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jb,
Quote
You act as if I am limiting God just because I take scripture for what it actually says.From what I have seen, you have told me the scriptures that I have copied and pasted are wrong. If you took scripture for what it actually says, you would have no problem finding the pre-existence of Christ and the divinity of Christ.
Quote For instance, scripture NEVER says, “God the Son,” but, you insist on using such UNbiblical language because that is what YOU believe! I believe that IF Jesus is God, He would have said He was; however, He NEVER says that He is God! If you believe that John tells us that Jesus was just an ordinary man, then you have got to be crazy. Ordinary men do not say they are the Bread from heaven, or pass out bread and wine and tell people that is His body and blood given and shed for the remission of sins, or that He existed before Abraham, or to believe in Him as you believe in God, etc.
Regarding what you call 'unBiblical language,' can a person say “Jehovah, the Father” and you would be fine with that? Where specifically is “Jehovah, the Father” mentioned in the Bible? You do believe that can be said of Him though, right? Well, I believe, as do most Christians, that “Jehovah, the Son” or “God, the Son” can be said of Jesus.
Quote As for God the Son being able to be in service to God the Father..
Not if you believe that they are both YHVH. If they are both YHVH then they are the same being/person/God. Otherwise, you have to admit to 2 YHVHs, which is AGAINST exactly what the word of GOD says!!The Bible does not say that YHVH is one person. You assume so because of singular pronouns but unities use singular pronouns and singular verbs also. The Bible says that YHVH is both God of gods and Lord of lords. The NT tells us who is our one God and who is our one Lord. YHVH is both.
cont'd…
Quote What I am doing is explaining those verses IN LIGHT OF other scripture. I am not going based on “my bias.” I am going based on what OTHER VERSES IN THE BIBLE has to say about who Jesus is and is not! That is NOT bias. That is being able to read and understand the word of God. I could say the same thing. The trinitarians could say the same thing.
cont'd
Quote We KNOW and AGREE (I think) that the following is stated in scripture. 1) YHVH is one. YHVH is both God of gods and Lord of lords
2) Jesus states that the one true God is His Father. Scriptures also state that Jesus is a theos who is our Lord of lords, our ONE Lord-YHVH is our Lord of lords.
3) Jesus states that the day will come when the TRUE worshipers will worship THE FATHER. God, the Father exalts the Son and every knee will bow down to the Son.
4) Jesus denied being equal with God. where?
5) Scripture clearly shows a separation between Jesus and God. (as in repeatedly we have verses that say “God and Jesus”, which means they are separate and not both God. IF it said “the Father and Jesus” then you can claim that they both “could be” God; however, that is not what scripture actually says. It ACTUALLY says..God and Jesus)Scripture shows a separation between Jesus and God the Father…we have many verses that mention one as God and one as Lord…YHVH is both.
6) Jesus states that He spoke HIS FATHER's words and did HIS FATHER's will. And, He identifies His Father as..GOD!Seems like that would be the perfect thing to do as God the Son.
7) God and Jesus have a “unity.”Yes, our one God and our one Lord are united. YHVH is both God of gods and Lord of lords.Quote I see 1-6 from above and say that #7 must mean a unity of purpose or “mind.” That keeps the first 6 as still being Biblical and cohesive.
You, on the other hand, see #7 and try to redefine what 1-6 means. The problem is, this means that you have to then ADD or TAKE AWAY FROM what the Bible says.I don't have to add or take away anything:
It is written:
Deut 10:17
For the LORD your God is God of gods and Lord of lords, the great, the mighty, and the awesome God, who is not partial and takes no bribe.It is written:
1 Cor 8:6
yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist.It is written:
Rev 17:14
They will make war on the Lamb, and the Lamb will conquer them, for he is Lord of lords and King of kings, and those with him are called and chosen and faithful.”Quote You have to IGNORE that if the Father is YHVH and Jesus is YHVH then that is 2 YHVHs.
Yes, that would be two who are called YHVH who are one.Quote You HAVE to think that Jesus was not being honest when He said the things that He said.
Jesus said they were one also. Jesus was the truth and the life. He was always honest.Quote And WHY would God not just state that simple fact that He is 2 in 1?
