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Quote (seekingtruth @ April 01 2006,17:23) Quote (david @ Mar. 31 2006,06:29) Yes, as Nick said, actually, the vast majority of humankind never were under the Law, as the psalmist explained: “[Jehovah] is telling his word to Jacob, his regulations and his judicial decisions to Israel. He has not done that way to any other nation; and as for his judicial decisions, they have not known them.” (Psalm 147:19, 20)
When God established the new covenant on the basis of Jesus’ sacrifice, even the nation of Israel was no longer under obligation to obey the Law. (Galatians 3:13; Ephesians 2:15; Colossians 2:13, 14, 16)
I'm not sure that is entirely true.I believe that those of the circumcision, including the apostles, were under the law and remained so until death.
The OT and Jesus's ministry (hence the gospels) was to those under the law but half way though Acts we are introduced to the new covenant and the age of grace.
I believe that the age of grace began with Cornelius who was a sign to the circumcision that God was going to reach out to the gentiles. But began in ernest with Sauls conversion (to an outreach to those not under the law). At that time God cast away Israel (temporarily) and there became no difference between Jew or Gentile (in other words Jews were saved the same as Gentiles through faith).
To any since Paul we're saved by grace and all his letters are written under this new covenant. At the end of the age I believe in a rapture where all those under the age of grace are resurrected (or caught up if living) and God will once again deal directly with Israel.
I believe this is why there is a perceived conflict within scriptures, they are written to two different groups under different covenants and we're trying to combine them into one teaching.
seekingtruth,Are we to ignore all these scriptures?
1Jo 2:3 And hereby we know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
1Jo 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him;
1Jo 3:22 and whatsoever we ask we receive of him, because we keep his commandments and do the things that are pleasing in his sight.
1Jo 3:24 And he that keepeth his commandments abideth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he gave us.
1Jo 5:2 Hereby we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and do his commandments.
1Jo 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
2Jo 1:6 And this is love, that we should walk after his commandments. This is the commandment, even as ye heard from the beginning, that ye should walk in it.
Rev 12:17 And the dragon waxed wroth with the woman, and went away to make war with the rest of her seed, that keep the commandments of God, and hold the testimony of Jesus:What commandments are the saints of the tribulation of the last days Keeping?
Are they all Jews if so, so am I a spiritual Jew.
Rev 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints, they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.Please explain?
Quote (seekingtruth @ April 01 2006,17:23) Quote (david @ Mar. 31 2006,06:29) Yes, as Nick said, actually, the vast majority of humankind never were under the Law, as the psalmist explained: “[Jehovah] is telling his word to Jacob, his regulations and his judicial decisions to Israel. He has not done that way to any other nation; and as for his judicial decisions, they have not known them.” (Psalm 147:19, 20)
When God established the new covenant on the basis of Jesus’ sacrifice, even the nation of Israel was no longer under obligation to obey the Law. (Galatians 3:13; Ephesians 2:15; Colossians 2:13, 14, 16)
I'm not sure that is entirely true.I believe that those of the circumcision, including the apostles, were under the law and remained so until death.
The OT and Jesus's ministry (hence the gospels) was to those under the law but half way though Acts we are introduced to the new covenant and the age of grace.
I believe that the age of grace began with Cornelius who was a sign to the circumcision that God was going to reach out to the gentiles. But began in ernest with Sauls conversion (to an outreach to those not under the law). At that time God cast away Israel (temporarily) and there became no difference between Jew or Gentile (in other words Jews were saved the same as Gentiles through faith).
To any since Paul we're saved by grace and all his letters are written under this new covenant. At the end of the age I believe in a rapture where all those under the age of grace are resurrected (or caught up if living) and God will once again deal directly with Israel.
I believe this is why there is a perceived conflict within scriptures, they are written to two different groups under different covenants and we're trying to combine them into one teaching.
seekingtruth,Are we to ignore all these scriptures?
1Jo 2:3 And hereby we know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
1Jo 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him;
1Jo 3:22 and whatsoever we ask we receive of him, because we keep his commandments and do the things that are pleasing in his sight.
1Jo 3:24 And he that keepeth his commandments abideth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he gave us.
1Jo 5:2 Hereby we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and do his commandments.
1Jo 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
2Jo 1:6 And this is love, that we should walk after his commandments. This is the commandment, even as ye heard from the beginning, that ye should walk in it.
