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Why would the “grace of God” be “UPON” Jesus (Luke 2:40) if Jesus IS God? Again, this makes NO SENSE if Jesus IS God!Again:
Keep in mind that He emptied Himself of whatever was necessary to become like man.Phil 2:7
but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men.Heb 2
14Since the children have flesh and blood, he too shared in their humanity so that by his death he might break the power of him who holds the power of death—that is, the devil— 15and free those who all their lives were held in slavery by their fear of death. 16For surely it is not angels he helps, but Abraham’s descendants. 17For this reason he had to be made like them, fully human in every way, in order that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in service to God, and that he might make atonement for the sins of the people. 18Because he himself suffered when he was tempted, he is able to help those who are being tempted.Quote (jb2u @ June 11 2013,08:53) Quote Once again, I am not stating that the Targums are inerrant. The Targums definitely state some of the Jews understanding of the OT. So when Jesus speaks about what the Jews knew and that 'the Jews worship what they know,' we can see from the Targums that they worshiped the 'Word of Jehovah' as Jehovah.
There are 2 problems with this statement…
1) You claim that you know that the Targums are not inerrant, but then claim that the Targums are correct about the meaning of the “word of God.” If the Targums are not inerrant, as you claim to know, then how do you know that what they believed about the “word of God” is correct?2) You assume that the Jews that wrote/believed in the Targums were the Jews that knew/believed in the right thing. We know that there were various groups of Jews that believed in the wrong thing. How do we know that one of these groups did not write the Targums?
Quote There really is no problem finding the divinity of Christ in the Bible only. Yet you have trouble with this too. See here for example: Let's see….
Quote Isaiah 54:5
“For your husband is your Maker, Whose name is the LORD of hosts; And your Redeemer is the Holy One of Israel, Who is called the God of all the earth.Please, please, please….pay close attention! This is why I say taking a verse out of context is DANGEROUS! Who is this verse about? Who is the Maker? Who is the God of all the Earth? It is God (the Father) not Jesus. Look at Isaiah 53:11
He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many: for he shall bear their iniquities.Do you see? YHVH calls Jesus “my servant.” This is powerful! You have to see it Lightenup! So, now, in context, we know that the verse that you refer to is NOT calling Jesus God. It is calling God “the Maker and God of all the Earth.” Why? Because the Jews thought of God as “their God”. The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.
Quote Mark 12:35 While Jesus was teaching in the temple courts, he asked, “How is it that the teachers of the law say that the Christ is the son of David? 36David himself, speaking by the Holy Spirit, declared: “‘The Lord said to my Lord:
“Sit at my right hand
until I put your enemies
under your feet.”’i
37 David himself calls him ‘Lord.’ How then can he be his son?”This one I already explained to you. God has MADE Jesus our Lord; therefore, Jesus is the son of David and David's Lord. Jesus was BORN in the line of David, as promised, and, at His death, He has become the Lord of lords and King of kings!
Quote John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being. 4In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. Again, it does NOT say..”in the beginning was the Son, and the Son was with God, and the Son was God.” Right? Or do you think that's what it says? In my Bible it says “word” NOT “Son” or “Jesus.”
Quote Luke 1:11 And an angel of the Lord appeared to him, standing to the right of the altar of incense. 12Zacharias was troubled when he saw the angel, and fear gripped him. 13But the angel said to him, “Do not be afraid, Zacharias, for your petition has been heard, and your wife Elizabeth will bear you a son, and you will give him the name John. 14“You will have joy and gladness, and many will rejoice at his birth. 15“For he will be great in the sight of the Lord; and he will drink no wine or liquor, and he will be filled with the Holy Spirit while yet in his mother’s womb. 16“And he will turn many of the sons of Israel back to the Lord their God . 17“It is he who will go as a forerunner before Him in the spirit and power of Elijah, TO TURN THE HEARTS OF THE FATHERS BACK TO THE CHILDREN, and the disobedient to the attitude of the righteous, so as to make ready a people prepared forthe Lord .” The “Lord their God” here is the same one that John goes before as a forerunner…i.e. Jesus.
Incorrect!! The “Lord their God” is YHVH, not Jesus. It does not say Jesus is the Lord their God. This is only your interpretation.
