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Quote (Lightenup @ May 17 2013,16:46) Quote The thing is Jesus is not YHVH. Nowhere in the whole Bible does it state that!! Wrong on this account also…I have run out of battery and need sleep anyways. More to come on this…
You mean you are actually going to give me scripture where Jesus is called YHVH.Yes:
Jeremiah 23
5Behold, the days come, saith Jehovah, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and he shall reign as king and deal wisely, and shall execute justice and righteousness in the land.6In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely; and this is his name whereby he shall be called: Jehovah our righteousness.
Quote (Lightenup @ May 18 2013,07:27) Yes:
Jeremiah 23
5Behold, the days come, saith Jehovah, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and he shall reign as king and deal wisely, and shall execute justice and righteousness in the land.6In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely; and this is his name whereby he shall be called: Jehovah our righteousness.
You either are unaware of the scripture or are trying to deceive me. Which is it??By your suggestion, is Jeremiah YHVH, too? For Jeremiah says…
(JER 15:16)
Thy words were found, and I did eat them; and thy word was unto me the joy and rejoicing of mine heart: for I am called by thy name, O LORD GOD of hosts.Is Jerusalem YHVH??
(JER 33:16)
In those days shall Judah be saved, and Jerusalem shall dwell safely: and this is the name wherewith she shall be called, The LORD our righteousness.(JER 25:29)
For, lo, I begin to bring evil on the city which is called by my name…(Daniel 9:18)
O my God, incline thine ear, and hear; open thine eyes, and behold our desolations, and the city which is called by thy name…(Ezekiel 48:35)
It was round about eighteen thousand measures: and the name of the city from that day shall be, The LORD is there.Is the temple YHVH???
(JER 7:10)
And come and stand before me in this house, which is called by my name…Are the Jews YHVH??
(JER 14:9)
Why shouldest thou be as a man astonished, as a mighty man that cannot save? yet thou, O LORD, art in the midst of us, and we are called by thy name..How about the Gentiles? Are they YHVH as called in Amos?
(Amos 9:12)
…and of all the heathen (Gentiles), which are called by my name, saith the LORD that doeth this.Again, we know that, in scripture, GOD's name is placed on people and THINGS (as in the temple and Jerusalem) that represent Him or where His presence is!!! I truly hope that this is just an oversight on your part. I believe that you were not trying to deceive me. As I said, I believe that you are a good person. I believe that you want to know the truth.
But, let not this one verse that APPEARS at first without consideration of other scripture to call Jesus YHVH. Instead, let us put all scripture together. Scripture should NEVER contradict itself. Right?? And so, IF something SEEMS to contradict itself, as in….
when Jesus says that His Father is the one and only true God, and then we have a verse that says Jesus will be called YHVH our righteousness…We must seek the scripture as a whole to find out which is correct!!! Right???
OK…we have record after record where Jesus NEVER calls Himself God. We have record after record where his followers do not call Him God. We have record after record where Jesus says that the one God is His Father. We have record after record where Jesus and GOD clearly are two separate beings…one as God and one as Lord. One as the Almighty and one as the APPOINTED Savior, appointed by GOD!! One IS GOD and one is sent BY GOD. One IS GOD and the other is exalted BY GOD!!!
And then, we have record after record where GOD has GIVEN His name to the temple, Jeremiah, Jesus, Jerusalem, the Jews, and even the Gentiles.
In light of all of this Biblical scripture, are we still going to isolate this one verse and say, “see Jesus is YHVH,” or are we going to admit our misrepresentation of the scripture???
The choice is yours!! It has been revealed to you now!! You can still believe that Jesus is YHVH, but I have clearly shown that just because God has given Jesus His name in that verse does NOT make Jesus YHVH. Jesus is only the agent OF YHVH. If you continue to believe that that verse proves Jesus is YHVH, then you are forced to believe that the temple, Jerusalem, the Jews, Gentiles, and even Jeremiah himself are all YHVH!!!
