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I get frustrated because all I see from Anti-Trinitarians is that they believe we think there are three Gods.
Every post we make about trinitarianism, it gets refuted with the SAME scriptures where God says HE IS ONE, and there is no God before him.
Or we see posts where it shows ONLY GOD made the heavens and the earth.
CLEARING UP THE SMOKE
WE AGREEE WITH ALL OF THAT.
We agree that there is ONLY 1 God.
We agree ONLY God made the heavens and Earth.
WE AGREE that there is no OTHER God before God.
What don't you understand about that?
Our belief is that, The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit are 3 manifestations, or persons of THE ONE AND ONLY GOD.
Is God not powerful enough to give each manifestation His own will and identity?
Yet even when they are given their own will and identity, they always share The Father's will.
—————————————————Please stop trying to refute us with monotheism….why?
Because Trinitarians are Monotheists.
Would you say I am 3 Human Beings, or 1?
I am 1 Human Being, with 3 manifestations…The Spirit/Soul/and Flesh
God is 1 God with 3 manifestations….The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit.
IT IS ONE GOD.
Amen
So what you say is that Jesus is the physical (in human form) manifestation of the Godhead equal in power and authority to Father and Holy Ghost, as obviously they are all facets of the same being in your view. I assume here that in your view Jesus is not an avatar of the almighty or a demigod human/god hybrid but in God himself taking upon himself fully the mantle of humankind.
Why this is illogical:
The limitless can not be limited, it is paradoxical, God could not be fully Almighty as a human.
If Jesus was God how could he be tempted, have gaps in knowledge, have need of baptisim or could any gaze upon his countenance? What would his example be to the rest of us who are not divine? No, it make little sense. While personally I think Jesus was human and only human you would make a more convincing argument for the divinity of Jesus if you described him as an avatar of the Almighty, like Krishna was for Vishnu in the Hindu religion, for then as an avatar or limited aspect of the divine you would not have the same logical conflicts in your argument. At any rate making Jesus divine takes away from his greatness rather then magnifies it in my mind. For if Jesus was God his accomplishments are trivial if he was only man like the rest of us his accomplishments are monumental. I would find it hard to follow the footsteps of a god, but those of a man, well that is something I can aspire to. Perhaps Jesus was sent not as sacrifice for sins but as teacher to show us how not to sin?Quote (RokkaMan @ Aug. 14 2009,05:30) I get frustrated because all I see from Anti-Trinitarians is that they believe we think there are three Gods. Every post we make about trinitarianism, it gets refuted with the SAME scriptures where God says HE IS ONE, and there is no God before him.
Or we see posts where it shows ONLY GOD made the heavens and the earth.
CLEARING UP THE SMOKE
WE AGREEE WITH ALL OF THAT.
We agree that there is ONLY 1 God.
We agree ONLY God made the heavens and Earth.
WE AGREE that there is no OTHER God before God.
What don't you understand about that?
Our belief is that, The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit are 3 manifestations, or persons of THE ONE AND ONLY GOD.
Is God not powerful enough to give each manifestation His own will and identity?
Yet even when they are given their own will and identity, they always share The Father's will.
—————————————————Please stop trying to refute us with monotheism….why?
Because Trinitarians are Monotheists.
Would you say I am 3 Human Beings, or 1?
I am 1 Human Being, with 3 manifestations…The Spirit/Soul/and Flesh
God is 1 God with 3 manifestations….The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit.
IT IS ONE GOD.
Amen
Now we belonged to the Catholic Church from Birth until my Husband was 47 and I was 46. I taught our 4 Children the Doctrine of the Trinity. They are 3in1 and all are equal. Also the Holy Spirit is a Person, which is not so. There are some good Scriptures that say that it is the Spirit of the Father.
I also think that you are just making to much of what the Ant-Trinitarian are saying. Coming out of that Church we proved that doctrine wrong. Even by Jesus own words He said that My Father is greater than I.
John 14:28
Ephesians 4:6
….one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all,
and in us all.”
Those Scriptures and about One True God without attachment.
Also it says in Genesis LET US MAKE MAN IN OUR IMAGE.
It was the Word that was with God the Father in the beginning. And yes I can prove that too.
Rev.2:14
Col.1:15-17
John 1:1
Verse 14 shows us that He became flesh and dwelt among us.
