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Here you go Mike, a place to have a one on one discussion of The Yahweh Unity Doctrine. All other members are not to post here so as to be able to more easily follow the discussion.
Thanks for respecting that. LU
I am RELUCTANTLY here because Kathi is apparently afraid to defend her “Yahweh Unity” doctrine against 3 people at once… the very doctrine she’s been honing and professing all across Heaven Net to dozens of members for a decade now. 🤔
I guess I’ll have to expose it by myself. No problem.
Kathi, your doctrine calls for you to pick and choose which member of the Yahweh Unity is speaking or acting each and every time the Bible says Yahweh or God said or did something.
What if I join your belief system/religion? Would I then have equal say in the question of which Yahweh was speaking or acting in any given scripture?
Mike,
you said: Kathi is apparently afraid to defend her “Yahweh Unity” doctrine against 3 people at once… the very doctrine she’s been honing and professing all across Heaven Net to dozens of members for a decade now. 🤔
You are saying two opposing things with that statement. Either I am afraid of defending my beliefs or I have been defending my beliefs for a decade now.
You have started right off speaking out of both sides of your mouth. You know I am not afraid of defending the Yahweh Unity since I have been doing so for over a decade.
Mike,
You said:
Kathi, your doctrine calls for you to pick and choose which member of the Yahweh Unity is speaking or acting each and every time the Bible says Yahweh or God said or did something.
What if I join your belief system/religion? Would I then have equal say in the question of which Yahweh was speaking or acting in any given scripture?
The whole Bible calls for the reader to follow along and seek to understand who is speaking and to whom. Nothing new when it comes to the words of the YHVH Unity.
We have to use discernment within the context in every passage as we seek to be led to understanding by the Holy Spirit.
Mike: Kathi is apparently afraid to defend her “Yahweh Unity” doctrine against 3 people at once… the very doctrine she’s been honing and professing all across Heaven Net to dozens of members for a decade now.
LU: You are saying two opposing things with that statement. Either I am afraid of defending my beliefs or I have been defending my beliefs for a decade now.
You have started right off speaking out of both sides of your mouth.
There is a huge difference between inventing/honing/professing a doctrine and defending it. Just up and claiming things out of thin air is not a defense of your doctrine. You have not been backed into a corner and forced to use SCRIPTURES to actually defend those claims you grab out of thin air before. You will be now. And afterwards, I’ll expect an apology for the bolded statements above.
LU: The whole Bible calls for the reader to follow along and seek to understand who is speaking and to whom. Nothing new when it comes to the words of the YHVH Unity.
Give an example that doesn’t involve the “Yahweh Unity”.
Also, answer the question I actually asked you about whether or not I’d have equal say.
Of course you can have your say this is a two person discussion, you are free to have your opinions.
An example that doesn’t involve the Yahweh Unity” where the reader has to discern who the speaker is;
The book of Acts
The book of Hebrews
LU: An example that doesn’t involve the Yahweh Unity” where the reader has to discern who the speaker is;
The book of Acts
The book of Hebrews
No, no, no… I’m asking for a specific VERSE where we don’t know who’s speaking, and to whom they are speaking. I’m actually expecting a bunch of them, since you claim that “the whole Bible” is filled with cases where we have to discern who is speaking, and to whom that person is speaking – as if it is as common and normal as picking and choosing which of the Yahwehs were speaking or acting in every single verse that has Yahweh or God speaking or acting.
Show me how common and normal it is. The scriptures should be littered with them, right?
LU: Of course you can have your say this is a two person discussion, you are free to have your opinions.
So then there is no actual scriptural determinator to say which one of us is right? You could say it was Yahweh the Father speaking in Gen 1:26, and I could say it was the “Yahweh the Son” – and either one of us could be right? And it doesn’t really matter?
And so on and so forth for EVERY scripture that has God/Yahweh speaking? Hmm…
Mike: Genesis 1:26… Then God said, “Let US make man in OUR image…
Who is the “US” and the “OUR” in the above verse?
LU: Gen 1:26
Then the Father (the God no one has seen of John 1:18) said to the Son (the only begotten God of John 1:18), “Let Us make man in Our image (the only begotten God who is the image of the God no one has seen, Col 1:15), according to Our likeness…
Mike: How do you know? Why couldn’t it have been the Son saying, “Let us make man in our image”?