Quote (jb2u @ May 17 2013,11:36) Quote (Lightenup @ May 17 2013,16:44) Quote And out of this stump, a root is produced which is Jesus. This root will flourish; In grade school you probably saw a picture of a plant with roots that are underground and from the roots the stem sprouts and from the stem, then we have the branches and from the branches we get fruit. We don't get more roots from out of the stem. There is a reason that many believe that Jesus was the source of Jesse. They paid attention in grade school. The mystery is that Jesus is the root of the plant AND also the branch coming from the stem and bears the fruit. He is two different parts. He came before Jesse as his source and came after Jesse as his descendant.
What was the nature of the Son before He became flesh or do you not believe that the Son existed before He became flesh?
I can look out my window and see a tree in my front yard.That tree grew and made stems that produced leaves and fruit that drop. Now, around this tree, there are more trees coming forth. These new trees have there own roots, but one can easily say that the roots came from the first tree because that first tree was the source of the seeds that started that root. The problem is a misunderstanding of the words used in that scripture!! Not in my lack of understanding of dendrology.
Again, read Isaiah again. It is clear that the tree is not bearing fruit. Out of this tree comes forth a new root that is Jesus.
Also, God promised that the Messiah would come OUT of the Davidic line, not that He would be the source of the Davidic line.
David calls this one that comes as his descendant “Lord.” Since David calls Him Lord, how is it that He is his son?The pharisees were silenced by this question.
Revelations is a book to give further 'revelation' of Jesus. Jesus reveals in the last chapter that He is the root and offspring of David.
Quote You either are unaware of the scripture or are trying to deceive me. Which is it?? I am aware of the scriptures; I am not trying to deceive you.
Jesus is given the name 'Jehovah our Righteousness' and Jerusalem, which is symbolic, is identified in Him but not as Him.
jb, please answer this:
Who does the NT say is our righteousness? The Father or the Son?Quote (Lightenup @ May 19 2013,16:46) David calls this one that comes as his descendant “Lord.” Since David calls Him Lord, how is it that He is his son? The pharisees were silenced by this question.
Revelations is a book to give further 'revelation' of Jesus. Jesus reveals in the last chapter that He is the root and offspring of David.
David knew that his descendant would be made Lord of Lords and King of kings.Let's say that you have a son (I'm not sure if you do), God reveals to you that your son will be the Messiah, the Lord of lords. Will you NOT refer to your son as Lord??
Let me make this clear, we are ALL sons of God!! My kids are God's. He has given me the honor to raise and teach them about God, Jesus, and the coming Kingdom!! On Earth, my kids belong to me, but ultimately, now and for eternity, they BELONG to Him!! Is that clear??
Jesus IS the beginning. For, without Jesus, we would not have had a beginning. Jesus is the end. For, He finished the act of the sacrifice so that we may all have eternal life.
Do you see? GOD knew before He ever spoke His creation into existence that man would fall. GOD would not have even created the world or man if He would not have already known that there would be a Messiah to atone for the sin of man. It is because of this foreknown Messiah that He went ahead and created the world. And so, we have the Messiah to thank for His sacrifice. For because of His sacrifice, we are and will be forever! And so, He IS the beginning and the end!!
Quote (Lightenup @ May 19 2013,16:51) Quote You either are unaware of the scripture or are trying to deceive me. Which is it?? I am aware of the scriptures; I am not trying to deceive you.
Jesus is given the name 'Jehovah our Righteousness' and Jerusalem, which is symbolic, is identified in Him but not as Him.
jb, please answer this:
Who does the NT say is our righteousness? The Father or the Son?
First, reread JER 33:16. It does not say Jerusalem will be identified “in Him” as you say. It clearly says that Jerusalem will be called Jehovah our righteousness. The same exact wording used for the Messiah.Second, to answer your question…Jesus is called “the righteous” or as defined by the Greek word used “dikaion” which means “just, righteous, impartial” or properly translated “just in the eye's of God” or “adhearing to God's standard.” Now, God is also called righteous in the OT and the NT. So the answer to your question is both. But, the verse correctly states Jesus, the righteous, NOT “our righteousness.”
We must first understand that Jesus is the way, the truth, the light, and righteousness. But, ask yourself….WHOSE way, WHOSE truth, WHOSE light, and WHOSE righteousness is He??? I submit that Jesus is…God's truth, God's way, God's light, and God's righteousness. DO YOU AGREE???
