,01:49)

so what if it doesn't make sense to us humans – we are not God, are we?”.

We are not “gods” at all are we? I find it interesting now that you appeal to what you do not understand as being truth!

Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 14 2010,01:49)

Lame, lame, lame.  And shame, shame, shame.

Ye it is a shame you do not have scripture backing your theology up!  

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 14 2010,05:57)

Why does Jesus speak of the three with the definite article and ascribing a single name to the three if he is not at least implying equality of persons?

Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 14 2010,01:49)

Why does John speak of two thrones with the definite article and the singular word “throne”?  Don't you at least agree with Strong's?  He says about Matt 28:19, “This text, however, taken by itself, would not prove decisively either the personality of the three subjects mentioned, or their equality or divinity.”

I have already told you that by itself it doesn’t prove the Trinity. But you have to take all of the scriptures into account. And the scriptures undoubtedly show the personality of the three. A.T. Robertson says…

This program includes making disciples or learners (maqhteusate) such as they were themselves. That means evangelism in the fullest sense and not merely revival meetings. Baptism in (ei, not into) the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, in the name of the Trinity.

He is a world renowned Greek Grammarian and I would say understands the NT scriptures better than you and me, and has compared all scriptures to come up with his conclusions. The cream of Greek scholarship including “Strong” believes in the Trinity Mike. That leaves you and the NWT out there on your own. Why isn’t there any world renown Greek Grammarians or scholars who are not Trinitarians or have brought to us a legitimate translation? Because they cannot improve on what we have, that’s why!

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 14 2010,05:57)

I think it is more like it doesn’t have anything to do with your Arian doctrine seeing that you do not believe that the Holy Spirit is a person, though Jesus says he shares a name with the Father and Jesus.

Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 14 2010,01:49)

Is your spirit a separate person?

Already answered!

Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 14 2010,01:49)

Why then would God's be?  And you don't even know for sure if the Scripture is legit, let alone it speaks of a single name for the three mentioned.

First even if you say it is not a single name it would
still mean the Holy Spirit like the Father and Jesus has a personal name. But now we are getting to the bottom of it, just like JA now has doubts about it being a legitimate verse. It seems that this verse has had an impact on you Mike, and it is because it is irrefutable proof that there are three which makes it very difficult for you to reconcile your false Arian theology. I expect that soon if not already Matt 28:19 is going to end up in your mind as a corruption in the text just as T believes    

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 14 2010,05:57)

Bingo! I just told you how again! But somehow I think you will come back with the same questions since you cannot comprehend this or you are just sticking your head in the sand again, which is it?

Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 14 2010,01:49)

You see what I'm saying?  Told me again?  You haven't told me anything real yet.  Read your response above and my comment to it.  You just refuse to give a real answer.

{{{{{Shaking Head}}}}}

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 14 2010,05:57)

First of all, Jesus gives the Apostles a divine mandate to baptize men in the “name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit”. So tell my why would Jesus mention the Holy Spirit here if the Holy Spirit does not have authority?

Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 14 2010,01:49)

First of all, MAYBE, if the Scripture is legit.  But a better question is, “Why did none of the apostles follow his “mandate”?

There it is everybody. Mike believes either Jesus was lying or the Apostles failed to follow his mandate. My bet is he is going to trash Jesus words as being never spoken or not being inspired. This is usually what the Arians do with scriptures they do no accept. Truth be known they do not accept many of them for the Bible is a Trinitarian book!

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 14 2010,05:57)

Secondly, you are totally wrong about the Spirit not having “authority or power”. Do you even read my post here or do you just skim over them? Or better yet, have you even read the whole Bible?

Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 14 2010,01:49)

Sometimes I skip over the “million word marches” that you post.  But I have read the Bible cover to cover twice, and I'm in Jeremiah on my third time through right now.

Good, because I had wondered.  

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 14 2010,05:57)

In a reply to David I mentioned many cases where the Holy Spirit has authority over the church and in fact empowers the church with authority and power.

Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 14 2010,01:49)

Cool, let's check them out.

OK.

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 14 2010,05:57)

At once the Spirit sent him out into the desert,  Mk 1:12 Jesus submits to the Holy Spirits leading here. The Holy Spirit “sent” him. This means the Holy Spirit has authority over him doesn’t it Mike? You should learn the scriptures, because like JA your theology is full of holes.

Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 14 2010,01:49)

Hmmmm…but didn't you just say, “He is subservient to the Father and Jesus.”  I knew this would come in handy.

See Mike this is the kind of diversions and dishonest tactics that you pull all the time.

You know full well we believe that Jesus left his place of Glory and humbled himself by coming in the likeness of sinful flesh and fulfilled all righteousness and for a time was subject to the Father and the Holy Spirit. But now the Holy Spirit according to Jesus words is subservient to him after his exaltation. John 16:7-15

I noticed you didn’t address the point that the Holy Spirit had authority over Jesus. Remember Mike you said…

Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 12 2010,21:56)

One last point:  You mentioned to Marty that the Holy Spirit had power and authority.  Where does Scripture say that the Holy Spirit has authority over anything?

I show you and instead of you acknowledging the truth or address the point, you create a smoke screen. You are not seeking truth as you say Mike. You are too proud to admit when you are wrong.

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 14 2010,05:57)

But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, “HE SHALL TEACH YOU ALL THINGS, AND BRING ALL THINGS TO YOUR REMEMBRANCE, whatsoever I have said unto you”. John 14:26 If the Holy Spirit is our guide and he is our teacher then he is over us, isn’t he?

Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 14 2010,01:49)

Yet, Jesus said, “13 However, when that one arrives, the spirit of the truth, he will guide YOU into all the truth, for he will not speak of his own impulse, but what things he hears he will speak, and he will declare to YOU the things coming.” Sounds like the Spirit OF God speaks only what God speaks through it.  If you don't want your gra ndson to play football, can your spirit tell him to go ahead and play anyway, against your will?

Thank you Mike for you just admitted that Jesus is God because it is Jesus that the Holy Spirit listens to and Jesus that the Holy Spirit takes from. Read the context Mike!

But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own; HE WILL SPEAK ONLY WHAT HE HEARS, and he will tell you what is yet to come. He will bring me glory by revealing to you whatever he receives from me. “ALL THAT BELONGS TO THE FATHER IS MINE. That is why I said THE SPIRIT WILL TAKE FROM WHAT IS MINE and make it known to you”. John 16:13-15

But you still did not show me where the Holy Spirit doesn’t have authority over us Mike. Remember you said…

Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 12 2010,21:56)

One last point:  You mentioned to Marty that the Holy Spirit had power and authority.  Where does Scripture say that the Holy Spirit has authority over anything?

If the Holy Spirit is our guide and our teacher then he has authority over us!

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 14 2010,05:57)

I would say that is “authority” wouldn't you Mike? I could go on Mike but I will let you choke on those for awhile. Maybe you should retract your statement, or heck maybe you should trash your Arian theology and start all over again.

Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 14 2010,01:49)

The rest of the Scriptures you quoted amount to the same thing.  If God's Spirit tells you to do something, it is God telling it to you THROUGH His Spirit.

So the Holy Spirit does not have any authority over you? That tells me a lot Mike! Sad.

WJ

[Worshipping Jesus]

Mike said…

Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 12 2010,21:56)

One last point:  You mentioned to Marty that the Holy Spirit had power and authority.  Where does Scripture say that the Holy Spirit has authority over anything?

Mike chose to look over the following scriptures which are proof that the Holy Spirit has authority.

[KangarooJack]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 16 2010,10:10)