He does, you just do not see it.
Deut 10:17
For the LORD your God is God of gods and Lord of lords, the great, the mighty, and the awesome God, who is not partial and takes no bribe.
John 10:30
“I and the Father are one.”Quote Jesus came to DECLARE God. So, why would He not say, “I am God, too”?
He compares Himself to God in many ways. For example, He calls Himself “The First and the Last” which was a title for God to the Jews understanding.Quote Can you be the “Son of” and “the Father”?
Yes, the Son gives eternal life to the saints and in that way He is a Father. He is not His own Father though.Isaiah 9:6
For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder, and his name shall be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
In that one verse, Jesus is called God, Father, Prince and Counselor.Quote Again, keep in mind that you can ONLY believe in ONE GOD; otherwise, your salvation is at stake, so says GOD!! Now, this means that the Son and the Father HAVE to be both the SAME GOD. IF NOT, then you have just created and worshiped TWO GODS!!
The One God that I believe in is BOTH God of gods AND Lord of lords; our one God the Father and our one Lord, Jesus Christ.You believe that they are both theos but not the same theos and not both YHVH. I believe that they are both theos and not the same theos as being the same person but they are both YHVH. They are one God as in a Godhead sense. You believe in one theos who is YHVH and one theos who is not YHVH for your salvation…it is you who believe in YHVH AND another god for your salvation. That is against scriptures.
Quote I am PLEADING with you to rethink what you believe!! I truly care about you!!
Thank you for caring. The time we both spend in our posts to each other reflects a mutual care and concern.Quote (jb2u @ June 20 2013,15:14) FIVE QUESTIONS, PLEASE ANSWER. You state that the Prince was 100% prince and 100% pauper. You state that “Jesus didn't empty Himself of being God, the Son.”
If you insist on believing that Jesus was God, even while on Earth, then
1) WHY did He need God to do miracles or speak His words?
2) WHY couldn't He just use His own “God powers” to do such things or know such things?
3) Knowing that “GOD” can not die, at what point did Jesus' “God side” leave Him?
4) WHO resurrected Jesus?
5) HOW can Jesus and the Father be ONE when Jesus states that He and His Father are TWO witnesses?Quote 1) WHY did He need God to do miracles or speak His words? Because He was God the Son who became man. He was being like us…we need God to do miracles and give us His words.
Quote 2) WHY couldn't He just use His own “God powers” to do such things or know such things? Because He emptied Himself and lowered Himself to become like us so He could be our kinsman redeemer and our High Priest who can sympathize with us.
Quote 3) Knowing that “GOD” can not die, at what point did Jesus' “God side” leave Him? It was probably when He committed His Spirit into the Father's hands just before He took His last breath.
Quote 4) WHO resurrected Jesus?
His Father.Quote 5) HOW can Jesus and the Father be ONE when Jesus states that He and His Father are TWO witnesses?
They are two persons who are one.My question to you…did you read about the Massorah?
Quote (Lightenup @ June 23 2013,16:19) From what I have seen, you have told me the scriptures that I have copied and pasted are wrong. If you took scripture for what it actually says, you would have no problem finding the pre-existence of Christ and the divinity of Christ. If you believe that John tells us that Jesus was just an ordinary man, then you have got to be crazy. Ordinary men do not say they are the Bread from heaven, or pass out bread and wine and tell people that is His body and blood given and shed for the remission of sins, or that He existed before Abraham, or to believe in Him as you believe in God, etc.
Regarding what you call 'unBiblical language,' can a person say “Jehovah, the Father” and you would be fine with that? Where specifically is “Jehovah, the Father” mentioned in the Bible? You do believe that can be said of Him though, right? Well, I believe, as do most Christians, that “Jehovah, the Son” or “God, the Son” can be said of Jesus.
Quote As for God the Son being able to be in service to God the Father..
Not if you believe that they are both YHVH. If they are both YHVH then they are the same being/person/God. Otherwise, you have to admit to 2 YHVHs, which is AGAINST exactly what the word of GOD says!!The Bible does not say that YHVH is one person. You assume so because of singular pronouns but unities use singular pronouns and singular verbs also. The Bible says that YHVH is both God of gods and Lord of lords. The NT tells us who is our one God and who is our one Lord. YHVH is both.