Rev 12:17 And the dragon waxed wroth with the woman, and went away to make war with the rest of her seed, that keep the commandments of God, and hold the testimony of Jesus:What commandments are the saints of the tribulation of the last days Keeping?
Are they all Jews if so, so am I a spiritual Jew.
Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ
Rev 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints, they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
I never said that you or anyone else was not saved. And I never said that you can only be save by keeping the Law and neither did Christ. Jesus said you will be the least in the kingdom. The choice is yours.
Please explain?kenrch
All the scriptures you reference are written by John, one of the apostles who by their own words were sent to the circumcised (those under the law). Where in scripture, am I as a Gentile, commanded to adhere to the law? Prior to the age of grace I would had to of become a proselyte is that what you think? I'm not suggesting that the law is done away with, I just believe it does not apply to us having been replaced by grace and by His Spirit urging us onto love for God and the brethren whereby we fulfill the law.Quote (kenrch @ April 01 2006,18:13) Quote (seekingtruth @ April 01 2006,17:23) Quote (david @ Mar. 31 2006,06:29) Yes, as Nick said, actually, the vast majority of humankind never were under the Law, as the psalmist explained: “[Jehovah] is telling his word to Jacob, his regulations and his judicial decisions to Israel. He has not done that way to any other nation; and as for his judicial decisions, they have not known them.” (Psalm 147:19, 20)
When God established the new covenant on the basis of Jesus’ sacrifice, even the nation of Israel was no longer under obligation to obey the Law. (Galatians 3:13; Ephesians 2:15; Colossians 2:13, 14, 16)
I'm not sure that is entirely true.I believe that those of the circumcision, including the apostles, were under the law and remained so until death.
The OT and Jesus's ministry (hence the gospels) was to those under the law but half way though Acts we are introduced to the new covenant and the age of grace.
I believe that the age of grace began with Cornelius who was a sign to the circumcision that God was going to reach out to the gentiles. But began in ernest with Sauls conversion (to an outreach to those not under the law). At that time God cast away Israel (temporarily) and there became no difference between Jew or Gentile (in other words Jews were saved the same as Gentiles through faith).
To any since Paul we're saved by grace and all his letters are written under this new covenant. At the end of the age I believe in a rapture where all those under the age of grace are resurrected (or caught up if living) and God will once again deal directly with Israel.
I believe this is why there is a perceived conflict within scriptures, they are written to two different groups under different covenants and we're trying to combine them into one teaching.
seekingtruth,Are we to ignore all these scriptures?
1Jo 2:3 And hereby we know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
1Jo 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him;
1Jo 3:22 and whatsoever we ask we receive of him, because we keep his commandments and do the things that are pleasing in his sight.
1Jo 3:24 And he that keepeth his commandments abideth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he gave us.
1Jo 5:2 Hereby we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and do his commandments.
1Jo 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
2Jo 1:6 And this is love, that we should walk after his commandments. This is the commandment, even as ye heard from the beginning, that ye should walk in it.
Rev 12:17 And the dragon waxed wroth with the woman, and went away to make war with the rest of her seed, that keep the commandments of God, and hold the testimony of Jesus:What commandments are the saints of the tribulation of the last days Keeping?
Are they all Jews if so, so am I a spiritual Jew.
Rev 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints, they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.Please explain?
Hi kenrch,
“his commandments”
Who is he?Kenrch
Sorry I missed a couple of your questions.What commandments are the saints of the tribulation of the last days Keeping? I believe this to be after the rapture and God is once again working through Israel and they will follow the law just as the apostles did after Pentecost
Are they all Jews if so, so am I a spiritual Jew. We are grafted in but some day God will graft back in the natural branches. I believe that Gentiles during that time that do turn to God will once again have to become a proselyte and come under the law (just as the apostles did after Pentecost) to find God (not that the law saves them, its still the sacrifice of Jesus, but it is a requirement of the covenant).
Quote (kenrch @ April 01 2006,15:24) You know is it so hard to believe that the one who has lied to you ALL THIS TIME has not yet another lie. All lies to hinder the Kingdom of God on earth. Thy Kingdom come. The kingdom will not come until all the kings and priest are chosen. Seek and you will find. Well we sought the forgivness of sin. If we seek to be a ruler with Jesus what will we find? I believe will we find just who each and everyone will be in the Kingdom. A ruler could be but even greater than a ruler a servant.