Quote John 1:18
No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.Again, this is only in YOUR version of the Bible. I already explained that this manuscript only came from one area. All other manuscripts from all over do not say “only begotten God.” I would question this verse if I were you! NOWHERE else in the Bible is this phrase used! Why do you think that is? Why was this version only found in one area while ALL the other areas' manuscripts do not say “only begotten God”?
Quote John 11:25
Jesus said to her, “ I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me will live even if he dies, 26and everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die.Do you really think this is because Jesus is God? You MUST believe in Jesus because GOD SAID SO!! It is NOT enough to just believe in GOD. Jesus is the sacrifice for OUR sins; therefore, GOD has EXALTED Jesus to such great honor as we MUST believe in HIM in order to receive the benefits of HIS sacrifice!! It really is that simple!!
Quote Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God!”
This is actually another ambiguous verse. Some scholars say Thomas is “seeing” for the first time that Jesus IS the Messiah and therefore says..”My Lord” to Jesus and “My God” to YHVH. Now, I know you will reject that, but it is one explanation. Notice that Thomas does NOT say “my Lord and God”, instead he says “MY Lord and MY God”. This would seem to imply that he is talking about TWO different people. Also, some scholars say that Thomas might be
referring back to when Jesus said if you've seen me, you've seen the Father. This, too, would explain why Thomas would say such a thing. He is FINALLY acknowledging Jesus as the Son of God that reflects GOD.Quote Acts 20:28 Keep watch over yourselves and all the flock of which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers. Be shepherds of the church of God, which he bought with his own blood. Again, some problems, 1) there are many early manuscripts that say “church of the Lord.” 2) There are many versions that say “which he bought with the blood of his own Son.” 3) It would make since, seeing how God does not have blood, right? 4) Again, ambiguous verse that I would NOT make my argument with!
What DOES Paul say in Acts.. How about Acts 20:21
Testifying both to the Jews and also to the Greeks, repentance toward GOD and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ.SO, Paul taught to REPENT to GOD and BELIEVE IN Jesus.
God is…well…GOD and Jesus is…Lord!! That is pretty clear to me!!Quote Acts 10:34
34Opening his mouth, Peter said:
“I most certainly understand now that God is not one to show partiality, 35but in every nation the man who fears Him and does what is right is welcome to Him. 36“The word which He sent to the sons of Israel,preaching peace through Jesus Christ (He is Lord of all) —Your KILLING me!! Jesus IS Lord of all. He is just NOT God. You are making my point for me. Again, Jesus IS Lord of lords and King of kings! Notice that it does not say “GOD.” Notice that you did NOT continue the chapter that states in verse 38 that God anointed Jesus with the Holy Ghost or that God was WITH Him, NOT God WAS HIM but God was WITH him or that GOD ORDAINED Jesus or that God RAISED Jesus or that God MADE Jesus judge of the quick and the dead! No, you left ALL of that out. WHY?
Quote Romans 9:5
Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them is traced the human ancestry of Christ, who is God over all, forever praised! Amen.
Again, this is a translation error. There are NO commas in Greek. The meaning, by many scholars, is stated to be God who is over all be blessed to the ages or God being over all be blessed to the ages. This, however, does not prove that Jesus is GOD. Furthermore, Paul declares in Romans 1 that “concerning his SON Jesus Christ our Lord.” This would mean that Jesus is NOT God, but rather God's SON. So we have to believe that Paul would not turn around and contradict himself in Chapter 9 by calling Jesus GOD. Right? Seriously, right?You go on to quote a bunch of verses calling Jesus by Lord. I have already showed that Jesus is Lord. I never denied that. I only reject the notion that Jesus is GOD.
Jb you asked several things in this post and I will begin answering them. I don't know how far I will get through your post but here goes:Quote There are 2 problems with this statement…
1) You claim that you know that the Targums are not inerrant, but then claim that the Targums are correct about the meaning of the “word of God.” If the Targums are not inerrant, as you claim to know, then how do you know that what they believed about the “word of God” is correct?Just because I don't know the Targums are with or without error does not mean they are all in complete error. I linked you to them because they give understanding of at least some of the Jews and shows that they considered the 'Word of the LORD' to be YHVH in some sense. So when the Jews are said to know what they worship, the Targums show us that the “Word of the LORD” was worshiped by at least some of the Jews.
