Mandy

Participant

Quote (Stu @ Jan. 14 2008,18:57)

Quote

Most 10 year olds don't believe in fairy tales or santa clause or harry potter?

So yes I do believe a 10 year old is old enough to know what she believes.

Will it change? Maybe, but my 3, 10 year olds still Love God and are strong believers in him.

Have they had their ups and downs in life? Absolutely.

In the mean time they are learning to Love one another and be honest and have morals and faith.

Whats wrong with that pal?

1. The lack of imagination of those who can't give their children an ethical upbringing withoout religious doctrine, which is anti-educational; or the arrogance of those who claim their religion is the only route to morality

2. The fact that children, even at 10, are programmed to believe what they are told by adults, for good evolutionary reasons, so they are not really considering this complicated set of beliefs from a critical point of view as they shloud be allowed to. Does this belief system not say that there awaits some kind of hell (in the views of some, one that has pain and fire and sulfur) for those who are not 'saved'. What on earth does 'saved' mean to a child? What should a child make of a preacher who tells him that his little friend, tragically killed in an accident, is off to hell because he had not 'found Jesus'?

3. What a 10 year old believes in is very different from what an adult believes in. Imaginative fantasy is important for mental development but childish blind devotion to a fantasy cannot be healthy for anyone. The 10 year old loves because it pleases. Pal.

Stuart

STU

So I take it you are under the opinion that Parents should not have the power to teach their children their morals?

Or would you make laws that parents cant teach kids what they believe?

Do you have children?

So I suppose you teach them your own set of morals and rules and beliefs or unbeliefs, is that not true?

What gives you the right to tell others what values they should teach their children?

I take it you would wish for some sort of dictatorship or maybe even a one world government that would dictate what we can teach as right and wrong, is that right?

January 14, 2008 at 8:17 am#78551

Participant

Quote (Jodi @ Jan. 14 2008,18:46)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 13 2008,23:25)

Quote (Jodi @ Jan. 14 2008,18:04)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 13 2008,21:14)

Jodi

You say…

Quote

This is how the doctrine of the Trinity, making Jesus NOT truly coming in the flesh, was established. These were antichrist. These were people who mislead themselves and then went on to mislead many, many others. Upon their resurrection, I believe Jesus will be more concerned with how they treated one another then the doctrine that they held.

Then you say…

Quote

Obviously if God has not called Tow or Stu, then the Spirit of Truth about Jesus is not in them. This does NOT mean however that they don’t have other aspects of God’s Spirit working in them. We should look to the good in people and be patient with what they do or do not know, all is according to the will of God.

Maybe you can explain what you mean.

I am a little troubled by your words here.

First you are implying I am an anti-christ, then you say that Tow and Stu have aspects of Gods Spirit working in them.

If I am not mistaking they are anti-christ and would be the first to admit that Christ Spirit does not work in them.

They dont believe he even existed and think he is a fairy tale!

If I am wrong Tow and Stu please say so.

How can Gods Holy Spirit work in those who are against Christ or who do not believe in him?

Jodi, this is a very unfair judgment against other believers in Jesus.

How do you know the hearts of those who confess Jesus as Lord?

What makes you so sure your way is right?

Jesus said whoever is not against us is for us.

Please explain what you mean.

Sorry WJ, I did not mean to offend you, I have great respect for you. First let me say that I am not avoiding your questions on the Trinity thread. I have many, many words to say with many scriptures to follow, it's just a post that will take some time and effort and I have not gotten to it yet. But I most definitely will in the next couple of days.

Your a trinitarian, I am not. You believe that part of man is immortal, I do not. Therefore we obviously interpret many scriptures differently, and I am looking forward to sharing with you how I see things.

I don't think that having God's Spirit is so black and white. For instance if your a kind person, then you reflect God. If your a cruel person you reflect the antichrist. I believe that all humans reflect parts of both, with some leaning obviously more towards the antichrist, and vise versa. One crucial thing that I believe relating to the antichrists mentioned in the bible is that they were deceivers, but were those antichrists deceiving people out of bad intentions or good, or do we really know? If they themselves believed in the deception then they had good intentions spreading what they thought was the truth.

