Matthew 28:19 authentic or not?

[JustAskin]

Hi Mike,

Thanks for keeping on with WJ about Matthew 28:19.

Quite frankly, my style is not long drawn out debate that continues when it is clear that the other party has nowhere to run. They will end up thrashing, and no good can come of that. The natural rules of argument and warfare, goes out the window. The adversary drops into devilry, even massacaring your good works in pursuit of a way out (See what Is1 does with your questions. Are they reasoned answers, or ones aimed at pure frustration and muddlery? For this reason I refuse to dialogue with him after my first and only encounter with him)

WJ could not last ONE page before it was patently clear that he had got it all wrong and was floundering.

I offered him a way out but his pride, sadly, won't allow him.

I will offer up a prayer for him, in case his spirit is being held by 'him'.

[JustAskin]

WJ,

I have mentioned to you several times now…

 Don't respond to so many threads.
 Pick one, two or three posts, and your debates threads.
Don't expand debate threads more than necessary with mega multiple questions, pick, say, six and follow them through until one, two or three are answered and then introduce more. Drop some if they are of poor value.

WJ, dialogue IN CONTEXT, concede where it is clear that you are not right. It is utter contempt for your claim to be a Pastor, invested with teaching, and bringing others to an understanding of God, through Jesus, if you willingly enter into fraudulent support or deception, in order to save face.

WJ, stop it, please.
WJ, there is no shame in speaking the Truth, or admitting you spoke incorrectly.

It is, in fact, a Godly thing to admit your failure. Admission is like a washing of your spotted gown. Turning it inside out, does not hide the spot from God's eyes. You may fool some for a little while, but you will be eventually found out…like NOW!

[JustAskin]

Gene,

Thanks for the support.

[mikeboll64]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 08 2010,03:02)

The Spirit of Jesus reveals to man who God is and without that revelation men will die in their sins.

Hi WJ,

And not only his spirit, but the very words he taught with. Words like “the Father is greater” and the Father is “the only true God”. Doesn't the fact that our God is his God tell you anything?

peace and love,
mike

[mikeboll64]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 08 2010,03:04)

Neither have we, but we have had to pick and choose what we have time for because we are out numbered for one and secondly because we also have lives. So your accusations are totally false and uncalled for.

Hi WJ,

It's the ones that you pick and choose that bother me sometimes. You pick and choose the “easy” ones that you have a ready made trinitarian response to.

Pick and choose terra's 3 questions earlier in this thread. Those are 3 that I would like to see answered from your point of view.

If you read the opening to my debate with Jack, it's the “pick and choose” I was trying to avoid when I challenged him.

peace and love,
mike

[david]

“The Trinity is here to stay, and Matthew 28:19 is unambiguous evidence that the early Apostles and Church Fathers believed in a Trinity.“–WJ

The fact that 3 were mentioned in no way proves anything other than the fact that you can count to 3!

Congratulations on that.  Well done.

I have a question, one which will remain largely unanswered and ignored.  IF these three are a trinity, equal, would it not be a disrespect of immense magnitude to continually count them as only 2?

My question: If 3 being mentioned together once proves something, what does 2 being mentioned together numerous times prove?  I await your silence!

Examples:

1 CORINTHIANS 1:3
“May YOU have undeserved kindness and peace from God our Father and [the] Lord Jesus Christ.”
2 CORINTHIANS 1:2
“May YOU have undeserved kindness and peace from God our Father and [the] Lord Jesus Christ.”
GALATIANS 1:3
“May YOU have undeserved kindness and peace from God our Father and [the] Lord Jesus Christ.”
EPHESIANS 1:2
“May YOU have undeserved kindness and peace from God our Father and [the] Lord Jesus Christ.”
PHILIPPIANS 1:2
“May YOU have undeserved kindness and peace from God our Father and [the] Lord Jesus Christ.”
COLOSSIANS 1:2
“to the holy ones and faithful brothers in union with Christ at Co·lośsae: May YOU have undeserved kindness and peace from God our Father.”
1 TIMOTHY 1:2
“to Timothy, a genuine child in the faith: May there be undeserved kindness, mercy, peace from God [the] Father and Christ Jesus our Lord.”
2 TIMOTHY 1:2
“May there be undeserved kindness, mercy, peace from God [the] Father and Christ Jesus our Lord.”
TITUS 1:4
“May there be undeserved kindness and peace from God [the] Father and Christ Jesus our Savior.”

