Matt 5 :19

Participant

Malcom,

Thanks for that… I see what you are saying but that sounds no different to the law in the OT… did they live faithfully by the law… by no means – did they do everything right, by no means – did they get judged for not obeying, in most instances no, does it mean that they all perished and will not make the resurrection… I don't think this to be the case…that is grace is it not, so how then is the law of the OT and the Law of love or grace any different in the long run.

The God of the OT is the same as the NT… so how has he changed. Did Jesus teach this change? If he did was to a higher more strick law…

Both laws have the same grace… both bring freedom, it was humanity in changing and adding to what God has set in place that brought death… is this not what Jesus taught, when he condemned the Pharisees for not teaching right doctrine but placing people under a load they were not intended to carry.

The Law brings death? – I do not see Jesus teaching “death” is brought about by the Law of God. Only Paul.

I just do not understand why God who knows all things, who does not change, seemingly gets things so wrong in making an imperfect Law in the first place when he knew man was imperfect and to keep it was impossible, and then has to change the order that he set in place originally for something newer.

Why all the trouble of setting something up if you know it is flawed – only to negate it sometime later. Why not just set up the original plan of salvation from the beginning. Would that not be the most sensible thing to do.

This concept of a better law of liberty brought in later to replace the first sounds like the road planners of my town, we continually have roadworks because they do not get it right due to lack of forward planning where they have to redig what they dug last year.

This is just my thinking… but I am still learning and am open to thoughts.
_

Malcom,

When you say God looks at the heart intent. I am not too sure where this is taught in the bible. However I do see God say in Revelation and other places, I now your works – not I see your heart, your inner being.

Sure this should be a love walk, but do you not think that is what the OT Law was ment to be… the first command was, love the LORD your God with all your heat, soul mind and strength… he provided for their failure… hense the lamb sacrifice etc – There in lies His grace. Did God treat David according to the Law when he sinned with Bathsheba, no he did not – he should have been stoned for both murder and adultery according to the Law, but David repented and God fogave him – but therein lies grace… you see God's grace is at work in the Law…

We strive, they stived to keep right with God – they failed, we fail to do everything right… but in both OT and NT it is God's grace that does not change, but the sacrifice does. One a yearly animal sacrifice the other a human, once and for all sacrifice, but the grace is the same in both. Undeserved…

April 3, 2006 at 7:02 pm#12356

Participant

Quote (Artizan007 @ April 03 2006,11:45)

Hey Nick,

Thanks for that Nick but I still am not sure I understand…

I can not see the difference between “thou shalt not” and “thou shalt” in the long run…because both are commandments that should be adhered to:- to say one is higher than the other because of phraseology does not make sense.

They are just spoken from an opposite approach but they mean the same thing. In fact the Old testament does not say thou shalt not… it says… but, love your neighbour as yourself. Sorry I cant see your reasoning here. James is quoting the Old Testament. (That is the Law of God) – He was referring the word “scripture” to the Old Testament. Surely.

What is the law of liberty? That is such a vague concept…if it does not mean the OT Ten Commandments – if not how do you define this Law of liberty… what do you say it is.

Rom 8:1
There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit

Does Jesus state anything like this?

Hi A7,
Do you not yet understand that Paul was Christ in his flesh? That the Spirit of Christ inspired all his words and actions?

” It is no longer I that liveth but Christ that liveth in me”

That is why there can be no conflict and if you seek that Spirit God will show you.

April 3, 2006 at 11:03 pm#12370

malcolm ferris

Participant

Hi Artizan
Where does it say God looks at the heart?
God called David a man after His own heart.
He sure wasn't a man after God's works on every ocassion.
Also in Heb 4:12 it tell you He looks at the thoughts and intent of the heart…
As to what you were saying about this not being a whole lot different from the Law.
Jesus didn't say he came to bring something different from the law, just to fulfill it.
If you look at the words of Moses. His desire (and therefore God's) was not to have them follow a bunch of orders but rather to circumcise the foreskins of their hearts…
The difference between the Law of commandments and Jesus Law of Grace?
By one sacrifice you are forever reconciled to God, not many. So the need to do this do that
is taken away. You are reconciled and true, once the worshipper under the old covenant had offered the lamb it was good to cover him for a whole year.
Consider the words of the rich young ruler to Jesus. “All these things I have kept from my youth” Jesus never corrected him.
Because he had remained faithful to offer a lamb every year for his sin, then he could make this claim.
Yet Paul clearly tells us by the works of the law no man is justified.
Like I say it is not a law verses faith arguement full of contradictions.
The sacrifices of the law do not justify anyone, the keeping of commandments does not justifiy anyone, at best it covered you for a season.
But the blood of Jesus did more than cover sin, it destroyed the very power of sin.
The inner nature which once had desire for sin is changed by the rebirth.
So there is a big difference to my mind.

