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Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 11 2010,11:06) Quote (Tim Kraft @ Dec. 10 2010,21:26) Mike: So Paul was actually saying lies, deceptions, error, and untruth(devils) are the major beliefs on earth right now mostly because of man made religion.
Hi Tim,Well, there's nothing I can really say to you then. You don't believe in the scriptures as a whole and as the inspired word of God. I do.
So debating you would be like debating an atheist IMO. And I enjoy discussing and debating scripture. I have no time for those who don't accept ALL scripture as being inspired of God. I don't mean that in a bad way towards you either. I also don't make time to debate with our resident atheist Stu, although I do like him.
I read you're beliefs, and I couldn't help but wonder what made Jesus different from us then. If we are all “God/Men”, and that's what Jesus was on the earth, what made him more special than anyone else?
mike
Mike: I resonate to your kindness. Please don't let go of me yet. I hope in the bottom of my heart that it is just that I am unable to put on paper what I truly beleve to be truth.God as my witness, I never started reading the Bible and thought that I was anything but a sinner, worm and a dog as my Nazarene upbringing had taught that we were.
I am not in any way atheist. All written scripture is not inspired by God unless every man on earth or at least every man quoted in the Bible is speaking from Gods inspiration.
There is truth and untruth written by men in the Bible.
The quotes by the pharisees and saducees were in error. Do you feel that both error and truth are represented in the Bible composite? Then is the error represented from inspriation of God? I don't see that “scripture” as meaning everything written in the Bible. Does that make me atheist?After many years away from church influence I began to see a broader view of what Jesus did for us and to us. He didn't come to show us a new religion. The salvation he brought to mankind was being saved from sin/error of thought!
Man had lost contact from God by sin/BELIEVING he was separated from God. God didn't move, if God is everywhere then he can't move. He's already there. This error of belief of being separate from God or lost was mans mistaken thinking.God never left man, man believed evil, felt fear and disconnected from God in his mind.
Mankind had no guide to follow, to learn the truth. Religion was born by man trying to understand God and what he wanted mankind to do or be! Generations went by with man creating more and more sin/error thinking of how to serve God.
There was one faith line, not a blood line, FAITH that started with Abraham and connected him with God. That faith line can be followed through the old testament and those were the chosen ones or at least the connected ones to God.
God was in Adam and therby his seed. So the God/Man Adam was procreated by Adam seed of God/man, placed in a woman. The union of a man and woman procreates a Man/God or human with the seed or life force of God within. The seed of God was carried through the flood by Noah, a righteous faith man.
God once again took of his seed directly and delivered it to Mary via the angel who spoke and Mary received the seed of God. This son of God had a clear mind free of the fifty generations or so of mankind covering up his powerful mind with lies and deceptions as to who he really was.(these are your devils if you choose). Man created, untruth of thousands of rules unto God.
Jesus did not have the veils and coverings in his mind of darkness and lies. He was pure mind of Christ. His teaching to us is that we are all just like him but we must purify our thinking. Find our mind of Christ. We must wash away wrong thinking. Sin is wrong thinking. We must cast out darkness with the truth. He is the firstborn word/seed of God with pure mind telling us that if we can believe, there is nothing we can't do.
So we argue and banter back and forth, old or new, sin or no sin, heaven or man created hell. That comparison is because if we clean our minds with the words of Jesus and uncover the Christ mind that we all have it will be so much better than now that we will see we have been living in hell.
So much more, to little room. I hope you read and others. Its gospel news believe it or not. God Bless, TK
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 11 2010,11:33) Quote (Tim Kraft @ Dec. 10 2010,20:47) Pierre: If your God of the old testament prefered one over another or had chosen people, and you choose to accept that as your truth of God that is your choice. The God of the new testament as revealed by Jesus is love. The most high God of Jesus is no respector of persons. All are equal.