I am not making a case for whether what they believed about the 'word of the LORD' is correct or not. I am just showing you that the 'Word of the LORD' was worshiped and considered YHVH in some sense in the understanding of the Jews who wrote those Targums.
Quote 2) You assume that the Jews that wrote/believed in the Targums were the Jews that knew/believed in the right thing. We know that there were various groups of Jews that believed in the wrong thing. How do we know that one of these groups did not write the Targums? It doesn't matter what group of Jews wrote the Targums for my point to be made. My point is that there was a Jewish understanding among some or all Jews that the 'Word of the LORD' was worshiped and is identified with YHVH in some manner in their understanding.
Quote Please, please, please….pay close attention! This is why I say taking a verse out of context is DANGEROUS! Who is this verse about? Who is the Maker? Who is the God of all the Earth? It is God (the Father) not Jesus. Look at Isaiah 53:11
He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many: for he shall bear their iniquities.Do you see? YHVH calls Jesus “my servant.” This is powerful! You have to see it Lightenup! So, now, in context, we know that the verse that you refer to is NOT calling Jesus God. It is calling God “the Maker and God of all the Earth.” Why? Because the Jews thought of God as “their God”. The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.
The Creator is the Father through the Son. 1 Cor 8:6 clarifies this. Also, regarding Jesus as being the servant, They actually serve each other. The Father serves the Son as a Father would and the Son serves the Father as a Son would. If you are a father, you know that you definitely serve your kids…you provide for them, you clothe and feed them, you coach them, etc. They in turn then serve you by helping with chores, bringing you your drink, finding the remote, assisting you when you are old and senile, etc.
The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob is YHVH. YHVH is both the God of gods AND the Lord of lords. Jesus is the Lord of lords.
Quote This one I already explained to you. God has MADE Jesus our Lord; therefore, Jesus is the son of David and David's Lord. Jesus was BORN in the line of David, as promised, and, at His death, He has become the Lord of lords and King of kings! Actually, I believe that Jesus is asking how the Son is called LORD (as in YHVH) if you read the original in the OT. See here:
Psalm 110
A psalm of David.1The LORD saith unto my Lord, “Sit thou at my right hand, Until I make Thine enemies Thy footstool.”
2The LORD shall send the rod of Thy strength out of Zion: Rule Thou in the midst of Thine enemies.
3Thy people shall be willing in the day of Thy power,
in the beauty of holiness from the womb of the morning: Thou hast the dew of Thy youth.4The LORD hath sworn, and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek.
5The LORD at Thy right hand shall strike through kings in the day of His wrath.
6He shall judge among the heathen, He shall fill the places with the dead bodies; He shall wound the heads over many countries.
7He shall drink of the brook in the way: Therefore shall He lift up the head.
From the Companion Bible: http://www.levendwater.org/compani….dex.htm
The Companion Bible has restored where the Sopherim changed out the name YHVH with Adonay. We can know this because the Sopherim kept strict records of those changes they made in the margins of the manuscripts. These notes are called the Massorah.
Quote Again, it does NOT say..”in the beginning was the Son, and the Son was with God, and the Son was God.” Right? Or do you think that's what it says? In my Bible it says “word” NOT “Son” or “Jesus.” You are right that it doesn't say 'Son' in John 1:1 but it implies this as most Bible commentators can show you. Also, it would be helpful for you to read up on what Ignatius believed since he was a disciple of John who wrote John 1:1.
See here:
http://withalliamgod.wordpress.com/2012….107-a-dQuote Incorrect!! The “Lord their God” is YHVH, not Jesus. It does not say Jesus is the Lord their God. This is only your interpretation. Not just my interpretation, jb, but many.
Quote Again, this is only in YOUR version of the Bible. I already explained that this manuscript only came from one area. All other manuscripts from all over do not say “only begotten God.” I would question this verse if I were you! NOWHERE else in the Bible is this phrase used! Why do you think that is? Why was this version only found in one area while ALL the other areas' manuscripts do not say “only begotten God”? There are several versions that translate this verse with the word God and not Son.
see here:
http://biblehub.com/john/1-18.htmAlso, many early church fathers refer to the Father as the begetter or the unbegotten God and the Son as the only Begotten God.