Mike said… Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 12 2010,21:56) One last point:  You mentioned to Marty that the Holy Spirit had power and authority.  Where does Scripture say that the Holy Spirit has authority over anything? Mike chose to look over the following scriptures which are proof that the Holy Spirit has authority. As they ministered to the Lord, and fasted, “**THE HOLY GHOST SAID**, Separate me Barnabas and Saul for the work WHEREUNTO **I HAVE CALLED THEM**. And when they had fasted and prayed, and laid [their] hands on them, they sent [them] away. So they, being “**SENT FORTH BY THE HOLY GHOST**”, departed unto Seleucia; and from thence they sailed to Cyprus. Acts 13:2, 4 Who separated them and called them? Who sent them forth? Why doesn’t the writer mention the Father or Jesus here? Read Acts Mike and you will see the writer sees no distinction in the Holy Spirit and God, and that is because he is God! Now when they had gone throughout Phrygia and the region of Galatia, “and were **FORBIDDEN OF THE HOLY GHOST** to preach the word in Asia”, After they were come to Mysia, they assayed to go into Bithynia: but **THE SPIRIT SUFFERED THEM NOT**. Acts 16:6, 7 The Spirit had authority over Paul here. Why doesn’t the writer mention the Father or Jesus? And just for fun I will quote the NWT in the next passage… Pay attention to yourselves and to all the flock, among “**WHICH THE HOLY SPIRIT HAS APPOINTED YOU OVERSEERS, to shepherd the congregation of God**“, which he purchased with the blood of his own Son. Acts 20:28 NWT Here we see the Holy Spirit appointing the leaders of the church to shepherd the church. But notice here we do see three spoken of and of the three it is the Holy Spirit that appoints!   I would say that is “authority” wouldn't you Mike? Why did you leave these points out Mike? These scriptures do not mention the Father or Jesus and is unambiguous truth that your assumption was false. But some how I think you will be to proud to admit that your statement…. Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 12 2010,21:56) One last point:  You mentioned to Marty that the Holy Spirit had power and authority.  Where does Scripture say that the Holy Spirit has authority over anything? …is false. The fact that the Holy Spirit appointed the leaders of the Church to feed the flock blows you statement away. Are you going to stick your head in the sand again Mike? Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 14 2010,01:49) Heck, maybe you should trash you trinitarian beliefs and follow the word of God.  And by “God”, I mean “the only true God”, Jehovah.  The Father of Jesus, not the co-equal God with the one who says “the Father is greater” and calls Him “my God”.  The owner and possesor of His Spirit.  Not the God who is co-equal with a spirit who you claim is subservient to Him and His Son, yet has authority over His Son.  The only one of your three gods who doesn't deserve a throne. Still waiting on a REAL reply to my a/b question from before and to the singular “throne” wording. Total misrepresentation and useless diatribe When will you stop with your dishonest misrepresentations of  what I believe or say? WJ

Hi Keith,

The scriptures you give above are conclusive. The Holy Spirit has authority. There is also 1 Coprinthians 12 where Paul said that the Holy Spirit gives spiritual gifts according to His own will.

I can't decide if I will continue discoursing with Mike or not. He lost the argument when he said that Jesus is a god in the “same sense” that satan is a god. I have never heard this one, not even from the most ardent Arian here. Mike's statement is totally anathema!

He also lost the right hand argument when he said that Jesus does not reign now but is “waiting” for God to do something.  

btw, the NWT has “the blood [of His Son]” (brackets).

I pulled muscles in my neck doing home improvement under the deck behind my house. I went to the chiropractor and I am in a lot of discomfort especially after he worked me over. I cannot turn my neck when driving.

thinker

[KangarooJack]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 16 2010,02:47)

Quote (JustAskin @ May 15 2010,09:02) WJ, you have stolen God's word (and adulterated it). I have found you and am desperate to convert to, and I see that you are ripe for it. No it is you that adulterates the word of God by your denial of it. Because if you deny that Jesus is your “Only Owner or master” then it means that you have blotted that scripture out of your Bible just like Matt 28:19 in which you doubt as being the inspired word of God. Your words here are typical of a self righteous hypocrite, and you should pull the beam out of your own eye before you attempt to pull the splinter out of Jacks and mine! But I am praying for you that God will open your eyes to the truth. WJ

Keith,

In the past I have asked JA to give me his shipping address so I can send him a case of Bic's White Out.

thinker

[KangarooJack]

Quote (JustAskin @ May 16 2010,01:02)