Hi Tim,This is the God of the NT speaking here:
Rev 21 NIV
6 He said to me: “It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. To the thirsty I will give water without cost from the spring of the water of life. 7 Those who are victorious will inherit all this, and I will be their God and they will be my children. 8 But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.”Doesn't sound like “all are equal” to me.
mike
Mike: Gods chosen are faith believers. They that believe what Jesus taught. Jesus cleansed us, ordainded us, forgave us, saved us from sin, and took away our sin!Do you believe this? If you believe this then you are purified in mind and the mind of Christ that is within you can do all things. Limitless heaven on earth.
If one doesn't believe Jesus did all those works for us and gave them to us then he is in darkness as an unbeliever, unclean from rejecting cleanliness.
If you don't beleive your perfection in Christ and you do believe you are murderers, idolaters and all devils/liars then you will partake of your own judgment against youself.
Equality is for believers! TK
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 11 2010,11:36) Besides Tim. It was your beloved Jesus who said, “Not one letter or least pen stroke of the Law and the Prophets will disappear”. He also said he came not to abolish the Law, but to fulfill it. And he taught by quoting the OT too many times to count. Jesus believed in the “God of the OT”. Why don't you? Jesus said, “Why do you call me Lord, and not do what I say?”
mike
Mike: You didn't finish the scripture, ….not one jot or title will be removed from the law…until all be fulfilled..!Jesus said it is finished, the work God sent him to do is finished. Jesus fulfilled the law. If not do you offer sacrifices?
Do you honor the sabbath. Do you fail on any part of the law?If you do you have removed at least a jot or title!
Jesus did not come to “abolish”/stay in or lodge in the law…!
Abolish is the same greek word used later when the disciples went into town to find “lodging” or a place to stay.He didn't follow the law himself. He broke sabbath, he set a woman free that was to be stoned by law, he didnt follow ritual washings, he ate and drank with sinner, he didn't pay temple tax, he healed on the sabbath. JESUS DID NOT FOLLOW THE LAW. He quoted the law to those who were under the law. TK
Ed: I am not confused with YHVH! I pay no attention to YHVH! I follow Jesus and what he says. The God Jesus refers to is “theos” which means supreme divinity. YHVH was, Theos is! Jesus' God is “Theos” and so is mine!! TK
Quote (Tim Kraft @ Dec. 12 2010,04:43) Ed: I am not confused with YHVH! I pay no attention to YHVH! I follow Jesus and what he says. The God Jesus refers to is “theos” which means supreme divinity. YHVH was, Theos is! Jesus' God is “Theos” and so is mine!! TK
TKwell said
Pierre
Quote (Tim Kraft @ Dec. 11 2010,21:43) Ed: I pay no attention to YHVH!
TK
Hi Tim,That is why you are so confused; because you disregard GOD!
Witnessing to the world in behalf of YHVH! (Psalm 45:17)
יהוה האלהים (JEHOVAH GOD) YÄ-hä-vā hä ĔL-ō-Hêêm!
Ed J (Joshua 22:34 / Isaiah 49:16 / Isaiah 60:14)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org (Ecl.9:12-16)Quote (terraricca @ Dec. 11 2010,21:53) Quote (Tim Kraft @ Dec. 12 2010,04:43) Ed: I am not confused with YHVH! I pay no attention to YHVH! I follow Jesus and what he says. The God Jesus refers to is “theos” which means supreme divinity. YHVH was, Theos is! Jesus' God is “Theos” and so is mine!! TK
TKwell said
Pierre
Hi Pierre,Do you disregard GOD as well?
eD j (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgEd: YHVH is your choice to call God. There is no name for God. God is absolute. Absolute has no opposite! God is all and in all. God is source of life. I could go on and on but if Jesus calls God, “Supreme Divinity” thats good enough for me.
How is it that you would say we disregard God? I don't understand? TK
Hi All,
I was wondering the same thing that Ed asked you Pierre. Pierre and Tim, did you know the earliest fragments of the LXX – the LXX that Jesus read from in the synagogue in Luke 4:17-21 – contain the Hebrew letters YHVH where it was in the Hebrew text?
God's personal name is written in Hebrew letters in the midst of the Greek text. So when Jesus said things like “I have made your name known”, he was most likely talking about his God's name, YHVH.
“Theos” is a title meaning “mighty one”, just like “god” is. “Theos” is NOT the NAME of God…………but a title given Him.