Peace and Love IreneQuote (Cato @ Aug. 14 2009,06:14) So what you say is that Jesus is the physical (in human form) manifestation of the Godhead equal in power and authority to Father and Holy Ghost, as obviously they are all facets of the same being in your view. I assume here that in your view Jesus is not an avatar of the almighty or a demigod human/god hybrid but in God himself taking upon himself fully the mantle of humankind. Why this is illogical:
The limitless can not be limited, it is paradoxical, God could not be fully Almighty as a human.
If Jesus was God how could he be tempted, have gaps in knowledge, have need of baptisim or could any gaze upon his countenance? What would his example be to the rest of us who are not divine? No, it make little sense. While personally I think Jesus was human and only human you would make a more convincing argument for the divinity of Jesus if you described him as an avatar of the Almighty, like Krishna was for Vishnu in the Hindu religion, for then as an avatar or limited aspect of the divine you would not have the same logical conflicts in your argument. At any rate making Jesus divine takes away from his greatness rather then magnifies it in my mind. For if Jesus was God his accomplishments are trivial if he was only man like the rest of us his accomplishments are monumental. I would find it hard to follow the footsteps of a god, but those of a man, well that is something I can aspire to. Perhaps Jesus was sent not as sacrifice for sins but as teacher to show us how not to sin?
Ok and again I was taken incorrectly.As I have said, Jesus and the Holy Spirit are equal in ESSENCE, but LESS in Authority.
Please do not put words in my mouth, I never said they were equal in authority.
And the infinite can be temporarily finite. Isn't that the nature of the Human spirit bound to a temporary Body? And after we die, we are liberated from the Body to live in spirit?
The Infinite Son who has always been with the father, “HUMBLED” himself to be bound to a finite body and experience life as a human.
This was the monumental aspect of Jesus, not the fact that he performed wonders and never sinned.
We are to follow the footsteps in faith and repentance, not complete abolishment of sin for the blemish of sin that is already on your soul cannot be forgiven.
To not sin at all would be a work of works, not a work of faith. The only thing that we can offer God is faith and trust so no your idea that Jesus was hear to teach us not to since would be blasphemy.
How dare you say “Perhaps Jesus was sent not as sacrifice for sins”
Man is born a sinner for the sins of the father are passed down to the child. Our world is a product of Adam's fall.
Jesus is that reconciliation.
Is monumental feat was being equal in God, tho less in Authority…Humbled his honored position of being creator of the cosmos, to be a mere Man on earth.
Being Man in Flesh, God in spirit..he never sinned, but was accussed and condemned for the sins of the world…This act was the monumental perfect sacrifice that reveals his Identity.
I would love to follow the footsteps of a God, not a man.
Why follow the creation when you can follow the creator.
(In reference to man, not God….I am not referring Jesus who is God made flesh)BTW Cato, EVERYTHING a human can understand ABOUT GOD is paradoxical.
Go research the definition of a paradox.
2 seemingly contradictions that reveal a nonetheless “Truth”
So when you say an infinite being cannot be made finite…you are right…it is a paradox….but in that, it is truth
And Again Cato,
Addressing your questions which mine are never addressed,
“If Jesus was God how could he be tempted, have gaps in knowledge, have need of baptisim or could any gaze upon his countenance? What would his example be to the rest of us who are not divine? No, it make little sense.”
If I tempt you to sleep with a woman, and you refuse…It means I tempted you but failed to get you to commit the sin.
So when Jesus was tempted…it means the Devil attempted (hence the word attempt) to tempt him, but failed. And ironic how Jesus's reply was “Thou shall not tempt the Lord your God”
He had gaps in his knowledge for with Authority comes knowledge. If I agree that Jesus is less than The Father in Authority…then doesn't that mean he has less knowledge than the Father?
If I rip my arm off, and my arm had it's own identity. My arm came from me, so it's still ME yet it doesn't have the knowledge or senses of other parts of me.
So if Jesus came from The Father, he is NOT The Father, yet he is equally God for he is of the same Essence.
Since he is NOT The Father, he does not possess all things…this is why all things had to be Given.And he required baptism for his examples as a “Man” were required to pave the pathway for all men to follow.
This baptism that began his ministries was the beginning of the “New Covenant with Man” and was completed with Jesus' Death and Ressurection.
Amen…that should answer all your questions, and if you have more…feel free to ask.