The holy spirit is always left out of these greetings— an unbelievable and UNEXPLAINABLE OVERSIGHT if it were indeed a person or entity coequal with God the Father and Christ!

Question: HOW DO YOU EXPLAIN THAT?  IF 3 BEING MENTIONED ONCE PROVES SOMETHING, WHAT DOES 2 BEING MENTIONED NUMEROUS TIMES PROVE?

If “the holy spirit” were an integral and personal part of a triune Godhead, then why does “He” not send “His” personal greetings as well?

If there were a third person involved, wouldn’t Paul have surely known about it and included “Him” in his greetings to the congregations?

If Paul actually believed the holy spirit was part of a triune God, would it not have been insubordination of the highest level to continually ignore “him?”

Please actually do respond.

David

[david]

Follow up questions to ignore:

PETER JAMES JOHN

James, Peter, and John used similar phrases in the introduction to their letters where they likewise do not mention the holy spirit.

James said he was “a slave of God and of [the] Lord Jesus Christ.” (James 1:1)

John also said: “this sharing of ours is with the Father and with his Son Jesus Christ.” (I John 1:3)

Peter’s introduction: “May undeserved kindness and peace be increased to YOU by an accurate knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord,” (2 Pet 1:2)

So my question: If the Spirit were an individual co-equal with the Father and the Son, how is it that these 3 did not include him?

Also, when Paul does include additional persons in his greetings, salutations and adjurations, he names “the elect angels,” not “the holy spirit” (1 Tim. 5:21; cp. Luke 9:26 and Rev. 3:5).
If I was an equal part of a triune God, I would feel somewhat disrespected to say the least. I mean, if I was an equal owner of a business, and I was basically always ignored in the company letters, how would I feel?
Question: Is there any way these Bible writers would have made this mistake?

In all of Paul's writings, only in 2 Corinthians 13:14 is the holy spirit mentioned along with the Father and Christ, and there only in connection with the “fellowship of the Holy Spirit” (NIV)—not in any sort of theological statement on the nature of God. God's Spirit, says Paul, is the unifying agent that brings us together in godly, righteous fellowship, not only with one another but with the Father and Son. Yet here, too, God's Spirit is not spoken of as a person. Notice that our fellowship is of the Holy Spirit, not with the holy spirit. 1 John 1:3 tells us, “truly our fellowship is with the Father and with His Son Jesus Christ.” The Holy Spirit is not mentioned.
Paul states that “there is one God, the Father, . . . and one Lord Jesus Christ . . .” (1 Corinthians 8:6). He makes no mention of the holy spirit as a divine person. What is the deal?

Can anyone answer these questions?

david.

[david]

I'm continuing this line of reasoning here:
https://heavennet.net/cgi-bin….t=3213;

[mikeboll64]

Quote (david @ May 09 2010,10:07)

1 CORINTHIANS 1:3 “May YOU have undeserved kindness and peace from God our Father and [the] Lord Jesus Christ.” 2 CORINTHIANS 1:2 “May YOU have undeserved kindness and peace from God our Father and [the] Lord Jesus Christ.” GALATIANS 1:3 “May YOU have undeserved kindness and peace from God our Father and [the] Lord Jesus Christ.” EPHESIANS 1:2 “May YOU have undeserved kindness and peace from God our Father and [the] Lord Jesus Christ.” PHILIPPIANS 1:2 “May YOU have undeserved kindness and peace from God our Father and [the] Lord Jesus Christ.” COLOSSIANS 1:2 “to the holy ones and faithful brothers in union with Christ at Co·lośsae: May YOU have undeserved kindness and peace from God our Father.” 1 TIMOTHY 1:2 “to Timothy, a genuine child in the faith: May there be undeserved kindness, mercy, peace from God [the] Father and Christ Jesus our Lord.” 2 TIMOTHY 1:2 “May there be undeserved kindness, mercy, peace from God [the] Father and Christ Jesus our Lord.” TITUS 1:4 “May there be undeserved kindness and peace from God [the] Father and Christ Jesus our Savior.”

