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Quote So if Jesus came from The Father, he is NOT The Father, yet he is equally God for he is of the same Essence I have come from the father, i believe in the Son, I carry the same spirit………does not make me equal with Father.
Christ was begotten, no wonder he gave us warning about he would state to ones ” I do not know you”
think your smoke is coming from the pits of hell, there is nothing to clear up, its plain as day.
Quote (RokkaMan @ Aug. 15 2009,06:49) Who cares what you think now? You're not even a christian. Again, who cares what you think….
Those are understandings of a sinner. As we know creation is corrupt because of sin.
So if you try to understand your Father through creation? Then we all know that your views are corrupted.
My views are based on scripture, and I take scripture and build a logical explaination with the assistance of The Holy Spirit.
I feel The Holy Spirit within me stirred up, everytime I make these posts. Sometimes the wisdom I'm imparted with are too hard to put into words.
Is it the Holy Spirit you feel or your own bloated ego?I will answer in the words of Thomas Jefferson, “… I am a REAL CHRISTIAN, that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus, very different from the Platonists, who call ME infidel and THEMSELVES Christians and preachers of the Gospel, while they draw all their characteristic dogmas from what its author never said nor saw. They have compounded from the heathen mysteries a system beyond the comprehension of man, of which the great reformer of the vicious ethics and deism of the Jews, were he to return on earth, would not recognize one feature.”
Cato……….Amen to Thomas Jefferson. It is evident he was not decieved by Trinitarian Mysteries, No wonder He was able to see clearly and write our Declaration of Independence, He was a great statesman. IMO
peace and love to you and yours……………….gene
Quote (Cato @ Aug. 17 2009,23:48) Quote (RokkaMan @ Aug. 15 2009,06:49) Who cares what you think now? You're not even a christian. Again, who cares what you think….
Those are understandings of a sinner. As we know creation is corrupt because of sin.
So if you try to understand your Father through creation? Then we all know that your views are corrupted.
My views are based on scripture, and I take scripture and build a logical explaination with the assistance of The Holy Spirit.
I feel The Holy Spirit within me stirred up, everytime I make these posts. Sometimes the wisdom I'm imparted with are too hard to put into words.
Is it the Holy Spirit you feel or your own bloated ego?I will answer in the words of Thomas Jefferson, “… I am a REAL CHRISTIAN, that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus, very different from the Platonists, who call ME infidel and THEMSELVES Christians and preachers of the Gospel, while they draw all their characteristic dogmas from what its author never said nor saw. They have compounded from the heathen mysteries a system beyond the comprehension of man, of which the great reformer of the vicious ethics and deism of the Jews, were he to return on earth, would not recognize one feature.”
Quote (princess of the king @ Aug. 16 2009,14:01) Quote So if Jesus came from The Father, he is NOT The Father, yet he is equally God for he is of the same Essence I have come from the father, i believe in the Son, I carry the same spirit………does not make me equal with Father.
Christ was begotten, no wonder he gave us warning about he would state to ones ” I do not know you”
think your smoke is coming from the pits of hell, there is nothing to clear up, its plain as day.
princess of theking! I can't figure out if you believe in a trinity or not. You don't make yourself clear. Am I right that you don't belief in a trinity doctrine. I sure hope so. Just the same I will give you some Scriptures if you do.First of all it is a man made doctrine. It was Quintinus Septimus Florence Tertullian who first came up with that doctrine. The first Christians did not keep it.
He was born in A.D. 155 to pagan Parents. He was educated in Theology and came up with that doctrine around A.D. 183.Math. 15:8 says this:” But in vain they worship me, preaching for doctrine the commandment of men.
A.D. 313
After almost three centuries of brutal persecution , the Roman emperor Constantine issued an edit, granting full freedom to practise their religion.And in A.D. 324 Constantine establishes Christianity as the official religion of his empire. It will become known as the Roman Universal Church. Even today they are called the Roman Catholic Church. He also issued an edit, forbidding work on Sunday and making it the day of worship. No more Sabbath Keeping aloud.