RM………why would GOd take an already perfect being and disguised Him as a (real) man and tell us this Perfect (disguised) man was like us and expect us to walk and come to the full measure of the preexisting Perfect Being who may have walked perfectly for millions of years , So what would be the big deal if He were to walk perfect while he was on earth , what's that got to do with us or Him identifying with Us, (NOTHING). CATO is right in what He said. You have fallen for the TRINITARIAN DELUSION Jesus is (NOT) a GOD NOW and NEVER was and NEVER will BE A GOD, That is the LIE spoken of in 2 Ths 2, read it for yourself. God was (IN) Jesus just as He can BE in ALL and THROUGH ALL, but that doesn't make Us a GOD nor Does It make Jesus a GOD either. IMO
peacve and love……………………..gene
Hi RM:
I fail to understand why there has to be such a thing as the “trinity doctrine” when there are unambiguous scriptures that tell us that Jesus is the Christ the Son of the Living God(Matt. 16:13-17), and that the Holy Spirit is God's Spirit (1 Co. 2:10).
This(the trinity) is a man made doctrine based on someone trying to understand the scriptures, and the church has made it doctrine that they say is a fact.
God is not the author of confusion.
Love in Christ,
MartyQuote (RokkaMan @ Aug. 14 2009,06:48) And the infinite can be temporarily finite. Isn't that the nature of the Human spirit bound to a temporary Body? And after we die, we are liberated from the Body to live in spirit? The Infinite Son who has always been with the father, “HUMBLED” himself to be bound to a finite body and experience life as a human.
This was the monumental aspect of Jesus, not the fact that he performed wonders and never sinned.
We are to follow the footsteps in faith and repentance, not complete abolishment of sin for the blemish of sin that is already on your soul cannot be forgiven.
To not sin at all would be a work of works, not a work of faith. The only thing that we can offer God is faith and trust so no your idea that Jesus was hear to teach us not to since would be blasphemy.
How dare you say “Perhaps Jesus was sent not as sacrifice for sins”
Man is born a sinner for the sins of the father are passed down to the child. Our world is a product of Adam's fall.
Jesus is that reconciliation.
Is monumental feat was being equal in God, tho less in Authority…Humbled his honored position of being creator of the cosmos, to be a mere Man on earth.
Being Man in Flesh, God in spirit..he never sinned, but was accussed and condemned for the sins of the world…This act was the monumental perfect sacrifice that reveals his Identity.
I would love to follow the footsteps of a God, not a man.
Why follow the creation when you can follow the creator.
(In reference to man, not God….I am not referring Jesus who is God made flesh)
You make errors in logic. The infinite can not be finite for it is a contradiction. A human immortal spirit is still immortal even when housed in mortal flesh, the spirit is not changed, just given a vehicle to interact upon the physical plane.Two if God's spirit or essence inhabited a human body (which I find unlikely as I think no human body could contain such power) then what is monumental about wonders or not sinning? If God can create the universe what is the big deal about water into wine or not sinning? For a mere human however this would indeed be monumental.
I see no blasphemy in suggesting that Jesus is the great teacher and the example for humanity and not a sacrificial lamb. I do not buy the sins of the father are passed to the son unless this is allegory for reincarnation, which would then make sense as we would be responsible for our own sins.
Equal to God but less in authority? This makes no sense what so ever. Is this all the same God or not? If they are all aspects of the same being and equal why would one be less in authority?
Why follow the creation? Simple because the Creator himself is too far above us, he is beyond our comprehension so we can only know of him through creation.
Quote (942767 @ Aug. 14 2009,09:13) Hi RM: I fail to understand why there has to be such a thing as the “trinity doctrine” when there are unambiguous scriptures that tell us that Jesus is the Christ the Son of the Living God(Matt. 16:13-17), and that the Holy Spirit is God's Spirit (1 Co. 2:10).
This(the trinity) is a man made doctrine based on someone trying to understand the scriptures, and the church has made it doctrine that they say is a fact.
God is not the author of confusion.
Love in Christ,
Marty
942767…….There is no logic in the TRINITY, thats why GOD has to send to them a deluding Spirit (intellect) even for (THEM) to believe the LIE. 2Ths 2.peace and love to you and yours……………………gene
Quote (Gene @ Aug. 14 2009,11:39) Quote (942767 @ Aug. 14 2009,09:13) Hi RM: I fail to understand why there has to be such a thing as the “trinity doctrine” when there are unambiguous scriptures that tell us that Jesus is the Christ the Son of the Living God(Matt. 16:13-17), and that the Holy Spirit is God's Spirit (1 Co. 2:10).
