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Nick….God could reveal something (NEW) now that is not even in Scripture and you would reject it because it is not written right. Its not what is written it what you understand about what written the counts. IMO
GB,
If you knew the truth about the Spirit you would know the Spirit does not speak of His own initiative but reminds us of the words of Jesus. So those who teach beyond the words of scripture are not of the Lord.Nick….as i said you would reject it even if it did happen, your God is the bible , tell us did Paul only teach the exact words of Jesus or did he Say GOD would Judge the intents of mans Heart according to (HIS) GOSPEL. And nick, whose teaching beyond the words of Jesus, because you don't understand Jesus words , don't accuse other of going beyond them, because you can't understand them.
Nick….God gave us these minds to us and LOGIC is how they work , and tied with Gods Spirit the LOGIC works Just fine. but if you hate it so much you can go and have a lobotomy and you won't have to worry about it any longer. God said come Let's (REASON) together. Logic is the process of reasoning . God could have made mindless people if He wanted to. imo
Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 13 2007,07:34) Hi,
The greeks loved to argue for entertainment.
Acts 17
“18Then certain philosophers of the Epicureans, and of the Stoicks, encountered him. And some said, What will this babbler say? other some, He seemeth to be a setter forth of strange gods: because he preached unto them Jesus, and the resurrection.19And they took him, and brought him unto Areopagus, saying, May we know what this new doctrine, whereof thou speakest, is?
20For thou bringest certain strange things to our ears: we would know therefore what these things mean.
21(For all the Athenians and strangers which were there spent their time in nothing else, but either to tell, or to hear some new thing.) “
The Greeks also sought to see the Master.
Jn 12
“20And there were certain Greeks among them that came up to worship at the feast:21The same came therefore to Philip, which was of Bethsaida of Galilee, and desired him, saying, Sir, we would see Jesus.”
The greek influence entered the kingdom and brought it's own plague. Being based on human wisdom it does it does include essential commonsense but we see it expressed here in a similar way as some of the Jews looked at tradition, as equal to scripture.
The JWs rely heavily on it to try an show Christ is an angel and to deny the existence of the punishment for sin.
Trinitarians use it to bridge their confusion with Christ being called God and so they teach that he must be God Himself lest they are accused of polytheism.
It is useful but not equal to scripture.
true, and no Trinitarians I know of elevate logic to the same level of authority as Scripture…. some might, but then again, so might some antiTrinitarians… as you mention the JWs do…. the Socinians do also….”Socinians held views rooted in skepticism and rationality only and rejected orthodox teachings on the Trinity and on the divinity of Jesus, as summarised in the Racovian Catechism.”Trinitarians I know believe in the Trinity because they believe the bible teaches it, not because of logic, it would be good if you did not make overarching accusations, which lead to straw men, which leads to you looking foolish, and losing credibility.
blessings,
KenQuote (Nick Hassan @ Nov. 26 2008,18:59) Hi E,
Where do the anointed men of God teach in the bible about any trinity?None do.
Nick………i agree with that.peace………..gene
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Nov. 26 2008,18:59) Hi E,
Where do the anointed men of God teach in the bible about any trinity?None do.
grammatically, this is very difficult to understand, and a very poorly contructed question….. are you asking if there are any “anointed men of God” who teach the Trinity? If so, thats easy, I could easily list hundreds pastors and theologians both of today and the past. Of course, the crux of the matter is that what you would consider an “anointed man of God”and what I would consider an “anointed man of God” are 2 very different people. For of course you would say that any one who teaches the trinity is not “anointed” and i would say that anyone who denies the Trinity is not “anointed”.blessings,
kenEP……..no where in scripture does it show a single Person who taught the Trinity, in fact the WORD is not even in Scripture, But the Pagan world was full of the trinitarian teachings. All the way back as far as history goes it shows trinitarian teaching in pagan ideologies any good historian can prove that, the Greeks, Egyptian, Persians, Asians, etc all had there form of trinity worship, man gods were common ideologies and virgin berths were also, Trinity is not new but a very old pagan teaching.
peace……………….gene
Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 17 2007,07:02) Hi E,
Logic seems to suggest that if the trinity is true it is written?