Hi David,

Isn't is also so clear to see that in every Scripture you quoted, not only are two persons prominent, but that only ONE of them is God?

It is evedent from greetings and closings such as these, that every NT writer knew that only one being is God, and that one is the Father alone.

peace and love,
mike

[david]

Quote

It is evedent from greetings and closings such as these, that every NT writer knew that only one being is God, and that one is the Father alone.

Well, it's not really clear from the above scriptures that “every” NT writer knew that only one being is God, because all those scriptures were from Paul.

But, of course, James, Peter and John had similar expressions in their greetings.

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (david @ May 08 2010,18:07)

“The Trinity is here to stay, and Matthew 28:19 is unambiguous evidence that the early Apostles and Church Fathers believed in a Trinity.“–WJ The fact that 3 were mentioned in no way proves anything other than the fact that you can count to 3!

Hi David

This is in response to your post in your own thread!

I am sure our Lord Jesus would have plenty to say about your claim that his words “prove nothing” but only that some can count to three. This is the typical response of the JWs who do not respect Jesus own words but in fact love to make his words of none effect.

Quote (david @ May 08 2010,18:41)

QUESTION 1:If these three are a trinity, would it not be a disrespect of immense magnitude to continually count them as only 2?

The definition of a Trinity is what Jesus speaks of in the fullest since of the word, since he speaks of three separate identities with the definite article and a singular name or authority that the Apostles were to baptize into. There is nothing in the verse that implies inequality with the three. Also it must have been total “disrespect of immense magnitude” for Jesus to speak of the three knowing that he would inspire the Apostles to often speak of the 2 yet sometimes of the three. Not to mention the disrespect of our Lord to the Father for mentioning a mere force or power with equal terms in the mandate, namely a singular name!

This is a ridiculous question, seeing that the Holy Spirit is often spoken of without the mention of the Father or Jesus which we will get into later.

Quote (david @ May 08 2010,18:41)

QUESTION 2:  If 3 being mentioned together once proves something, what does 2 being mentioned together numerous times prove?  (Think about the reason that either proves anything)

It sure doesn’t prove there isn't three (or a Trinity) does it David? Again, you are accusing the Lord of not proving anything by his words!

Quote (david @ May 08 2010,18:41)

A few examples: 1 CORINTHIANS 1:3 “May YOU have undeserved kindness and peace from God our Father and [the] Lord Jesus Christ.” 2 CORINTHIANS 1:2 “May YOU have undeserved kindness and peace from God our Father and [the] Lord Jesus Christ.” GALATIANS 1:3 “May YOU have undeserved kindness and peace from God our Father and [the] Lord Jesus Christ.” EPHESIANS 1:2 “May YOU have undeserved kindness and peace from God our Father and [the] Lord Jesus Christ.” PHILIPPIANS 1:2 “May YOU have undeserved kindness and peace from God our Father and [the] Lord Jesus Christ.” COLOSSIANS 1:2 “to the holy ones and faithful brothers in union with Christ at Co•lośsae: May YOU have undeserved kindness and peace from God our Father.” 1 TIMOTHY 1:2 “to Timothy, a genuine child in the faith: May there be undeserved kindness, mercy, peace from God [the] Father and Christ Jesus our Lord.” 2 TIMOTHY 1:2 “May there be undeserved kindness, mercy, peace from God [the] Father and Christ Jesus our Lord.” TITUS 1:4 “May there be undeserved kindness and peace from God [the] Father and Christ Jesus our Savior.” The holy spirit is always left out of these greetings— an unbelievable and UNEXPLAINABLE OVERSIGHT if it were indeed a person or entity coequal with God the Father and Christ!