1) I do take scripture for what it says. That is why I do not say such things as..God the Son. Notice that you say that “I would have no problem FINDING the pre-existence of Christ and the divinity of Christ.” Why would I need to FIND it, IF it is stated in scripture? If it is, what verses state that Christ pre-existed? Keep in mind that there is a Greek word for pre-exist! Where does it say that Christ existed AS a deity?2) I am not saying that Jesus was “just an ordinary man.” He was an extraordinary man!! He was the Son of God. NOT the pre-existent Son of God, but still, the Son of God!!
3) WHERE is “Jehovah, the Father” found in scripture? Really?
Isaiah 63:16
But you are our Father, though Abraham does not know us or Israel acknowledge us; you, Lord (YHVH in Hebrew), are our Father, our Redeemer from of old is your name.Isaiah 64:8
Yet you, Lord (YHVH in Hebrew), are our Father. We are the clay, you are the potter; we are all the work of your hand.YHVH talking here..
Jeremiah 31:1
At the same time, saith the Lord (YHVH in Hebrew), will I be the God of all the families of Israel, and they shall be my people.Jeremiah 31:9
They will come with weeping; they will pray as I bring them back. I will lead them beside streams of water on a level path where they will not stumble, because I am Israel’s father, and Ephraim is my firstborn son.SO..YES, I would say that it is Biblical to say God, the Father or Jehovah, the Father..because it is IN SCRIPTURE!!
What is NOT in scripture and is UNbiblical is God the Son!!
4) I do not ASSUME that YHVH is one person. YHVH identifies HIMSELF as ONE and identifies HIMSELF as the Father and Jesus Identifies God as His Father and our Father!! That is enough for me to believe that YHVH is one!! The fact that Jesus never claims to be God is enough for me. The fact that scripture never calls Jesus YHVH is enough for me. No assumptions needed on MY part. It takes assumptions to turn “I am one” into “I am two in one.” Honestly! You still end up with 2 YHVHs!! And that, once again, is unbiblical.
Quote (Lightenup @ June 23 2013,16:22) cont'd… Quote What I am doing is explaining those verses IN LIGHT OF other scripture. I am not going based on “my bias.” I am going based on what OTHER VERSES IN THE BIBLE has to say about who Jesus is and is not! That is NOT bias. That is being able to read and understand the word of God. I could say the same thing. The trinitarians could say the same thing.
I disagree! BECAUSE..you say Jesus and God are both YHVH, and yet, no where does it say that!!The trinitarians go a step further and include the Holy Spirit as YHVH. Again, scripture does NOT support that.
Quote (Lightenup @ June 23 2013,17:15) 1) YHVH is one. YHVH is both God of gods and Lord of lords
2) Jesus states that the one true God is His Father. Scriptures also state that Jesus is a theos who is our Lord of lords, our ONE Lord-YHVH is our Lord of lords.
3) Jesus states that the day will come when the TRUE worshipers will worship THE FATHER. God, the Father exalts the Son and every knee will bow down to the Son.
4) Jesus denied being equal with God. where?
5) Scripture clearly shows a separation between Jesus and God. (as in repeatedly we have verses that say “God and Jesus”, which means they are separate and not both God. IF it said “the Father and Jesus” then you can claim that they both “could be” God; however, that is not what scripture actually says. It ACTUALLY says..God and Jesus)Scripture shows a separation between Jesus and God the Father…we have many verses that mention one as God and one as Lord…YHVH is both.
6) Jesus states that He spoke HIS FATHER's words and did HIS FATHER's will. And, He identifies His Father as..GOD!Seems like that would be the perfect thing to do as God the Son.
7) God and Jesus have a “unity.”Yes, our one God and our one Lord are united. YHVH is both God of gods and Lord of lords.
1) I agree2) YES..Jesus is Lord of Lords..and God the Father is the ONE TRUE GOD!!
3) God exalts Jesus; therefore, Jesus is NOT God. God has bestowed honor upon Jesus, and thus, every knee will bow to Him..as Lord..not as God.