That is why the trinity is so wide spread. Also the Catholic Church forbid for anybody read the Bible or even to have one. If you did, you were tortured and killed. First the Roman did and then the Catholic Church did.
I will give you some Scriptures that I have proven that the trinity is false. I am rather tired tonight so please look them up yourself.
Deut. 4:35
Deut. 5:4
1Corinth. 8:4
Ephesians 4:6
by Jesus own word in
John 14:28…..my Father is greater then I.”Peace and Love Irene
Irene………it's more then the doctrine of the TRINITY that we are told to come out of , it is the doctrine of Preexistence, as well as the teachings of Devils and Demons also. Irene Jesus never preexisted his birth on earth , except in the plan and foreknowledge of God, Just ask yourself what good would it do to have an already (perfect) being come and walk among us (perfectly), what would that prove to us , seeing he really was not one of Us, by virtue of preexistence. The whole Point of Jesus' berth and life was to show us that an (ordinary) man could be perfected by GOD the FATHER and given eternal Life. Jesus was that man, our example one we can truly relate with in (EVERY) way. IMO
peace and love to you and Georg………………………..gene
Irene,
do hope you are well rested, and thank you for the scirpture reference, greatly appreciated.
the ones who preach the trinity doctrine are fruitless and their salt has no more use.
we are blessed and highly favored to hear our shepherd voice, and know he is calling us.
Quote (Gene @ Aug. 20 2009,03:22) Irene………it's more then the doctrine of the TRINITY that we are told to come out of , it is the doctrine of Preexistence, as well as the teachings of Devils and Demons also. Irene Jesus never preexisted his birth on earth , except in the plan and foreknowledge of God, Just ask yourself what good would it do to have an already (perfect) being come and walk among us (perfectly), what would that prove to us , seeing he really was not one of Us, by virtue of preexistence. The whole Point of Jesus' berth and life was to show us that an (ordinary) man could be perfected by GOD the FATHER and given eternal Life. Jesus was that man, our example one we can truly relate with in (EVERY) way. IMO peace and love to you and Georg………………………..gene
Gene If Jesus never preexisted His Birth, what are you doming with the Scriptures that state so?
Col. 1:15-17 He is the firstborn over all creation.verse 16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are3e in earth, visible our invisible……….
verse 18 And He is the head of the body the Church, who is the beginning the firstborn of the dead, that in all things He may have preeminence. Preeminence means before or first in all.
Rev. 3:14 …. These things says the Amen the Faithful and True Witness, the beginning of the creation of God.”
John 1:1 He is the Word that became flesh and dwelt among us. verse 14.
I know what you believe about the Word. Just like God is a title, so the Word is the Spoken Word of God. The reason is that nobody heard the Father or seen His frame. Either YEshua or an Angel spoke in the Old Testament time.John 17:5 by Jesus words who said:” And now O Father glorify Me together with Yourself with the glory I had with You before the world was,”
I have proven that to myself and IMO it is the truth.
Also coming out of the Catholic Church, I can tell you they have never believed in that. That is not a man made doctrine, like the trinity is. Our Heavenly Father is and always will be above all.
You said what would it prove if He would be a perfect being?
It says that Christ had God's Holy Spirit full strength. IMO He was not an ordinary man. An ordinary men would have sinned. Cause all have sinned according to John and the truth would not be in us. Christ know what was at stake if He sinned. God send His only begotten Son into the world to save the world, that through Him all might be saveth. He did not send His Son to condemn, but that through Him all might be saveth. Also it was Yeshua that was with the Father when He created all. Let us make man in our image. Do you know who that was. IMO it was Yeshua and the Father. It was the Son who said this.IMOSo were did God send His Son from? He was not divine when He walked this earth, but now has and can die no more.
