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Jodi Lee said:
Quote We are told throughout the OT that it was YHWH ALONE who created the heavens and the earth. But the NT says that Christ is the creator (Hebrews 1; Colossians 1).
Jodi Lee needs to come to terms with the fact that the NT explains the OT. No degree in rocket science is needed to comprehend this.
thinker
Ok lets look at hebrews 1 once more…
Verse 3Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:
This is the trinitarian view…we see Jesus as the express image of God's person.
What does an express image mean?
Express: to put (thought) into words; utter or state: to express an idea clearly.
2. to show, manifest, or reveal: to express one's anger.So Jesus was the manifest or revealed image of God. Who was capable of purging our sins?
I thought YHWH was the only one who can forgive sins?
Did not Jesus say in revelation that he is The Alpha and the Omega? Did not YHWH say that as well in the OT?
BTW Jodi Lee, if you take a look at verse 9 and 10 of hebrews, it is not a transition from talking about The Son then switching to The Father….
THE WHOLE CHAPTER WAS ABOUT THE SON.
From beginning to end the TOPIC was The Son?
but you are saying that verse 9 and 10 quickly reverted to The Father and not the son? Isn't it the anti-trinitarians who agree that Jesus was LORD but not YHWH?
Don't the anti-trinitarians say that we can call Jesus LORD, but that doesn't make him YHWH…then why would you automatically assume when verse 10 says LORD it is addressing YHWH and not The Son?
Lets look from verse 8
8But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
9Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
10And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:
11They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment;
12And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail.
13But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?
14Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?
The whole thing up to verse 10 is talking about The Son, your arguement Jodi Lee is that 10-12 switches to praising YHWH, then 13 and 14 reverts back to The Son?
I'm sorry I cannot agree, if the purpose of The Chapter were to praise The Son, it'd be a moot point to stop, praise YHWH, then finish praising The Son.
It makes more sense attributing the whole chapter to The Son.
BTW from verse 9 to 10 you get
9Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
10And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:
If the Object of verse 9 was the Son, and verse 10 begins with
And then, the and in verse 10 is inclusive of the object in verse 9…therefore verse 9 and 10 were both speaking of the same Object, which was Jesus.whoa……
back up verse 1/2
Elohim having of old spoken in many portions, and many ways to the fathers by the prophets has spoken to us by the Son, whom he has appointed heir of all, through he whom also he made the ageswhy omit these verses, in full they speak of father and son.
and if you are the highest ranking god, how can you seat yourself on your own right hand?
Quote (thethinker @ Aug. 28 2009,05:24) Jodi Lee said: Quote We are told throughout the OT that it was YHWH ALONE who created the heavens and the earth. But the NT says that Christ is the creator (Hebrews 1; Colossians 1).
Jodi Lee needs to come to terms with the fact that the NT explains the OT. No degree in rocket science is needed to comprehend this.
thinker
It can also be said that the Old Testament explains the New. Mainstream Christianity is the product of pagan converts IGNORING the Old Testament, and understanding the New according to their previous held pagan ideas, such as Plato. Then to make matters worse they didn't let people read the bible at all, then they translated the bible according to their made up doctrine!Do you still confess that Jesus is YHWH, Thinker?
Quote (942767 @ Aug. 14 2009,09:13) Hi RM: I fail to understand why there has to be such a thing as the “trinity doctrine” when there are unambiguous scriptures that tell us that Jesus is the Christ the Son of the Living God(Matt. 16:13-17), and that the Holy Spirit is God's Spirit (1 Co. 2:10).
This(the trinity) is a man made doctrine based on someone trying to understand the scriptures, and the church has made it doctrine that they say is a fact.
God is not the author of confusion.
Love in Christ,
Marty
Marty you are so right that the trinity is a man made doctrine. It was Quintus Septimus Florens Tertullian who first taught that doctrine. He was born to pagan Parents in A.D. 155. It is so sad to me that so many have fallen under that wrong system. We should be very thankful to God that He opponent our eyes to see. Most did not even know how to read and were so illiterate.