4) John 14:28
Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.If Jesus' Father is GREATER then they are NOT equal. There are other examples, but this alone is enough to prove that He did not feel that He was equal to God.
5) YHVH can be both God and Lord. These are only titles anyway. Where is Jesus ever called “God of gods”?
6) It would also be the perfect thing for the Servant of the Lord to do in order to remain perfect so that He could die the perfect sacrifice for our sins.
7) see #5
Quote (Lightenup @ June 23 2013,17:15) Quote You have to IGNORE that if the Father is YHVH and Jesus is YHVH then that is 2 YHVHs.
Yes, that would be two who are called YHVH who are one.
This just makes me laugh every time I read it!!And then, I am sad that so many fall for this!!
Quote (Lightenup @ June 23 2013,17:15) Quote You HAVE to think that Jesus was not being honest when He said the things that He said.
Jesus said they were one also. Jesus was the truth and the life. He was always honest.Quote And WHY would God not just state that simple fact that He is 2 in 1?
He does, you just do not see it.
Deut 10:17
For the LORD your God is God of gods and Lord of lords, the great, the mighty, and the awesome God, who is not partial and takes no bribe.
John 10:30
“I and the Father are one.”
Jesus is honest..now I want you to be..Does He ONLY say, “I and my Father are one”?
30 I and my Father are one.31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.
32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?
33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.
34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?
So when we read the WHOLE thing and not just what leads us to believe in FALSE doctrine..we find that Jesus clarifies FOR THE JEWS THAT DID NOT UNDERSTAND WHAT HE WAS SAYING!! He was saying that He is the SON of God and not that He IS God!! Jesus could NOT have made it more clear for you or them!! And yet, just like those Jews, you do not see what He was saying. YOU are accusing Jesus of THE EXACT SAME THING that the Jews FALSELY accused Him of!!
This would honestly be funny, if it were not so, so, so sad. There is a running theme in the Gospel, if you haven't noticed!! The ones that did not understand..the ones that were WRONG..ALL thought that Jesus was either making Himself out to BE God or equal to God, and in BOTH cases, the Gospel shows that they were wrong in this thinking!! Does this not get your attention? Or, will you continue to hold on to what you believe to be true, in spite of what the Gospel says?
Quote (Lightenup @ June 23 2013,17:15) The One God that I believe in is BOTH God of gods AND Lord of lords; our one God the Father and our one Lord, Jesus Christ. You believe that they are both theos but not the same theos and not both YHVH. I believe that they are both theos and not the same theos as being the same person but they are both YHVH. They are one God as in a Godhead sense. You believe in one theos who is YHVH and one theos who is not YHVH for your salvation…it is you who believe in YHVH AND another god for your salvation. That is against scriptures.
I think you are having a hard time understanding what “theos” is really. It is just a title!! Even God says that there are “gods many and lords many” so don't put this off on me!!My salvation is through Jesus, the Christ, the ANOINTED one of GOD. That is not against scripture. That is exactly what GOD tells me to believe in!! My salvation comes FROM God, but THROUGH Jesus!!
The one true Lamb came to cover our sins for good!! Because we are covered by the blood of Jesus, we receive salvation from God.
Quote (Lightenup @ June 19 2013,15:11) I suggest that you get informed about the Massorah. Jesus is called YHVH in v. 5 of Psalms 110. The Sopherim replaced YHVH with Adonay in many places but they kept records of the change in the margins. Here, read this:
http://www.therain.org/appendixes/app30.html
I am reading up on this, but I'd like to point out..1) The link that you gave me leads to Dr. Ginsburg's book on the Massorah. First, he even admits in his book that he made some mistakes and that he certainly has made other errors. This is important to understand because he could also be wrong about what leads you to believe what you believe!! Second, he has been criticized for his methods. And Third, his book/beliefs are not the inspired word of God.
2) Why do you keep on needing to go OUTSIDE the Bible in order to “prove your point”? Do you not see something wrong with the fact that I use the actual scripture to identify/explain why I believe what I believe, while you want to talk about the targums and massorah?