1 also have proven this doctrine in
1 Thess. 5:21 states to prove all thins and I have.Peace and Love Irene
Irene…….Then we can never call Jesus our brother, because in your preexistence theology Jesus (really) was (Not) one of Us at all, just in appearance thats all. Irene the scriptures you quoted say nothing about Jesus Preexisting as a Being of any kind. Don't you think Jesus and the Apostles would have made that point absolutely clear. But Peter said He was (Foreordained) (BUT) was Manifested in OUR time. Why would not Peter have just said Jesus was a Preexisting Being of some Kind and was incarnated and died again for our sins if He really did Preexist. Every Scripture you gave can and has been explained by myself and others, Go and reread what Jodi has posted regarding the Preexistence of Jesus and please have an open Mind. Let the Spirit dispel the lie of Jesus' preexistence. There are many LIES Trinitarians Have created not Just The Trinity itself, But preexistence as well as doctrines about Devils and Demons. WE are told to come out of all these not just The Trinity. IMO
Peace and love to you and Georg………………..gene
Quote (Gene @ Aug. 21 2009,12:00) Irene…….Then we can never call Jesus our brother, because in your preexistence theology Jesus (really) was (Not) one of Us at all, just in appearance thats all. Irene the scriptures you quoted say nothing about Jesus Preexisting as a Being of any kind. Don't you think Jesus and the Apostles would have made that point absolutely clear. But Peter said He was (Foreordained) (BUT) was Manifested in OUR time. Why would not Peter have just said Jesus was a Preexisting Being of some Kind and was incarnated and died again for our sins if He really did Preexist. Every Scripture you gave can and has been explained by myself and others, Go and reread what Jodi has posted regarding the Preexistence of Jesus and please have an open Mind. Let the Spirit dispel the lie of Jesus' preexistence. There are many LIES Trinitarians Have created not Just The Trinity itself, But preexistence as well as doctrines about Devils and Demons. WE are told to come out of all these not just The Trinity. IMO Peace and love to you and Georg………………..gene
This is why I stopped posting here…
There is too much division amongst all of us.
This is why there are so many denominations of christianity, because we can't agree on the meaning of scripture.Even tho there is division amonsgt trinitarianism, and anti…there is now division amongst anti-trinis….with the pre-existence of Jesus.
It is extremely exhausting debating all of this.
It is said that God is not the God of confusion, but does it make sense at all that we'd be able to fully understrand him when he is a being too great to fathom?Gene would say is views and ideas are plain as day, yet never addresses the scripture that challenges his views.
Others like myself and Ciny would say the same.
The Bible clearly states Jesus pre-existed as a being, yet Gene would like to take that Idea and say God had the Idea of Jesus befoe creation.
Isn't our God so powerful that the thought of anything in his Mind immediately exists?
Wasn't this world created by a single uttered word, that is and will always be Jesus pre flesh?
Even though Cindy and I disagree on Jesus' divinity, I strongly agree and accept her views on his Pre-existence.
Plus Jesus did need to be our brother or relation to reconcile us to the Lord…that is why he was made flesh.
He did set an example that non could ever reach, but we are to strive for it.
The minute you sin for the first time, you are automatically less than Jesus.
No one starts off as a perfect christian, it takes wisdom, work and understanding.
So even tho gene would not like to think he pre-existed so that he may be a very close relation to us…the reality is thet EVERY MAN that ever and will ever walk on this earth will Sin….
Besides Jesus.
And because of that, he leads an example that we cannot 100% follow while on earth, but through faith we will be in it's glory after death.
If we could walk as perfect as Jesus, then his death was in vain…and doing so would be an act of works not faith…
God isn't impressed with works, for works are due…
If you don't believe me, read Job.
Jesus was our relation through flesh, but was perfect in the presence and spirit of The Father, this is how he reconciled us TO The Father.
His death was an example that, if a perfect righteous being can be condemned as a sinner in which he was not, then us being sinners can be rewarded as a saint in which we are now.
This was the miracle and love of God.
So yes Jesus did pre-exist and is credited with being the author of creation.