Mat 23:11 But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant.
Hey! There is nothing wrong with being a servant. Now is there?
Praise and glory be to the Father first and the Son!
Hi Kenrch,
The kingdom came when the King of kings visited his kingdom and fulfilled scripture
Matt 21.5.
” ..Behold your King is coming to you, gentle and mounted on a donkey..”The Law?
Lk 16.16
“The Law and the prophets WERE proclaimed UNTIL John;SINCE THAT TIME the gospel of the kingdom has been preached and everyone is forcing his way into it. But it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away than for one stroke of the Law to fail”Wow! Yet another lie you believe from the mother of lies.
The bible is only for Jews we are not under the same covenant as the christian Jews. WOW!
Ok the Ten Commandments are only for the JewsMar 2:27 And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath:
Jesus said the sabbath was made for MAN. Would that include Gentiles?
Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
Paul said Jew, Greek, male, female, we are ALL ONE IN CHRIST JESUS! Did you get that in the Kingdom their are no Jews or Gentiles.
Speaking of the last day saints:
seekingtruth I think here you are saying that gentiles will have to become Jews during the tribulation and that it is a requirement of the covenant.
But now only the Jews have to keep the Commandments. The Gentiles don't have too. But after or during the tribulation the Gentiles will have to keep the commandments that THEN it will be a requirement of the covenant. But not now.
Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.NOW we don't have to keep the Commandments but later in Rev the last chapter we will have to keep the commandments.
That's a first for me. Please tell me more.
Are they all Jews if so, so am I a spiritual Jew. We are grafted in but some day God will graft back in the natural branches. I believe that Gentiles during that time that do turn to God will once again have to become a proselyte and come under the law (just as the apostles did after Pentecost) to find God (not that the law saves them, its still the sacrifice of Jesus, but it is a requirement of the covenant).
What Law was that Nick? What were Moses' teachings?
Luk 16:16 “Moses' Teachings and the Prophets were in force until the time of John. Since that time, people have been telling the Good News about the kingdom of God, and everyone is trying to force their way into it.Circumcision was one of Moses' teachings.
1Co 7:19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing; but the keeping of the commandments of God.
Oh yeah Paul is only speaking to Jews!Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
Who in the world are the remnant? Their the ones that keep the commandments and the testimony of Jesus.
The remnant (last of the true church) will only be Jews?Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
The ones that do His commandment have the right to the tree of life. Only the Jews?
Don't bother to read the rest.
Here Paul teaches The Gentiles not to keep the Law of Moses.
Act 15:1 And certain men came down from Judaea and taught the brethren, saying, Except ye be circumcised after the custom of Moses, ye cannot be savedAct 15:5 But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees who believed, saying, It is needful to circumcise them, and to charge them to keep the LAW OF MOSES.
Act 21:20 And they, when they heard it, glorified God; and they said unto him, Thou seest, brother, how many thousands there are among the Jews of them that have believed; and they are all ZEALOUS FOR THE LAW.
Act 21:21 and they have been informed concerning thee, that thou teachest all the ** Jews who are among the GENTILES TO FORSAKE MOSES,** telling them not to CIRCUMCISE their children neither to walk after the customs.Act 13:39 and by him every one that believeth is justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the LAW OF MOSES.
Act 13:42 And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the **GENTILES** besought that these words might be preached to them the *next sabbath*.
Act 13:43 Now when the congregation was broken up, many of the Jews and religious proselytes followed Paul and Barnabas: who, speaking to them, persuaded them to continue in the grace of God.
Act 13:44 And the next sabbath day came almost the whole city together to hear the word of God.Is this scripture related to your question?
JAMES 2:10-11
“For whoever observes all the Law but makes a false step in one point, he has become an offender against them all. For he who said: “You must not commit adultery,” said also: “You must not murder.” If, now, you do not commit adultery but you do murder, you have become a transgressor of law.”
A person might “break” one of the commandments by willfully disobeying it. Or, he might do what was viewed as even worse, namely, teaching fellow Jews subject to the Law that some of its commands were not binding. While the Law covenant was in force, it was an expression of God’s will for his people. Transgression or teaching things contrary to commandments that some may have viewed as even “least” in importance would be apostasy against God.Hi david,
The OT Law was made impossible to be fulfilled by and through the one who did fulfill it completely, Jesus Christ. He tightened up the details such that none could follow him that way and all must accept his newly declared role as living mediator with God.