WJ what I believe and what I say is what makes sense to me. I cannot say that what I believe is the undeniable truth. We won't know until Jesus returns. Honestly, I think that well over half the people who confess Jesus is their saviour, have barely opened their bible and are just repeating what their pastor tells them. Words mean crap it is what is in your heart. Jesus represents a TYPE of man. He represents a humble, kind, patient man. So I see it in this way that people can not know Christ, but God still sees Christ in them. I am not going to write someone off just because they don't believe in Christ NOW.

I do not view an antichrist as someone who has been possessed by some celestial being who is intending harm on people. I believe that an antichrist can simply represent someone who believes a docrinal lie and spreads that lie under ignorant, but good intentions.

I hope this helps WJ.

Good Night and Blessings.

Jodi

You say…

Quote

I hope this helps WJ.

Actually it dosnt. For you still say that an antichrist can be someone who represents a doctrinal lie, which I assume you still mean Trinitarians, yet Tow and Stu do not even believe in the GT and in fact are here to condemn it as being totally false, yet I dont hear you calling them antichrist!

You also say…

Quote

If your a cruel person you reflect the antichrist. I believe that all humans reflect parts of both, with some leaning obviously more towards the antichrist, and vise versa. One crucial thing that I believe relating to the antichrists mentioned in the bible is that they were deceivers, but were those antichrists deceiving people out of bad intentions or good, or do we really know? If they themselves believed in the deception then they had good intentions spreading what they thought was the truth.

What are you trying to say? A deciever is less a deciever if he has good intentions?

I dont think so.

It is true that you really dont know who has good intentions or not, unless it is blatantly obvious that they are here to attack the Gospel Truth.

That is why in my opinion you making judgment against millions of believers calling them antchrist just because their doctrine dosnt agree with yours is wrong.

You have a right to your opinion.

But I find it interesting that it appears you would take the side of an Atheist and a Deist over a believer in Christ.

Wow, you don't get it do you. I just said most people, who confess Jesus, I don't think truly have a grasp on who Jesus really is.

I guess one of my main problems is I know many Trinitarian Christians who have confessed Jesus, and live a most sinful life. On the other han
d I know several atheists who lead Christ like lives. So go figure!

Do I really have to call them antichrists too, are you really that sensitive? Of course I see them as antichrists as well. The truth is …through Jesus Christ YHWH saved mankind, but honesty the TRUTH GOES FAR FAR beyond those WORDS, so when some one says, such and such has been born again by confessing Christ and being water baptized (a PHYSICAL ritual) I honestly could care less, that does not mean anything to me.

Once again what I believe is my opinion, I do not claim to have some sort of undeniable truth. Heck, I could just as well be an antichrist myself! Of course I hope I'm not, but I have written a lot of stuff on this forum and I am guessing somewhere in there I was wrong about something.

Jodi

You say…

Quote

Wow, you don't get it do you. I just said most people, who confess Jesus, I don't think truly have a grasp on who Jesus really is.

No I do get it. I know exactly what you mean.

So lets just leave it there.

We all have a right to our opinions!

January 14, 2008 at 8:19 am#78552

Stu

Participant

Hi WorshippingJesus

Quote

So I take it you are under the opinion that Parents should not have the power to teach their children their morals? Or would you make laws that parents cant teach kids what they believe?

I am all for parents educating their children. There is a difference between that and indoctrinating them.

Quote

What gives you the right to tell others what values they should teach their children?

I don’t have that right. I do object to the pressure that parents place on their children to adopt their values to the exclusion of other ways of thinking and behaving ethically. Adults’ influence over children has to be exercised responsibly.

Quote

I take it you would wish for some sort of dictatorship or maybe even a one world government that would dictate what we can teach as right and wrong, is that right?

I believe in education, not indoctrination or dictatorship. Unfortunately the latter two seem par for the course for fundamentalist christianity.

Stuart

January 14, 2008 at 9:27 am#78555

Son of Light

Participant

Quote (Stu @ Jan. 14 2008,19:19)

Hi WorshippingJesus

Quote

So I take it you are under the opinion that Parents should not have the power to teach their children their morals? Or would you make laws that parents cant teach kids what they believe?