Let's get to some scripture (and we can start in the OT)….
Psalm 72:1
Give the king thy judgments, O God, and thy righteousness unto the king's son.
Psalm 72:2
He shall judge thy people with righteousness, and thy poor with judgment.
Now we know that this is David speaking to God about his son Solomon. But, this is also about Christ. Clearly many of these things did not happen…yet. Knowing that this Psalm is inspired by GOD and not David, we are led to believe that God will give His Son His judgments and righteousness. Jesus will judge with the righteousness given to Him BY God!!Psalm 89:16
16 In thy name shall they rejoice all the day: and in thy righteousness shall they be exalted.
Psalm 96:13
13 Before the Lord: for he cometh, for he cometh to judge the earth: he shall judge the world with righteousness, and the people with his truth.
Proverbs 10:2
2 Treasures of wickedness profit nothing: but righteousness delivereth from death.
Proverbs 11:4
4 Riches profit not in the day of wrath: but righteousness delivereth from death.
Proverbs 12:28
28 In the way of righteousness is life: and in the pathway thereof there is no death.
Proverbs 15:9
9 The way of the wicked is an abomination unto the Lord: but he loveth him that followeth after righteousness.
All of the above talk of God's righteousness. It shows that God is righteous, loves righteousness, and will use His righteousness through the righteous one, Jesus, to judge the world. But, it is still all about GOD's righteousness.Isaiah 45:13
13 I have raised him up in righteousness, and I will direct all his ways: he shall build my city, and he shall let go my captives, not for price nor reward, saith the Lord of hosts.
Pay attention..this seems to be about Cyrus, and in some ways is, BUT it is also about Jesus!! Jesus will rebuild God's city. Cyrus did NOT!! And so, we know this also is speaking of the coming Messiah!!! Notice that God will raise Jesus up “in righteousness…He will direct all His ways.” I believe that Jesus said that all that He said and did was told/commanded by God. And Jesus did this, not for a price or reward, but only to do God's will…and because of this God rewarding Him anyway.How about the NT…
Acts 17:31
31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.
So, we see God will judge the world, in HIS righteousness THROUGH the “man He hath ordained.” I believe that the “man He hath ordained” is Jesus. What say you?? If yes, then it is still God's righteousness, but given through Jesus!! Think about it.Romans 3:22
22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
So God's righteousness is in Jesus. And because of this, Jesus has atoned for our sins because of His righteousness. And so, Jesus is just and our justifier to God!! It really is that simple.1 Corinthians 1:30
30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:
So, this is to the early church!! It tells us that because of God, Jesus is MADE wisdom, righteousness, sanctification, and redemption. This is important to understand!!!Continuing with the early church…
2 Corinthians 5:21
21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.
So, it is GOD's righteousness through Jesus that we will be made righteous ourselves. Notice: STILL God's righteousness though!!
1 John 2:29
29 If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him.
1 John 3:10
10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.
Don't be confused here. This is saying that if you know that Jesus is righteous by God, you know that every one that does righteousness is born of GOD (NEVER is anyone “born of Christ”). It is telling us not to fear the Messiah's second coming because God's appointed has His rigtheousness; and because of this, we are not to fear because if we too practice righteousness then we are sons of God, too.Revelation 19:11
11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
I submit that it is “in GOD's righteousness” that Jesus will judge and make war. See the OT for proof of this.Romans 5:19
19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
Matthew 25:46
46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
So not just God and Jesus, but we, too, shall be righteous.
John 17:25
25 O righteous Father, the world hath not known thee: but I have known thee, and these have known that thou hast sent me.
Here, God IS identified by Jesus as righteous.Revelation 16:5
And I heard the angel of the waters say, Thou art righteous, O Lord, which art, and wast, and shalt be, because thou hast judged thus.
Revelation 16:7
And I heard another out of the altar say, Even so, Lord God Almighty, true and rig
hteous are thy judgments.