3) The targums and the massorah are NOT the inspired word of God!! Let's stick with the Bible.
jb,
I have been showing you that Jesus is our God and Savior with the Bible but when you claim that what I am showing you is wrong, then I show you supporting extra-Biblical evidence. Then when I show you extra-Biblical supporting evidence, you say let's stick to the Bible. Do you see what you are doing? I'll show you what I mean:You say that saying 'God, the Son' is not a Biblical term and I asked you to show me where 'YHVH, the Father' was a Biblical term. You failed to show me those three words written together but instead showed me where the concept is. Well, I have shown you where the concept is of 'God, the Son' but you won't accept it. However, I will show you where “our God and Savior, Jesus Christ” is and you can only use your bias to disagree.
2 Peter 1:1 Simeon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to those who did obtain a like precious faith with us in the righteousness of our God and Saviour Jesus Christ:
Titus 2:13 waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,
So, I will try to remember to call Him “our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ.”
There my point is proved and I have not gone outside the Bible to prove it.
Also, you asked me why you should have to 'find' the pre-existence of Christ…the answer is because you have lost it. Seek and you shall find!
Our Great God and Savior, Jesus Christ was with the Father from the beginning, in fact He was the eternal life with the Father.
1 John 1
1That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked at and our hands have touched—this we proclaim concerning the Word of life. 2The life appeared; we have seen it and testify to it, and we proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and has appeared to us. 3We proclaim to you what we have seen and heard, so that you also may have fellowship with us. And our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son, Jesus Christ. 4We write this to make our joy complete.Now my question to you is:
Have I shown you with just using the Bible that Jesus is called “our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ?”Furthermore, you claim that Jesus never says that He is YHVH but the NT that is translated from the Greek manuscripts uses the word Kyrios for YHVH and therefore you will not find Jesus saying that He is YHVH from a translation of the Greek manuscripts. You can find where God the Father calls Him YHVH if you look back to see what He is quoting from the OT though and that is good enough for me.
BTW, you will not find Jesus calling His Father 'YHWH' except by the very same method of referring to the OT.
Quote (Lightenup @ June 27 2013,04:52) Now my question to you is:
Have I shown you with just using the Bible that Jesus is called “our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ?”
No. You have shown me an incorrect translation of the Bible, (the NIV I assume?), but you have not shown me where the inspired word of God says Jesus is God!The original scripture would read as such..
OURGREATGODANDSAVIORJESUSCHRIST
You see, NO commas or spaces or lower case letters!
What does this mean? It means that MAN has decided when translating the Bible where to put commas and what letters to capitalize. Now, almost ALL translations of the Bible were translated by trinitarians; and so, they would have no problem with adding a comma here or capitalizing a letter there, such as “the word” in John 1:1, when it is convenient to their beliefs. However, if they and you are being honest, then you would have to admit that the Bible could have been corrupted by the trinitarians that translated the Bible, right? We already know that certain verses that are not found in the manuscripts have made there way into the Bible. We know that, since there are NO lowercase letters in the Greek and Hebrew manuscripts, that MAN decided what should be capitalized. Furthermore, we know that these men were trinitarians, and, as you say, no doubt translated the Bible with THAT BIAS. This is your idea, not mine. You say I interpret with MY bias. This would also mean that those trinitarians, such as John Wycliffe, also translated with a bias. Thank you for understanding that concept!!Quote (Lightenup @ June 27 2013,04:59) Furthermore, you claim that Jesus never says that He is YHVH but the NT that is translated from the Greek manuscripts uses the word Kyrios for YHVH and therefore you will not find Jesus saying that He is YHVH from a translation of the Greek manuscripts. You can find where God the Father calls Him YHVH if you look back to see what He is quoting from the OT though and that is good enough for me. BTW, you will not find Jesus calling His Father 'YHWH' except by the very same method of referring to the OT.
This shows a misunderstanding.Kyrios is a greek word meaning lord or master.
It is a TITLE. You MUST understand that!! Just because you call YHVH by “Lord” and you call Jesus by “Lord” does not mean that they are the only ones that can use the TITLE kyrios!! It also does not mean that they are both YHVH.
The argument that you are trying to make is this..
