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Quote (Gene @ July 22 2009,04:21) Paladin ……….the issue is (BORN) of the (HOLY) SPIRIT, i was addressing. Spirit is simply Intellect it is NOT a being of any kind it is purely Knowledge and exists in a state of good and evil, clean and unclean spirits (intellects) Within a body form. When an unclean spirit (intellect) leaves a man (IT) goes about in (Arid ) places seeking rest. why? because if spirit (intellect) (exists alone) it is useless, and can effect nothing, but when it is in a Body it can animates it. Much like a book in a library it is useless unless it is taken and read and it can effect who reads it, because He is taking it into his thinking. Spirit it self is (NOT) a being it is the intellect controlling the being. Holy Spirit is the Intellect (MIND) of GOD and if it is in you it will produce the fruits of it in you. When we are born of Holy Spirit we do not sin “because he that is in you is greater then you and changes your Will, “for He works in us BOTH to WILL and do of HIS good pleasure”. For God who is Holy SPIRIT ( HOLY INTELLECT) is in you, this is His seed and it will cause us to cease from sin and produce in us the Fruit of this intellect or Spirit. IMO peace and love to you and yours brother………………….gene
Spirit is not “simply intellect.” There is no scripture that so teaches.“Folly” is a characteristic of intellect, being a degrading of intellect. God charged his angels with folly. That didn't change the fact they were angels, but it did change how their intellect was perceived.
“Intellect” is a word referencing the ability of sentient beings to think, perceive, comprehend, understand, and several other functions of the ability to contemplate.
“Intellect” can include such concepts as “brilliant” which is understood to reflect as “He has a brilliant intellect.” But it can also include such concepts as “foolish” which is understood to reflect as “He has a very foolish intellect.”
NEITHER has any bearing on the spiritualness of the spirit. It has to do with the perceptionability of the mind. The mind is not spirit.
Scripture speaks of thoughts as though they begin in the heart, but it is a figure of speach relating to us that our thought processes come from our inner center. It is an allegorical figure of speech.
“As a man thinketh in his heart, so is he” is a figurative reference to a blood pump, but we know its referential perception.
“Spirit” is that sharing of God which God places in every living man, and which, upon our death, returns to God who gave it, while the flesh returns to the dust whence it came.
Paladin…….Jesus said the (words) i speak unto you (ARE) SPIRIT and LIFE. If we look very closely at what he said it clarifies much. First it is reasonable and logical when looked at correctly. What is a (Word) is it not the expression of ones intellect, everything that GOD communicates to us in general is through (words) Word form perceptions in our Minds , they are formed by (wind) passing through our vocal cords. (Spirit is also referred to as wind) Something not seen but has an effect that can be seen, as when a wind blows through a tree, you see the effect but can not see the force causing it. Like wise Spirit (words) are the effect of ones Intellect. Now there is a GODLY intellect or Spirit, it is called (HOLY) because it is a special unique intellect expressed in (WORDS) it is very word of GOD and they express the (HIGHER) intellect of GOD to US. Spirit is (NOT) a being IT is INTELLECT and is expressed in WORDS. So Jesus was correct in saying the WORD i am Telling you (ARE) Spirit and LIFE> When we are told to try the Spirits, we are being told to try the (WORDS) someone is saying because they proceed from His intellect and represent His thought or mind, “So a man thinketh so He is”. So if we want to know about a person we need to listen to his words and if they are not in accordance with the word of GOD we can make a Judgment , that is if we have the WORDS of GOD in US. IF GOD the Father (OPENS) our minds to recieve HIS WORD and Retain them , they (the words) began to change our thinking and we begin to conform to the Image of GOD as Jesus did. It all about WORDS which (ARE) Spirit which is INTELLECT, and if those words are GODS WORDS in them, then those WORDS (ARE) HOLY INTELLECT or SPIRIT. Jesus expressed it exactly right, The words he spoke (ARE) SPIRIT. IMO
peace and love Brother……………………..gene
Paladin/Jodi
Reading your posts to each other on the sons of God that took daughters of men to wife and had children with them and I tend to agree with Jodi.