RM……….you have a right to your own views , But to say we don't deal with scripture is a false statement , in fact you have Yet to show (ONE) Scripture the (SPECIFICALLY) say Jesus was a Preexistence Being or diem-god or super being of some Kind. And neither has Irene produced any, only scripture the can be (Implied) that way, if a person has a preset belief system based on assumptions of what scriptures say preached by Trinitarians, Jesus was (FOREORDAINED) do you see (PREEXISTED) their (BUT) was (MANIFESTED) IN OUR TIME. NOW go figure what Peter meant and you will have your answer. Not to mention what point would that prove to Us if GOD took a already PERFECT Person and He walked Perfectly on EARTH . Just simple logic should tell you something. IMO
peace and love to you and yours……………………….gene
Quote (RokkaMan @ Aug. 14 2009,05:30) I get frustrated because all I see from Anti-Trinitarians is that they believe we think there are three Gods. Every post we make about trinitarianism, it gets refuted with the SAME scriptures where God says HE IS ONE, and there is no God before him.
Or we see posts where it shows ONLY GOD made the heavens and the earth.
CLEARING UP THE SMOKE
WE AGREEE WITH ALL OF THAT.
We agree that there is ONLY 1 God.
We agree ONLY God made the heavens and Earth.
WE AGREE that there is no OTHER God before God.
What don't you understand about that?
Our belief is that, The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit are 3 manifestations, or persons of THE ONE AND ONLY GOD.
Is God not powerful enough to give each manifestation His own will and identity?
Yet even when they are given their own will and identity, they always share The Father's will.
—————————————————Please stop trying to refute us with monotheism….why?
Because Trinitarians are Monotheists.
Would you say I am 3 Human Beings, or 1?
I am 1 Human Being, with 3 manifestations…The Spirit/Soul/and Flesh
God is 1 God with 3 manifestations….The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit.
IT IS ONE GOD.
Amen
Greetings R man……. Thank you for that enlightning critique…If what you have stated is true than why do some folks bless themselves in the Name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy ghost….The personage of God is one,the essense of God is spirit and he communicates through his word…They do so because Human beings cannot come to the Father alone, for sin is the canyon between God and Mankind.
We are to pray in The name of The Father, Son and Holy Spirit because…Jesus is our reconciliation to The Father.
When we accept and receive Jesus, we also receive the Holy Spirit to guide us in truth.
So when we pray in the 3 names, we are acknowledging our reconciliation with The Lord through his Son and The Spirit we are to receive from his Son.
It's still all One God, who sacrificed His Word and made His “Godly Word” become a lowly Human, to be our relation.
It was a statement that “I love you so much”…you won't just be my creation, you will now be my Kin. So Jesus, The Word of God…which isn't a creation of God, he is a function OF God…therefore Jesus is God above all creation.
Just like my ARM is a function of my human body…it allows me to grab things…My arm isn't ME, it is a function of me…yet it is apart of me, so in essense is equally human, but less than me because it is a part of me.
Jesus is equally God in essence, yet less for he is a function of the Lord.
God doesn't have children the way we do…he is a spirit…so his Son is going to ultimately come from his very own essence.
Quote (RokkaMan @ Aug. 27 2009,04:28) Plus Jesus did need to be our brother or relation to reconcile us to the Lord…that is why he was made flesh. He did set an example that non could ever reach, but we are to strive for it.
The minute you sin for the first time, you are automatically less than Jesus.
No one starts off as a perfect christian, it takes wisdom, work and understanding.
So even tho gene would not like to think he pre-existed so that he may be a very close relation to us…the reality is thet EVERY MAN that ever and will ever walk on this earth will Sin….
Besides Jesus.
And because of that, he leads an example that we cannot 100% follow while on earth, but through faith we will be in it's glory after death.
If we could walk as perfect as Jesus, then his death was in vain…and doing so would be an act of works not faith…
God isn't impressed with works, for works are due…
If you don't believe me, read Job.
Jesus was our relation through flesh, but was perfect in the presence and spirit of The Father, this is how he reconciled us TO The Father.
His death was an example that, if a perfect righteous being can be condemned as a sinner in which he was not, then us being sinners can be rewarded as a saint in which we are now.