Peace and Love IreneQuote (RokkaMan @ Aug. 14 2009,05:30) I get frustrated because all I see from Anti-Trinitarians is that they believe we think there are three Gods. Every post we make about trinitarianism, it gets refuted with the SAME scriptures where God says HE IS ONE, and there is no God before him.
Or we see posts where it shows ONLY GOD made the heavens and the earth.
CLEARING UP THE SMOKE
WE AGREEE WITH ALL OF THAT.
We agree that there is ONLY 1 God.
We agree ONLY God made the heavens and Earth.
WE AGREE that there is no OTHER God before God.
What don't you understand about that?
Our belief is that, The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit are 3 manifestations, or persons of THE ONE AND ONLY GOD.
Is God not powerful enough to give each manifestation His own will and identity?
Yet even when they are given their own will and identity, they always share The Father's will.
—————————————————Please stop trying to refute us with monotheism….why?
Because Trinitarians are Monotheists.
Would you say I am 3 Human Beings, or 1?
I am 1 Human Being, with 3 manifestations…The Spirit/Soul/and Flesh
God is 1 God with 3 manifestations….The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit.
IT IS ONE GOD.
Amen
RokkaMan, all you have shown is weak human reasoning.Scripture would be better.
Try these ones below. They will show up your human reasoning for what it is.
It will only be pride if you decide to defend the Trinity doctrine after reading these scriptures.
John 6:46
No one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only he has seen the Father.John 17:3
Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.1 Corinthians 11:3
Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.Ephesians 4:4-6
4 there is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to one hope when you were called
5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism;
6 one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.Revelation 1:1
The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place.
He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John,Revelation 1:6
and has made us to be a kingdom and priests to serve his God and Father to him be glory and power for ever and ever! Amen.Quote (RokkaMan @ Aug. 14 2009,05:30) I get frustrated because all I see from Anti-Trinitarians is that they believe we think there are three Gods. Every post we make about trinitarianism, it gets refuted with the SAME scriptures where God says HE IS ONE, and there is no God before him.
Or we see posts where it shows ONLY GOD made the heavens and the earth.
CLEARING UP THE SMOKE
WE AGREEE WITH ALL OF THAT.
We agree that there is ONLY 1 God.
We agree ONLY God made the heavens and Earth.
WE AGREE that there is no OTHER God before God.
What don't you understand about that?
Our belief is that, The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit are 3 manifestations, or persons of THE ONE AND ONLY GOD.
Is God not powerful enough to give each manifestation His own will and identity?
Yet even when they are given their own will and identity, they always share The Father's will.
—————————————————Please stop trying to refute us with monotheism….why?
Because Trinitarians are Monotheists.
Would you say I am 3 Human Beings, or 1?
I am 1 Human Being, with 3 manifestations…The Spirit/Soul/and Flesh
God is 1 God with 3 manifestations….The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit.
IT IS ONE GOD.
Amen
“manifestations” of one God?You seem to be slipping into modalism or Sabellianism like the “Jesus only” Pentecostals.
Quote (Cindy @ Sep. 03 2009,16:33) Quote (942767 @ Aug. 14 2009,09:13) Hi RM: I fail to understand why there has to be such a thing as the “trinity doctrine” when there are unambiguous scriptures that tell us that Jesus is the Christ the Son of the Living God(Matt. 16:13-17), and that the Holy Spirit is God's Spirit (1 Co. 2:10).
This(the trinity) is a man made doctrine based on someone trying to understand the scriptures, and the church has made it doctrine that they say is a fact.
God is not the author of confusion.
Love in Christ,
Marty
Marty you are so right that the trinity is a man made doctrine. It was Quintus Septimus Florens Tertullian who first taught that doctrine. He was born to pagan Parents in A.D. 155. It is so sad to me that so many have fallen under that wrong system. We should be very thankful to God that He opponent our eyes to see. Most did not even know how to read and were so illiterate.
Peace and Love Irene
Irene likes to play pretend. Here's what an earlier church father than Tertulian stated about Christ. (BTW, this guy knew the apostles, was their successor, and was martyred for the faith)Ignatius of Antioch
“[T]o the Church at Ephesus in Asia . . . chosen through true suffering by the will of the Father in Jesus Christ our God” (Letter to the Ephesians 1 [A.D. 110]).