It sounds like Tim thinks Jesus' God is someone other than YHVH, “yet for us there is but ONE God, the Father”.
The Father that Jesus prayed to and served is YHVH.
mike
Quote (Tim Kraft @ Dec. 12 2010,00:26) Ed: There is no name for God.
TK
Hi Tim,Psalm 45:17 I(Ed J) will make thy name (YHVH) to be remembered in
all generations: therefore shall the people praise thee for ever and ever.
John 17:6: I(Jesus) have manifested thy name (YHVH) unto the men which
thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me;
and they have kept thy word. Isn't it time you (Tim Kraft) turn to the living GOD?Witnessing to a worldwide audience in behalf of YHVH!
יהוה האלהים (JEHOVAH GOD) YÄ-hä-vā hä ĔL-ō-Hêêm!
Ed J (Isaiah 49:16 / Isaiah 60:14 / Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org (Ecl.9:12-16)Quote (Tim Kraft @ Dec. 11 2010,21:04) God was in Adam and therby his seed. So the God/Man Adam was procreated by Adam seed of God/man, placed in a woman. The union of a man and woman procreates a Man/God or human with the seed or life force of God within. The seed of God was carried through the flood by Noah, a righteous faith man.
Hi Tim,I don't agree with your beliefs. God CREATED Adam from the dust of the earth. God put HIS SPIRIT in Adam as his life force. But there is a big difference between God allowing us to live by the spirit He gives us and us being “God/Men”.
Rats also live by that same life force Tim. Are these rodents also “God/Rats”?
The same goes with anything that lives and breathes Tim. Are cockroaches also “God/Bugs”?
I think you put us on a way closer level to God than we are.
mike
Quote (Tim Kraft @ Dec. 11 2010,21:20) If you don't beleive your perfection in Christ and you do believe you are murderers, idolaters and all devils/liars then you will partake of your own judgment against youself.
Hi Tim,I believe that God sacrificed His Son as atonement for our sins. Our sins have been paid for by the blood of Jesus Christ – but that doesn't mean we aren't sinners. It just means that God has found a way acceptable to Him to overlook all those sins.
You seem to be saying that if we think we are “perfect”, then we are. I, on the other hand, consider myself a wretched sinner who has no chance for eternal life except the fact that my Lord died to “erase” those sins in his God's eyes. I KNOW I am a sinner, and I ask for mercy, undeserved kindness, and a favorable judgement from the one that God appointed as judge.
peace and love,
mikeQuote (Tim Kraft @ Dec. 11 2010,21:38) Jesus said it is finished, the work God sent him to do is finished.
The work Jesus had to do ON EARTH is finished Tim. There is still much more to be done – as told in Revelation.mike
Quote (Tim Kraft @ Dec. 11 2010,21:04) All written scripture is not inspired by God unless every man on earth or at least every man quoted in the Bible is speaking from Gods inspiration. There is truth and untruth written by men in the Bible.
The quotes by the pharisees and saducees were in error. Do you feel that both error and truth are represented in the Bible composite? Then is the error represented from inspriation of God? I don't see that “scripture” as meaning everything written in the Bible.
Hi Tim,I disagree. The scripture ARE inspired of God. That is different from saying that God inspired the liars and murderers of the Bible to lie and murder. What God inspired was the writers of the Bible to write ABOUT those sinners so we could all learn by example what happens to “good” people and how God deals with “bad” ones.
The Pharisees did not write any of the scriptures Tim. Their errors were recorded by people who were inspired by God.
mike
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 12 2010,00:26) Hi All, I was wondering the same thing that Ed asked you Pierre. Pierre and Tim, did you know the earliest fragments of the LXX – the LXX that Jesus read from in the synagogue in Luke 4:17-21 – contain the Hebrew letters YHVH where it was in the Hebrew text?
God's personal name is written in Hebrew letters in the midst of the Greek text. So when Jesus said things like “I have made your name known”, he was most likely talking about his God's name, YHVH.
“Theos” is a title meaning “mighty one”, just like “god” is. “Theos” is NOT the NAME of God…………but a title given Him.