This was the miracle and love of God.
So yes Jesus did pre-exist and is credited with being the author of creation.
NO, Jesus is absolutely NOT credited with being the author of creation. He is credited with being that which creation was made for, which was righteous men, of whom he is the first, being the firstborn from the dead.Here is your problem RokkaMan,
YHWH says specifically that He is going to bring forth a son of the seed of David, so obviously Jesus is NOT YHWH, he is the Son of YHWH. We are told throughout the OT that it was YHWH ALONE who created the heavens and the earth.
Neh 9: 6 You are YHWH, You alone. You have made the heavens, the heavens of the heavens, with all their hosts, the earth and all that are on it, the seas and all that are in them, and You give life to them all.
Psalms 115:15 You are blessed by YHWH, Who made the heavens and earth
Psalms 121:2 My help comes from YHWH, Maker of the heavens and earth.
Pslams 124:8 Our help is in the Name of YHWH, Maker of the heavens and earth,
Psalms 134:3 YHWH Maker of the heavens and earth,
Psalms 146:5-6 Whose expectancy is in YHWH his Elohim, Maker of the heavens and earth, the sea and all that is in them,
Isaiah 37:16 O YHWH of hosts, Elohim of Yisrael, the One who dwells between the kerubim, You are Elohim, You alone, of all the reigns of the earth. You have made the heavens and earth.
Jeremiah 51:14-15 YHWH of hosts has sworn by Himself, “I shall certainly fill you with men, as with locusts, and they shall lift up a shout against you.” He made the earth by His power, He established the world by His wisdom, and stretched out the heavens by His understanding.
And here in Psalms it shows again that the heavens and earth are the work of YHWH's hands,
Psalms 102:12 And Thou, O Jehovah, to the age abidest, And Thy memorial to all generations. 13 Thou — Thou risest — Thou pitiest Zion, For the time to favour her, For the appointed time hath come. 14 For Thy servants have been pleased with her stones, And her dust they favour. 15 And nations fear the name of Jehovah, And all kings of the earth Thine honour, 16 For Jehovah hath builded Zion, He hath been seen in His honour, 17 He turned unto the prayer of the destitute, And He hath not despised their prayer. 18 This is written for a later generation, And the people created do praise Jah. 19 For He hath looked From the high place of His sanctuary. Jehovah from heaven unto earth looked attentively, 20 To hear the groan of the prisoner, To loose sons of death, 21 To declare in Zion the name of Jehovah, And His praise in Jerusalem, 22 In the peoples being gathered together, And the kingdoms — to serve Jehovah. 23 He hath humbled in the way my power, He hath shortened my days. 24 I say, `My God, take me not up in the midst of my days,' Through all generations [are] Thine years. 25 Beforetime the earth Thou didst found, And the work of Thy hands are the heavens. 26 They — They perish, and Thou remainest, And all of them as a garment become old, As clothing Thou changest them, And they are changed. 27 And Thou art the same, and Thine years are not finished.
The end of this Psalm is what is said in Hebrews 1,
Hebrews 1:10 and, `Thou, at the beginning, Lord, the earth didst found, and a work of thy hands are the heavens; 11 these shall perish, and Thou dost remain, and all, as a garment, shall become old, 12 and as a mantle Thou shall roll them together, and they shall be changed, and Thou art the same, and Thy years shall not fail.' 13 And unto which of the messengers said He ever, `Sit at My right hand, till I may make thine enemies thy footstool?'
VERSE 10-13 is speaking of YHWH!! It makes no sense to believe that those verses are speaking of Jesus, when they are clearly attributed to YHWH in Psalms. YHWH does not change, but Jesus certainly did, he went from first the natural and then the spiritual. He went from corruptible to incorruptible. He went from death to eternal life.
