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This thread is a one on one discussion between Lightenup and jb2u. Please respect that. If anyone else posts here, their post will likely be deleted. Thank you!
Hello jb2u,
Maybe you can copy and paste your significant posts to me that you want me to address right here. Then pick out one question that you want me to address first.I'm looking forward to a discussion with you.
I would like to start off with a simple question.
I am asking because I want to know that you are open to seeking the truth, even if it is something other than what you currently believe. I am not saying you will change your mind, but I'd like to know that you can at least stop and truly think when you see a verse that obviously IS problematic to a trinity concept!! I do not believe GOD will EVER punish those that are seeking to find the truth about Him. He loves us and wants us to know Him. Therefore, we must put aside any paper or creed that came from men and go solely on the word of GOD. I believe we can agree on that.
My first question is going to be….
Does it not give you pause that Jesus called His Father the ONE ONLY TRUE GOD? My question is…does it even give you pause? I honestly want to know. I am not asking if you believe it. I want to know that it at least makes you stop and think just for a minute, at least!!Jb2u,
I pause and prayerfully consider most questions about scripture that I get on here including that one. The opportunity to do so since this is a message board and not a live chat is what I prefer. I take this seriously and fear God. I have the personality that strongly desires to be accurate and to know the truth about things.Ok jb2u here is your question:
You believe that Jesus is not Jehovah God but he is another god. True or false?
This seems to be a debate so moved it here. Group Discussions is for like-minded people who want a conversation among themselves.
Quote (Lightenup @ May 04 2013,08:08) Ok jb2u here is your question: You believe that Jesus is not Jehovah God but he is another god. True or false?
I will say true in the sense that “god” or “elohim” means “mighty one” or “mighty leader.”He is a mighty one indeed; however, He is not the Almighty GOD. There IS a difference!! Really we are talking semantics. We both know what GOD and god means!! We both know GOD differentiates between God and god. Otherwise why does he call judges “gods” and yet he says that He is the only “GOD”? Notice, there is a difference between God and god to GOD; and so, we shouldn't really debate over IF there is a difference when obviously there is a difference to GOD?
My Question…
We know that the Jews believed that GOD was one and not a triune God. Jesus restated this belief by restating the Shema.
I think this is an important point, please think about it….Why was there no mention in the Bible about this NEW concept of a triune God? They argued about the law, saved by faith, eating meat, salvation for the gentiles (all documented in the Bible), and yet no controversy about this new concept of a trinity.
How do you explain this? (and NO, the idea even to this day of a triune God is rejected by the Jews; so, it would have been a controversy back then as well.)
Please don't make this discussion about the 'triune' God or the 'trinity doctrine.' I believe that I have explained to you that I have yet to understand and accept the idea that the Holy Spirit is a 'person.' I better understand the Holy Spirit as the omnipresence of the Father and Son which originates from their inner person.
I believe that the Shema was meant to declare that Jehovah was their God and not any other gods like the sun god or the moon god, etc. See this page for so many of the gods that are in the Bible:
http://www.bible-history.com/isbe/G/GODS/I don't believe that the Shema was declaring that Jehovah was one person necessarily.
You say that there is no mention of a new concept of a triune God. Well, I am not defending a triune God but I am defending that there is a Godhead of the Father and the Son together with their Holy Spirit. In the OT there is no mention of God our Father AND the Lord Jesus Christ but in the NT it is mentioned all over and the two are listed together a bizillion times. Do you not notice the difference between the OT and the NT here? The NT constantly mentions the two together and there is quite the emphasis of doing miraculous things in the name of Jesus. In the OT there is NO mention of doing miraculous things in the name of Jesus. In fact, Jehovah says if the prophets ever speak of doing things in the name of another god other than Jehovah, they will be killed. The Pharisees wanted to forbid anyone doing things in the name of Jesus. The Jews claimed that Paul was teaching them to worship differently than they were accustomed to.
So you see that there was quite the controversy back then about the Godhead being more than the Father. The Jews couldn't accept this and Paul stopped going to persuade the Jews and went to the Gentiles to persuade them.
My question to you jb, is regarding this passage:
Quote Deut 18:15“The Lord your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among you, from your brothers—it is to him you shall listen— 16just as you desired of the Lord your God at Horeb on the day of the assembly, when you said, ‘Let me not hear again the voice of the Lord my God or see this great fire any more, lest I die.’ 17And the Lord said to me, ‘They are right in what they have spoken. 18I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their brothers. And I will put my words in his mouth, and he shall speak to them all that I command him. 19And whoever will not listen to my words that he shall speak in my name, I myself will require it of him. 20But the prophet who presumes to speak a word in my name that I have not commanded him to speak, or who speaks in the name of other gods, that same prophet shall die.’ 21And if you say in your heart, ‘How may we know the word that the Lord has not spoken?’— 22when a prophet speaks in the name of the Lord, if the word does not come to pass or come true, that is a word that the Lord has not spoken; the prophet has spoken it presumptuously. You need not be afraid of him. How do you explain that the disciples commonly and boldly did miraculous things and spoke boldly in the name of (according to you) another god which you claim Jesus is since you do not believe that He is Jehovah, the Son?