“For our God, Jesus Christ, was conceived by Mary in accord with God’s plan: of the seed of David, it is true, but also of the Holy Spirit” (ibid., 18:2).
Hi CA,
Dying for the catholic faith offers no advantages with God as folks have been killed on behalf of many odd religions.Why not follow Jesus?
Ignoring Nick and moving on… How about this early church father?
Theophilus of Antioch
“It is the attribute of God, of the most high and almighty and of the living God, not only to be everywhere, but also to see and hear all; for he can in no way be contained in a place. . . . The three days before the luminaries were created are types of the Trinity: God, his Word, and his Wisdom” (To Autolycus 2:15 [A.D. 181]).
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Sep. 04 2009,10:38) Hi CA,
Call no man father.
Philosphers hijacked the church and divided it from Christ.
And Nick has been continuing the legacy of dividing for over 38,000 posts now. Not one encouraging word has come off Nick's keyboard since I have been here.thinker
Hi TT,
No false teachings are not encouraged here but they remain very popular.
Men do not change except by rebirth from above.Quote (CatholicApologist @ Sep. 04 2009,09:20) Irene likes to play pretend. Here's what an earlier church father than Tertulian stated about Christ. (BTW, this guy knew the apostles, was their successor, and was martyred for the faith) Ignatius of Antioch
“[T]o the Church at Ephesus in Asia . . . chosen through true suffering by the will of the Father in Jesus Christ our God” (Letter to the Ephesians 1 [A.D. 110]).
“For our God, Jesus Christ, was conceived by Mary in accord with God’s plan: of the seed of David, it is true, but also of the Holy Spirit” (ibid., 18:2).
Indeed for our God, Jesus Christ, was conceived by Mary in accord with God’s plan.This doesn't teach a Trinity, but that Jesus was conceived of Mary for our God.
Ignatius also taught the following:
Ignatius, who is Theophorus, to the Church which has received grace through the greatness of the Father Most High. (Third Epistle).
I have learned that certain of the ministers of Satan have wished to disturb you, some of them asserting that Jesus was born [only] in appearance, was crucified in appearance, and died in appearance, others that He is not the Son the Creator, and others that He is Himself God over all. (To the Tarsians, II).
And that He who was born of a woman was the Son of God, and He that was crucified was “the first-born of every creature,” and God the Word, who also created all things. For says the apostle, “There is one God, the Father, of whom are all things; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things”. And again, “For there is one God, and one Mediator between God and man, the man Christ Jesus (To the Tarsians, IV).
And that He Himself is not God over all, and the Father, but His Son, He says, “I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and to my God and your God. And again, “When all things shall be subjected unto Him, then shall He also Himself be subject unto Him that put all things under Him, that God may be all in all.” Wherefore it is One [God] who put all things under, and who is all in all, and another [His Son] to whom they were subdued, who also Himself, along with all other things, becomes subject [to the former]. (To the Tarsians, V; cf. 1 Cor 15:24-28).
Quote This doesn't teach a Trinity, but that Jesus was conceived of Mary for our God. No, this teaches it the first way you stated it. That Jesus, (who is) our God, was conceived of Mary.
Hi CA,
So your God was conceived of Mary?
No wonder you worship her and imagine she was taken to heaven.Quote (Nick Hassan @ Sep. 10 2009,19:07) Hi CA,
You might need to remove Jb25 from your bible.
Our God is not a man.
Nick,
It was Bildad who said that man was a “maggot” and that the son of man was a “worm” (Job 25). God condemned Bildad and his friends for what they said and commanded them to offer sacrifices for the sinful things they spoke (Job 42:7-9).King David had a much higher view of man and the son of man than Bildad did. King David said that the son of man was made a little lower than God and was crowned with glory and honor.
You will have to remove Philippians 2 from your Bible which says that our God took the form of a man. I marvel that you would take the false words of a man who was condemned by God Himself and try to disprove that God could become a man. You show yourself more inept every day.
thinker
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