It sounds like Tim thinks Jesus' God is someone other than YHVH, “yet for us there is but ONE God, the Father”.
The Father that Jesus prayed to and served is YHVH.
mike
Mike:God bless you: Its not so much that I care what the name is. Its knowing what the name contains. IMO no one name, as you put it can describe God. Now with that said, I meant no disrespect to God (as he knows). To the Jews and or the Hebrews YHVH is the name they used. It is true that Jesus used a title for God in the New Testament, to be more inclusive in the scope of authority & magnificence maybe.When Jesus referred to go in my name and do this or that the religious world has taken that to mean litterally, which I guess is Yeshua. IMO he was not saying to use his name as such, he was saying go in the authority and power that I have been given from God and do this or that. Thats why we are ordained to perform the same works of power that Jesus did.
Its not us doing the works, its Gods authority and the power through Jesus, that performs the works through our mouths and hands to whosoever will believe and recieve. Even then IT ONLY WORKS ACCORDING TO THE FAITH OF THE RECIPIENT!! Even Jesus couldn't do many power works in his hometown amongst friends and relatives, they didn't have the faith for the connection. TK
Quote (Ed J @ Dec. 12 2010,00:38) Quote (Tim Kraft @ Dec. 12 2010,00:26) Ed: There is no name for God.
TK
Hi Tim,Psalm 45:17 I(Ed J) will make thy name (YHVH) to be remembered in
all generations: therefore shall the people praise thee for ever and ever.
John 17:6: I(Jesus) have manifested thy name (YHVH) unto the men which
thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me;
and they have kept thy word. Isn't it time you (Tim Kraft) turn to the living GOD?Witnessing to a worldwide audience in behalf of YHVH!
יהוה האלהים (JEHOVAH GOD) YÄ-hä-vā hä ĔL-ō-Hêêm!
Ed J (Isaiah 49:16 / Isaiah 60:14 / Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org (Ecl.9:12-16)
Ed: If you would ever leave you Bible commentaries you might find some truth for yourself.If you would look up the word that was translated as “name” you will find it is representative of “authority”.
Go and do in the authority of Jesus/God/Theos/YHVH et. al.!
TK
Quote (Tim Kraft @ Dec. 12 2010,01:48)
To the Jews and or the Hebrews YHVH is the name they used. It is true that Jesus used a title for God in the New Testament, to be more inclusive in the scope of authority & magnificence maybe.
The Jews used the PERSONAL NAME that God Himself told Moses. YHVH also said, “This is my name FOREVER”. And we don't know that Jesus didn't use God's Divide Name in all of his teachings. Sometime AFTER Jesus was on earth, it was decided by MEN that God's Holy Name should not be spoken, and therefore also not printed. They figured if they printed the name, then the one reading in the synagogue might accidentilly SAY that Name. So the scribes started inserting “God” and “Lord” where ever YHVH used to be in the scriptures.And that's why I was telling you that the actual name YHVH WAS in the earliest fragments of the Septuagint that have been found to date. These fragments date from the time of Jesus. So when Jesus read scripture, that scripture DID have the name YHVH in it. So who's to say that because men LATER replaced YHVH with “God” or “Lord”, that Jesus didn't actually read and say the name YHVH?
Quote (Tim Kraft @ Dec. 12 2010,01:48)
IMO he was not saying to use his name as such, he was saying go in the authority and power that I have been given from God and do this or that. Thats why we are ordained to perform the same works of power that Jesus did.
I agree with the power and authority thing. I also know that someone's “name” could refer to their qualities and not their actual name. But when it says there is only one name under heaven by which we can be saved, it means the personal name of Jesus, God's Christ. So when it says to do good things in the name of God, I also take it to mean we are to make clear that we are doing what we are doing in the name of Jehovah, our only God – and to give Him the praise and glory for any little thing that we do.peace and love,
mikeQuote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 12 2010,02:05) Quote (Tim Kraft @ Dec. 12 2010,01:48)
To the Jews and or the Hebrews YHVH is the name they used. It is true that Jesus used a title for God in the New Testament, to be more inclusive in the scope of authority & magnificence maybe.