Acts 9
26And when he had come to Jerusalem, he attempted to join the disciples. And they were all afraid of him, for they did not believe that he was a disciple. 27But Barnabas took him and brought him to the apostles and declared to them how on the road he had seen the Lord, who spoke to him, and how at Damascus he had preached boldly in the name of Jesus. 28So he went in and out among them at Jerusalem, preaching boldly in the name of the Lord. 29And he spoke and disputed against the Hellenists.b But they were seeking to kill him. 30And when the brothers learned this, they brought him down to Caesarea and sent him off to Tarsus.Quote (Lightenup @ May 11 2013,16:26) Please don't make this discussion about the 'triune' God or the 'trinity doctrine.' I believe that I have explained to you that I have yet to understand and accept the idea that the Holy Spirit is a 'person.' I better understand the Holy Spirit as the omnipresence of the Father and Son which originates from their inner person. I believe that the Shema was meant to declare that Jehovah was their God and not any other gods like the sun god or the moon god, etc. See this page for so many of the gods that are in the Bible:
http://www.bible-history.com/isbe/G/GODS/I don't believe that the Shema was declaring that Jehovah was one person necessarily.
You say that there is no mention of a new concept of a triune God. Well, I am not defending a triune God but I am defending that there is a Godhead of the Father and the Son together with their Holy Spirit. In the OT there is no mention of God our Father AND the Lord Jesus Christ but in the NT it is mentioned all over and the two are listed together a bizillion times. Do you not notice the difference between the OT and the NT here? The NT constantly mentions the two together and there is quite the emphasis of doing miraculous things in the name of Jesus. In the OT there is NO mention of doing miraculous things in the name of Jesus. In fact, Jehovah says if the prophets ever speak of doing things in the name of another god other than Jehovah, they will be killed. The Pharisees wanted to forbid anyone doing things in the name of Jesus. The Jews claimed that Paul was teaching them to worship differently than they were accustomed to.
So you see that there was quite the controversy back then about the Godhead being more than the Father. The Jews couldn't accept this and Paul stopped going to persuade the Jews and went to the Gentiles to persuade them.
1) I apologize for the “wording.” I admit that I do not really know your views entirely!! I believe that you are a very honest person that wants to believe the truth. Now, when I see you mention a “Godhead”, it really does not seem different to me than a “trinity concept.” As in, just another way to explain what exactly the trinity is. I see that you do not accept that the Holy Spirit is a person; however, you believe that Jesus and the Father are both, together, combined whenever you see YHVH. Is that correct?? So if you see YHVH is great, what YOU see is Jesus and the Father is great. Is that correct?? I am just asking to clarify, not meaning to attack in any way!!2) As for the difference in the OT and NT, the coming Messiah was foretold. The God of the OT is the SAME God of the NT. The difference is now (NT) Jesus has entered the picture. Jesus, as well as GOD, wanted everyone to know and UNDERSTAND that they were of one ACCORD, not one person!! And so, we see the mention of the Father and Jesus. Let's not forget that Jesus said that he was here to do His Father's will. He was here to say what His Father COMMANDED Him to say. He wanted glory so that He could glorify His Father, the one true God, and NOT Himself. If Jesus had come on the scene and not made the connection with the Father, it would seem like He WAS God. And so, in order to make it CLEAR that He was NOT God, He kept on giving all the credit, glory, honor to the ONE true God, His Father. He took credit for NOTHING that He did on Earth, right? I believe it was not to be humble, but because He truly was doing what we should do and giving all the credit, glory, honor to the ONE true God, the Father. Let's say I have some money. There is a man I know that is having a hard time and has not eaten due to losing his job. I give him $100 dollars worth of groceries. He says, “thanks John.” Now, should I say, “your welcome”? OR, should I say, “don't thank me. It is a gift from GOD”? Keep in mind that ALL that we have is from GOD. It all belongs to Him!! You see, God gave me money so that I could then give HIM ALL the glory!!! I believe that is the example that Jesus set for us!!
3) No, Paul did not just stop going to the Jews and went to the Gentiles. It was always God's plan to “go to the Gentiles.” The Jews were still taught the Gospel by other disciples and will be again when the two witnesses come!!! I fail to see where the controversy over the “Godhead” was. PLEASE, give me some verses to support this claim!!