This(the trinity) is a man made doctrine based on someone trying to understand the scriptures, and the church has made it doctrine that they say is a fact.
God is not the author of confusion.
Love in Christ,
Marty
942767…….There is no logic in the TRINITY, thats why GOD has to send to them a deluding Spirit (intellect) even for (THEM) to believe the LIE. 2Ths 2.peace and love to you and yours……………………gene
Hi Gene:2 Thes 2 is another matter, but now, God is calling His people out of Babylonia which is the confusion caused by these false doctrines.
Love in Christ,
MartyQuote (Gene @ Aug. 14 2009,08:37) RM………why would GOd take an already perfect being and disguised Him as a (real) man and tell us this Perfect (disguised) man was like us and expect us to walk and come to the full measure of the preexisting Perfect Being who may have walked perfectly for millions of years , So what would be the big deal if He were to walk perfect while he was on earth , what's that got to do with us or Him identifying with Us, (NOTHING). CATO is right in what He said. You have fallen for the TRINITARIAN DELUSION Jesus is (NOT) a GOD NOW and NEVER was and NEVER will BE A GOD, That is the LIE spoken of in 2 Ths 2, read it for yourself. God was (IN) Jesus just as He can BE in ALL and THROUGH ALL, but that doesn't make Us a GOD nor Does It make Jesus a GOD either. IMO peacve and love……………………..gene
RM………why would GOd take an already perfect being and disguised Him as a (real) man and tell us this Perfect (disguised) man was like us and expect us to walk and come to the full measure of the preexisting Perfect Being who may have walked perfectly for millions of years , So what would be the big deal if He were to walk perfect while he was on earth , what's that got to do with us or Him identifying with Us,Because this perfect being was condemned on the cross and given the fate of an imperfect being, so that us as imperfect beings are given the gift of the fate of a perfect righteous being.
He created a pathway for us to be reconciled to the Lord.
This was the Monumental act.Why did he do it? Because God loves us.
Reason he was made a man and not a dog or elephant or cat…was because he was reconciling mankind. The reason he walked perfectly is so that we can believe he was God made flesh, for no ordinary man, is capable of a perfectly righteous path…as was Jesus.
Quote (942767 @ Aug. 14 2009,09:13) Hi RM: I fail to understand why there has to be such a thing as the “trinity doctrine” when there are unambiguous scriptures that tell us that Jesus is the Christ the Son of the Living God(Matt. 16:13-17), and that the Holy Spirit is God's Spirit (1 Co. 2:10).
This(the trinity) is a man made doctrine based on someone trying to understand the scriptures, and the church has made it doctrine that they say is a fact.
God is not the author of confusion.
Love in Christ,
Marty
Well if the Holy Spirit is God's spirit, and you admit that…then where is the arguement?No one ever said the Holy Spirit was a separate God…trinitarians believe the Holy Spirit IS GOD?
My arm is my arm, just like my leg is my leg…It is a part of me? So it is of Me…it is not a separate being.
So if the Holy Spirit is God's spirit, it is a part of God.
Just like Jesus is a part of God.
And like my arm or leg, they can only do what I tell them to do. Just like The Son and Spirit can only do what the Father tells them to do.
Where is the disagreement? And how don't you understand?
Quote (Cato @ Aug. 14 2009,11:02) Quote (RokkaMan @ Aug. 14 2009,06:48) And the infinite can be temporarily finite. Isn't that the nature of the Human spirit bound to a temporary Body? And after we die, we are liberated from the Body to live in spirit? The Infinite Son who has always been with the father, “HUMBLED” himself to be bound to a finite body and experience life as a human.
This was the monumental aspect of Jesus, not the fact that he performed wonders and never sinned.
We are to follow the footsteps in faith and repentance, not complete abolishment of sin for the blemish of sin that is already on your soul cannot be forgiven.
To not sin at all would be a work of works, not a work of faith. The only thing that we can offer God is faith and trust so no your idea that Jesus was hear to teach us not to since would be blasphemy.
How dare you say “Perhaps Jesus was sent not as sacrifice for sins”
Man is born a sinner for the sins of the father are passed down to the child. Our world is a product of Adam's fall.
Jesus is that reconciliation.
Is monumental feat was being equal in God, tho less in Authority…Humbled his honored position of being creator of the cosmos, to be a mere Man on earth.
Being Man in Flesh, God in spirit..he never sinned, but was accussed and condemned for the sins of the world…This act was the monumental perfect sacrifice that reveals his Identity.