The Jews used the PERSONAL NAME that God Himself told Moses. YHVH also said, “This is my name FOREVER”. And we don't know that Jesus didn't use God's Divide Name in all of his teachings. Sometime AFTER Jesus was on earth, it was decided by MEN that God's Holy Name should not be spoken, and therefore also not printed. They figured if they printed the name, then the one reading in the synagogue might accidentilly SAY that Name. So the scribes started inserting “God” and “Lord” where ever YHVH used to be in the scriptures.And that's why I was telling you that the actual name YHVH WAS in the earliest fragments of the Septuagint that have been found to date. These fragments date from the time of Jesus. So when Jesus read scripture, that scripture DID have the name YHVH in it. So who's to say that because men LATER replaced YHVH with “God” or “Lord”, that Jesus didn't actually read and say the name YHVH?
Quote (Tim Kraft @ Dec. 12 2010,01:48)
IMO he was not saying to use his name as such, he was saying go in the authority and power that I have been given from God and do this or that. Thats why we are ordained to perform the same works of power that Jesus did.
I agree with the power and authority thing. I also know that someone's “name” could refer to their qualities and not their actual name. But when it says there is only one name under heaven by which we can be saved, it means the personal name of Jesus, God's Christ. So when it says to do good things in the name of God, I also take it to mean we are to make clear that we are doing what we are doing in the name of Jehovah, our only God – and to give Him the praise and glory for any little thing that we do.peace and love,
mike
Mike: I see your point but Jesus said theos was sufficient to express God or God was enough to express theos so if I use God in my expressions I know he will hear. If we are to learn everything Jesus said and did in the Hebrew language I am in deep —-! God Bless, TKQuote (Tim Kraft @ Dec. 12 2010,02:21) Mike: I see your point but Jesus said theos was sufficient to express God or God was enough to express theos so if I use God in my expressions I know he will hear. If we are to learn everything Jesus said and did in the Hebrew language I am in deep —-! God Bless, TK 
That's funny about the deep doo-doo. But my point is that if the LXX scrolls in the synagogues in Jesus' time DID have the Divine Name of God in them, then we have no way of knowing that Jesus didn't repeatedly say “Jehovah” instead of “Theos” in his teachings.
For example, when Jesus said this………
Matthew 4:4 NIV
Jesus answered, “It is written: ‘Man shall not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God.’ ”………..he was quoting scripture. Just because later translators changed “YHVH” to “God” doesn't mean that Jesus didn't actually say, “every word that comes from the mouth of YHVH”, right?
And that also goes for scriptures like this one:
Matthew 5:8l NIV
Blessed are the pure in heart, for they will see God.Jesus could have said, “for they will see YHVH” for all we know. Take this one Tim:
Matthew 4:10
Jesus said to him, “Away from me, Satan! For it is written: ‘Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only.’ ”Now what was originally WRITTEN was, “Worship YHVH, your God”.
Some MEN had decided at sometime that it wasn't appropriate to speak out loud the Divine Name. But Jesus wasn't “some men” was he? He was the Son of God Himself and was surely allowed to say the name of his God and Father, right? Plus, he was quoting scripture to Satan. Why would Jesus say, “It is written”, and then CHANGE the words that WERE written in his quote?
So what I'm saying is that it is more likely that Jesus said “YHVH”, and then the scribes later changed that to “Lord”.
peace and love,
mikeHey Mike: I hope that whatever language a person learns the Bible in, God accepts that language. Here is something interesting I noticed in Genesis but you will probably have to see this in the KJV. You may have seen this long before but its somewhat new to me. The transltors translated God as “God” on the first page during the first creation or a creation of some sort. Then in Chap. 2 the translation is changed to “Lord God” and another creation. Then over to Chap.4:1 it is the “Lord”. And through much of Genesis they are intermingled as God and Lord God and the Lord your God and just Lord. I didn't know if you had any light on that! The lord your God is used mostly or the lord thy God.
Also, I had heard at one time or another that the name Jehovah was a war-lord title. That there were many Jehovah's Jehovah the provider and Jehovah the protector etc.! I just wondered if you have any light on those thoughts. Thanks, TK
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