Where?
NH.
Probably the same place as “the one eternal gospel for all”Hi,
Logic is of the so called wisdom of men.
The wisdom of God is of a higher order.Scripture is of the wisdom of God,
Lk11
49Therefore also said the wisdom of God, I will send them prophets and apostles, and some of them they shall slay and persecute:Nick….Logic is given by God for men to reason with, without it they would be totally stupid and ignorant animals roaming around the earth. God Himself even said come Lets (REASON) together. And the saints will come with Christ to (convince) the UNGODLY of their UNGODLY deeds. I can believe you don't understand that LOGIC is as much part of the mind as anything else is. Without Logic you would be Just a idiot. Logic's not the problem, it what guiding the logic that the problem.
peace………..gene
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Dec. 07 2008,04:47) EP……..no where in scripture does it show a single Person who taught the Trinity, in fact the WORD is not even in Scripture, But the Pagan world was full of the trinitarian teachings. All the way back as far as history goes it shows trinitarian teaching in pagan ideologies any good historian can prove that, the Greeks, Egyptian, Persians, Asians, etc all had there form of trinity worship, man gods were common ideologies and virgin berths were also, Trinity is not new but a very old pagan teaching. peace……………….gene
please… if I have to defend the fact that we use…. WE ALL USE words not found in the bible to describe our beliefs one more time I really think I will either scream or get ill…. how many times can people repeat this lie? Look, I will never believe you guys no matter how many times you repeat it…. and when will you ever learn that every single word you ever write in English is ITSELF a non-biblical word!!! If you want to insist on an absolute literalism, eg if you want to insist that the doctrine of the Trinity is not biblical simply because the word does not appear in the Scriptures, then 2 things entail…. 1) if you want to live by this rule CONSISTENTLY then you will absolutely have to learn Hebrew and Greek (and Aramaic) in order to speak and write “biblical” words and biblical words ONLY…. and 2) when you speak about your beliefs you will have to always make absolutely sure that no Hebrew, Greek or Aramaic word you ever use does not itself appear in the manuscripts. Of course there is the additional problem of asking about manuscripts and manuscript families, for some words that appear in one set of manuscripts might not appear in another, and vice versa.Also, even if you grant the use of English, which your “the word “Trinity does not appear in the bible therefore it is untrue” would not allow. then you will have to make sure that you use no words that do not appear in the English bible, but then again, which version of the English bible?
Lastly, on this point, you need to know this simple point:
just because something is not in the bible, it does not therefore NECESSARILY mean that it is unbiblical or false. In other words, non-biblical does not equate to unbiblical. The same thing is true for traditions. It may be a fine tradition to help little old ladies across the street, nowhere does this specific example appear in the scriptures, it is clear it is not unbiblical to help a little old lady across the street, it is nonbiblical, but not unbiblical. And I assert that the very same thing is true of the Trinity. The word itself does not appear in the Scriptures, but so what?Neither does the bible itself say that “there will only be 66 books in the inspired canon of Scriptures and no more”. You will find nowhere in the Scriptures itself which says such a thing. However the principle of a closed canon of Scripture is taught, in principle, in the Scriptures in various places. Of course some, like the Mormons, say that since this is true, then we have continuing revelation to this very day. I do not know what your particular views are in this area, but if you say that the canon is closed, thatr there will be no more writings that come along that are ever equal to or add to the Scriptures, then I challenge you to show me one single Scripture anywhere that states this specifically. If you can't, and I know very well that you cannot, then you have no rational grounds on which to stand to deny the Trinity for those reasons. You cannot have your cake and eat it too, as it were. If it is wrong to believe the Trinity because the specific words are not used, then it is wrong to believe that the canon of Scripture is close because there is no one single verse anywhere in the Bible which says that it is in fact closed.
Do you understand this? If it is unclear, p[lease tell me and I will try and explain it again. If you disagree, then please explain why, because as it is, anyone who believes in a closed canon and disagrees with the Trinity because the word does not appear in the bible is engaged in “special pleading”, and is thus, irrational.