Quote (Lightenup @ May 11 2013,16:36) My question to you jb, is regarding this passage: Quote Deut 18:15“The Lord your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among you, from your brothers—it is to him you shall listen— 16just as you desired of the Lord your God at Horeb on the day of the assembly, when you said, ‘Let me not hear again the voice of the Lord my God or see this great fire any more, lest I die.’ 17And the Lord said to me, ‘They are right in what they have spoken. 18I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their brothers. And I will put my words in his mouth, and he shall speak to them all that I command him. 19And whoever will not listen to my words that he shall speak in my name, I myself will require it of him. 20But the prophet who presumes to speak a word in my name that I have not commanded him to speak, or who speaks in the name of other gods, that same prophet shall die.’ 21And if you say in your heart, ‘How may we know the word that the Lord has not spoken?’— 22when a prophet speaks in the name of the Lord, if the word does not come to pass or come true, that is a word that the Lord has not spoken; the prophet has spoken it presumptuously. You need not be afraid of him. How do you explain that the disciples commonly and boldly did miraculous things and spoke boldly in the name of (according to you) another god which you claim Jesus is since you do not believe that He is Jehovah, the Son?
Acts 9
26And when he had come to Jerusalem, he attempted to join the disciples. And they were all afraid of him, for they did not believe that he was a disciple. 27But Barnabas took him and brought him to the apostles and declared to them how on the road he had seen the Lord, who spoke to him, and how at Damascus he had preached boldly in the name of Jesus. 28So he went in and out among them at Jerusalem, preaching boldly in the name of the Lord. 29And he spoke and disputed against the Hellenists.b But they were seeking to kill him. 30And when the brothers learned this, they brought him down to Caesarea and sent him off to Tarsus.
The disciples did NOT commonly and boldly do miraculous things and speak boldly in “the name of another god.”!!!!What they did do is commonly and boldly do miraculous things and spoke boldly in the name of the Son of God, Jesus. They did this because GOD, the Father, told them to do these things in the name of His Son!!!
Do you see the difference in the two above statements??
You see, our salvation is THROUGH Jesus. Jesus PAID for our sins. Our GOD has bestowed great honor upon Jesus for His obedience and self-sacrifice!! So much so, that every being, including angels, are subject to Jesus; however, notice that Jesus is STILL subject to the ONE true GOD, His Father!!
If GOD tells you to honor a pencil, you better do it!!! If GOD puts everyone under Moses, you better concede to it. BUT, GOD did NOT do that. Instead, He put everyone under Jesus, the Son OF the living God!!! People mistake the fact that GOD elevated Jesus to a high position with the fallacy that Jesus must be GOD. They fail to see that what Jesus is….GOD made Him!!! There IS a difference.
My next question will be….
Why would Jesus turn everything over to GOD, so that GOD can be all and all, if He is or is a part of GOD?1 Corinthians 15:28
And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.Quote 1) I apologize for the “wording.” I admit that I do not really know your views entirely!! I believe that you are a very honest person that wants to believe the truth. Now, when I see you mention a “Godhead”, it really does not seem different to me than a “trinity concept.” As in, just another way to explain what exactly the trinity is. I see that you do not accept that the Holy Spirit is a person; however, you believe that Jesus and the Father are both, together, combined whenever you see YHVH. Is that correct?? So if you see YHVH is great, what YOU see is Jesus and the Father is great. Is that correct?? I am just asking to clarify, not meaning to attack in any way!! This would depend on the context, jb2u. When I see YHVH and perceive that the Father is meant, sometimes the Son is meant, sometimes both are meant and sometimes I am unsure if one or both are meant.
Quote The disciples did NOT commonly and boldly do miraculous things and speak boldly in “the name of another god.”!!!! I know that the disciples did not commonly and boldly do miraculous things and speak boldly in “the name of another god” because Jesus is YHVH in some manner. However you do not teach that because you believe that Jesus is not YHVH in any manner yet you admit that Jesus is a theos another theos but a much less theos than the Father. You can't have it both ways jb2u. Either Jesus is YHVH in some manner or He is another theos. The disciples are either going against Jehovah by boldly preaching in the name of Jesus if, according to you, He is another theos besides YHVH; or the disciples are more fully understanding the Godhead and boldly preaching in the name of Jesus who is YHVH also.
Also, within the Godhead, there are different roles and positions…one who directs and one who accomplishes the direction…one who is a higher authority of the other because He is the Father of the other.
The thing is Jesus is not YHVH. Nowhere in the whole Bible does it state that!!
According to you, “I see YHVH and perceive that the Father is meant, sometimes the Son is meant, sometimes both are meant and sometimes I am unsure if one or both are meant.”