If they were angels it would have said angels (malak) – it was sons of God – When you read the geneology of Jesus, Adam is the son of God,
Paladin,
Tartarus is of pagan greek origin – the place does not actually exist
This is what the concordant website has to say and it makes sense to me ->
the apostle Peter, as his own figure of likeness, coins the verbal form tartarosas, which he adapts from the pagan Greek noun, Tartaros, which was the name of the Greek unseen world. It appears in works such as Plato’s Phaedo and Homer’s Iliad. It is the name given to the murky abyss deep beneath Hades in which the sins of insurgent and defeated immortals (such as Kronos, or the Titans) are punished.
indent.gif (54 bytes)When Peter says that “God spares not sinning messengers,” but “[subjects them] to-CAVERNS OF-GLOOM TARTARUSing” (CONCORDANT GREEK TEXT sublinear, p.667), “tartarusing” is a coined verbal form used as a figure of speech. In employing this expression, Peter is by no means giving legitimacy to the Greeks’ fantastic notions about their unseen world, called Tartarus. Instead, he is simply adapting this word for his own purpose. Since there is a certain likeness between that to which God actually subjects sinning messengers and that to which the Greeks imagined their gods to be subjected in punishment, Peter employs this name for the Greek underworld accordingly.
indent.gif (54 bytes)Sinning messengers are decidedly not in “Tartarus.” Except in the deluded minds of Greeks idolators, Tartarus does not exist. Indeed, according to the Scriptures, the sinning messengers are not even said to be undergoing chastening judging at present. Instead, in an estate which may somewhat be likened to the taverns of gloom in the Greeks’ fanciful Tartarus, they are said to be “being kept for chastening judging” (2 Peter 2:4). Jude adds that “messengers who keep not their own sovereignty, but leave their own habitation, [Yahweh, cp Jude 5] has kept in imperceptible bonds under gloom for the judging of the great day” (Jude 6). Since “chastening” kolasis speaks of discipline (i.e., “training”; literally, “hitting”) with a view to amendment, we may rejoice that for this they are being kept (cp Heb.12:7-11).
http://www.concordant.org/expohtm….re.html
John the Baptist was a messenger {angel}
Mat 11:10 For this is he, of whom it is written, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.
You quote Psalm 78:49 as evidence of heavenly angels but the context says the messengers of his anger and wrath is pestilence and plagues
Psa 78:43 How he had wrought his signs in Egypt, and his wonders in the field of Zoan:
Psa 78:44 And had turned their rivers into blood; and their floods, that they could not drink.
Psa 78:45 He sent divers sorts of flies among them, which devoured them; and frogs, which destroyed them.
Psa 78:46 He gave also their increase unto the caterpiller, and their labour unto the locust.
Psa 78:47 He destroyed their vines with hail, and their sycomore trees with frost.
Psa 78:48 He gave up their cattle also to the hail, and their flocks to hot thunderbolts.
Psa 78:49 He cast upon them the fierceness of his anger, wrath, and indignation, and trouble, by sending evil angels among them.
Psa 78:50 He made a way to his anger; he spared not their soul from death, but gave their life over to the pestilence;
Psa 78:51 And smote all the firstborn in Egypt; the chief of their strength in the tabernacles of Ham:Quote (Gene @ July 23 2009,03:50) Paladin…….Jesus said the (words) i speak unto you (ARE) SPIRIT and LIFE. If we look very closely at what he said it clarifies much. First it is reasonable and logical when looked at correctly. What is a (Word) is it not the expression of ones intellect, everything that GOD communicates to us in general is through (words) Word form perceptions in our Minds , they are formed by (wind) passing through our vocal cords. (Spirit is also referred to as wind) Something not seen but has an effect that can be seen, as when a wind blows through a tree, you see the effect but can not see the force causing it. Like wise Spirit (words) are the effect of ones Intellect. Now there is a GODLY intellect or Spirit, it is called (HOLY) because it is a special unique intellect expressed in (WORDS) it is very word of GOD and they express the (HIGHER) intellect of GOD to US. Spirit is (NOT) a being IT is INTELLECT and is expressed in WORDS. So Jesus was correct in saying the WORD i am Telling you (ARE) Spirit and LIFE> When we are told to try the Spirits, we are being told to try the (WORDS) someone is saying because they proceed from His intellect and represent His thought or mind, “So a man thinketh so He is”. So if we want to know about a person we need to listen to his words and if they are not in accordance with the word of GOD we can make a Judgment , that is if we have the WORDS of GOD in US. IF GOD the Father (OPENS) our minds to recieve HIS WORD and Retain them , they (the words) began to change our thinking and we begin to conform to the Image of GOD as Jesus did. It all about WORDS which (ARE) Spirit which is INTELLECT, and if those words are GODS WORDS in them those WORDS (ARE) HOLY INTELLECT or SPIRIT. Jesus expressed it exactly right, The words he spoke (ARE) SPIRIT. IMO peace and love Brother……………………..gene
Some of the posts addressed to me certainly do not reflect the intellect of the one posting. It reflects doctrinal bias. Intellect, properly applied through that spirit of which you speak, would have brought about a far different solution than trinity.Peace!