TT, You are our only Despot. WJ, every time I plead with you for mercy for yourself, you throw it back in my face. Do you still not realise that it is your own face that you are throwing it back into… Have you not yet cottoned on? How many times can I say, 'WJ, I AM YOU'. What you think you are doing to me is what you are doing to yourself! TT is going to get more spiteful as he realises he could be losing you. This shows exactly thst he is not one to align yourself with. Do not use him as your crutch, he will break under you, his crutch is full of beetle grub holes. Do not be afraid to let go of him, God will bless you for it. Do you see what is written about Onesimus in Philemon 1? Onesimus stole from his master, Philemon, and fled to Rome. But he somehow came across Paul, who converted him to God's truth and Onesimus became 'Begotten' of Paul. Paul pleads with Philemon to accept Onesimus back… WJ, you have stolen God's word (and adulterated it). I have found you and am desperate to convert to, and I see that you are ripe for it. WJ, take the step, you will not regret it, ditch TT's foul fish, it will give you gut rot. I am pleading already to God to accept you when you turn, to forgive the stolen adulterated words. WJ, do you ever pray? Who do you pray to? What do you pray for?

JA,

Will you address the scripture in Jude 4 or not? If not then please be quiet.

You have lost the argument and YOU KNOW IT! Your continued rants are no more than an embarassment to your friends.

thinker

[NickHassan]

Hi TT,
You mean the Jude who told us some had crept in and even denied our only master and Lord, Jesus Christ.
Did you not do so when you made him somehow our God?

[JustAskin]

TT,

What is wrong with calling you a Despot since you like the word?

And since when do I have to answer a question that I never entered into – let alone for you to claim that I lost the argument for?

Why are you so desperate for me to supply you with an answer – Are you not already engaged in a dispute with another over this issue – keep on with that.

And if I speak the truth about you – why does that rile you – Does the truth offend you (Oh, yes, of course – why did I ask?)

Also, why do you get so hecked up about someone else that I speak about – Do you not like the idea of WJ learning the truth – coming in from the wilderness – are you afraid to be out there on your own – No no, Don't be – there are others here to take his place:
“Always Two – there are! A Master and an apprentice!”
“But which is the master and which the apprentice?”

[KangarooJack]

Quote (JustAskin @ May 16 2010,11:30)

TT, What is wrong with calling you a Despot since you like the word? And since when do I have to answer a question that I never entered into – let alone for you to claim that I lost the argument for? Why are you so desperate for me to supply you with an answer – Are you not already engaged in a dispute with another over this issue – keep on with that. And if I speak the truth about you – why does that rile you – Does the truth offend you (Oh, yes, of course – why did I ask?) Also, why do you get so hecked up about someone else that I speak about – Do you not like the idea of WJ learning the truth – coming in from the wilderness – are you afraid to be out there on your own – No no, Don't be – there are others here to take his place:                “Always Two – there are! A Master and an apprentice!”                “But which is the master and which the apprentice?”

Yak yak yak,

I ate you up JA Your inability to exegete Jude 4 proves it.

thinker

[KangarooJack]

JustAskin said:

Quote

“Always Two – there are! A Master and an apprentice!”               “But which is the master and which the apprentice?”

The Apprentice becomes the Master. The apprentice does not remain a servant forever.

Apprentice according to Funk and Wagnall's Dictionary: “One who is bound by legal agreement to serve another for a fixed period of time“.

Jesus was bound by a covenantal agreement to serve His Father for a fixed period of time. He is no longer an Apprentice. He is now the Master Himself.

He is our “only despot.”

Sometimes you talk like you have no life experience whatsoever. You rant on showing your ignorance of reality and you act like a child.  

thinker

[NickHassan]

Hi TT,
Will you still be fighting mock battles over falsehoods and trivia when the Master returns?

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 15 2010,22:02)

Hi TT, Will you still be fighting mock battles over falsehoods and trivia when the Master returns?

NH

Which master? You can only serve one!

WJ

[KangarooJack]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 19 2010,02:33)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 15 2010,22:02) Hi TT, Will you still be fighting mock battles over falsehoods and trivia when the Master returns? NH Which master? You can only serve one! WJ

Keith,

EXCELLENT POINT!

thinker

[terraricca]

Quote (thethinker @ May 19 2010,10:14)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 19 2010,02:33) Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 15 2010,22:02) Hi TT, Will you still be fighting mock battles over falsehoods and trivia when the Master returns? NH Which master? You can only serve one! WJ Keith, EXCELLENT POINT! thinker

TT

it is the representative of the holy master that come back with the power received from the holy master our God the father of all, but not recognized by all.

[terraricca]

hi TT

you have change your picture cool is this picture more in line with your personality and character??

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