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Hi Is 1.18,
You may compare your work in Christ with them but I would not
Surely since Christ we have yet to see God's work so plain as through them?
Matthew 11:19
The Son of man came eating and drinking, and they say, Behold a man gluttonous, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners. But wisdom is justified of her children.Yes but the same source of their logic, the Holy Spirit, also indwells the church. So it's logical to assume that the Spirit would lead us in like manner. In fact I would go so far as to say if logic has no part in a person's theology, or they are adverse to the notion of it, then they might question whether they truely are being led by the Spirit of God…..
Is logic from God or man?
Quote
Is anything not from God?
Deceit, malevolence, injustice….Since logic is “from God” and since Yeshua and Paul frequently used it we should be embracing it not denouncing it.
Hi Is 1.18,
The inspiration of all the words of the apostles,
using logic or other means, does not consecrate
the weak human wisdom of the men of the world.NH,
Can you tell me the difference between the logic Yeshua and Paul used and that which regular believers use. What exactly is it about the logic that Yeshua/Paul used that makes it “divine wisdom”? And conversely, what is it about the logic that regular men use that makes it “weak human wisdom”?I want to know the precise difference, so can you please be specific.
Hi Is 1.18,
Look around.
Nobody can agree about one verse of scripture.
What evidence is there of the work of the Spirit of God inspiring doctrine on earth now?
Where is truth to be found in the denominations that all claim to be his voice?
Philosophy and falsity thrive, new gospels abound.
Fresh water mixed with salty at best.
The Spirit of God unites in truth.
But we see instead opinion, inference and human wisdom.Jesus must be about to return as faith is lacking.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 13 2007,07:34) Hi,
The greeks loved to argue for entertainment.
Hey Nick,There truly are some Greeks on this forum.
Tim
Quote (Is 1:18 @ July 01 2007,21:34) NH,
Can you tell me the difference between the logic Yeshua and Paul used and that which regular believers use. What exactly is it about the logic that Yeshua/Paul used that makes it “divine wisdom”? And conversely, what is it about the logic that regular men use that makes it “weak human wisdom”?I want to know the precise difference, so can you please be specific.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 01 2007,21:48) Hi Is 1.18,
Look around.
Nobody can agree about one verse of scripture.
What evidence is there of the work of the Spirit of God inspiring doctrine on earth now?
Where is truth to be found in the denominations that all claim to be his voice?
Philosophy and falsity thrive, new gospels abound.
Fresh water mixed with salty at best.
The Spirit of God unites in truth.
But we see instead opinion, inference and human wisdom.Jesus must be about to return as faith is lacking.
I am still none the wiser. I don't think you can rightly blame the confusion here on logic, it brings order not disorder. To be honest I can only see contradictions in you view.- Logic is from God and is also from man.
- If Yeshua or Paul applied logic to scripture it's “divine wisdom” but if any other followers of Yeshua do it it's deemed “weak human wisdom”.
- Common sense and logic are mutually exclusive.
Who could make sense of that?!? Yeshua applied logic to scripture. We follow Him.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 01 2007,21:48) Hi Is 1.18,
Look around.
Nobody can agree about one verse of scripture.
What evidence is there of the work of the Spirit of God inspiring doctrine on earth now?
Where is truth to be found in the denominations that all claim to be his voice?
Philosophy and falsity thrive, new gospels abound.
Fresh water mixed with salty at best.
The Spirit of God unites in truth.
But we see instead opinion, inference and human wisdom.Jesus must be about to return as faith is lacking.
Nick,
This is depressing as h**l – but probably pretty close to the truth. Ouch!Quote (Is 1:18 @ July 02 2007,18:49) Quote (Is 1:18 @ July 01 2007,21:34) NH,
Can you tell me the difference between the logic Yeshua and Paul used and that which regular believers use. What exactly is it about the logic that Yeshua/Paul used that makes it “divine wisdom”? And conversely, what is it about the logic that regular men use that makes it “weak human wisdom”?I want to know the precise difference, so can you please be specific.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 01 2007,21:48) Hi Is 1.18,
Look around.
Nobody can agree about one verse of scripture.
What evidence is there of the work of the Spirit of God inspiring doctrine on earth now?
Where is truth to be found in the denominations that all claim to be his voice?
Philosophy and falsity thrive, new gospels abound.
Fresh water mixed with salty at best.
The Spirit of God unites in truth.
But we see instead opinion, inference and human wisdom.Jesus must be about to return as faith is lacking.
I am still none the wiser. I don't think you can rightly blame the confusion here on logic, it brings order not disorder. To be honest I can only see contradictions in you view.- Logic is from God and is also from man.
- If Yeshua or Paul applied logic to scripture it's “divine wisdom” but if any other followers of Yeshua do it it's deemed “weak human wisdom”.
- Common sense and logic are mutually exclusive.
Who could make sense of that?!? Yeshua applied logic to scripture. We follow Him.
Hi Is 1.18,
The word of God is the seed that is sown, not logic.If it is not snatched away by the theological vultures and the soil is good and the rain of the Spirit falls on it often and accepted gladly, that seed grows up to be Christ in us, with the mind of Christ, too uniting the body as one.