Quote Do you really think this is because Jesus is God? You MUST believe in Jesus because GOD SAID SO!! It is NOT enough to just believe in GOD. Jesus is the sacrifice for OUR sins; therefore, GOD has EXALTED Jesus to such great honor as we MUST believe in HIM in order to receive the benefits of HIS sacrifice!! It really is that simple!! You believe that Jesus is another god who is not YHVH and so you believe in another god for your salvation but there is no salvation in any other god besides YHVH alone.
Quote This is actually another ambiguous verse. Some scholars say Thomas is “seeing” for the first time that Jesus IS the Messiah and therefore says..”My Lord” to Jesus and “My God” to YHVH. Now, I know you will reject that, but it is one explanation. Notice that Thomas does NOT say “my Lord and God”, instead he says “MY Lord and MY God”. This would seem to imply that he is talking about TWO different people. Also, some scholars say that Thomas might be referring back to when Jesus said if you've seen me, you've seen the Father. This, too, would explain why Thomas would say such a thing. He is FINALLY acknowledging Jesus as the Son of God that reflects GOD. You are in denial. You admit that Jesus is a theos but then you seem to take it back.
Quote Again, some problems, 1) there are many early manuscripts that say “church of the Lord.” 2) There are many versions that say “which he bought with the blood of his own Son.” 3) It would make since, seeing how God does not have blood, right? 4) Again, ambiguous verse that I would NOT make my argument with! You again are in denial. You admit that Jesus is a theos but can't see that this theos has shed His own blood and purchased the church which He is the head of.
Rev 5:9
And they sang a new song, saying: “You are worthy to take the scroll and to open its seals, because you were slain, and with your blood you purchased for God persons from every tribe and language and people and nation.Quote What DOES Paul say in Acts.. How about Acts 20:21
Testifying both to the Jews and also to the Greeks, repentance toward GOD and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ.SO, Paul taught to REPENT to GOD and BELIEVE IN Jesus.
God is…well…GOD and Jesus is…Lord!! That is pretty clear to me!!YHVH is BOTH God and Lord. Deut 10:17
Quote Your KILLING me!! Jesus IS Lord of all. He is just NOT God. You are making my point for me. Again, Jesus IS Lord of lords and King of kings! Notice that it does not say “GOD.” Notice that you did NOT continue the chapter that states in verse 38 that God anointed Jesus with the Holy Ghost or that God was WITH Him, NOT God WAS HIM but God was WITH him or that GOD ORDAINED Jesus or that God RAISED Jesus or that God MADE Jesus judge of the quick and the dead! No, you left ALL of that out. WHY? Again, YHVH is BOTH God of gods and Lord of lords. Jesus is the Lord of lords which you even admit to. But furthermore, Jesus is called God, you even admit that He is a theos.
Quote Again, this is a translation error. There are NO commas in Greek. The meaning, by many scholars, is stated to be God who is over all be blessed to the ages or God being over all be blessed to the ages. This, however, does not prove that Jesus is GOD. Furthermore, Paul declares in Romans 1 that “concerning his SON Jesus Christ our Lord.” This would mean that Jesus is NOT God, but rather God's SON. So we have to believe that Paul would not turn around and contradict himself in Chapter 9 by calling Jesus GOD. Right? Seriously, right? Th
is is again an example of your denial. So what if there are no commas in Greek? The meaning of many scholars is that Jesus is God over all and blessed to the ages. You admit that He is a theos but you just haven't accepted Him to be your theos. You try so hard to deny Him this place that He shares with the Father.Finally, for now, you said this:
Quote You go on to quote a bunch of verses calling Jesus by Lord. I have already showed that Jesus is Lord. I never denied that. I only reject the notion that Jesus is GOD. Can you admit that YHVH is Lord? Can you admit that you understand that Jesus is a theos?
I noticed that you did not address this verse among others:
2 Peter 1:1
Simon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who through the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ have received a faith as precious as ours:Quote (Lightenup @ June 18 2013,05:47) Hi jb2u, Quote IF the “word of God” is always Jesus, then how do you explain Luke 3:2 I didn't say that the 'word of God' always refers to the Son who became flesh but sometimes it does. In John 1:1, I and the vast majority of Bible students and commentators agree that the Word here is the Son of God. It is kinda like the word kyrios, it doesn't ALWAYS refer to YHVH but sometimes it does. The Spirit can give understanding to the scripture as to these matters.