But the Law never disappeared but remained in force for those who rebelled and continued to try to achieve righteousness by works. It would still be their accuser just as Jesus said to the Pharisees and lawyers that they would be judged according to Moses and the prophets.
Paul did deal with the gentiles differently but was allowed to show the Jews that he was not a breaker of the Law so that he could win them to Christ. To the Jews he behaved like a Jew and to the gentiles as a gentile, even a Roman citizen. That was the freedom of the Spirit in action.
1Cor 9.21f
“For though I am free from all men, I have made myself a slave to all, so that I might win more. To the Jews I became as a Jew, so that I might win Jews; to those that are under the law as under the Law though not being myself under the Law so that I might win those who are under the Law;to those who are without Law[gentiles], as without Law, though not being without the Law of God but under the Law of Christ, so that I might win those who are without Law”The Law of God includes the Law of Christ.
Hi kenrch,
Who is the woman who gave birth to the male child in Rev 12? Surely it is Israel who brought forth the Son of Man and those who are saved in him. These are removed to safety and the dragon chases the woman and her other offspring. So who are the offspring of that woman as described in Rev 12 17?Quote (david @ April 02 2006,05:57) Is this scripture related to your question?
JAMES 2:10-11
“For whoever observes all the Law but makes a false step in one point, he has become an offender against them all. For he who said: “You must not commit adultery,” said also: “You must not murder.” If, now, you do not commit adultery but you do murder, you have become a transgressor of law.”
A person might “break” one of the commandments by willfully disobeying it. Or, he might do what was viewed as even worse, namely, teaching fellow Jews subject to the Law that some of its commands were not binding. While the Law covenant was in force, it was an expression of God’s will for his people. Transgression or teaching things contrary to commandments that some may have viewed as even “least” in importance would be apostasy against God.
IS THAT WHAT THAT SCRIPTURE SAYS?Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 03 2006,04:49) Hi kenrch,
Who is the woman who gave birth to the male child in Rev 12? Surely it is Israel who brought forth the Son of Man and those who are saved in him. These are removed to safety and the dragon chases the woman and her other offspring. So who are the offspring of that woman as described in Rev 12 17?
All those in Christ Jesus! Of course Gal 3:28 There can be neither Jew nor Greek, there can be neither bond nor free, there can be no male and female; for ye all are one man in Christ Jesus.I don't guess you're a spiritual Jew.
Hey Brothers, This daylight savings time has me messed up. So I'm going to bed “the new 5am is a hour early!
Hi All,
Interesting subject… I am relatively new to all this and so it is interesting to ready the oposing thoughts you all bring to the table…
I am just interested – in reading one of Kenrch's posts i went on to read a later portion of the book of Gal. In Gal 6:2 I read that there is a “Law of Christ”… what is that Law – does anyone have any idea… is this something Paul has thought up or is it something Christ taugh…
Jesus did say a new commandment I give: “A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another. By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another”. Well to be honest this is confusing because what was so new about that.
The Law had already stated this. “Love your neighbour as yourself”… which Jesus has said there was not greater commandment than these. That being the 1st and 2nd commandment.
Any insight…
Thanks
Oops pressed reply before I should have, Nick is there any way you can change or edit a post when you send something by mistake??? I find it hard to read my posts before I send them and go to view it but press the add reply button by mistake…
Hi All,
Interesting subject… I am relatively new to this topic and so it is interesting to read the oposing thoughts you all bring to the table… I get to look at all the scriptures and see how each forms their opinions. It facinates me…
I am just interested – in reading one of Kenrch's posts I went on to read a later portion of the book of Gal. In Gal 6:2 I read that there is a “Law of Christ”… what is that Law – does anyone have any idea… is this something Paul has thought up or is it something Christ actually taugh…us, or is there something more than the command to love each other as he has loved us, that I have not seen. I feel this is the law of Christ paul talks about here.
Jesus did say a new commandment I give:
“A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another. By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another”.Well to be honest this is confusing because what was so new about what Jesus said here. Is Jesus not just stating the obvious. I say that with humility… just curious as to why this was a new commandment.
The Law of God had already stated this concept. “Love your neighbour as yourself”… which Jesus had said there was no greater commandment than these.*
*That being the 1st and 2nd commandment.
Any insight…
Thanks
Hi A7,
Sorry t8 is the technical man.