So according to your logic it was an “unbelievable and UNEXPLAINABLE OVERSIGHT ” of our Lord to mention the Holy Spirit in a divine mandate to the Church in the same sentence with the Father and the Son, and then ascribing “a singular  Name” or authority to the three knowing that Paul would  sometimes speak of two, right David? When will you stop accusing the Lord of ignorance! Did he make a mistake in his words?

Quote (david @ May 08 2010,18:41)

QUESTION 3: If “the holy spirit” were an integral and personal part of a triune Godhead, then why does “He” not send “His” personal greetings as well? (Is he not conscious of us or does he just not care to send a greeting?)

What are you saying David, that the Holy Spirit is not one with the Father and Jesus?

Of course he is conscience of us. He is the “Counselor”, or Greek (paraklētos) which means;

1) summoned, called to one's side, esp. called to one's aid
a) one who pleads another's cause before a judge, a pleader, counsel for defense, legal assistant, an advocate
b) one who pleads another's cause with one, an intercessor

Here are a few examples of how the Holy Spirit is conscience of us and cares for us…

And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter that he may abide with you for ever; [Even] the Spirit of truth; whom “the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, NEITHER KNOWETH HIM: BUT YE KNOW HIM; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you”.   John 14:16, 17

Notice David, the world does not “know him” but we “know him”, how about you? He abides with us forever! Will you make Jesus words of none effect again?

But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, “he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you”. John 14:26

Here we see the Holy Spirit will teach us all things and bring all things to our remembrance that Jesus has spoken. So he is our teacher as well.

But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God, Acts 7:55

Here we see the three again David, and notice it is the Holy Spirit that is filling Stephen and showing him the Lord Jesus at the Fathers right hand. This truly reveals the Holy Spirit carrying out his role, which is to empower the believer and reveal the Father and Jesus to them, and not speak of himself. (John 16:13)

Then had the churches rest throughout all Judaea and Galilee and Samaria, and were edified; and walking in the fear of the Lord, and in the “comfort (Greek paraklēsis) of the Holy Ghost”, were multiplied. Acts 9:31

Here we see the Holy Spirit is strengthening and encouraging the Church. The Greek paraklēsis means;

1) a calling near, summons, (esp. for help)
2) importation, supplication, entreaty
3) exhortation, admonition, encouragement
4) consolation, comfort, solace; that which affords comfort or refreshment

An amorphous force or power doesn’t do those things David.

Quote (david @ May 08 2010, 18:41)

QUESTION 4:  If there were a third person involved, wouldn’t Paul have surely known about it and included “Him” in his greetings to the congregations? (What does it mean that Paul was unaware of the holy spirit being part of a triune God?)

I thought you just asked this. It is Jesus that speaks of the third person in Matthew 28:19 unless you want to say that the Father and Jesus are not persons. Jesus gives us no indication the Holy Spirit is not equally a person. How does Paul’s greetings invalidate Jesus own words?

Quote (david @ May 08 2010,18:41)

QUESTION 5:  If Paul actually believed the holy spirit was part of a triune God, would it not have been insubordination of the highest level to continually ignore “him?”

Who says Paul ignores him?

[JustAskin]

WJ,

It is easy to create a nonesense hypothesis and then challenge others to disprove it.

The inability (if it came to that) of any individual, by virtue of their own lacking of the realisation that it is nonsense, to disprove the nonesense hypothesis, does not mean that the nonesense hypothesis, therfore, must be true.

Science has been convinced for a great number of years that alien creatures must exist due the sheer number of potential earth type planets they theorise must be 'out there'. Now, what if they challenged a 'life on earth only' group to disprove 'alien life' theory? Could it be done? No, of course not. But does that PROVE then that alien life must exist – because it could not be proved against?

This is TT logic!

… 'Trinitarian Truth', i.e. False logic…

[NickHassan]

Hi WJ,
Lots of pretty words do you qualify your theory as any form of truth.
It remains your own silly theory.