I would love to follow the footsteps of a God, not a man.
Why follow the creation when you can follow the creator.
(In reference to man, not God….I am not referring Jesus who is God made flesh)
You make errors in logic. The infinite can not be finite for it is a contradiction. A human immortal spirit is still immortal even when housed in mortal flesh, the spirit is not changed, just given a vehicle to interact upon the physical plane.Two if God's spirit or essence inhabited a human body (which I find unlikely as I think no human body could contain such power) then what is monumental about wonders or not sinning? If God can create the universe what is the big deal about water into wine or not sinning? For a mere human however this would indeed be monumental.
I see no blasphemy in suggesting that Jesus is the great teacher and the example for humanity and not a sacrificial lamb. I do not buy the sins of the father are passed to the son unless this is allegory for reincarnation, which would then make sense as we would be responsible for our own sins.
Equal to God but less in authority? This makes no sense what so ever. Is this all the same God or not? If they are all aspects of the same being and equal why would one be less in authority?
Why follow the creation? Simple because the Creator himself is too far above us, he is beyond our comprehension so we can only know of him through creation.
Wow Cato, your logic is extremely far fetch'd. And not well thought out.You make errors in logic. The infinite can not be finite for it is a contradiction. A human immortal spirit is still immortal even when housed in mortal flesh, the spirit is not changed, just given a vehicle to interact upon the physical plane.
Isn't the infinite cannot be finite…
The same logic as
The Immortal cannot be mortal?Yet you say the infinite cannot be finite, while the immortal can be mortal? lol
That is a terrible analogy where you answered the error of your own logic.
If you agree that the immortal can be made mortal through a vessel that is shed. So too can the infinite be made finite through a vessel that can be shed
Why is this logically?
BECAUSE THE INFINITE WAS NEVER MADE INFINITE, nor was THE IMMORTAL EVER MADE MORTAL
If my soul is immortal, when I join a Body…my soul doesn't become mortal, I am just an immortal being BOUND to a temporary mortal Body….
Just like the infinite being is never made finite, he humbled himself to be bound to a finite body….
Two if God's spirit or essence inhabited a human body (which I find unlikely as I think no human body could contain such power) then what is monumental about wonders or not sinning? If God can create the universe what is the big deal about water into wine or not sinning? For a mere human however this would indeed be monumental.
Because for a seemingly Human being to perform these miracles would be a testimony that this Human Being is not ordinary. Since everyone cannot do these these things, it would cause for you ro pay attention to this being.
So no the miracles were not monumental in the sense that a God performed them…so of course it should be expected of a God.
And that is the claim we are making Jesus was God made flesh.
Other prophets heal'd the sick and cast out demons…But they did so through prayer and rituals.
Only Jesus did everything on command. He didn't need to burn fish eggs (not sure if that was th exact formula) to cast demons out as they did in the OT…he only had to command the demons. When christians cast demons out now, we only have to call on Jesus' Name.
This was unique from all other Bible prophets and miracle workers. Who else do you know walked on water?
Face it, there is a unique fingerprint to Jesus above all other prophets…which is why we believe he was God made man.
So the monumental act wasn't that he performed miracles…these were done so that the people would believe in him. The monumental act was that he as a God was condemned on earth as a sinning human…
This monumental act shows how much God loves us as his children…it is unfathomable.
God basically shamed his forever worthy eternal Glory as the creator…….for us.
How can you not see the Monumental significance? Amen.
I see no blasphemy in suggesting that Jesus is the great teacher and the example for humanity and not a sacrificial lamb.
Then you neither see scripture, for even anti-trinitarians are in agreement that Jesus is the sacrificial lamb…and so you set yourself apart from not just trinitarians but all christianity.
I do not buy the sins of the father are passed to the son unless this is allegory for reincarnation, which would then make sense as we would be responsible for our own sins.
Who cares what you think now? You're not even a christian.
Equal to God but less in authority? This makes no sense what so ever. Is this all the same God or not? If they are all aspects of the same being and equal why would one be less in authority?
Again, who cares what you think….
but to answer it for anti-trinitarians who may want to know this answer….
God cannot create a being equal to himself…for he would not be God.
Yet God is unknowable to creation. Creation must be made perfect to know The Father. So as God used avatars to communicate in the OT…and avatar would not be good enough to reconcile an imperfect being to the perfect God.
Only a Perfect being could reconcile imperfection back to perfection.