Hi,
One of the idolatries that is common is that of democracy. The greek system of representation has become a missionary demand by certain governments worldwide who know how fair it looks externally but also how easily it can be manipulated by those with wealth and influence. It has become a justification for invasion and transgression of sovereignty.
It is part of a general bowing to things greek. Now it is said that truth itself does not exist but science is offered as the only possibility of certainty. Logic and science are upheld as the only judges of fact.We admit that logic is not the basis of our walk.
Understanding and knowledge are not the reason we follow Jesus.
Faith is the basis of our knowledge, faith in God and His servants and their writings.
Experience of the peace and joy that goes beyond our understanding builds faith on faith.
If the greeks here can only step out of the boat according to what can be proved about the possibilities,
Then they cannot follow.Hi,
We should be grateful God has sent us Stu.
He helps us understand what Paul meant in 1Cor 222For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:
23But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;
24But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.
Stu demands that first we satify the need for logic.
Nothing is true to him unless it is logical.
Nothing he cannot see is logical.
We cannot satisfy Stu any more than Paul could have.
What we do in following the way of Jesus Christ is of earthly wisdom.Thanks Stu.
Of course Tow speaks from the Jewish perspective-the OT is the only truth.
He too will only be offended by subjecting the OT to the interpretation via the NT.
He is also offended by the way the chosen people, through unbelief, helped fulfill the plan of God.
The stumbling block remains.We cannot satify Tow.
Thanks anyway.I THINK IT DESERVES REREADING
22For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:
23But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;
24But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 08 2008,05:01) We admit that logic is not the basis of our walk.
Understanding and knowledge are not the reason we follow Jesus.
Faith is the basis of our knowledge, faith in God and His servants and their writings.
And yet God said to Abe, “….come, let us reason together…”. Did God mean for Abe to just rely on faith alone? Or did he require a conversation whereby intellect and reasoning were employed? Where logic needed to play it's part.Logic and understanding are needed to place faith in something or someone, in my opinion. Logically speaking, one cannot begin to fathom the “believing without seeing” bit until they ignore the part of their brain that asks, “Why?”. Along these lines, I believe that Trinitarians must have the strongest faith around because they have truly abandoned the rules of logical thinking all together.
Can one use their logical resources and still have faith? I'm beginning to wonder….
Quote (Not3in1 @ Jan. 09 2008,21:28) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 08 2008,05:01) We admit that logic is not the basis of our walk.
Understanding and knowledge are not the reason we follow Jesus.
Faith is the basis of our knowledge, faith in God and His servants and their writings.
And yet God said to Abe, “….come, let us reason together…”. Did God mean for Abe to just rely on faith alone? Or did he require a conversation whereby intellect and reasoning were employed? Where logic needed to play it's part.Logic and understanding are needed to place faith in something or someone, in my opinion. Logically speaking, one cannot begin to fathom the “believing without seeing” bit until they ignore the part of their brain that asks, “Why?”. Along these lines, I believe that Trinitarians must have the strongest faith around because they have truly abandoned the rules of logical thinking all together.
Hi Sister,The word faith seems to have three major definitions, to believe in something you don't have proof of, to have hope, and to have trust.
Joh 6:44 No one can come to me unless drawn by the Father who sent me; and I will raise that person up on the last day.
God desires our faith, meaning, he wants our trust. God knows that trust is only something that is PROVEN. God calls people to Himself and leads them to believe in Him through His accomplishments made in Jesus. Jesus is the foundation to our trust in God.
John 17:24 Father, I desire that they also whom You gave Me may be with Me where I am, that they may behold My glory which You have given Me; for You loved Me before the foundation of the world. 25 O righteous Father! The world has not known You, but I have known You; and these have known that You sent Me. 26 And I have declared to them Your name, and will declare it, that the love with which You loved Me may be in them, and I in them.”
Ro 12:2 and be not conformed to this age, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, for your proving what is the will of God — the good, and acceptable, and perfect.
1 Thes 5:20 Do not despise the words of prophets, 21 but test everything; hold fast to what is good;
I believe that the more something makes sense the more likely it's true. So therefore as well, those things that don't make a whole lot of sense, one should really question its validity.
Believing in something, having faith in something you do not understand is worthless and I believe is not desired by God.
You asked, “Can one use their logical resources and still have faith? I'm beginning to wonder….”
I think it depends on how you define Faith in this particular question. If you define faith as in TRUST, then WITHOUT using logical resources, faith is impossible.
Blessings of strength and wellness to you Mandy
Jodi
I like that God has proven himself to me and gained my trust. That is a neat bit of insight that I believe is so true.
Thanks for the thoughts on this, Jodi. I appreciate your view and opinons very much.
I better head to bed soon, we have painters coming in the morning bright and early.
Thanks for the blessings! Back at'cha,
Mandyummm. Don't remember saying that.
I could very easily say the exact same thing about you. In fact, I think I have.
Nick, until you know what logic is, I'm not sure you're in a position to even use the word. Over the years, I've attempted to ask you the very simplest of questions that have the simplest of logic attached to them.
You absolutely have refused to answer, because that would be admitting that you understand the principles of thinking and logic, and on occasion, use them.
In fact, I know you use them, and all the time. But you accuse others of using them, when it suits you.
Logic is not the basis of my faith, as you say, any more than it is the basis of your faith. Yet, we both use logic or inference. But the difference is, I don't hide it.
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