We are also shown in the NT that it was the Father that created the heavens and the earth, not Jesus,
Acts 4:23 And being let go, they went to their own companions and reported all that the chief priests and elders had said to them. 24 So when they heard that, they raised their voice to God with one accord and said: “Lord, You are God, who made heaven and earth and the sea, and all that is in them, 25 who by the mouth of Your servant David have said: 'Why did the nations rage, And the people plot vain things? 26 The kings of the earth took their stand, And the rulers were gathered together Against the Lord and against His Christ.' 27 “For truly against Your holy Servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the people of Israel, were gathered together 28 to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose determined before to be done.
Acts 17:23 for as I was passing through and considering the objects of your worship, I even found an altar with this inscription: TO THE UNKNOWN GOD. Therefore, the One whom you worship without knowing, Him I proclaim to you: 24 God, who made the world and everything in it, since He is Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in temples made with hands. 25 Nor is He worshiped with men's hands, as though He needed anything, since He gives to all life, breath, and all things. 26 And He has made from one blood every nation of men to dwell on all the face of the earth, and has determined their preappointed times and the boundaries of their dwellings, 27 so that they should seek the Lord, in the hope that they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us; 28 for in Him we live and move and have our being, as also some of your own poets have said, 'For we are also His offspring.' 29 Therefore, since we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Divine Nature is like gold or silver or stone, something shaped by art and man's devising. 30 Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent, 31 because He has appointed a day on which He will judge the world in righteousness by the Man whom He has ordained. He has given assurance of this to all by raising Him from the dead.”
Quote (Jodi Lee @ Aug. 27 2009,04:52) Quote (RokkaMan @ Aug. 27 2009,04:28) Plus Jesus did need to be our brother or relation to reconcile us to the Lord…that is why he was made flesh. He did set an example that non could ever reach, but we are to strive for it.
The minute you sin for the first time, you are automatically less than Jesus.
No one starts off as a perfect christian, it takes wisdom, work and understanding.
So even tho gene would not like to think he pre-existed so that he may be a very close relation to us…the reality is thet EVERY MAN that ever and will ever walk on this earth will Sin….
Besides Jesus.
And because of that, he leads an example that we cannot 100% follow while on earth, but through faith we will be in it's glory after death.
If we could walk as perfect as Jesus, then his death was in vain…and doing so would be an act of works not faith…
God isn't impressed with works, for works are due…
If you don't believe me, read Job.
Jesus was our relation through flesh, but was perfect in the presence and spirit of The Father, this is how he reconciled us TO The Father.
His death was an example that, if a perfect righteous being can be condemned as a sinner in which he was not, then us being sinners can be rewarded as a saint in which we are now.
This was the miracle and love of God.
So yes Jesus did pre-exist and is credited with being the author of creation.
NO, Jesus is absolutely NOT credited with being the author of creation. He is credited with being that which creation was made for, which was righteous men, of whom he is the first, being the firstborn from the dead.Here is your problem RokkaMan,
YHWH says specifically that He is going to bring forth a son of the seed of David, so obviously Jesus is NOT YHWH, he is the Son of YHWH. We are told throughout the OT that it was YHWH ALONE who created the heavens and the earth.
Neh 9: 6 You are YHWH, You alone. You have made the heavens, the heavens of the heavens, with all their hosts, the earth and all that are on it, the seas and all that are in them, and You give life to them all.
Psalms 115:15 You are blessed by YHWH, Who made the heavens and earth
Psalms 121:2 My help comes from YHWH, Maker of the heavens and earth.
Pslams 124:8 Our help is in the Name of YHWH, Maker of the heavens and earth,
Psalms 134:3 YHWH Maker of the heavens and earth,
Psalms 146:5-6 Whose expectancy is in YHWH his Elohim, Maker of the heavens and earth, the sea and all that is in them,
Isaiah 37:16 O YHWH of hosts, Elohim of Yisrael, the One who dwells between the kerubim, You are Elohim, You alone, of all the reigns of the earth. You have made the heavens and earth.
Jeremiah 51:14-15 YHWH of hosts has sworn by Himself, “I shall certainly fill you with men, as with locusts, and they shall lift up a shout against you.” He made the earth by His power, He established the world by His wisdom, and stretched out the heavens by His understanding.