YHVH is called “Father” and therefore, by your logic, I would be calling my dad “God” if I call him “father.” However, you would KNOW that if I call my dad “father” I am only calling him by a title and NOT saying that he is God!!
You really need to understand the difference between a TITLE and a NAME. GOD's title is Lord. His NAME is YHVH. And no, your corrupted version calling Jesus YHVH is not proof that Jesus is YHVH.
You did not answer this question..
5) YHVH can be both God and Lord. These are only titles anyway. Where is Jesus ever called “God of gods”?
Quote (jb2u @ June 26 2013,19:59) Quote (Lightenup @ June 27 2013,04:52) Now my question to you is:
Have I shown you with just using the Bible that Jesus is called “our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ?”
No. You have shown me an incorrect translation of the Bible, (the NIV I assume?), but you have not shown me where the inspired word of God says Jesus is God!The original scripture would read as such..
OURGREATGODANDSAVIORJESUSCHRIST
You see, NO commas or spaces or lower case letters!
What does this mean? It means that MAN has decided when translating the Bible where to put commas and what letters to capitalize. Now, almost ALL translations of the Bible were translated by trinitarians; and so, they would have no problem with adding a comma here or capitalizing a letter there, such as “the word” in John 1:1, when it is convenient to their beliefs. However, if they and you are being honest, then you would have to admit that the Bible could have been corrupted by the trinitarians that translated the Bible, right? We already know that certain verses that are not found in the manuscripts have made there way into the Bible. We know that, since there are NO lowercase letters in the Greek and Hebrew manuscripts, that MAN decided what should be capitalized. Furthermore, we know that these men were trinitarians, and, as you say, no doubt translated the Bible with THAT BIAS. This is your idea, not mine. You say I interpret with MY bias. This would also mean that those trinitarians, such as John Wycliffe, also translated with a bias. Thank you for understanding that concept!!
jb2u,
Apparently you do not know Greek grammar. In Greek grammar, the spelling of a word tells the reader if it is the subject of the sentence or just a noun or a verb and whether the verb is first person, second person, or third person. Also, if the verb is present tense, future tense or aorist tense, and if the subject did the action or the action was done to the subject, among other things. In this verse the grammar demonstrates that God and Savior both refer to Jesus Christ.So, there is much more about translating the Greek than deciding where the capital letters go and the commas.
Furthermore, the verse says “our” God and Savior Jesus Christ. You say that Jesus is no ones theos/god/God. That is not what the Bible says. And there are several translations that translate it correctly:
Quote New International Version (©2011)
Simon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who through the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ have received a faith as precious as ours:New Living Translation (©2007)
This letter is from Simon Peter, a slave and apostle of Jesus Christ. I am writing to you who share the same precious faith we have. This faith was given to you because of the justice and fairness of Jesus Christ, our God and Savior.English Standard Version (©2001)
Simeon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have obtained a faith of equal standing with ours by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ:New American Standard Bible (©1995)
Simon Peter, a bond-servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have received a faith of the same kind as ours, by the righteousness of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ:King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:Holman Christian Standard Bible (©2009)
Simeon Peter, a slave and an apostle of Jesus Christ: To those who have obtained a faith of equal privilege with ours through the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ.International Standard Version (©2012)
From: Simeon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus, the Messiah. To: Those who have received faith that is as valuable as ours through the righteousness of our God and Savior, Jesus the Messiah.NET Bible (©2006)
From Simeon Peter, a slave and apostle of Jesus Christ, to those who through the righteousness of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ, have been granted a faith just as precious as ours.GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
From Simon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ. To those who have obtained a faith that is as valuable as ours, a faith based on the approval that comes from our God and Savior, Jesus Christ.Douay-Rheims Bible
Simon Peter, servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained equal faith with us in the justice of our God and Saviour Jesus Christ.Darby Bible Translation
Simon Peter, bondman and apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have received like precious faith with us through the righteousness of our God and Saviour Jesus Christ:English Revised Version
Simon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained a like precious faith with us in the righteousness of our God and Saviour Jesus Christ:World English Bible
Simon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, to those who have obtained a like precious faith with us in the righteousness of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ:Young's Literal Translation
Simeon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to those who did obtain a like precious faith with us in the righteousness of our God and Saviour Jesus Christ:About having a bias, I assume that can creep in but the Granville Sharp rule applies here and is not subjective.