April 4, 2006 at 3:55 am#12396

Participant

Enough now listen to me brothers;
Jesus changed the law from physical to spiritual. The Ten Commandments are written on our heart. You don't need a letter to tell you that it's wrong to murder. It's written on your heart “thou shalt not kill”. Nine commandments are written on your heart if you are to keep all Ten commandments then you will have to “REMEMBER” to keep the Sabbath. Don't keep the fourth, you will automatically keep nine commandments and thus be one of the least in the Kingdom.
Jesus has always taught go the extry mile, turn the other cheek, when they take your shirt offer them your coat as well ETC. If you should decide to keep the Sabbath Holy Unto The LORD then you will be the greatest in the Kingdom.
Let me guess “I keep everyday unto the Lord” No You Don't! Try it! try keeping a whole day (24 hr.) Holy unto the Lord. I guarantee you will not keep the whole day Holy unto the Lord. If you don't keep the Sabbath you will still be saved, wait …IF YOU DECIDE NOT TO KEEP THE SABBATH “YOU WILL STILL BE SAVED”! The Sabbath is not written on your heart you have remember to keep it.

How do you keep the sabbath ?Seek God all day seek to be in His presence all day. Don't go to church then go home and watch the NFL. When you speak, speak unto the Lord for it is His day. BE IN HIS PRESENCE.
Try it I'll bet any of you that you can't do it. Think about it all of you. How long have you been in the Father's presents? 15 minutes, a hour, may be 8-12 hours! Not enough!

The Father loves and wants compassion not sacrifice. Like the sinner's prayer if your not sincere you won't be saved.
If you are saved then (I'm sorry) but I'm your brother. I would NEVER lead you down a wrong road. Try it what will it hurt to seek the Lord all day being in His presence. May be your one of the great ones!

Now peace be unto all who have heard this message

kenrch

April 4, 2006 at 4:12 am#12397

Participant

Hi kenrch,
Jesus never specified the sabbath when asked about the Law. In fact he said some special things about the sabbath;
“the Son of Man is Lord of the sabbath”
and
“The sabbath was made for man and not man for the sabbath”

Paul in Collosians also made a point about those who tried to force the sabbath on believers.

April 4, 2006 at 4:49 am#12398

malcolm ferris

Participant

So what is the sabbath then?

April 4, 2006 at 6:10 am#12402

Participant

“Think about it all of you. How long have you been in the Father's presents?”

Hi Kenrch,

You are right I have not been in the Father's presents lately… but I have been in the Father's Presence. Hehe, sorry I can just imagine being wrapped up in wrapping paper and sitting as a suprise present from God for someone he wants to bless… nice image.

K, He is with me everywhere I go… He promised not to leave me nor foraske me. As I acknowledge him though out the day… I know he is strengthening me, helping me and granting me this ruach I breath… life from his presence…

Saturday or Sunday or Monday – I agree it is always good to set aside time to spend with the Father… you hit the nail on the head on the time aspect but as for Saturday or Sunday, i go on both… is that wrong!!! or very holy of me…

Oh boy I must be the greatest of the greatest in the Kingdom. No seriously – I don't mind if you want to worship on a Saturday, fair play to you – that is fine, but for me it is a non issue. I go on both because I love my Father, and on Tuesday and Wednesday too… any time I can be in the house of God is good for me…

I don't agree with what you wrote, but I enjoy reading your thoughts by the way… and thanks for making me think!!! Cause i dont know as much as others on this site it is aways good for me to think through the various options.

Keep it coming!

April 4, 2006 at 6:34 am#12403

Participant

Hi A7,
What or where is the house of God?

April 4, 2006 at 7:15 am#12404

Participant

Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 03 2006,20:02)

Artizan007,April wrote:

Hi A7,
Do you not yet understand that Paul was Christ in his flesh? That the Spirit of Christ inspired all his words and actions?

” It is no longer I that liveth but Christ that liveth in me”

Hey Nick

Whoa, that is interesting… so Paul is a little Christ – is that what you are trying to say… Christ in the flesh of Paul, like God manifest in the flesh of Jesus. Not too sure I am happy with that… but I will think it over.