And here in Psalms it shows again that the heavens and earth are the work of YHWH's hands,
Psalms 102:12 And Thou, O Jehovah, to the age abidest, And Thy memorial to all generations. 13 Thou — Thou risest — Thou pitiest Zion, For the time to favour her, For the appointed time hath come. 14 For Thy servants have been pleased with her stones, And her dust they favour. 15 And nations fear the name of Jehovah, And all kings of the earth Thine honour, 16 For Jehovah hath builded Zion, He hath been seen in His honour, 17 He turned unto the prayer of the destitute, And He hath not despised their prayer. 18 This is written for a later generation, And the people created do praise Jah. 19 For He hath looked From the high place of His sanctuary. Jehovah from heaven unto earth looked attentively, 20 To hear the groan of the prisoner, To loose sons of death, 21 To declare in Zion the name of Jehovah, And His praise in Jerusalem, 22 In the peoples being gathered together, And the kingdoms — to serve Jehovah. 23 He hath humbled in the way my power, He hath shortened my days. 24 I say, `My God, take me not up in the midst of my days,' Through all generations [are] Thine years. 25 Beforetime the earth Thou didst found, And the work of Thy hands are the heavens. 26 They — They perish, and Thou remainest, And all of them as a garment become old, As clothing Thou changest them, And they are changed. 27 And Thou art the same, and Thine years are not finished.
The end of this Psalm is what is said in Hebrews 1,
Hebrews 1:10 and, `Thou, at the beginning, Lord, the earth didst found, and a work of thy hands are the heavens; 11 these shall perish, and Thou dost remain, and all, as a garment, shall become old, 12 and as a mantle Thou shall roll them together, and they shall be changed, and Thou art the same, and Thy years shall not fail.' 13 And unto which of the messengers said He ever, `Sit at My right hand, till I may make thine enemies thy footstool?'
VERSE 10-13 is speaking of YHWH!! It makes no sense to believe that those verses are speaking of Jesus, when they are clearly attributed to YHWH in Psalms. YHWH does not change, but Jesus certainly did, he went from first the natural and then the spiritual. He went from corruptible to incorruptible. He went from death to eternal life.
We are also shown in the NT that it was the Father that created the heavens and the earth, not Jesus,
Acts 4:23 And being let go, they went to their own companions and reported all that the chief priests and elders had said to them. 24 So when they heard that, they raised their voice to God with one accord and said: “Lord, You are God, who made heaven and earth and the sea, and all that is in them, 25 who by the mouth of Your servant David have said: 'Why did the nations rage, And the people plot vain things? 26 The kings of the earth took their stand, And the rulers were gathered together Against the Lord and against His Christ.' 27 “For truly against Your holy Servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the people of Israel, were gathered together 28 to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose determined before to be done.
Acts 17:23 for as I was passing through and considering the objects of your worship, I even found an altar with this inscription: TO THE UNKNOWN GOD. Therefore, the One whom you worship without knowing, Him I proclaim to you: 24 God, who made the world and everything in it, since He is Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in temples made with hands. 25 Nor is He worshiped with men's hands, as though He needed anything, since He gives to all life, breath, and all things. 26 And He has made from one blood every nation of men to dwell on all the face of the earth, and has determined their preappointed times and the boundaries of their dwellings, 27 so that they should seek the Lord, in the hope that they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us; 28 for in Him we live and move and have our being, as also some of your own poets have said, 'For we are also His offspring.' 29 Therefore, since we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Divine Nature is like gold or silver or stone, something shaped by art and man's devising. 30 Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhe
re to repent, 31 because He has appointed a day on which He will judge the world in righteousness by the Man whom He has ordained. He has given assurance of this to all by raising Him from the dead.”
No jesus is not credited with being the author of creation?
I'm sorry Cindy THAT IS JUST NOT BIBLICAL…how dare you lie against The Holy BibleHebrews 1:8
“Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever,
and righteousness will be the scepter of your kingdom.