I am all for parents educating their children. There is a difference between that and indoctrinating them.

Quote

What gives you the right to tell others what values they should teach their children?

Quote

I take it you would wish for some sort of dictatorship or maybe even a one world government that would dictate what we can teach as right and wrong, is that right?

I believe in education, not indoctrination or dictatorship. Unfortunately the latter two seem par for the course for fundamentalist christianity.

Stuart

I think you make good points Stu. But, I also see WJ point as well.

The child will grow up and can revaluate (which is what happens anways) her/his position.

If it is a sane non-threatening religious system that teaches children the faith and values of his/her parents, I don't think that seems unreasonable.

Further more without God you have no objective standards. Therefore there is no such thing as right and wrong. Child abuse in a godless world is just a concept driven by propogation of the species.

In fact, it is an evolutionary trait that is behind the times because it did not anticipate our modern world and the ease at which humans can now survive. We survive to well now and now natural selection is pratically ground to halt.

Your emotional programming is getting in the way of your genes survival. If other parents abuse or kill their children then your genes will have less competition in the world for survival.

January 14, 2008 at 10:15 am#78556

Stu

Participant

Hi Son of Light

Quote

The child will grow up and can revaluate (which is what happens anways) her/his position.

Why give them something so questionable that it is material for resentment (which it seems to be even here)? What would you say to the pastor who may, in his christian faith terms, ‘correctly’ say that a child’s little unsaved friend, killed in an accident, is bound for hell? I expect you would be pretty upset. That is a reasonable statement for mainstream christianity, though. In fact it has occurred and the person who was told about her hell-bound little friend thought it a worse form of abuse than the sexual abuse she had suffered at the hands of a priest.

Quote

If it is a sane non-threatening religious system that teaches children the faith and values of his/her parents, I don't think that seems unreasonable.

What religious system is as you describe? At least Humanist and Buddhism don’t require the death of anyone, I suppose.

Quote

Further more without God you have no objective standards.

Bollocks. Sorry to be crude, but few other words do that self-evident lie any justice.

Quote

Therefore there is no such thing as right and wrong. Child abuse in a godless world is just a concept driven by propogation of the species. In fact, it is an evolutionary trait that is behind the times because it did not anticipate our modern world and the ease at which humans can now survive.

I don’t even think you know what that means. It certainly baffles me.

Quote

We survive to well now and now natural selection is pratically ground to halt.

Actually, even though we have the slowing effect of modern medicine, recent research shows that evolution is proceeding at a very fast pace due to the explosion in the human population (and hence the wide variation available for natural selection to work on).

Quote

Your emotional programming is getting in the way of your genes survival. If other parents abuse or kill their children then your genes will have less competition in the world for survival.

There are advantages for your genes in you bringing up your children well; also if you help bring up your nephews and nieces (you share genes with them too); and in helping the survival of other children who are farther relatives of yours. If Earth was subject to alien attack there would be a genetic advantage to you in helping the survival of the human with the least genetic similarity to you. As you indicate, you are programmed to care for children in general terms. It may be ‘intended’ to be specifically for children closest to you, but the result of that programming might result in a more widespread care for others. That is certainly what can be observed in human altruism. Others think that no matter how selfless the act, it ends up being a selfish one.

Stuart

January 14, 2008 at 10:55 am#78559

Proclaimer

Participant

Quote (Stu @ Jan. 14 2008,19:19)

Hi WorshippingJesus

Quote

So I take it you are under the opinion that Parents should not have the power to teach their children their morals? Or would you make laws that parents cant teach kids what they believe?

I am all for parents educating their children. There is a difference between that and indoctrinating them.

Quote

What gives you the right to tell others what values they should teach their children?

Quote

I take it you would wish for some sort of dictatorship or maybe even a one world government that would dictate what we can teach as right and wrong, is that right?

I believe in education, not indoctrination or dictatorship. Unfortunately the latter two seem par for the course for fundamentalist christianity.