[It is no longer I that liveth… but Christ that liveth in me]

Why spiritualise this: it means what is says, it is not literally but in the sense of he is living Christ's way rather than after his own fleshly nature. Conforming to Christ's life. Christ does not literally come and live in us… He is in heaven interceeding for us is he not and must remain till all is accomplised … he lives in us by the “holy spirit” – the promised gift from the Father.

**All his words and actions** – that is a stretching it a bit don't you think: When Paul said “God will strike you you whitewashed wall”, in anger towards Annanias the High Priest… was that Christ like. And when Paul said he never knew Annanais was High Priest – I can't believe that. He had been apart of the Sanhedrin secret police before his vision of Christ on the road to Damascus. He also said he had studied at the feet of Gamaliel – would he not know the dress code for a high priest…

It is just strange that Jesus, who you say inspired 'all” his words and actions, did not answer in this way… when he was hit and beaten…

Paul says in Romans 13: “all authority is God given”, then he mouths of at one of those that God has put in a position of authority… This is not the way to react as a leader of the “Christian” church – so it is not looking good.

April 4, 2006 at 7:16 am#12405

Participant

Anywhere two or three people meet in the Name of Christ… this just happens to be a larger gathering than that…

April 4, 2006 at 10:22 pm#12419

Participant

Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 04 2006,05:12)

Paul in Collosians also made a point about those who tried to force the sabbath on believers.

Gon is never going to force anything on you.
I'm glad that you realize that the Sabbath was made for man and not just Jews.

Why wouldn't Jesus be Lord of the Sabbath He gave the Ten Commandments and made them spitritual.

The only scripture where sabbath is mentioned is the ANNUAL (high day) Sabbaths.

Answer the question who will be least and who will be great?
Matt 5:17-19

April 4, 2006 at 10:29 pm#12420

Participant

Hi kenrch,
When did Jesus give the Ten Commandments?

Matt 13.52
“Therefore every scribe who has become a disciple of the kingdom of heaven is like the head of a household who brings forth out of his treasure things new and old”

All scripture whether from the OT or NT is treasure to be learned from.

But it is not all applicable directly to the reader.

April 5, 2006 at 12:04 am#12425

Participant

Quote (malcolm ferris @ April 04 2006,05:49)

So what is the sabbath then?

The sabbath is the rest of God and points to the 1ooo year milinnium. On the sabbath the day belongs to the Father. It's you and God and that's all. You can't do that during the work week. You can't do that on Sunday! Now can you?

There remains a sabbath rest for the People of God.
If you want a part to the tree of life you will be doing His cammandments (Rev. 22:14).

The law is written on your heart but not the Sabbath you have to remember to keep the sabbath. Put forth an extra effort go the extra mile, turn the other cheek you know I wrote this before.
No one has to tell you not to steal that law is written on your heart. But the sabbath is not written on your heart.

This is what most people think.
“It's not written on your heart because Jesus did away with it”.

I gave the word of God as proof that Jesus did not do away with the Commandments. Yet all I get are “false words and words of wisdom, wait! they're the same oh well)

Give scripture and I will defeat you with scripture, try it, that's it bring it on and we will see who has the sword of God . No you twist Paul's writings to your own destruction because you and your catholic church think Paul teaches that Jesus did away with the Ten Commandments. What are the results of no law? Just look around can you see the results of your whore mother's teachings.

You know I get a kick out of people getting upset when the Ten Commandment are taken out of a school or court room ETC.
You'd think that these people keep the Ten Commandments. The fact is that most people today don't keep nine commandments much less Ten.

Read this scripture and tell me if it describes today.

Matt.24:12 and because lawlessness will increase, the love of many people will grow cold.

No love no law. Because people are still listing to the whore Love grows cold. Hey look no love no law! No law no love!

I've said it before scripture WILL be fulfilled.

2Ti 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;

You guys ever ask yourself what is the big deal it's just another day. Some if not most are off on the Sabbath day anyway. It's just another day I'm with God everyday so what's the big deal? Why am I so defensive about a day?

Your salvation is not at stake! SO WHAT IS THE BIG DEAL?

You guys can't even get together to form an opinon. One say the Law is for Jews. Another says the gentiles will keep the law during the last day. Still another says Jesus did away with the law.
Every where Paul speaks about the Ten Commandments he follows with “GOD FORBID”.