9You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness;
therefore God, your God, has set you above your companions
by anointing you with the oil of joy.”[f] 10He also says,
“In the beginning, O Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth,
and the heavens are the work of your hands.And yes if you read the whole chapter, This is The Father speaking to The Son
Sorry that was pulled from the NIV< I only like pulling from the KJ version…here it is again…explained even more thoroughly
Hebrews 1
8But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.9Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
10And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:
The Father gave credit to The Son for creation, yet he says Him alone created the Heavens and The earth in Job and various other places.
Either God is a Liar, which is blasphemy and therefore makes him not God, or this can only be reconciled with trinitarianism.
RokkaMAN you have a serious problem, as I mentioned earlier.
You put the entire bible in jeopardy! The bible repeatedly shows that YHWH created the heavens and the earth and YHWH is clearly shown to be the Father of Jesus, NOT Jesus. It is very interesting to me as to how you can call me a liar to the Holy bible, but yet your the one creating the lies. You take one passage and create it to mean something that it does not and in doing so you make several other passage out to be lies. You say, from interpreting one passage wrong, that Jesus is the Creator, however many scriptures say it was his Father who created it. So are the other passages LIES?
The entire chapter is NOT written as you said, “if you read the whole chapter, This is The Father speaking to The Son”
The chapter is the author teaching about both the Father and the Son, and it includes quotes from the Father about Jesus and messengers.
Hebrews 1:1 God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, 2 has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds;
Jesus was NOT YHWH who spoke to the Father's he was yet to be created for he was foreordained at the beginning of creation but he was not yet manifested until he was born of Mary, then when he grew up he then became the spokesperson for God, speaking to us the words of YHWH. God made the world through Jesus. God made the world through the foreknowledge of Christ, whom God would make for us as a savior.
3 who being the brightness of His glory and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power, when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, 4 having become so much better than the angels, as He has by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they. 5 For to which of the angels did He ever say: “You are My Son, Today I have begotten You”? And again: “I will be to Him a Father, And He shall be to Me a Son”? 6 But when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says: “Let all the angels of God worship Him.” 7 And of the angels He says: “Who makes His angels spirits And His ministers a flame of fire.” 8 But to the Son He says: “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom. 9 You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness; Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You With the oil of gladness more than Your companions.”
Verse 10 is where God is no longer talking about Jesus, but the author is speaking of YHWH. A person not ignorant of the scriptures from the OT, would clearly KNOW this because THEY FULLY KNEW that it was YHWH who created the heavens and the earth. Picture yourself as a Hebrew in the time this book was written RokkMan, you’re a Hebrew who has been taught that YHWH created the heavens and the earth, and YHWH promised to one day bring up a savior from the seed of David. The second you hear, “You Lord, in the beginning laid down the foundation….,” You would automatically KNOW the author at that point is speaking of the Father.
10 And: “You, Lord, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth, And the heavens are the work of Your hands. 11 They will perish, but You remain; And they will all grow old like a garment; 12 Like a cloak You will fold them up, And they will be changed. But You are the same, And Your years will not fail.”
YHWH does not change, NEITHER do His PROMISES! People perish, but YHWH always remains. YHWH the Father changed Jesus from being dead to being alive, He changed him from being dead to being immortal. Clearly verse 10 to 12 is speaking of YHWH.
13 But to which of the angels has He ever said: “Sit at My right hand, Till I make Your enemies Your footstool”? 14 Are they not all ministering spirits sent forth to minister for those who will inherit salvation?
Jesus is not the YHWH, of who was clearly known to the Hebrews as their creator, Jesus was the promised Messiah that was to sit at the right hand of YHWH.
Ps 110:1 A Psalm of David. The Lord said to my Lord, “Sit at My right hand, Till I make Your enemies Your footstool.”
Hi Sis Jodi,
Those are wonderful posts on negating the trinitarians belief on Jesus as creator and God. I too accept your arguments. Heb 1:10 is not about Jesus but about one and only crwator God the father.
Thanks and love to you
Adam
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