Love!
Brother!
Quote (meerkat @ July 23 2009,22:56) Paladin/Jodi Reading your posts to each other on the sons of God that took daughters of men to wife and had children with them and I tend to agree with Jodi.
If they were angels it would have said angels (malak) – it was sons of God – When you read the geneology of Jesus, Adam is the son of God,
Paladin,
Tartarus is of pagan greek origin – the place does not actually exist
This is what the concordant website has to say and it makes sense to me ->
the apostle Peter, as his own figure of likeness, coins the verbal form tartarosas, which he adapts from the pagan Greek noun, Tartaros, which was the name of the Greek unseen world. It appears in works such as Plato’s Phaedo and Homer’s Iliad. It is the name given to the murky abyss deep beneath Hades in which the sins of insurgent and defeated immortals (such as Kronos, or the Titans) are punished.
indent.gif (54 bytes)When Peter says that “God spares not sinning messengers,” but “[subjects them] to-CAVERNS OF-GLOOM TARTARUSing” (CONCORDANT GREEK TEXT sublinear, p.667), “tartarusing” is a coined verbal form used as a figure of speech. In employing this expression, Peter is by no means giving legitimacy to the Greeks’ fantastic notions about their unseen world, called Tartarus. Instead, he is simply adapting this word for his own purpose. Since there is a certain likeness between that to which God actually subjects sinning messengers and that to which the Greeks imagined their gods to be subjected in punishment, Peter employs this name for the Greek underworld accordingly.
indent.gif (54 bytes)Sinning messengers are decidedly not in “Tartarus.” Except in the deluded minds of Greeks idolators, Tartarus does not exist. Indeed, according to the Scriptures, the sinning messengers are not even said to be undergoing chastening judging at present. Instead, in an estate which may somewhat be likened to the taverns of gloom in the Greeks’ fanciful Tartarus, they are said to be “being kept for chastening judging” (2 Peter 2:4). Jude adds that “messengers who keep not their own sovereignty, but leave their own habitation, [Yahweh, cp Jude 5] has kept in imperceptible bonds under gloom for the judging of the great day” (Jude 6). Since “chastening” kolasis speaks of discipline (i.e., “training”; literally, “hitting”) with a view to amendment, we may rejoice that for this they are being kept (cp Heb.12:7-11).
http://www.concordant.org/expohtm….re.html
John the Baptist was a messenger {angel}
Mat 11:10 For this is he, of whom it is written, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.
You quote Psalm 78:49 as evidence of heavenly angels but the context says the messengers of his anger and wrath is pestilence and plagues
Psa 78:43 How he had wrought his signs in Egypt, and his wonders in the field of Zoan:
Psa 78:44 And had turned their rivers into blood; and their floods, that they could not drink.
Psa 78:45 He sent divers sorts of flies among them, which devoured them; and frogs, which destroyed them.
Psa 78:46 He gave also their increase unto the caterpiller, and their labour unto the locust.
Psa 78:47 He destroyed their vines with hail, and their sycomore trees with frost.
Psa 78:48 He gave up their cattle also to the hail, and their flocks to hot thunderbolts.
Psa 78:49 He cast upon them the fierceness of his anger, wrath, and indignation, and trouble, by sending evil angels among them.
Psa 78:50 He made a way to his anger; he spared not their soul from death, but gave their life over to the pestilence;
Psa 78:51 And smote all the firstborn in Egypt; the chief of their strength in the tabernacles of Ham:
Thank you for your input. You did not deal with the defining issue in my OP.The defining issue of my OP is the proper application of “oikeeteerion.” Men do not have it. Men die to attain it.
Angels have it. Angels abandon it to live among men and to die like men.
All the dots are connected in the OP so I will not readdress them here.