Stuart

Like evolution and the theory that man came from apes.

Indoctrination is often not noticed by the one who is indoctrinated.

You need to look at your own belief system Stu.

January 14, 2008 at 11:54 am#78562

Participant

Quote (Is 1:18 @ Jan. 14 2008,00:46)

Quote (Towshab @ Jan. 14 2008,07:51)

Leave it to Ken to show the true nature of Christian love.

All I have ever seen you do here is taunt people Towshab. Every post in this thread from you was of that nature. What a poor representative you are of your judaic faith, you have written nothing to commend it to me. Personally I would like to see you banned long before Kenrch is, he has contributed a lot over the years. You have contributed nothing of value IMO.

Haha, thanks for keeping up. I am a deist, IS. In any case, I know the real reason you want to see me banned and it is the same concept that Christianity has as its main component: fear. Fear of hell, fear of ridicule. As I see by the way that the “Christians” are treating Not3in1, they are certainly browbeating and pushing some fear-factor tactics at her.

Its similar attitudes that I saw from personal Christian acquaintances that made me see the fallacy of Christianity. If these people reflected the affect Jesus was supposed to have on their lives, Jesus was not someone I wanted to know anymore.

Christians are great in welcoming a new convert but should you start to question some things about the faith, you will find yourself as the leper outside the camp. Part of this has to do with their own doubts and fears so its best to avoid the person asking the tough questions.

Just like here. Many Christians do not like me on here because I present things that push their faith. If your faith is based on truth, what's the big deal? You should be able to pat me one the head and say “that's nice” and laugh. But you cannot.

So you say just because Ken gets nasty with people when they don't agree with him, that is commendable?

January 14, 2008 at 12:06 pm#78563

Participant

Quote (Stu @ Jan. 14 2008,01:47)

That's simply unbelievable. Why did others follow? Peer pressure, or the need for approval from parents or other adults. If the bible was submitted for a censor's rating today, it would be certified for 18 and above on its content. Ten year olds really should not have access to such nasty fiction, and therefore should not be under the pressure of their families to belive something they should not be allowed to read about. To me this is a form of child abuse.

Stuart

Stu,

I remember from my years in church that they used to throw out statistics about people accepting Christ at certain ages. I can't remember how it fell out, but as expected, the older one got the less likely a conversion to Christianity would take place. I don't think it takes much to figure out why.

January 14, 2008 at 12:13 pm#78564

Participant

Quote (Stu @ Jan. 14 2008,02:07)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 14 2008,18:57)

For your information, the other three that followed after the little girl were adults well over 18.

So I suppose you wouldnt let your 10 year old decide for themselves what they want to believe?

Or would you make them believe what you want?

So tell me do you make your children read evolutionist propaganda? Is it ok for your 10 Year old to learn sex education in school?

Well those over 18 should know better, then. How cute of them.

Sure, I would let a 10 year old believe in what they choose, but think for yourself what the chances of a 10 year-old child of evangelical christians deciding to become a muslim, at that age. Or vice-versa. To claim that a child has a real choice in that situation I think is to delude oneself, unless you can be genuinely even-handed about what is really convincingly known to be true about Jesus, which is virtually nothing.

Please tell me what 'evolutionist propaganda' is, unless you mean a biology textbook of facts about natural history.

I think the reason the rates of teenage pregnancy are much higher in areas with high rates of religious belief is because the standard of health education is so limited by the ultra-conservative views that are so prevalent in such places.
Sex education at 10? Depends what the objective of it is.

Stuart

After many years in the Christian church, I can tell you from experience that conversion typically comes with emotion. Or rather, let me say, it is the result of emotion. I saw where many had some big struggle in their lives and turning to Jesus was supposed to deliver them from it. For many people, this works. That is why AA has reliance upon a higher power as one of its approaches.

Based on experience, I would guess that the ones who came after the 10 year old did so because they were touched by the reaction of the 10 years old. I've seen enough similar circumstances to see the setup. Get a crying 10 year old in the altar and you'll get more people out of the pews.