I'm not trying to force anything on anyone. Actually I couldn't even if I wanted too, thank God. The Sabbath is between you and the Father. Do you want to spend the entire day with God or an hour on Sunday.
The fact is the catholic church changed the sabbath to Sunday. They also lied about the trinty and “Good Friday” they instituted Easter with bunny rabbits and eggs.
They made saints then striped them of their sainthood.
They demand that you call them father when Jesus said not too. Their leader in my view puts himself above God by calling himself “The Most Holy Father” when Jesus said to pray to our Father whioch art in heaven how can he claim to be the “Most” holy father.
And they change the fourth commandment to the third then changed the day. You might not be old enough but some years ago for catholics you could not buy or sell anything on Sunday. They tried to (as satan always does) copy the seventh day of God and make it work on Sunday. Well today you have the results (as always with satan) you go to Satan's church for a hour or so then go home and watch you football teem drink a few beers and what ever you heathens do on Sunday.

Dan 7:25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

Tell you what you can't keep any 24 hr day holly unto the Lord.

kenrch

April 5, 2006 at 12:08 am#12426

Participant

Quote (Artizan007 @ April 04 2006,07:10)

“Think about it all of you. How long have you been in the Father's presents?”

Hi Kenrch,

Keep it coming!

007 !

April 5, 2006 at 12:38 am#12427

Participant

Hi Kenrch,
So we are heathen sons of a whoremother?
Who gave you the right to judge us?

April 5, 2006 at 3:28 am#12428

malcolm ferris

Participant

Quote (malcolm ferris @ April 04 2006,05:49)

So what is the sabbath then?

So what is the Sabbath then?
Is it Saturday?
Is it Sunday?
Is is a day?

April 5, 2006 at 4:40 am#12434

Participant

Hi kenrch,
If any day is not holy unto the Lord we are on the wrong track.
If our own temple grows cold and dark what hope have we?

April 5, 2006 at 7:44 am#12438

Participant

Hey Nick,

Your'e so right, true every day is the Lord's, but not every day is set aside as a Holy rest day. We should be warming and lighting up our temple every day your are absolutely right… but one day in the week should we not just chill and enjoy God with as little distraction as possible. I don't have a preference as to which day, neither am I hard and fast on this…but God in his wisdom has said six days you must work and on the seventh rest… His wisdom, and for our own good I feel. it is an ideal – I guess, but not always possible.

Matt 13.52
“Therefore every scribe who has become a disciple of the kingdom of heaven is like the head of a household who brings forth out of his treasure things new and old”

Nick how do you jump from scribe as a disciple to OT & NT treasure out of this verse. Was that because it said “things old and new” so it must mean OT and NT. I cant see how it is talking about old and new testament treasure, firstly the New Testament did not exist… and secondly, because the NT treasure did not exist for the scribe to gain knowledge to teach it – how is it possible to come to your conclusion…

I think it is too big a leap if you ask me. That is my thought – Your thoughts, how did you get to your conclusion.

|scribe|
1.somebody who copies or writes out documents, especially somebody who copied manuscripts in medieval times
2.somebody who copies the Sefer Torah and other religious documents using a quill pen on parchment
__

Hey K,

In keeping your sabbath day,

Do you mean we need to keep a day holy, not watching tv, cooking, cleaning the house, making the bed, washing dishes, brushing your teeth etc… only spending time reading, family devotions etc and in quiet contemplation.

What if your child got sick on your Sabbath day – would you rush him/her off to the hospital, what if your mother fell down the stairs and was in trouble, would you go to her house to help her…if not then what would you do, sit at home in quiet contemplation. Is that for the better good of humanity… Would you stay at home and read or would you break the Sabbath rest and go to help your mum in her pain. I know what I would do… if i would do that then I am sure my father in heaven who is sooooo much bigger and just would do more than I do.

If you want to be great in the kingdom, be the servant of all…

April 5, 2006 at 8:27 am#12439

Ramblinrose

Participant

Artizan007

I believe the following answer the last part of your post.

Luke 13:15 The Lord then answered him, and said, Thou hypocrite, doth not each one of you on the sabbath loose his ox or his ass from the stall, and lead him away to watering? 16 And ought not this woman, being a daughter of Abraham, whom Satan hath bound, lo, these eighteen years, be loosed from this bond on the sabbath day?

Luke 14:5 And answered them, saying, Which of you shall have an ass or an ox fallen into a pit, and will not straightway pull him out on the sabbath day?

Whilst the Sabbath day should be kept Holy (set apart), this does not mean that you should not assist animals or people etc in need on that day. That is akin to the laws the pharisees added (not even allowed to carry anything as that was considered work). This was never the intent of the Sabbath.

April 5, 2006 at 10:10 am#12440