Secondly, I categorically deny that no one taught the doctrine of the Trinity. Just because the word is not used, it does not therefore follow that the idea itself is not in the Scripture.
Thirdly. I categorically deny that the pagan world anywhere taught the Trinity. It is a uniquely Christian doctrine. There were many triads, but no Trinity. On this point, the fact of the matter is, many many religions have a universal flood, does this therefore make the fact that the Christian bible teaching a flood, and that universal floods are present in pagan religions, that therefore the universal flood doctrine is false? To be consistent, you would have to admit this. That is to say, I am not really granting that other religions do indeed teach something identical to the Trinity, but to suppose,. for the purpose of argument that it does, then any teaching in the Scripture anywhere that has a similar teaching found in pagan religions, lets say….. like the fact that there is a God/god for instance!!! lol…. well if the Trinity is false because pagan religions taught it, then Christianity MUST be false too, for it teaches that there is such a being as “God”, but then, other pagan religions teach that god or gods exist, therefore, according to this line of thinking, Christianity HAS to be false too!! Otherwise, just as above, all you are doing is engaging in special pleading, whats good for the goose is good for the gander, or, even better….. this sword cuts both ways.
blessings,
kenQuote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 08 2008,12:34) Hi,
Logic is of the so called wisdom of men.
The wisdom of God is of a higher order.Scripture is of the wisdom of God,
Lk11
49Therefore also said the wisdom of God, I will send them prophets and apostles, and some of them they shall slay and persecute:
no its not… I think you are confusing man-made philosophies with the word “logic”. Logic is simply clear thinking. God is a God of order, not chaos. So when God teaches us in His word the if something is, then it's opposite is not , for example, that if you do not believe in the Son, you cannot have eternal life, and then its opposite cannot be true as well, namely that you do not have to believe in the Son and you can STILL have eternal life….. this is impossible because of the nature of the word we live in…. both contradictory positions cannot be true…. but this is simply what the laws of logic describe…. ie principle of non-contradiction, though this particular phraseology is not used to describe it, the law of non-contradiction is still true.And this is important: the rules of logic are not so much invented as they are descriptions….. descriptions of the world we live in. So God can say in His word: “Come now, let us reason together, says the Lord” (Isa. 1:18a) God is just saying “come, let us be logical”.
What it really comes down to is your unibiblical beliefs, which are much like Gene's, that if a word does not appear in Scripture, you therefore irrationally think that this means that something is unbiblical versus being nonbiblical. Gene himself is irrational here too, for as he here, for some strange reason, defends logic as being of God, as being true, as being based on Scriptural principles, yet the word “logic” does not appear in the Scriptures. Yet he wants to say that this is fine, “logic” is true, but for some reason since the word “Trinity” does not appear in the Bible, it is automatically false.
Again, this is irrational and special pleading, its special pleading because Gene wants to make exceptions wherever he wants to his own rules, and if it is fine for “logic” to be true even though the word does not appear int he Scriptures, then it is equally and likewise fine that even though the word Trinity does not appear in the English translations of our bibles, it can be true as well. And it is just as irrational for you to object to “logic” because the word does not appear in the bible, because the principle clearly is there.
blessings,
kenEP……i agree in part with you, That logic is simply using our GOD given sense. But me saying the word TRINIYS is not in the Bible, is not the reason I disbelieve the trinity, I disbelive the Trinity for because the bible is full of oppitions to it, which i have listed many times, like for instance where Jesus said (THOU ART THE (ONLY) TRUE GOD) this is and example of many scriptures that go against the teaching of the Trinity. And i do agree something does not have to be specifically written to be implied, but thats not the reason The trinity (to me) scripturally is not taught and in fact is taught against, even by GOD HIMSELF (Thou shall have (NO) other Gods besides ME) And i could go on and on. I am sorry if you though because the WORD TRINITY isn't mentioned as such in scripture thats the reason I disbelieve it, but thats not the reason i disbelieve it, brother.
Ep……….your explanation of Logic I do agree with.
love and peace to you and yours……………………..gene
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