Paladin…..brother please don't get offended at my posts, I do agree with much of what you post, specially regarding Trinity and Preexistences. Just some things i have a different view point on. Please don't get discouraged by me brother.
peace and love to you and yours……………………….gene
Quote (Paladin @ July 24 2009,03:06) Quote (meerkat @ July 23 2009,22:56) Paladin/Jodi Reading your posts to each other on the sons of God that took daughters of men to wife and had children with them and I tend to agree with Jodi.
If they were angels it would have said angels (malak) – it was sons of God – When you read the geneology of Jesus, Adam is the son of God,
Paladin,
Tartarus is of pagan greek origin – the place does not actually exist
This is what the concordant website has to say and it makes sense to me ->
the apostle Peter, as his own figure of likeness, coins the verbal form tartarosas, which he adapts from the pagan Greek noun, Tartaros, which was the name of the Greek unseen world. It appears in works such as Plato’s Phaedo and Homer’s Iliad. It is the name given to the murky abyss deep beneath Hades in which the sins of insurgent and defeated immortals (such as Kronos, or the Titans) are punished.
indent.gif (54 bytes)When Peter says that “God spares not sinning messengers,” but “[subjects them] to-CAVERNS OF-GLOOM TARTARUSing” (CONCORDANT GREEK TEXT sublinear, p.667), “tartarusing” is a coined verbal form used as a figure of speech. In employing this expression, Peter is by no means giving legitimacy to the Greeks’ fantastic notions about their unseen world, called Tartarus. Instead, he is simply adapting this word for his own purpose. Since there is a certain likeness between that to which God actually subjects sinning messengers and that to which the Greeks imagined their gods to be subjected in punishment, Peter employs this name for the Greek underworld accordingly.
indent.gif (54 bytes)Sinning messengers are decidedly not in “Tartarus.” Except in the deluded minds of Greeks idolators, Tartarus does not exist. Indeed, according to the Scriptures, the sinning messengers are not even said to be undergoing chastening judging at present. Instead, in an estate which may somewhat be likened to the taverns of gloom in the Greeks’ fanciful Tartarus, they are said to be “being kept for chastening judging” (2 Peter 2:4). Jude adds that “messengers who keep not their own sovereignty, but leave their own habitation, [Yahweh, cp Jude 5] has kept in imperceptible bonds under gloom for the judging of the great day” (Jude 6). Since “chastening” kolasis speaks of discipline (i.e., “training”; literally, “hitting”) with a view to amendment, we may rejoice that for this they are being kept (cp Heb.12:7-11).
http://www.concordant.org/expohtm….re.html
John the Baptist was a messenger {angel}
Mat 11:10 For this is he, of whom it is written, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.
You quote Psalm 78:49 as evidence of heavenly angels but the context says the messengers of his anger and wrath is pestilence and plagues
Psa 78:43 How he had wrought his signs in Egypt, and his wonders in the field of Zoan:
Psa 78:44 And had turned their rivers into blood; and their floods, that they could not drink.
Psa 78:45 He sent divers sorts of flies among them, which devoured them; and frogs, which destroyed them.
Psa 78:46 He gave also their increase unto the caterpiller, and their labour unto the locust.
Psa 78:47 He destroyed their vines with hail, and their sycomore trees with frost.
Psa 78:48 He gave up their cattle also to the hail, and their flocks to hot thunderbolts.
Psa 78:49 He cast upon them the fierceness of his anger, wrath, and indignation, and trouble, by sending evil angels among them.
Psa 78:50 He made a way to his anger; he spared not their soul from death, but gave their life over to the pestilence;
Psa 78:51 And smote all the firstborn in Egypt; the chief of their strength in the tabernacles of Ham:
Thank you for your input. You did not deal with the defining issue in my OP.The defining issue of my OP is the proper application of “oikeeteerion.” Men do not have it. Men die to attain it.
Angels have it. Angels abandon it to live among men and to die like men.
All the dots are connected in the OP so I will not readdress them here.
It seems to me you are relying on the 2 uses of the greek word oikeeteerion must mean the same thing, when we see other words used that do not have the same meaning in all of the uses ->G32 for examplegoing by your logic John the baptist must be an angel and not a man
Quote (meerkat @ July 24 2009,08:38) Quote (Paladin @ July 24 2009,03:06) Quote (meerkat @ July 23 2009,22:56) Paladin/Jodi Reading your posts to each other on the sons of God that took daughters of men to wife and had children with them and I tend to agree with Jodi.