You cannot just assume that translators translated the Bible to satisfy their bias when you don't agree because it doesn't fit your understanding. That is simply ignorance. We are to test things and this verse has certainly been tested. Here is what NET notes says about this verse:
Quote 5 tn The terms “God and Savior” both refer to the same person, Jesus Christ. This is one of the clearest statements in the NT concerning the deity of Christ. The construction in Greek is known as the Granville Sharp rule, named after the English philanthropist-linguist who first clearly articulated the rule in 1798. Sharp pointed out that in the construction article-noun-καί-noun (where καί [kai] = “and”), when two nouns are singular, personal, and common (i.e., not proper names), they always had the same referent. Illustrations such as “the friend and brother,” “the God and Father,” etc. abound in the NT to prove Sharp’s point. In fact, the construction occurs elsewhere in 2 Peter, strongly suggesting that the author’s idiom was the same as the rest of the NT authors’ (cf., e.g., 1:11 [“the Lord and Savior”], 2:20 [“the Lord and Savior”]). The only issue is whether terms such as “God” and “Savior” could be considered common nouns as opposed to proper names. Sharp and others who followed (such as T. F. Middleton in his masterful The Doctrine of the Greek Article) demonstrated that a proper name in Greek was one that could not be pluralized. Since both “God” (θεός, qeos) and “savior” (σωτήρ, swthr) were occa
sionally found in the plural, they did not constitute proper names, and hence, do fit Sharp’s rule. Although there have been 200 years of attempts to dislodge Sharp’s rule, all attempts have been futile. Sharp’s rule stands vindicated after all the dust has settled. For more information on the application of Sharp’s rule to 2 Pet 1:1, see ExSyn 272, 276-77, 290. See also Titus 2:13 and Jude 4.from: https://net.bible.org/#!bible/2+Peter+1
So now, you cannot say that the Bible does not say that Jesus is God because He is called our God and Savior which I have clearly shown you in several translations and the notes regarding the Greek construction. This is not debatable.
So, my question:
Does the Bible say that Jesus is our God and Savior in all 14 of those translations quoted above?Quote (jb2u @ June 26 2013,20:15) Quote (Lightenup @ June 27 2013,04:59) Furthermore, you claim that Jesus never says that He is YHVH but the NT that is translated from the Greek manuscripts uses the word Kyrios for YHVH and therefore you will not find Jesus saying that He is YHVH from a translation of the Greek manuscripts. You can find where God the Father calls Him YHVH if you look back to see what He is quoting from the OT though and that is good enough for me. BTW, you will not find Jesus calling His Father 'YHWH' except by the very same method of referring to the OT.
This shows a misunderstanding.Kyrios is a greek word meaning lord or master.
It is a TITLE. You MUST understand that!! Just because you call YHVH by “Lord” and you call Jesus by “Lord” does not mean that they are the only ones that can use the TITLE kyrios!! It also does not mean that they are both YHVH.
The argument that you are trying to make is this..
YHVH is called “Father” and therefore, by your logic, I would be calling my dad “God” if I call him “father.” However, you would KNOW that if I call my dad “father” I am only calling him by a title and NOT saying that he is God!!
You really need to understand the difference between a TITLE and a NAME. GOD's title is Lord. His NAME is YHVH. And no, your corrupted version calling Jesus YHVH is not proof that Jesus is YHVH.
I certainly understand that kurios can refer to a man who is a master and not YHVH. However, sometimes it is used where YHVH is originally written or when YHVH is meant.In Heb 1
Quote 8But about the Son he says, “Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever;
a scepter of justice will be the scepter of your kingdom.
9You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness;
therefore God, your God, has set you above your companions
by anointing you with the oil of joy.”e
10He also says,
“In the beginning, Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth,
and the heavens are the work of your hands.
11They will perish, but you remain;
they will all wear out like a garment.
12You will roll them up like a robe;
like a garment they will be changed.
But you remain the same,
and your years will never end.”
If you look that passage up in the OT, what the Son is said to have done in the Hebrews passage, Jehovah is said to have done in the Psalms passage.