And so again, in revelations, God is called righteous. Remember this is GOD's wrath, not the Messiah's.I know that this was a lot to read. I pray that you have read every word. We MUST understand that Jesus represented God. He was NOT God, but His representative on Earth!! Jesus made that clear. Jesus died for our sins so that we may have eternal life!! For that reason God EXALTED Him higher than all, the angels even!! He IS the righteousness Of God. He is not GOD, but embodies God's righteousness. That comes from scripture, not man's interpretation of scripture as I have pointed out. Again, I do not think you would ever TRY to deceive me. I want you to understand that what you believe MIGHT not be found in the scripture. I want you to have every bit of the truth. If I do not speak of things in Scripture, then ignore me or try to lead me to the truth. But, if I speak those thing found in Scripture, give God time to speak to you. Pray upon it. Do not just take my word. Seek God to show you if I am right or wrong. I fear God. I would NEVER use His words to deceive or lead anyone into a false belief!! That being said, I believe that God has answered my prayers. He has revealed Himself to me, and I am to share with others. Again, I do not want you to take anything that I say as truth. Pray to God and study upon God's word to see if what I say is true.
Quote (Lightenup @ May 17 2013,00:44) Quote And out of this stump, a root is produced which is Jesus. This root will flourish; In grade school you probably saw a picture of a plant with roots that are underground and from the roots the stem sprouts and from the stem, then we have the branches and from the branches we get fruit. We don't get more roots from out of the stem. There is a reason that many believe that Jesus was the source of Jesse. They paid attention in grade school. The mystery is that Jesus is the root of the plant AND also the branch coming from the stem and bears the fruit. He is two different parts. He came before Jesse as his source and came after Jesse as his descendant.
What was the nature of the Son before He became flesh or do you not believe that the Son existed before He became flesh?
jb,
Please answer this:Quote What was the nature of the Son before He became flesh or do you not believe that the Son existed before He became flesh? Quote (Lightenup @ May 20 2013,17:54) jb,
Please answer this:Quote What was the nature of the Son before He became flesh or do you not believe that the Son existed before He became flesh?
I was hoping to first further discuss that GOD and Jesus are both not GOD; however, I will let the conversation go where you like.I'll start by saying that I've always held the belief that Jesus existed as the “first created” being. And thus, that made Him the Son of God. However, as I really got into my studies on the trinity, as I wanted to believe in the trinity, I found further proof that the trinity was false!! But, I came to a second realization from God. The same men that came up with the “trinity” are the same men that claimed that Jesus “preexisted”!!!
Now for those here that are my non-trinitarian brothers and sisters, I encourage you to pay close attention to what I have to say!! Once I started studying upon whether or not Jesus preexisted, and prayed intensely upon it, I started to see that scripture does not say that Jesus preexisted. It actually states the opposite!!
Now, the first person to come up with the idea of preexistence was Justin Martyr. I know that you believe that Jesus claimed it Himself, but we will get into the true scripture and context about that!!! Now, back to Justin Martyr, He lived from 100-160 AD. He is considered an “early church father.” He was a philosopher raised by pagan parents. What converted him to Christianity? Was it God? NO. Was it Jesus? NO…. It was the prophets that he fell in love with!!! Here is a quote by Justin…
“A fire was suddenly kindled in my soul. I fell in love with the prophets and these men who had loved Christ; I reflected on all their words and found that this philosophy alone was true and profitable. That is how and why I became a philosopher. And I wish that everyone felt the same way that I do.”
Now what did this man that believed in a preexistent Jesus believe about his own “theory”? Well let's take a sample from one of his own works, The Dialogue with Trypho…
“I know that the statement does appear to be paradoxical, especially to those of your race, who are ever unwilling to understand or to perform the[requirements] of God, but[ready to perform] those of your teachers, as God Himself declares. Now assuredly, Trypho,” I continued,”[the proof] that this man is the Christ of God does not fail, though I be unable to prove that He existed formerly as Son of the Maker of all things, being God, and was born a man by the Virgin. But since I have certainly proved that this man is the Christ of God, whoever He be, even if I do not prove that He pre-existed, and submitted to be born a man of like passions with us, having a body, according to the Father's will; in this last matter alone is it just to say that I have erred, and not to deny that He is the Christ, though it should appear that He was born man of men, and[nothing more] is proved[than this], that He has become Christ by election. For there are some, my friends,” I said, “of our race, who admit that He is Christ, while holding Him to be man of men; with whom I do not agree, nor would I, even though most of those who have[now] the same opinions as myself should say so; since we were enjoined by Christ Himself to put no faith in human doctrines, but in those proclaimed by the blessed prophets and taught by Himself.”