[KangarooJack]

JustAskin said to WJ:

Quote

Seeing that you claim I am speaking falsely against you – Please provide your proof or evidence that I have spoken falsely… JustAskin

JA,

What world are you living in? The burden of proof is on the accuser. Does your deistic god approve of your speaking  witness against a man without proof?

thinker

[NickHassan]

Hi TT,
No you who preach a trinity god must prove your mission from Scripture.
Mt 28 says to teach what he taught but do you??

[KangarooJack]

Quote (david @ May 09 2010,10:24)

Follow up questions to ignore: PETER        JAMES         JOHN James, Peter, and John used similar phrases in the introduction to their letters where they likewise do not mention the holy spirit.   James said he was “a slave of God and of [the] Lord Jesus Christ.” (James 1:1) John also said: “this sharing of ours is with the Father and with his Son Jesus Christ.”  (I John 1:3)   Peter’s introduction: “May undeserved kindness and peace be increased to YOU by an accurate knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord,” (2 Pet 1:2)   So my question: If the Spirit were an individual co-equal with the Father and the Son, how is it that these 3 did not include him? Also, when Paul does include additional persons in his greetings, salutations and adjurations, he names “the elect angels,” not “the holy spirit” (1 Tim. 5:21; cp. Luke 9:26 and Rev. 3:5).   If I was an equal part of a triune God, I would feel somewhat disrespected to say the least.  I mean, if I was an equal owner of a business, and I was basically always ignored in the company letters, how would I feel? Question: Is there any way these Bible writers would have made this mistake? In all of Paul's writings, only in 2 Corinthians 13:14 is the holy spirit mentioned along with the Father and Christ, and there only in connection with the “fellowship of the Holy Spirit” (NIV)—not in any sort of theological statement on the nature of God. God's Spirit, says Paul, is the unifying agent that brings us together in godly, righteous fellowship, not only with one another but with the Father and Son.  Yet here, too, God's Spirit is not spoken of as a person. Notice that our fellowship is of the Holy Spirit, not with the holy spirit. 1 John 1:3 tells us, “truly our fellowship is with the Father and with His Son Jesus Christ.” The Holy Spirit is not mentioned. Paul states that “there is one God, the Father, . . . and one Lord Jesus Christ . . .” (1 Corinthians 8:6).  He makes no mention of the holy spirit as a divine person.  What is the deal? Can anyone answer these questions?   david.

David,

The distinctions in the verses you give are not cardinal but ordinal. For instance, if I say “there is too many chiefs and not enough Indians” I do not make a cardinal distinction between chiefs and Indians. The distinction is one of class. A biblical example is found in Genesis 6 where it says that the sons of “God” took the daughters of “men” for wives. Does this distinction imply that the sons of God are not men? No! The sons of God are always and necessarily men. The sons of “God” were of the covenantal line of Seth and the daughters of “men” were of Cain. Therefore, the distinction is an ordinal one.

You have no explicit statement in the scripture which denies that Jesus Christ is God. You think you have “proof” from the statements like you above which speak only of the ordinal distinction between God and Christ.

There is no cardinal distinction between God and Christ.
thinker

[NickHassan]

Hi TT,
Despite your fancy theological talk Jesus is not his own Father or God.
Wake up

[KangarooJack]

David asked:

Quote

So my question: If the Spirit were an individual co-equal with the Father and the Son, how is it that these 3 did not include him?

David,

Your argument from silence is weak. WJ has already provided statements from scripture which do speak of the three together including the Spirit. By your logic we should conclude that Ananias and Sapphira did not lie to the Father or to Jesus because the Spirit alone is mentioned (Acts 5). The narrative says that they lied to the Holy Spirit.

When will you guys come up with an argument that has substance? When will you show that Trinitarianism violates the law of non-contradiction?

thinker

[NickHassan]

Hi TT,
God is spirit.
The Lord is the Spirit.
yet strangely you think the Spirit of God and Christ is another person??

[KangarooJack]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 13 2010,07:14)

Hi WJ, Lots of pretty words do you qualify your theory as any form of truth. It remains your own silly theory.

Nick,

When have I ever said that Jesus is His own Father? I believe that they are three IN one and not three and one.

You stumble in understanding language Nick.

thinker

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