GOD wants you to be sure and know that HE is the ONE. The reason that you are “unsure” sometimes is because you believe that the Father and Jesus are both YHVH. If you understood that there is only one YHVH and that YHVH is the Father only, then you would not be confused about who is being spoken of.As far as the whole “theos” thing, it is just a word to describe his might, leadership, and authority. It is GIVEN to Him BY God; and so, He has every right to it!!! Jesus is, no doubt, less than the Father. Jesus said it Himself. I am not trying to have it “both ways.” I only go by what the scripture actually says. God said Himself there are “theos many”!!! I would assume that all of those theos, of which GOD spoke, are LESS than GOD. Wouldn't you agree? And if judges are theos (according to GOD), then wouldn't you agree that Jesus (theos) is greater than the judges (theos)? So, we have GOD, then Jesus, then judges. All of them theos, but only ONE GOD, the Father!! GOD is not just “a” theos. He is THE Theos!!! GOD is all about order. We are surrounded by order!! He appointed men to lead the Israelites. He has an apparent hierarchy for the angels. We know that the great leaders were theos, and the angles are theos; so, why wouldn't He put a theos over mankind? Again, there are many theos in the Bible, but only one YHVH.
Quote (Lightenup @ May 16 2013,16:06) Jb,
Please tell me what word describes the Son's inherent nature as the Root of Jesse. Thanks!
One word?….. “FOUNDATION”In Jesus' case, it is a new foundation. A new beginning.
For the meaning behind Isaiah 11, which I assume that you are referring to, see Isaiah 10.
The tree of Jesse will be reduced to a stump (the defined word for the Hebrew word “geza” translated stem). And out of this stump, a root is produced which is Jesus. This root will flourish; whereas the “forest” that is the Assyrians (as described in Isaiah 10) will die. There fruit will bear nothing. The root of satan will die (Isaiah 14), and the root of Jesse will become great once again and for eternity!!
I assume you believe that Jesus was the beginning of Jesse. Is that correct? I believe many do, but in light of Isaiah 10 and 14, we can not continue to believe that Jesus is the beginning of Jesse. The Bible clearly shows that Jesus came OUT OF the line of Jesse. A Davidic line that was once great & powerful; and yet, “cut down” to a stump in Jesus' day.
So Jesus is the root of Jesse. Without the tree of Jesse there would not have been a stem to drop new roots. The root of satan are called the Assyrians. Do you believe they came from satan, or were they the creators of satan??
If we just open our Bibles and read all of Isaiah and not just one or two verses and try to derive meaning from them, it becomes clear what is meant by “the root of Jesse.”
Please forgive me if I wrongly assumed your meaning behind “root of Jesse.” If I am wrong, please tell me what it is that you believe it means.
Quote And out of this stump, a root is produced which is Jesus. This root will flourish; In grade school you probably saw a picture of a plant with roots that are underground and from the roots the stem sprouts and from the stem, then we have the branches and from the branches we get fruit. We don't get more roots from out of the stem. There is a reason that many believe that Jesus was the source of Jesse. They paid attention in grade school. The mystery is that Jesus is the root of the plant AND also the branch coming from the stem and bears the fruit. He is two different parts. He came before Jesse as his source and came after Jesse as his descendant.
What was the nature of the Son before He became flesh or do you not believe that the Son existed before He became flesh?
Quote The thing is Jesus is not YHVH. Nowhere in the whole Bible does it state that!! Wrong on this account also…I have run out of battery and need sleep anyways. More to come on this…
Quote (Lightenup @ May 17 2013,16:44) Quote And out of this stump, a root is produced which is Jesus. This root will flourish; In grade school you probably saw a picture of a plant with roots that are underground and from the roots the stem sprouts and from the stem, then we have the branches and from the branches we get fruit. We don't get more roots from out of the stem. There is a reason that many believe that Jesus was the source of Jesse. They paid attention in grade school. The mystery is that Jesus is the root of the plant AND also the branch coming from the stem and bears the fruit. He is two different parts. He came before Jesse as his source and came after Jesse as his descendant.
What was the nature of the Son before He became flesh or do you not believe that the Son existed before He became flesh?
I can look out my window and see a tree in my front yard.That tree grew and made stems that produced leaves and fruit that drop. Now, around this tree, there are more trees coming forth. These new trees have there own roots, but one can easily say that the roots came from the first tree because that first tree was the source of the seeds that started that root. The problem is a misunderstanding of the words used in that scripture!! Not in my lack of understanding of dendrology.
Again, read Isaiah again. It is clear that the tree is not bearing fruit. Out of this tree comes forth a new root that is Jesus.
Also, God promised that the Messiah would come OUT of the Davidic line, not that He would be the source of the Davidic line.
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