This is NOT to say that other such “believers” of the trinity were not already spouting about a preexistent Jesus, as surely they were, but this is the earliest writing we have. However, notice that Martyr did NOT quote other “believers” works that “prove” a preexistent Jesus. He did not even quote scripture!! He declared that he could NOT prove that Jesus preexisted. He stated that he could only prove that Jesus was the Christ!!
Now, the Bible has a lot to say about this and we WILL get into what scripture ACTUALLY has to say about it!!!
We will START with a very important verse….
2 Corinthians 11:3-4
3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.
4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.So, God knew that some would come and preach a different Christ than what the Apostles preached!! And, if you truly look at the Christ that the Apostles taught about in the Bible, you will find a Christ that….was born a MAN, was NOT God Himself, and did NOT preexist!! I will be backing up all of this with what the Bible actually says!!
Now, what does the Holy Word of God have to say about Jesus? First, let's keep in mind that the Bible can NOT contradict itself; and so, where there is an apparent contradiction, we must rectify it. So, let's go….
We can start in Genesis…
Genesis 3:15
And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.So, it will be HER SEED that puts an end to satan!!
Let's go on to Deuteronomy…
Deuteronomy 18:18
I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.Notice that God will RAISE UP a Prophet from AMONG their brethren, just like them. God will PUT HIS WORDS into his mouth, as did He Christ!!!
Also, Peter (Acts 3:23) and Stephen (Acts 7:37) use this same verse to prove that Jesus was the Christ!!!
Let's go to Acts 2:22-36
This tells us that Jesus was a MAN that was APPROVED by God. Delivered by determined council and FOREKNOWLEDGE of God. And that God MADE Jesus Lord and Savior.So from this we see that Jesus was a MAN. And that God APPROVED of Him. God foreknew Jesus…not that Jesus already existed!!!
1 Peter 1:19-21
19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,
21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.So, Jesus was FOREORDAINED before the foundation of the world. Not CREATED before the foundation of the world!! He was only MANIFESTED in the last days to them!! Jesus only had glory AFTER He was raised from the dead!!
1 Peter 2:4-6
4 To whom coming, as unto a living stone, disallowed indeed of men, but chosen of God, and precious,
5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.
6 Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.Again, we find Jesus was CHOSEN by God!!
Let's go to Hebrews..
Hebrews 3:1-3
1 Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus;
2 Who was faithful to him that appointed him, as also Moses was faithful in all his house.
3 For this man was counted worthy of more glory than Moses, inasmuch as he who hath builded the house hath more honour than the house.So, here, Jesus is called an Apostel and a High Priest (a man). He was said to be FAITHFUL to the ONE that APPOINTED Him. And, this MAN was counted worthy of more glory than Moses!! All of which, I agree!!!
Let's go on to why the angel, Gabriel, said that Jesus would be called the Son of God!!
Luke 1:35
And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.The Greek word “therefore” is “dio” meaning “on which account.” Meaning that BECAUSE of the power of God causing a virgin to conceive, this child will be called the Son of God!!
Adam was also called the Son of God. Adam was also a non-preexistent man!! Jesus had no Earthly father, just like Adam!!