So, we are going to start with an understanding that means one things when WE want it to and something else when it suits OUR purpose?Then, we are going to state that “The Spirit can give understanding to the scripture as to these matters.”
This is exactly HOW these false doctrines have grown. It is like “The Emperor's New Clothes.” I do not want to be said to “not have the Holy Spirit”, so, I will say that I see that God and Jesus are both YHVH. This tactic has worked on MANY!!
Quote (Lightenup @ June 18 2013,05:50) you ask: Quote
WHY would Jesus need the Holy Spirit of God if HE was God?
This just would not make sense!Keep in mind that He emptied Himself of whatever was necessary to become like man.
Phil 2:7
but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men.
Jesus did “empty himself.” BUT, He did not empty Himself of being GOD. He emptied Himself of the world.You see, I can be full of the world OR full of God, but I can't be both!! Jesus emptied Himself of His OWN will so that He may do the will of His Father…GOD!
Quote (Lightenup @ June 18 2013,05:54) Quote
Why would the “grace of God” be “UPON” Jesus (Luke 2:40) if Jesus IS God? Again, this makes NO SENSE if Jesus IS God!
Heb 2
For this reason he had to be made like them, fully human in every way, in order that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in service to God, and that he might make atonement for the sins of the people.
You see, this scripture only PROVES my point.1) Jesus was made in EVERY WAY like us. I don't know about you, but I am NOT half God and half man or full God and full man. I am, however, in EVERY WAY…fully man!!
2) Notice that this verse that YOU quoted states that Jesus is “in service TO God.” You can NOT be “in service to God” and BE God at the same time!!!
Quote (Lightenup @ June 18 2013,07:37) It doesn't matter what group of Jews wrote the Targums for my point to be made. My point is that there was a Jewish understanding among some or all Jews that the 'Word of the LORD' was worshiped and is identified with YHVH in some manner in their understanding.
It matters in EVERY way if the group that wrote the Targums were correct or not!! Especially if you are using it to support or influence your belief in who is God.If I am Jewish today and I write a book stating that satan is God's brother, does that mean that it is true just because I am Jewish? Does it mean that “Jews” believe this? Or, does it mean that there is a misguided or satan influenced Jew that wrote this book?
Like I said, it DOES matter who wrote the targums!!
Quote 1) Jesus was made in EVERY WAY like us. I don't know about you, but I am NOT half God and half man or full God and full man. I am, however, in EVERY WAY…fully man!! Did dirt become man in every way? Please answer this, jb.
Quote (Lightenup @ June 18 2013,07:37) The Creator is the Father through the Son. 1 Cor 8:6 clarifies this. Also, regarding Jesus as being the servant, They actually serve each other. The Father serves the Son as a Father would and the Son serves the Father as a Son would. If you are a father, you know that you definitely serve your kids…you provide for them, you clothe and feed them, you coach them, etc. They in turn then serve you by helping with chores, bringing you your drink, finding the remote, assisting you when you are old and senile, etc. The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob is YHVH. YHVH is both the God of gods AND the Lord of lords. Jesus is the Lord of lords.
Quote This one I already explained to you. God has MADE Jesus our Lord; therefore, Jesus is the son of David and David's Lord. Jesus was BORN in the line of David, as promised, and, at His death, He has become the Lord of lords and King of kings! Actually, I believe that Jesus is asking how the Son is called LORD (as in YHVH) if you read the original in the OT. See here:
First, 1 Cor 8:6 only proves that the Bible that you use was influenced by trinitarians!! The word used for “through” in Greek is actually “di.” Which, literally means “on account of” or “for the sake of” or “because of.” This makes sense. It is only because of Jesus that God even bothered to create the world. God saw that Jesus would be the “faithful servant” that would save the world. And thus, God went on to create the world…BECAUSE OF the future coming of our Messiah, Jesus. “Di” can also mean “through”; however, we already know that GOD created the world BY HIMSELF, ALONE!! So, when a trinitarian translates this verse and sees “di”, he will translate it as “through” because he believes that Jesus created the world. On the other hand, when a non-trinitarian translates this verse, he also knows that God said that he created the world by Himself alone. And so, he will translate this verse with the meaning of “because of.”Second, I am NOT a servant of my children. I do PROVIDE for my children, as does God to us. Please, do NOT say that God is our servant!! Please, just don't say that! HE is our PROVIDER. WE our His servants, even our Lord Jesus.