If they were angels it would have said angels (malak) – it was sons of God – When you read the geneology of Jesus, Adam is the son of God,
Paladin,
Tartarus is of pagan greek origin – the place does not actually exist
This is what the concordant website has to say and it makes sense to me ->
the apostle Peter, as his own figure of likeness, coins the verbal form tartarosas, which he adapts from the pagan Greek noun, Tartaros, which was the name of the Greek unseen world. It appears in works such as Plato’s Phaedo and Homer’s Iliad. It is the name given to the murky abyss deep beneath Hades in which the sins of insurgent and defeated immortals (such as Kronos, or the Titans) are punished.
indent.gif (54 bytes)When Peter says that “God spares not sinning messengers,” but “[subjects them] to-CAVERNS OF-GLOOM TARTARUSing” (CONCORDANT GREEK TEXT sublinear, p.667), “tartarusing” is a coined verbal form used as a figure of speech. In employing this expression, Peter is by no means giving legitimacy to the Greeks’ fantastic notions about their unseen world, called Tartarus. Instead, he is simply adapting this word for his own purpose. Since there is a certain likeness between that to which God actually subjects sinning messengers and that to which the Greeks imagined their gods to be subjected in punishment, Peter employs this name for the Greek underworld accordingly.
indent.gif (54 bytes)Sinning messengers are decidedly not in “Tartarus.” Except in the deluded minds of Greeks idolators, Tartarus does not exist. Indeed, according to the Scriptures, the sinning messengers are not even said to be undergoing chastening judging at present. Instead, in an estate which may somewhat be likened to the taverns of gloom in the Greeks’ fanciful Tartarus, they are said to be “being kept for chastening judging” (2 Peter 2:4). Jude adds that “messengers who keep not their own sovereignty, but leave their own habitation, [Yahweh, cp Jude 5] has kept in imperceptible bonds under gloom for the judging of the great day” (Jude 6). Since “chastening” kolasis speaks of discipline (i.e., “training”; literally, “hitting”) with a view to amendment, we may rejoice that for this they are being kept (cp Heb.12:7-11).
http://www.concordant.org/expohtm….re.html
John the Baptist was a messenger {angel}
Mat 11:10 For this is he, of whom it is written, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.
You quote Psalm 78:49 as evidence of heavenly angels but the context says the messengers of his anger and wrath is pestilence and plagues
Psa 78:43 How he had wrought his signs in Egypt, and his wonders in the field of Zoan:
Psa 78:44 And had turned their rivers into blood; and their floods, that they could not drink.
Psa 78:45 He sent divers sorts of flies among them, which devoured them; and frogs, which destroyed them.
Psa 78:46 He gave also their increase unto the caterpiller, and their labour unto the locust.
Psa 78:47 He destroyed their vines with hail, and their sycomore trees with frost.
Psa 78:48 He gave up their cattle also to the hail, and their flocks to hot thunderbolts.
Psa 78:49 He cast upon them the fierceness of his anger, wrath, and indignation, and trouble, by sending evil angels among them.
Psa 78:50 He made a way to his anger; he spared not their soul from death, but gave their life over to the pestilence;
Psa 78:51 And smote all the firstborn in Egypt; the chief of their strength in the tabernacles of Ham:
Thank you for your input. You did not deal with the defining issue in my OP.The defining issue of my OP is the proper application of “oikeeteerion.” Men do not have it. Men die to attain it.
Angels have it. Angels abandon it to live among men and to die like men.
All the dots are connected in the OP so I will not readdress them here.
It seems to me you are relying on the 2 uses of the greek word oikeeteerion must mean the same thing, when we see other words used that do not have the same meaning in all of the uses ->G32 for examplegoing by your logic John the baptist must be an angel and not a man
How many other angels do you know whose parents were named?Quote (Gene @ July 24 2009,03:49) Paladin…..brother please don't get offended at my posts, I do agree with much of what you post, specially regarding Trinity and Preexistences. Just some things i have a different view point on. Please don't get discouraged by me brother. peace and love to you and yours……………………….gene
Discouraged?NO ONE has done more than you to ENCOURAGE me, my friend. I just reaponded to your post on intellect. We differ.
That's all there is to that post.
And I very much appreciate everything you have to say, whether we agree or disagree, it gives me reason to pause for reflection.