I have a lot more scripture to go through, but keep this in mind…The apostles NEVER taught a preexistent Christ, a foreknown, foreordained Christ..YES, but NEVER a preexistent Jesus. Also, many many many times the disciples referred to Christ as a man, this man!! He was indeed very much a MAN, Chosen by God, as the BIBLE says so!! Yes, He was perfect. Yes, He stayed true to God and His word. Yes, He was the very wisdom of God, not the wisdom that was in the beginning, but the wisdom that became flesh!! There is a difference. One of which that goes along with the Bible and one that contradicts the Bible. Pray about it!!
jb2u,
Before you go any further, I believe this passage from Paul rebukes what you are teaching:Clearly Paul is debunking your teaching about Jesus being merely a human being. He is also speaking very sternly about those that teach a different gospel, see the words in red:
1Paul, an apostle—sent not from men nor by a man, but by Jesus Christ and God the Father, who raised him from the dead— 2and all the brothers and sisters with me,
To the churches in Galatia:
3Grace and peace to you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ, 4who gave himself for our sins to rescue us from the present evil age, according to the will of our God and Father, 5to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.
No Other Gospel
6I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you to live in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel— 7which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let them be under God’s curse! 9As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let them be under God’s curse!
10Am I now trying to win the approval of human beings, or of God? Or am I trying to please people? If I were still trying to please people, I would not be a servant of Christ.
Paul Called by God
11I want you to know, brothers and sisters, that the gospel I preached is not of human origin. 12I did not receive it from any man, nor was I taught it; rather, I received it by revelation from Jesus Christ.
Quote (Lightenup @ May 23 2013,09:01) jb2u,
Before you go any further, I believe this passage from Paul rebukes what you are teaching:Clearly Paul is debunking your teaching about Jesus being merely a human being. He is also speaking very sternly about those that teach a different gospel, see the words in red:
1Paul, an apostle—sent not from men nor by a man, but by Jesus Christ and God the Father, who raised him from the dead— 2and all the brothers and sisters with me,
To the churches in Galatia:
3Grace and peace to you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ, 4who gave himself for our sins to rescue us from the present evil age, according to the will of our God and Father, 5to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.
No Other Gospel
6I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you to live in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel— 7which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let them be under God’s curse! 9As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let them be under God’s curse!
10Am I now trying to win the approval of human beings, or of God? Or am I trying to please people? If I were still trying to please people, I would not be a servant of Christ.
Paul Called by God
11I want you to know, brothers and sisters, that the gospel I preached is not of human origin. 12I did not receive it from any man, nor was I taught it; rather, I received it by revelation from Jesus Christ.
No it does not.Paul was made an apostle by whom??? It was the glorified, exalted Christ, not just a mere man. He was not an apostle while Christ walked on Earth, this is important!! Even then 5 times, Paul states it was by the will of GOD that he was made an apostle. FIVE times he states that he is an apostle OF Jesus Christ BY the WILL of God.
Anyway, the point is at Paul's teaching Jesus was NOT man, but exalted to the second highest position, over the angels even!!!
That being said, it is believed that Paul wrote Hebrews (I'm not sure this is the case, but..)
As I stated, Hebrews 3:1-3
States that Jesus is an apostle and High Priest, He was approved by God, and “this MAN was counted worthy of more glory than Moses.”Now I don't know if Paul wrote that or not, but I DO know that it is the inspired word of GOD!!!
If any of the apostles would have believed that the Christ was God, they would never refer to Him as “this man” who was counted worthy of more glory than Moses”, nor would they call Him an Apostle or High Priest. Would you not agree???
In Romans 1:4-5
Paul states that…
3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;
4 And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:So, Paul declares that BY FLESH Jesus is made from the seed of David (Mary's egg (seed)), and He was DECLARED the Son of God by the resurrection from the dead!!! This is the same thing that I personally believe.
Paul further states…
Philippians 2:8-9
8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:So, Paul states that Jesus is a man that was obedient to GOD even to His death….and FOR THIS REASON (the Greek meaning for “wherefore”) God exalted Him above every name. Again, this is scriptural, and I believe every word!!!
What did the apostle Paul write to Timothy. This letter to Timothy is to tell him to guard against false doctrine, protect public worship, and develop mature leadership. So now, what did he tell Timothy…
1 Timothy 2:5
For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;So, in writing to Timothy about guarding against false doctrine, he calls Jesus, “the MAN Christ Jesus.”
Again, I know that Jesus was exalted to deity. That much is clear in scripture. That being said, scripture is just as clear that prior to His exaltation, He was a man. He was a perfect man. He was a man lead by God Himself, but still a man. He was a man like us but sinned not!! He did not have an Earthly father like us, but He was still very much the seed of David as promised!! Again, this IS scriptural!!