As for Psalms 110
You are confusing the Hebrew. There is Adoni and Adonai. Verse 5 does NOT call Jesus by YHVH or Adonai. It calls Him Adoni. The use of the “lord” is a “royal” title granted to those given authority by God, not meaning that they our God themselves. There are several instances in the Bible where men, including Jesus, are called Adoni, but NEVER is anyone, including Jesus, given the title Adonai except for GOD.For instance, In Genesis 44:7
Joseph is called Adoni (lord). Is he God? No, of course not! We can not pick and choose who we want to call God. God is God and Jesus is our Lord. Our Lord that is appointed BY GOD, just like David was Israel's lord appointed by God. Just like all of the judges were lords appointed BY GOD. There is a difference between a royal title and a divine title.I pray all of this helps you.
Quote (Lightenup @ June 18 2013,07:40) Finally, for now, you said this: Quote You go on to quote a bunch of verses calling Jesus by Lord. I have already showed that Jesus is Lord. I never denied that. I only reject the notion that Jesus is GOD. Can you admit that YHVH is Lord? Can you admit that you understand that Jesus is a theos?
I noticed that you did not address this verse among others:
2 Peter 1:1
Simon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who through the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ have received a faith as precious as ours:
Again, theos is appointed by GOD. If God did not make Jesus theos then He would not be so. Do not confuse “theos” with being the Almighty God.2 Peter 1:1 does NOT claim that Jesus is God. If you notice, ALL the epistles start off with declaring God and Jesus. Read them.
Peter is doing the same here. What does he say in the very next verse?
Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord.Would you agree that the second verse makes it clear that Peter is speaking of two separate beings?
How about in verse 17 when, in speaking about Jesus said,
“For he received FROM God the Father honor and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.”Do you see two separate beings there, one God and one Jesus?
Quote (Lightenup @ June 19 2013,03:36) Quote 1) Jesus was made in EVERY WAY like us. I don't know about you, but I am NOT half God and half man or full God and full man. I am, however, in EVERY WAY…fully man!! Did dirt become man in every way? Please answer this, jb.
What separates us from Adam and Jesus is that they were both created sinless without an Earthly father!It is like this program that I saw the other day. I watch this show “Wretched.” Anyway, in it, there was this Preacher that said an abortion doctor came to his church looking for help. The preacher wanted to help him come to know Christ. So, the preacher gave a Bible to this abortionist and told him to go and read John (I wonder why John *Cough, cough). He told him to read John and come back when you know who Jesus is.
The following Sunday, this abortion doctor comes back to the church and tells the preacher that he knows who Jesus is. The preacher asks, “who is he.” The doctor states, “He is God. Jesus is God.” The preacher asks him how he came to this conclusion. The doctor states, as so many do today, that “there is no way that Jesus could have said the things that he said or do the things that he done and not be God.”
To which, the preacher commended him. Now, if I were the preacher, I would have pointed out that God said that he put His words into Jesus' mouth or that Jesus stated that he said the words that God commanded Him to say or that the Bible states repeatedly that Jesus spoke the words of God or that Jesus stated that His works were done by God through Him or that the Bible makes it clear that God was working through Jesus or that when Jesus did miracles people worshiped God not Jesus or that the disciples, too, performed miracles or that the prophets, too, spoke the words of God.
But, of course, I do not believe that Jesus is God, and I can read where the Bible shows me that Jesus is not God.
And what about the Gospel of John?
Why did John say that these things were written?
John 20:31
But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.Why didn't John say, “that ye might believe that Jesus is God? Isn't that the belief that you and others have about John's Gospel, that John is proclaiming Jesus to be God? Here is John's opportunity to say as such; and yet, he only states that it is so you may believe that Jesus is the Son of God (not God the Son or God).