And which one of them was the “HE” who made man? (Please include how you know.)
LU: I believe that the Father gives the vision and the Son does what He has seen in the vision. The Son formed man. All things are made by the only begotten God, apart from the only begotten God, nothing has been made that has been made. John 1:3, even the heavens and the earth.
Deuteronomy 32:6… Is this the way you repay Yahweh, you foolish and unwise people? Is he not your Father, your Creator, who made you and formed you?
How do you explain the fact that Moses said that Yahweh is a he, is the Father alone, and is the one who created mankind?
Of course you can leave it as your opinion or you can defend your opinion with scripture. If you have an opinion on something and I show you that your opinion can’t possibly be right by showing you scripture that debunks your opinion, then you learn from that and hopefully adjust your thinking accordingly and visa versa. In other words, if I have an opinion that you can’t clearly debunk from scripture, then my opinion is possible. If I have an opinion and you clearly debunk from scripture, then I would be wise to adjust my opinion and visa versa.
Who is the speaker and to whom is he/she speaking to and defend your answer scripturally:
1On many past occasions and in many different ways, God spoke to our fathers through the prophets. 2But in these last days He has spoken to us by His Son,a whom He appointed heir of all things, and through whom He made the universe.
Mike: How do you explain the fact that Moses said that Yahweh is a he, is the Father alone, and is the one who created mankind?
Deuteronomy 32:6… Is this the way you repay Yahweh (the God of gods and the Lord of lords), you foolish and unwise people? Is he (the God of gods and the Lord of lords) not your Father, your Creator, who made you and formed you?
The Hebrew for YHVH is a masculine singular word, thus the ‘He.’ It is consistent to speak of a unity of more than one with a specific gender and in the singular form. For example, look at Deut. 32:6 and look at the Hebrew for the “people” and “you” and “your” which are all written in the masculine singular. So you tell me, how do you know if the writer is speaking to one person or more than one person as the “you” and “your” in that verse?
LU: Who is the speaker and to whom is he/she speaking to and defend your answer scripturally:
1On many past occasions and in many different ways, God spoke to our fathers through the prophets. 2But in these last days He has spoken to us by His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, and through whom He made the universe.
Kathi, you know full well that this is not in the spirit of what I’m asking. You are being disingenuous. I’m looking for verse in which we have to pick and choose who we believe the speaker of the quoted words is.
The spirit of my question is thus:
1. You imply that it’s completely normal and very common to read a verse in the Bible and have to pick and choose of your own desire who is doing the speaking.
2. I am asking for single verses that contain quotes of spoken words, but we aren’t told who the party being quoted is.
3. I have asked you to exclude any instances where God/Yahweh are speaking – since one can’t rightly use the very thing they are trying to prove as proof of that thing.
4. I’m not asking for instances where we don’t know the author of an entire body of work, like say, Psalm 132. I’m asking for instances where a party is quoted and we have to pick and choose who did the speaking, such as the beginning of Psalm 132…
O Yahweh, remember on behalf of David all the hardships he endured, how he swore an oath to Yahweh, and vowed to the Mighty One of Jacob, “I will not enter my house or get into my bed, I will not give sleep to my eyes or slumber to my eyelids, until I find a place for Yahweh, a dwelling for the Mighty One of Jacob.”
This is what I’m asking for. We don’t know who wrote the psalm itself, but we know that the quoted words were said by David.
5. I’m not asking for instances where we might not know the INDIVIDUAL NAMES of the people being quoted, such as, “the nations ask, ‘Where is your God?'” or, “the men conspiring to kill me say, ‘We will ambush him'”, etc. In those cases, although we don’t know the names of the particular nations or the particular men, we don’t have to pick and choose for ourselves which of two completely different persons or parties were doing the speaking.
Do you have any of those to offer? Or is it only each and every time that God/Yahweh is quoted?
The point I’m making is that your idea that we all have to pick and choose “which Yahweh” is talking or doing something is NOT a normal, common “discernment” that we have to make all throughout the Bible when various words and actions are attributed to people in scripture.
I want you to acknowledge that this is NOT a normal practice throughout scripture, and that your idea of having to do it for God/Yahweh each time is the only time it needs to be done in the Bible – and only by people who believe your doctrine.