Compare:
Psalm 102Quote 1Hear my prayer, O Jehovah, And let my cry come unto thee. 2Hide not thy face from me in the day of my distress: Incline thine ear unto me; In the day when I call answer me speedily.
3For my days consume away like smoke, And my bones are burned as a firebrand.
4My heart is smitten like grass, and withered; For I forget to eat my bread.
5By reason of the voice of my groaning My bones cleave to my flesh.
6I am like a pelican of the wilderness; I am become as an owl of the waste places.
7I watch, and am become like a sparrow That is alone upon the house-top.
8Mine enemies reproach me all the day; They that are mad against me do curse by me.
9For I have eaten ashes like bread, And mingled my drink with weeping,
10Because of thine indignation and thy wrath: For thou hast taken me up, and cast me away.
11My days are like a shadow that declineth; And I am withered like grass.
12But thou, O Jehovah, wilt abide for ever; And thy memorial name unto all generations.
13Thou wilt arise, and have mercy upon Zion; For it is time to have pity upon her, Yea, the set time is come.
14For thy servants take pleasure in her stones, And have pity upon her dust.
15So the nations shall fear the name of Jehovah, And all the kings of the earth thy glory.
16For Jehovah hath built up Zion; He hath appeared in his glory.
17He hath regarded the prayer of the destitute, And hath not despised their prayer.
18This shall be written for the generation to come; And a people which shall be created shall praise Jehovah.
19For he hath looked down from the height of his sanctuary; From heaven did Jehovah behold the earth;
20To hear the sighing of the prisoner; To loose those that are appointed to death;
21That men may declare the name of Jehovah in Zion, And his praise in Jerusalem;
22When the peoples are gathered together, And the kingdoms, to serve Jehovah.
23He weakened my strength in the way; He shortened my days.
24I said, O my God, take me not away in the midst of my days: Thy years are throughout all generations.
25Of old didst thou lay the foundation of the earth; And the heavens are the work of thy hands.
26They shall perish, but thou shalt endure; Yea, all of them shall wax old like a garment; As a vesture shalt thou change them, and they shall be changed:
27But thou art the same, And thy years shall have no end.
28The children of thy servants shall continue, And their seed shall be established before thee.
Quote (jb2u @ June 26 2013,20:18) You did not answer this question.. 5) YHVH can be both God and Lord. These are only titles anyway. Where is Jesus ever called “God of gods”?
Jesus is called YHVH and as part of the unity of YHVH, the term 'God of gods' would apply to them together as He is never separated from the Father. Individually, it is not applied from what I can tell but collectively it is.Quote (Lightenup @ June 28 2013,06:09) jb2u,
Apparently you do not know Greek grammar. In Greek grammar, the spelling of a word tells the reader if it is the subject of the sentence or just a noun or a verb and whether the verb is first person, second person, or third person. Also, if the verb is present tense, future tense or aorist tense, and if the subject did the action or the action was done to the subject, among other things. In this verse the grammar demonstrates that God and Savior both refer to Jesus Christ.So, there is much more about translating the Greek than deciding where the capital letters go and the commas.
Furthermore, the verse says “our” God and Savior Jesus Christ. You say that Jesus is no ones theos/god/God. That is not what the Bible says. And there are several translations that translate it correctly:
I never claimed to be a Greek scholar. Furthermore, Greek scholars go back and forth upon certain meanings and word formations in the Bible. I use the Bible to help me decide. If God is one, as it says, and Jesus is His SON, then I would not say that Jesus is the Father God.Now, the word used is “theou” which in other verses is translated as being “of God” or “God's”. (see Matthew 22:21, Mark 8:33).
Anyone that is given authority by God is a theos. So, yes, Jesus is a theos. I never said that He was not. What I said is He is not the ONE ALMIGHTY THEOS, YHVH.
Do you see the difference?
I already told you that all the letters in the Bible open with some kind of greeting from/in the name of God and Jesus. The same scholars that say “well it says our God and Savior..so it must mean that they are the same person.” However, when the Bible reads..our God and our Savior..these same scholars get quiet and point back to the verses that they say prove their point.
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