As well, I also have to appreciate thinker and WJ and Jodi when they disagree, for it makes me take care how I express myself, as is evidenced by those posts when I lose it.
I really do appreciate the input form ALL the sources. I just wish the Holy Spirit hadn't used me to dump the last load of clay.
This topic steered from what I originally wanted, so I'd like to bring it back.
Both the Old Testament and the New Testament show us that the word soul represents a person's LIFE, and is indeed said to be something that is destroyed and dies.
There exists NO scripture that says when a person dies some part of them is immortal and separates from their body and goes to receive a reward or a punishment.
Such a belief comes from Greek philosophers outside the bible such as Plato,
http://www.molloy.edu/sophia/plato/phaedo_txt_main.htm
http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/ancient-soul/#3
The Early Church Fathers were Greek PAGAN converts. Christians who teach the immortality of the soul are following in the traditions of men, those early church converts who interpreted the bible not from the foundation of biblical Hebrew thought and understanding but from their previously held PAGAN ideas.
Hi Jodi,
Indeed the soul can be destroyed.
Mt 10.28 tells us so.The fire prepared for the devil and his angels awaits those who refuse the teachings of God and are found outside the mercy of God.[mt25]
Jodi……….I do agree with that, the whole concept of when a person dies and his (OWN) Spirit remains and so he therefore still exists is false. “when a man dies His (Thoughts) Parish”, he no longer exists. Why because when the thoughts are gone away from a body, that being, no longer exists. Therefore “fear not him who can destory the body and after that can do nothing else, but fear Him who can destory (BOTH) body and SOUL, in Hell “,or grave same thing. A human being or SOUL , only consists of a BODY coupled with Spirit (intellect) when the body dies the spirit or intellect is released and goes back to him who gave it and the man no longer exists, he is in a perished state, and will remain that way unless He receives another body of some kind. God must give a man another body or he will never more exist and will not until he is given another body and spirit (intellect) added to it. Remember when Jesus told his disciples the every Hair on their Heads were numbered, that is because our uniqueness in in our genetic code. And must be preserved in order for us to be reassembled in a body that is uniquely us. Spirit is Intellect and is useless without a body to animate. The only one that exists in a Pure Spirit State is GOD . There are levels of SPIRIT (HOLY) BEING THE HIGHEST all else are lesser intellects. IF this (MIND) be in you it will (also) bring to life you mortal bodies. Why because without a body you as an individual will never continue to exist. ONLY GOD can exist without a BODY, no one else can. We wait to be cloth with that new body that comes from heaven like the body Jesus now has. IMO
peace and love to you and yours……………………………gene
Once again I'd like to discuss the word soul, and the Hebrew word nephesh.
=====================================
Strong's Number: 05315 Browse LexiconOriginal WordWord Origin
Xpnfrom (05314)Transliterated WordTDNT Entry
NepheshTWOT – 1395a
Phonetic SpellingParts of Speech
neh'-fesh
Noun FeminineDefinition
1.soul, self, life, creature, person, appetite, mind, living being, desire, emotion, passion
a.that which breathes, the breathing substance or being, soul, the inner being of man
b.living being
c.living being (with life in the blood)
d.the man himself, self, person or individual
e.seat of the appetites
f.seat of emotions and passions
g.activity of mind
1.dubious
h.activity of the will
1.dubious
i.activity of the character
1.dubiousKing James Word Usage – Total: 753
soul 475, life 117, person 29, mind 15, heart 15, creature 9, body 8, himself 8, yourselves 6, dead 5, will 4, desire 4, man 3, themselves 3, any 3, appetite 2, miscellaneous 47
==============================================The bible shows that man as well as animals are living beings. Man and animals are referred to as being souls, not having souls but being souls. Souls are specifically said to die, thus meaning men and animals lives cease to exist. This is WHY we have hope in the resurrection. This is why the bible tells us specifically that NO ONE has ascended into heaven, that David, Abraham, Noah, Enoch and others have yet to receive the promise.
YHWH gives LIFE (nephesh), translated sometimes as soul, to many different types of bodies, on earth we see many examples of this in the animal kingdom. What separates MAN from the rest of the animal kingdom is his brain and the complexities and intelligence therein. Man’s brain holds within it individual character/personality. An individual’s character is constantly changing and it is built upon inherited genes, input to the memory through experiences and knowledge, and as well the body’s internal fluctuating hormones which play a role in an individual’s behavior and thus his character. Our brain is HOW we KNOW YHWH, it is the system of which YHWH created in us that gives us the capability of learning about Him. Our brain is the CENTER of where our Love for YHWH is established and our Trust for YHWH is established and where our Desire for Him to teach and lead us in all things comes.