Quote (jb2u @ June 18 2013,10:08) Quote (Lightenup @ June 18 2013,05:54) Quote
Why would the “grace of God” be “UPON” Jesus (Luke 2:40) if Jesus IS God? Again, this makes NO SENSE if Jesus IS God!
Heb 2
For this reason he had to be made like them, fully human in every way, in order that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in service to God, and that he might make atonement for the sins of the people.
You see, this scripture only PROVES my point.1) Jesus was made in EVERY WAY like us. I don't know about you, but I am NOT half God and half man or full God and full man. I am, however, in EVERY WAY…fully man!!
2) Notice that this verse that YOU quoted states that Jesus is “in service TO God.” You can NOT be “in service to God” and BE God at the same time!!!
jb,
you said:Quote Jesus was made in EVERY WAY like us. I don't know about you, but I am NOT half God and half man or full God and full man. I am, however, in EVERY WAY…fully man!! Think about that dirt for a second. That dirt was fully dirt one second then fully man the next, then when the body dies and decays it goes back to fully dirt.
If that can happen, why can't God, the Son become man also? Who are you to say this can't happen?
Can the Prince of England, one with royal blood, choose to empty himself of wealth and all that goes along with the material privileges of being royalty and move to a third world country and live in utter poverty where he is not identified and where he does not exercize his privileges of his true identity? He could be considered 100% prince yet 100% pauper.
Obviously the phrase about Jesus becoming a man in every way is a hyperbole…or were you and every man born of a virgin? Were you older than an ancestor that had died hundreds of years before you were born? Are you also a man from heaven? If not, then Jesus was not just like any other man in every way. He was a man in every way that was necessary to fulfill His purpose but He was not a normal man.
Quote You can NOT be “in service to God” and BE God at the same time!!! Well, you can be in service to God the Father and be God the Son at the same time. No problem there.
Quote (jb2u @ June 18 2013,10:04) Quote (Lightenup @ June 18 2013,05:50) you ask: Quote
WHY would Jesus need the Holy Spirit of God if HE was God?
This just would not make sense!Keep in mind that He emptied Himself of whatever was necessary to become like man.
Phil 2:7
but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men.
Jesus did “empty himself.” BUT, He did not empty Himself of being GOD. He emptied Himself of the world.You see, I can be full of the world OR full of God, but I can't be both!! Jesus emptied Himself of His OWN will so that He may do the will of His Father…GOD!
I don't think you will find those words in that passage about Jesus emptying Himself. You are reading through your bias, this is the very same thing you accuse the trinitarians of doing.You are right that Jesus didn't empty Himself of being God, the Son. He couldn't do that. Sorta like the prince can't empty himself of royal blood to become a pauper.
jb,
you said:Quote As for Psalms 110
You are confusing the Hebrew. There is Adoni and Adonai. Verse 5 does NOT call Jesus by YHVH or Adonai. It calls Him Adoni. The use of the “lord” is a “royal” title granted to those given authority by God, not meaning that they our God themselves. There are several instances in the Bible where men, including Jesus, are called Adoni, but NEVER is anyone, including Jesus, given the title Adonai except for GOD.I suggest that you get informed about the Massorah. Jesus is called YHVH in v. 5 of Psalms 110. The Sopherim replaced YHVH with Adonay in many places but they kept records of the change in the margins.
Here, read this:
http://www.therain.org/appendixes/app30.htmlQuote (Lightenup @ June 19 2013,14:58) Think about that dirt for a second. That dirt was fully dirt one second then fully man the next, then when the body dies and decays it goes back to fully dirt. If that can happen, why can't God, the Son become man also? Who are you to say this can't happen?
Can the Prince of England, one with royal blood, choose to empty himself of wealth and all that goes along with the material privileges of being royalty and move to a third world country and live in utter poverty where he is not identified and where he does not exorcize his privileges of his true identity? He could be considered 100% prince yet 100% pauper.
Obviously the phrase about Jesus becoming a man in every way is a hyperbole…or were you and every man born of a virgin? Were you older than an ancestor that had died hundreds of years before you were born? Are you also a man from heaven? If not, then Jesus was not just like any other man in every way. He was a man in every way that was way necessary to fulfill His purpose but He was not a normal man.
Quote You can NOT be “in service to God” and BE God at the same time!!! Well, you can be in service to God the Father and be God the Son at the same time. No problem there.