Do not confuse who Jesus was before He was exalted with who He was after His resurrection. I know it is hard to come to the realization that what we believed is true actually is false; however, it is important that we believe the truth, even if that means we have to admit that we believed the wrong thing. I, too, found it very hard to accept, but I believe that God kept leading me to verses that prove that Jesus did not preexist. Just like when I was trying to believe in the trinity, God kept leading me to verses that proved otherwise!! The truth is right in front of us in black and white!!
Again, reread the SCRIPTURE that I have given you so far and pray upon it. I am open to you showing me where I am wrong, but I need solid scripture to believe otherwise. I am not going to believe it “just because I always have.” I have already admitted to myself and GOD that I was mislead into believing in a preexistent Christ.
So tell me….was Jesus a man while on Earth??
or do you believe He had a dual nature??
or was He fully God??
or something else???
please answer.
jb,
I really appreciate your search but I do not agree with your conclusions. You add your bias to scriptures as we all do and we need to beware of this. If Jesus was only a man, we are lost in our sins. A principal established by Jehovah in the OT is that a righteous man can not die for the sins of even one other man let alone all other men. Also, the prophets do not prophesy that a man will become deity? This is paganism.Quote So tell me….was Jesus a man while on Earth?? Jesus was God, in the beginning by nature according to the Spirit (and scripture) and came to be also man according to the flesh after Mary conceived Him. He was both the Root and the Shoot while on earth. Not the way you think about roots though.
Btw, jb, when asked who are your roots, do you name your ancestors or your descendants?
Quote (Lightenup @ May 23 2013,18:44) jb,
I really appreciate your search but I do not agree with your conclusions. You add your bias to scriptures as we all do and we need to beware of this. If Jesus was only a man, we are lost in our sins. A principal established by Jehovah in the OT is that a righteous man can not die for the sins of even one other man let alone all other men. Also, the prophets do not prophesy that a man will become deity? This is paganism.
I disagree about the bias. I searched the scripture, not with a preset belief about a prexistent Jesus. If you want to say that I did, then my bias would be toward believing that He DID preexist. I think that would be a flaw in your argument, right??When I was studying the scriptures and praying to God about this, my belief was originally that He preexisted as Son. Now, my wife kept asking me during my study what do I believe. I kept telling her that I am putting aside my belief in order to seek the TRUTH!! I meant every word of that!! What I discovered was scripture after scripture proving that Jesus did NOT preexist.
Even after I discovered this, I was still trying to hold on to this old belief. I kept praying for God to reveal the truth to me. I did not want to accept “another unorthodox view.” But, I saw that it isn't about MAN and HIS Doctrine….It is solely about GOD and HIS doctrine!!! Every time I would pray for a revelation, I found more scripture that proved that Jesus was who GOD said He was!! I then prayed…thanking God for the revelation and asking for forgiveness for allowing myself to be mislead by the doctrine of man.
As far as you saying, “If Jesus was only a man, we are lost in our sins.” That is not true!! If he was only a “righteous” man then that would be true, but He was a SINLESS man. That IS the perfect sacrifice, and THAT is the reason WHY He was able to atone for our sins.
NEXT…you say, “Also, the prophets do not prophesy that a man will become deity? This is paganism.” First define deity!! Merriam-Webster defines it as…
1) the rank or essential nature of a god. (Or GOD!!)
2)one exalted or revered as supremely good or powerful
I would say both of these definitions would fit what Jesus is said to be exalted to by scripture. What say you??Quote (Lightenup @ May 23 2013,18:51) Quote So tell me….was Jesus a man while on Earth?? Jesus was God, in the beginning by nature according to the Spirit (and scripture) and came to be also man according to the flesh after Mary conceived Him. He was both the Root and the Shoot while on earth. Not the way you think about roots though.
Btw, jb, when asked who are your roots, do you name your ancestors or your descendants?