Those who believe that there exists a part of man that is immortal are IMO reflecting ignorant superstitious beliefs, of which have been passed down from ancient pagan religions. Recently YHWH has revealed unto man New Discoveries about the brain. FACTS about YHWH’s creation that He has revealed to us, I would think should supersede when interpreting the bible, over traditional beliefs that are based on Myths.
When we die and are put into sheol /grave (translated as hell), LIFE has been taken from the body, and thus are character or spirit which exists in our brain ceases to exist as well. The body decomposes and returns to the earth becoming dust, however our spirit returns to YHWH. When YHWH wants to recreate us He will need our spirit to do so. DNA is the mark of an individual, it exists in the form of a very microscopic code!! This individual code should be viewed like a recipe. The code needs elements from the periodic table organized precisely according to the code to reproduce an individual. When the system is formed according to the code and it has the breath of YHWH in it, it is a living person again, or soul! I find it truly amazing that the building blocks for everything on earth come from 130 or so elements, YHWH made everything on earth through organizing elements and creating different systems from them. There is SOO much that a person can learn about YHWH and His intelligence by learning about His Creation and HOW it works!
When a person dies it can be said that their life/soul, still lives on in us, this is because even though they are dead the life that they lived is still remembered in us and it can still influence and impact our lives. When a person dies, we carry their spirit, or personality with us, remembering who they were.
Ec 9:5 For the living know that they will die; But the dead know nothing, And they have no more reward, For the memory of them is forgotten.
There is NO conscious punishment for someone who has died. Death creates heartache for the living. Death brings forth many valuable lessons to the LIVING, the dead know nothing so it does not serve them.
What does the bible tell us from the beginning?
Genesis 3:19 In the sweat of your face you shall eat bread Till you return to the ground, For out of it you were taken; For dust you are, And to dust you shall return.”
Everything that we are exists within the elements of creation, when our bodies contained with our spirit or character dies, it decomposes back into the earth. Dust we are, dust we return. So unfortunate that people cannot believe this simple fact they have to ADD the traditions of men, which were developed from pure myths. Man’s spirit IS in FACT MATERIAL, it lives within a functioning brain, within a living body
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By Luc Brisson, an author who has done extensive research on Plato,In Platonic ethics, the idea of retribution (that is, of reward or
punishment) affecting the human soul plays a considerable role. Living beings –that is, beings endowed with a soul and a body– are situated within a hierarchy, at the summit of which are gods and demons, and at the bottom of which are animals. Gods and demons, whose bodies are indestructible, always remain at the same level. The human soul, by contrast, whose body is destructible, can migrate from one body to another, be they the bodies of other human beings, or even of animals. The human soul can therefore, if it is punished, descend the scale of living
beings by incarnating itself in animals that are more and more vile, or, if it is rewarded, it can rise back up to assimilate itself to god, which is the aim of Platonic ethics ; this rising is equivalent to a reward, and the descent to a punishment. Myth alone succeeds in describing the destiny of the human soul after its separation from a body of a specific type, and therefore its reward or its punishment, which consists in progressing
towards god, or else in sinking into the animal world, becoming a lion, a dog, a serpent, or even an oyster. This explains the numerous eschatological myths we find at the end of important Platonic dialogues :
Gorgias, Phaedo, Republic, Timaeus, etc.===================================================
From Stanford Encyclopedia on Philosophy,
Ancient philosophy did not, of course, end with classical Stoicism, or indeed with the Hellenistic period, and neither did ancient theorizing about the soul. The revival of interest in the works of both Plato and Aristotle beginning in the second half of the second century B.C. prominently included renewed interest in Platonic and Aristotelian conceptions of the soul, sparking novel theoretical developments, such as, for instance, Plotinus' argument (directed in particular against the Stoics) that the soul could not be spatially extended, since no spatially extended item could account for the unity of the subject of sense-perception (see Emilsson 1991). Christian writers such as Clement of Alexandria and Gregory of Nyssa were heavily indebted to philosophical theories of soul, especially Platonic ones, but also introduced new concerns and interests of their own. Nevertheless, these and other post-classical developments in every case need to be interpreted within the framework and context furnished by the classical theories that we hav
e been considering in some detail.======================================================================
The belief that there exists within man an immortal part of him that upon death receives a reward or punishment is pure PAGAN Myth. We can easily trace how it came to become false Christian doctrine.Genesis 6:5 Then the Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. 6 And the Lord was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart. 7 So the Lord said, “I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth, both man and beast, creeping thing and birds of the air, for I am sorry that I have made them.”