I have NO doubt that God COULD be God and become something/someone else if that is what He chooses to do.That being said, we are NOT talking about what God “COULD” do; we are talking about what the Bible states ACTUALLY happened!
Do you see the difference?
You act as if I am limiting God just because I take scripture for what it actually says. For instance, scripture NEVER says, “God the Son,” but, you insist on using such UNbiblical language because that is what YOU believe! I believe that IF Jesus is God, He would have said He was; however, He NEVER says that He is God!
As for God the Son being able to be in service to God the Father..
Not if you believe that they are both YHVH. If they are both YHVH then they are the same being/person/God. Otherwise, you have to admit to 2 YHVHs, which is AGAINST exactly what the word of GOD says!!Quote (Lightenup @ June 19 2013,15:04) I don't think you will find those words in that passage about Jesus emptying Himself. You are reading through your bias, this is the very same thing you accuse the trinitarians of doing. You are right that Jesus didn't empty Himself of being God, the Son. He couldn't do that. Sorta like the prince can't empty himself of royal blood to become a pauper.
You are right. Those words are not there, and I never claimed that they are. What I am doing is explaining those verses IN LIGHT OF other scripture. I am not going based on “my bias.” I am going based on what OTHER VERSES IN THE BIBLE has to say about who Jesus is and is not! That is NOT bias. That is being able to read and understand the word of God.I will put it to you like this..
We KNOW and AGREE (I think) that the following is stated in scripture..
1) YHVH is one.
2) Jesus states that the one true God is His Father.
3) Jesus states that the day will come when the TRUE worshipers will worship THE FATHER.
4) Jesus denied being equal with God.
5) Scripture clearly shows a separation between Jesus and God. (as in repeatedly we have verses that say “God and Jesus”, which means they are separate and not both God. IF it said “the Father and Jesus” then you can claim that they both “could be” God; however, that is not what scripture actually says. It ACTUALLY says..God and Jesus)
6) Jesus states that He spoke HIS FATHER's words and did HIS FATHER's will. And, He identifies His Father as..GOD!
7) God and Jesus have a “unity.”NOW..
I see 1-6 from above and say that #7 must mean a unity of purpose or “mind.” That keeps the first 6 as still being Biblical and cohesive.You, on the other hand, see #7 and try to redefine what 1-6 means. The problem is, this means that you have to then ADD or TAKE AWAY FROM what the Bible says.
YHVH is one becomes “well He actually means 2 in 1”
You have to just plain out IGNORE that Jesus said that the one true God is His Father, or that the true worshipers will worship the Father, or that He was not equal to God, or that He stated that He spoke His Father's words, or did His Father's will, or that He even identifies His Father as God, and that He identifies Himself as..the SON of God, NOT God the Son or God!
You have to IGNORE that over and over book after book the Bible clearly shows that God and Jesus are separated as two different beings. You have to IGNORE that it NEVER says, “greetings from GOD the Father and GOD the Son.” You have to IGNORE that if the Father is YHVH and Jesus is YHVH then that is 2 YHVHs.
You HAVE to think that Jesus was not being honest when He said the things that He said.
And WHY would God not just state that simple fact that He is 2 in 1? Jesus came to DECLARE God. So, why would He not say, “I am God, too”? He admitted that He was the Son of God. Can you be the “Son of” and “the Father”? Again, keep in mind that you can ONLY believe in ONE GOD; otherwise, your salvation is at stake, so says GOD!! Now, this means that the Son and the Father HAVE to be both the SAME GOD. IF NOT, then you have just created and worshiped TWO GODS!!
I am PLEADING with you to rethink what you believe!! I truly care about you!!
FIVE QUESTIONS, PLEASE ANSWER.
You state that the Prince was 100% prince and 100% pauper. You state that “Jesus didn't empty Himself of being God, the Son.”
If you insist on believing that Jesus was God, even while on Earth, then
1) WHY did He need God to do miracles or speak His words?
2) WHY couldn't He just use His own “God powers” to do such things or know such things?
3) Knowing that “GOD” can not die, at what point did Jesus' “God side” leave Him?
4) WHO resurrected Jesus?
5) HOW can Jesus and the Father be ONE when Jesus states that He and His Father are TWO witnesses?
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