Christianity is a very emotional religion. Most of the Christians I knew were very emotional on Sunday and very devoid of emotion the other 6 days.

January 14, 2008 at 1:23 pm#78565

Participant

Quote (kenrch @ Jan. 14 2008,11:59)

That's right you people have NO eyes and for the most part are Satan's Joke!

Kenrch I don't think you should be kicked off. You've helped out a lot. Those seeking the truth would be wise not to kick you off as you are a great asset to the continuing learning of the gospel. You've helped me out greatly.

Your quote, though, is judgemental.

January 14, 2008 at 4:13 pm#78572

Participant

Quote (Towshab @ Jan. 14 2008,23:06)

Quote (Stu @ Jan. 14 2008,01:47)

Stuart

Stu,

Tow

Because your experience was bad or not real dosnt mean that theirs is not.

You act like your experience in life and the conclusions you draw is the only truth.

What makes you think that these people are not genuous?

My conversion 34 years ago was a miracle, and I still believe what I believed then.

I have not wished ill or evil on anyone since my conversion but in fact have learned to love my enemys.

But you would question my experience in life and tell me its not real but its a lie, its a fairy tale, and that my faith leads to killing people.

But what do you know about me or them.

Why would you judge all Christians because of your experience and create a prototype of christianity?

Are you saying all of Christianity has done no good?

If someone does good whether they are Christian or not, then that should be commended.

And if someone does evil whether Christiian or not, then that should be condemned.

But creating prototypes or casting judgment upon all because you are biased or because some wrong has been done, is wrong.

Are you one who subscribes to the belief that all Islamics are evil because there are Islamic terrorist?

January 14, 2008 at 4:21 pm#78574

Participant

Quote (Towshab @ Jan. 14 2008,22:54)

Quote (Is 1:18 @ Jan. 14 2008,00:46)

Quote (Towshab @ Jan. 14 2008,07:51)

Leave it to Ken to show the true nature of Christian love.

So you say just because Ken gets nasty with people when they don't agree with him, that is commendable?

Tow

I dont see these words in Isa 1:18s statement.

Quote

So you say just because Ken gets nasty with people when they don't agree with him, that is commendable?

The point he is making is he dosnt think you have contributed anything of value here, whereas kenrch over the years as a member has.

Pretty clear I think.

Seems you arr the one getting offensive here.

Are you scared?

Why didnt you just say “thats nice and laugh”?

January 14, 2008 at 4:52 pm#78575

Participant

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 14 2008,10:13)

Quote (Towshab @ Jan. 14 2008,23:06)

Quote (Stu @ Jan. 14 2008,01:47)

Stuart

Stu,

Tow

Because your experience was bad or not real dosnt mean that theirs is not.

Never said it was.

Quote

You act like your experience in life and the conclusions you draw is the only truth.

As do you. Your point?

Quote

What makes you think that these people are not genuous?

My conversion 34 years ago was a miracle, and I still believe what I believed then.

How is believing in Jesus considered a miracle? if I believe in something, anything, is that to be considered a miracle?

Quote

I have not wished ill or evil on anyone since my conversion but in fact have learned to love my enemys.

What makes you think that non-Christians can not experience that same level of benevolence? Just because it took a conversion for you to stop being a ertain way does not mean others need it to change their attitudes. Ever heard of secular humanism?

Quote

But you would question my experience in life and tell me its not real but its a lie, its a fairy tale, and that my faith leads to killing people.

Show me where I ever accused you of such. Your experience may very well be real but its kind of odd you would call it an “experience”.

And the fact is, there is historical evidence that people called themselves Christian killed Jews. I did not say you would do this but their influence to do so came from the GT.

Quote

But what do you know about me or them.

Why would you judge all Christians because of your experience and create a prototype of christianity?

Gee, I don't know. Maybe because I know of many others who are also abandoning it?

Quote

Are you saying all of Christianity has done no good?

No, but on the other hand, are you willing to say that no Muslim has done any good, no athiest, no agnostic, no Buddhist? Is our ability to do good or bad based solely on our religious affiliation? Think before you answer that one.

Quote

If someone does good whether they are Christian or not, then that should be commended.