Wicked acts by man produced from his own mind made God sorry that He had made man and it moved Him to want to destroy MAN, not man’s body but MAN himself, ALL of him! God did not say that He wanted to punish man by killing his body and then send his mind to a place of punishment, He said clearly that He wanted to DESTROY MAN!
Early church writers, who established the mainstream Christian doctrine we know of today, DEFINED the Greek word soul according to the current popular myths created previously by philosophers such as Plato. They paid NO attention to the Hebrew word nephesh and how it was defined by YHWH in the Old Testament.
Nephesh translated as soul in the bible,
Pr 19:16 He who keeps the commandment keeps his soul, But he who is careless of his ways will die.
Eze 18:4 “Behold, all souls are Mine; The soul of the father As well as the soul of the son is Mine; The soul who sins shall die
Eze 18:20 The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not bear the guilt of the father, nor the father bear the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.
Eze 33:9 Nevertheless if you warn the wicked to turn from his way, and he does not turn from his way, he shall die in his iniquity; but you have delivered your soul.
Ps 30:3 O Lord, You brought my soul up from the grave; You have kept me alive, that I should not go down to the pit.
Ps 49:15 But God will redeem my soul from the power of the grave, For He shall receive me. Selah
Ps 86:13 For great is Your mercy toward me, And You have delivered my soul from the depths of Sheol.
Ps 33:19 To deliver their soul from death, And to keep them alive in famine.
Ps 56:13 For You have delivered my soul from death. Have You not kept my feet from falling, That I may walk before God In the light of the living?
Ps 78:50 He made a path for His anger; He did not spare their soul from death, But gave their life over to the plague,
Ps 116:8 For You have delivered my soul from death, My eyes from tears, And my feet from falling.
Isa 53:12 Therefore I will divide Him a portion with the great, And He shall divide the spoil with the strong, Because He poured out His soul unto death, And He was numbered with the transgressors, And He bore the sin of many, And made intercession for the transgressors.
The soul is clearly part of death, it represents a person’s life, therefore that is why it says that it dies, it goes to the grave. A person’s LIFE is held within their BODY, if the body perishes then so does that person’s life or soul. Same with the animals, and all is vanity if man thinks otherwise, as the life of an animal stops existing when the body dies, so it is with man!
Hi Jodi,
Man is a soul but while he lives here he is a composite being of body, soul and spirit.
When the spirit leaves and the body rots man still is.
The soul can be divided from the spirit[Heb4]The death of the soul, the second death, in the lake of fire after the judgement is the death to one to be avoided at all cost.
Nick………..Please show where the soul can be divided from the BODY, You are misrepresented scripture. Jodi has presented it right.Our souls can be destroyed in the grave. By simple being let there. Without a resurrection we can no longer exist. IMO
peace and love………………………gene
Quote (Jodi Lee @ July 16 2009,02:49) Here are two scriptures of which tell me ALL of man is mortal. Eccl 9:5 -the dead know nothing.
Eccl 9:10 – whatever your hands finds to do, do it with your might; for there is no work or device or knowledge or wisdom in the grave where you are going.
The mind and body of man BOTH dies, why wouldn't it since the mind is part of the brain.
Please share your view and give scriptures.
Death is the separation of the soul from the body.Scripture? Off the top of my head (Jas. 2:26)
Quote (CatholicApologist @ Sep. 02 2009,07:01) Quote (Jodi Lee @ July 16 2009,02:49) Here are two scriptures of which tell me ALL of man is mortal. Eccl 9:5 -the dead know nothing.
Eccl 9:10 – whatever your hands finds to do, do it with your might; for there is no work or device or knowledge or wisdom in the grave where you are going.
The mind and body of man BOTH dies, why wouldn't it since the mind is part of the brain.
Please share your view and give scriptures.
Death is the separation of the soul from the body.Scripture? Off the top of my head (Jas. 2:26)
I was speaking of the first death.The second death is Gehenna.
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