If it makes it easier for you to acknowledge what you already know to be the case, I can limit my request to any NAMED person who is QUOTED in scripture. I think you’d be able to easily acknowledge that God/Yahweh would be the only one in the Bible – and only in your doctrine.
Mike,
you said:
Kathi, you know full well that this is not in the spirit of what I’m asking. You are being disingenuous.
You wrote that as a fact, do you mean to write that as an opinion? If as a fact, prove it to be a fact, otherwise re-write it as an opinion, like this for example:
You seem to not understand what I am asking or do you understand and are possibly being disingenuous by acting like you don’t?
See, that is stated like an opinion which is different than how you wrote it. You wrote it as if it was a fact. It feels to me like judging a person as guilty before the trial.
Mike,
You said:
1. You imply that it’s completely normal and very common to read a verse in the Bible and have to pick and choose of your own desire who is doing the speaking.
This is what I said:
LU: The whole Bible calls for the reader to follow along and seek to understand who is speaking and to whom. Nothing new when it comes to the words of the YHVH Unity.
It is not ‘desire’ that chooses who is speaking, Mike. It is context. When context doesn’t make it clear then we need the Holy Spirit to enlighten our minds.
Now, that said, are you wanting me to show you places where the context doesn’t make it clear who is the speaker saying what is quoted?
LU: Deuteronomy 32:6… Is this the way you repay Yahweh (the God of gods and the Lord of lords), you foolish and unwise people? Is he (the God of gods and the Lord of lords) not your Father, your Creator, who made you and formed you?
Are you making the claim that “Yahweh the Son” is also our heavenly Father – or a part of our heavenly Father?
LU: The Hebrew for YHVH is a masculine singular word, thus the ‘He.’ It is consistent to speak of a unity of more than one with a specific gender and in the singular form. For example, look at Deut. 32:6 and look at the Hebrew for the “people” and “you” and “your” which are all written in the masculine singular.
I see. So when we read about the Holy Spirit in the OT, we can imagine that it is a “Unity of Females” because “ruach” is grammatically feminine? Or if we read about a house in Spanish, we can invent a doctrine that all houses are “Unities of Females” because “casa” is grammatically feminine in that language?
Tell you what… find me a group of people in the OT who are identified with the singular masculine “he” so we can have a fair comparison.
LU: So you tell me, how do you know if the writer is speaking to one person or more than one person as the “you” and “your” in that verse?
Well, verse 5 tells us that Moses is identifying a group of people with the words of verse 6. There’s also this…
Deuteronomy 31:30… Then Moses recited aloud to the whole assembly of Israel the words of this song from beginning to end:
Deut 32:6 is part of the song Moses recited to “the whole assembly of Israel”, so it doesn’t take much discernment to understand the words “you” and “your” as referring to the same group (or at least the majority of them who had been a pain in Moses’ and God’s butt ever since they left Egypt).
I await your singular masculine Hebrew “he” that refers to a unity of more than one person.
LU: You wrote that as a fact, do you mean to write that as an opinion? If as a fact, prove it to be a fact, otherwise re-write it as an opinion…
Funny you should say that, since I truly and honestly had “IMO” after the statement at first – but then removed it because there is no doubt in my mind that you knew exactly what I was asking for, and that not knowing who wrote an entire book or psalm in the Bible was not it.
The spirit of your claim was that when God/Yahweh is quoted in scripture, we have to pick and choose which one of the “Yahweh Unity” is doing the speaking each time… and that such a practice is common and normal all throughout scripture.
The spirit of my request was that you show another example of THE SAME THING, ie: another named party who is quoted in scripture, but we have to pick and choose who said the words.
And if you are really going to insist that equating the unknown status of a writer of scripture is the same as not knowing who is being directly quoted in scripture, then… IMO… you are doubling down on your disingenuity.
LU: …are you wanting me to show you places where the context doesn’t make it clear who is the speaker saying what is quoted?
Not sure I understand the wording there. I’m asking for other times in the Bible where a NAMED person or party is directly quoted as saying something, and we have to pick and choose between two or more choices which person or party said the quoted words.
Or other times in the Bible where an action was attributed to a NAMED person or party, and we had to pick and choose between two or more persons or parties who completed that action.
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