What about James 2.8
“the royal law according to scripture,'you shall love your neighbour as yourself'”
and the Law of liberty v12
“So speak and act as those who are to be judged by the Law of liberty”“Where the Spirit is there is liberty” 2Cor 3.17
Christ reversed the Laws from “thou shalt not ”
to
“Love thy neighbour as thyself” and “love one another as I have loved you”We are saved and ruled by the inner law of the Spirit which leads and does not judge. We have the blessed role of continuing to spread the love of God among men and stopping them concentrating on avoiding sin but leading them too to the freedom we enjoy in Christ.
Rom 8 1.
:” For there is now NO CONDEMNATION for those who are in Christ Jesus”.
ALLELUIAHey Nick,
Thanks for that Nick but I still am not sure I understand…
I can not see the difference between “thou shalt not” and “thou shalt” in the long run…because both are commandments that should be adhered to:- to say one is higher than the other because of phraseology does not make sense.
They are just spoken from an opposite approach but they mean the same thing. In fact the Old testament does not say thou shalt not… it says… but, love your neighbour as yourself. Sorry I cant see your reasoning here. James is quoting the Old Testament. (That is the Law of God) – He was referring the word “scripture” to the Old Testament. Surely.
What is the law of liberty? That is such a vague concept…if it does not mean the OT Ten Commandments – if not how do you define this Law of liberty… what do you say it is.
Rom 8:1
There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the SpiritDoes Jesus state anything like this?
Just an interesting thought:
Paul says:
“Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree…” (Galatians 3:13)Quoted from Deuteromony 21:22-23 – seems like Paul uses preacher's license to me… we are told not to take verses out of context. Paul and The New Testament writers seem to do it all the time. How so? Did they have special privileges? You have to stretch its context and twist its meaning to apply it to Jesus.
Does Paul mean Jesus? Jesus is cursed? Nowhere in the Bible does it say the Law was a curse, except by Paul. Jesus certainly does not.
What does Jesus say about the Law? “Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill.” (Matthew 5:17)
Some say this means he fulfilled or brought to an end the Law as was: then what about the Prophets: is what they have said about the future come to fulfilment in Christ… do they no longer hold sway in history is Daniel, Ezekiel and others writing come to an end. No at all. I see this verse as saying that Jesus's life fulfilled all that was spoken about him in the Law and the Prophets.
And what does God say? “Cursed be he that confirmeth not all the words of this law to do them. And all the people shall say, Amen.” (Deut 27:26)
Jesus fuflilled them all – how then can he have been “cursed” by God. That is to negate the word of God. Only those who failed to live by the Law were to be cursed.
In dying for our sins, did Jesus become the “curse” for us? He was perfect, and like the passover lamb he died in the place of those that should face death, which he attoned, once and for all for our sins. Why would he have to become a curse to do this.
I can't find it said that the sacrificial lamb was a “cursed” sacrifice – but it was offered in place of the people. Jesus was offered on the Cross for us as the sacrifical lamb, our substitue, not cursed or becoming a curse for us…
Not too sure if I am making myself clear.
Was Jesus beaten beyond recognition like we see in the Passion of the Christ? The gospel accounts do not seem to suggest this. I am not belittling the work on the Cross by the way – just wanting to get things clear in my thinking:
As far as I can see all the soldiers did was to put a crown of thorns on his head, a purple robe around him, then spat on him, mocked him and hit him on the head a number of times… none of this whipping for hours on his back, stomach and all over his body like we see depicted on the Mel Gibson movie… I know it is a movie but this has been taught in churches I have grown up in… however I do not see it detailed this way in the gospel accounts.
What are your thoughts…
What I think you are looking at is two different covenants.
One is a law of commandments – which is conditional – based on thou shalt and thou shalt not…
The other is unconditional and is based on God's election – called the law of love also referred to as grace.
Does one do away with the other? No the law of grace makes it possible to concede to the law of commandment that it is good. If only we were good enough to satisify its demands.
But by nature we are severely disadvantages whilst still in this flesh.
What does get worked out though it this, out of a heart of love we strive to obey the laws of God's commandments, knowing that if we fail, he will not destroy us.
God looks at the hearts intent, the motive of our inner being, not the failings of our outer man in trying to express this.
But where possible we strive to keep our bodies subject to God and His Word. We do not manifest the attributes of sin because we want to, or even because we can.
If we do then we need to examine ourselves and get right with God.
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