Well lets not go by the way WE think about “roots” since it is written in GREEK….Romans 15:12
And again, Esaias saith, There shall be a root of Jesse, and he that shall rise to reign over the Gentiles; in him shall the Gentiles trust.Revelation 5:5
And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.The word root is “rhiza”
According to Strong's Concordance it means….
a root, shoot, source; that which comes from the root, a descendent.I believe it is the “shoots” that I was talking about before!! And YES, by definition…I could call my descendants….my “rhiza.” I wouldn't call them “my roots” because obviously it would confuse those that speak English. That being said, these verses are in Greek.
Again, we can not just take the translations as they are if we see an apparent contradiction!! I have said it over and over. I believe that is why GOD has told us…SEEK and ye shall find!!
Psalm 9:10
And they that know thy name will put their trust in thee: for thou, Lord, hast not forsaken them that seek thee.Psalm 14:2
The Lord looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God.Psalm 69:32
The humble shall see this, and be glad: and your heart shall live that seek God.Psalm 119:2
Blessed are they that keep his testimonies, and that seek him with the whole heart.Proverbs 8:17
I love them that love me; and those that seek me early shall find me.Matthew 6:33
But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.Matthew 7:7
Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:I could go on and on….Obviously SEEKING GOD is important!!
This is one of my favorites…
Acts 17:11
These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.This is what I am saying. Be hungry for the word of God. Then, search the scriptures daily to see if what you hear or read is true!!
I would like you to consider a few things….
First, I can not say that it is a “salvation issue” whether to believe, like me that God being the Father only is one, or like you that Jesus and the Father are both God as one. That being said, consider this, assuming that YOU are correct, when I die and stand before YHVH, He will see that I followed EXACTLY what Jesus SAID!! I do not believe that He will hold this “mystery” that you or bitarians or trinitarians claim that His Being is. If I can't “crack the code” as many, many believers of this 2 in 1 or 3 in 1 God is, I am sure He will not hold it against me. Even those that “believe in it” have an extremely hard time articulating exactly what or how it is!! And, like I said, it actually goes against what Jesus actually teaches!!!
Now, if I am right!!! You or any of the other 2in1, 3in1, 4in1, etc..people out there are making a HUGE mistake. You all would be worshiping Jesus AS God, even though He told you that His FATHER is the ONE TRUE GOD!! This breaks the greatest commandment as told by Jesus and GOD, The Lord your GOD is ONE!!! Think about it….just for a second!! I would never say believe what I am saying as some sort of “fail safe,” but you should consider the consequences of your beliefs. You should actually believe what I am saying because it goes along with what scripture says!!!
The other thing that I want you to consider is this….
We are to be DISCIPLES of Christ!!! What does that mean??? It means that we are suppose to be FOLLOWERS of Christ!! How can we say that we are FOLLOWERS of Christ when He NEVER, NEVER, NEVER said that
a) He is God..
b) Worship me..
or c) or that He is equal to God?
He IS SUPPOSE to be OUR example!!! What did He do???
He…submitted to the will of His Father, GOD.
gave ALL the glory to His Father, GOD.
did exactly as commanded by His Father, GOD.
worshiped as the Only God…His Father, GOD.
prayed to His Father, GOD.Now notice two things…1) He identifies His Father as God and God as His Father. And His Father as the ONE TRUE GOD.
and 2) When asked by His disciples, “teach us HOW to pray?”
Notice that He teaches them to pray like this….
Luke 11:2
And he said unto them, When ye pray, say, Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in heaven, so in earth.So, He doesn't say, “Jesus or God or Ya'll.” He TEACHES them that when you pray, you should start off with “OUR FATHER”!! And who did He identify as “our Father” again….that's right, GOD!!
Again, I urge you to do what I have done. Do not seek the scripture for what you believe to be true. Pray to God to reveal the truth to you…then SEEK the TRUTH!!
I believe it is my turn to ask a question so…I believe that you are saying that He was fully God and fully Man while on Earth.
If so, then How was He “just like us”?
And, since God CAN'T die, when did His “fully God” part leave Him?jb,
This is a well written document that expresses what I believe God has been teaching me when I went to Him, much like you, with a willingness to challenge the trinity doctrine.
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