And if someone does evil whether Christiian or not, then that should be condemned.

But creating prototypes or casting judgment upon all because you are biased or because some wrong has been done, is wrong.

And where in my post above do you see any of that?

Quote

Are you one who subscribes to the belief that all Islamics are evil because there are Islamic terrorist?

No, never said I did. You, just like many others on here, pinpoint certain aspects of my posts and latch on to them. Just because I am honest and tell you that there were many Jews killed in the name of Christianity does not mean I think all Christians want to kill Jews. But I also am honest when I say that much of antisemitism gets its influence from the GT. The only people who will not accept that are Christians.

January 14, 2008 at 4:56 pm#78576

Participant

Quote (Jodi @ Jan. 14 2008,18:46)

On the other hand I know several atheists who lead Christ like lives. So go figure!

If they don't believe in God or upon Jesus then how can they be Christ like? Christ-like in your mind seems to be of a different merit.

January 14, 2008 at 4:57 pm#78577

Participant

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 14 2008,10:21)

Quote (Towshab @ Jan. 14 2008,22:54)

Quote (Is 1:18 @ Jan. 14 2008,00:46)

Quote (Towshab @ Jan. 14 2008,07:51)

Leave it to Ken to show the true nature of Christian love.

So you say just because Ken gets nasty with people when they don't agree with him, that is commendable?

Tow

I dont see these words in Isa 1:18s statement.

Quote

So you say just because Ken gets nasty with people when they don't agree with him, that is commendable?

The point he is making is he dosnt think you have contributed anything of value here, whereas kenrch over the years as a member has.

And people should be banned because they do not contribute anything of value? I don't see that in the rules. Can you point me to the rule that says that?

Face it, the real reason people want me banned is because I put out the questions and so few here have the answers. Its much easier to eliminate the questioner and live in a bubble.

Quote

Pretty clear I think.

Seems you arr the one getting offensive here.

Are you scared?

Not in the slightest. Why should I be? I have too much scriptural evidence from Tanakh to refute any claim Jesus has so I can't see where I need to be scared.

Quote

Why didnt you just say “thats nice and laugh”?

Because I know the real reason people want me gone. If your faith and knowldge is strong you should be able to refute me. If not, then you have trouble. People want to get rid of the trouble.

January 14, 2008 at 5:05 pm#78578

Participant

Quote (Towshab @ Jan. 15 2008,03:57)

Because I know the real reason people want me gone. If your faith and knowldge is strong you should be able to refute me. If not, then you have trouble. People want to get rid of the trouble.

It is always good to discuss different beliefs in hopes of coming to a solution on certain matters. Getting rid of the trouble is not getting rid of you – in my opinion. I would like nothing more than to help you to come to an agreement with the New Testament.

More Than Conquerors

Romans 8:28

28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose.

January 14, 2008 at 5:49 pm#78588

Jodi

Participant

Quote (acertainchap @ Jan. 14 2008,08:56)

Quote (Jodi @ Jan. 14 2008,18:46)

On the other hand I know several atheists who lead Christ like lives. So go figure!

If they don't believe in God or upon Jesus then how can they be Christ like? Christ-like in your mind seems to be of a different merit.

Hmmm, well Christ was humble. I know an aitheist who is very humble, so in that way I consider him to be like Christ.

January 14, 2008 at 6:23 pm#78590

Stu

Participant

Hi t8

Quote

Like evolution and the theory that man came from apes.
Indoctrination is often not noticed by the one who is indoctrinated.
You need to look at your own belief system Stu.

I have evidence to support what I believe about the fact of being an ape and having a common ancestry with all of life, and it is real, ‘seen’ evidence, too. If I have been indoctrinated it is self-indoctrination; I have no formal education in biology past Form 5 science (which in any case does not deal with evolution). Isn’t it interesting that while there is one fact of evolution, with a set of ideas of natural selection and a minimal debate about which factors are most influential in that process, this forum represents as many different christian ‘churches’ as there are people contributing. Is it religious belief or scientific fact that has more credibility?

Stuart

January 14, 2008 at 6:28 pm#78591