How was Jesus as perfect as the Father yet not as pefect as the father (here comes a paradox…)
He is equal in essence for he came forth from perfect…but his identity was restricted to not have ALL knowledge.
He was fated to Gain all knowledge, not already have it.
Is anything too har
d for our LORD?After gaining all wisdom and knowledge he would then be equal to The Father, but in being a perfect manifestation…. Only a perfect manifestion of The Father understanding that he is NOT The Father, would subjegate his Father given will, to the father…as it is written: After all things are under christ, he will put everything under the father so that God is All in All.
I wonder what, “God will be All in All” means hhhmmm
It blows my mind away to get a glimpse of how perfect and intelligent our God is.
Why follow the creation? Simple because the Creator himself is too far above us, he is beyond our comprehension so we can only know of him through creation.
Those are understandings of a sinner. As we know creation is corrupt because of sin.
So if you try to understand your Father through creation? Then we all know that your views are corrupted.
My views are based on scripture, and I take scripture and build a logical explaination with the assistance of The Holy Spirit.
I feel The Holy Spirit within me stirred up, everytime I make these posts. Sometimes the wisdom I'm imparted with are too hard to put into words.
Questions answered….Amen.
Quote (RokkaMan @ Aug. 15 2009,06:24) Quote (942767 @ Aug. 14 2009,09:13) Hi RM: I fail to understand why there has to be such a thing as the “trinity doctrine” when there are unambiguous scriptures that tell us that Jesus is the Christ the Son of the Living God(Matt. 16:13-17), and that the Holy Spirit is God's Spirit (1 Co. 2:10).
This(the trinity) is a man made doctrine based on someone trying to understand the scriptures, and the church has made it doctrine that they say is a fact.
God is not the author of confusion.
Love in Christ,
Marty
Well if the Holy Spirit is God's spirit, and you admit that…then where is the arguement?No one ever said the Holy Spirit was a separate God…trinitarians believe the Holy Spirit IS GOD?
My arm is my arm, just like my leg is my leg…It is a part of me? So it is of Me…it is not a separate being.
So if the Holy Spirit is God's spirit, it is a part of God.
Just like Jesus is a part of God.
And like my arm or leg, they can only do what I tell them to do. Just like The Son and Spirit can only do what the Father tells them to do.
Where is the disagreement? And how don't you understand?
Hi RMThe disagreement is that the Holy Spirit is not a “Third person”, but is as the scriptures state, God's Spirit, and Jesus is God's Only Begotten Son, and not God the Son.
Love in Christ,
MartyI just want to say Hebrews 12:2 says; Jesus is AUTHOR and FINISHER of our faith. (So who laid down his life for us?) Jesus!! 1 John 3:16 says hereby perceive we the love of God,because He laid down his life for us, and we ought to lay down our lifes for the brothern.(that is calling Jesus,God) Also Colossians1;15 tells us Jesus is the image of the invisable God, first born of every creature! And 16 tells us all things where created by Him things in heaven and earth, all things where created by Him and for Him. Deuteronmy 10:17 says The Lord your God is God of all Gods.(20) Make your promises in His name. He is the one you should praise HE is your GOD! God Bless!
Quote (katjo @ Aug. 15 2009,11:37) I just want to say Hebrews 12:2 says; Jesus is AUTHOR and FINISHER of our faith. (So who laid down his life for us?) Jesus!! 1 John 3:16 says hereby perceive we the love of God,because He laid down his life for us, and we ought to lay down our lifes for the brothern.(that is calling Jesus,God) Also Colossians1;15 tells us Jesus is the image of the invisable God, first born of every creature! And 16 tells us all things where created by Him things in heaven and earth, all things where created by Him and for Him. Deuteronmy 10:17 says The Lord your God is God of all Gods.(20) Make your promises in His name. He is the one you should praise HE is your GOD! God Bless!
Hi Katjo:Maybe the following scriptures may help you to understand what the scriptures that you quoted mean:
Quote Jhn 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou [then], Shew us the Father?
Jhn 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.Quote Hbr 5:7 Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared;
Hbr 5:8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;
Hbr 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;Quote Hbr 1:1 ¶ God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
Hbr 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by [his] Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
Hbr 1:3 Who being the brightness of [his] glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;Love in Christ,
Martyhello! These are not the scriptures that I quoted.
Quote (RokkaMan @ Aug. 14 2009,06:48) Quote (Cato @ Aug. 14 2009,06:14) So what you say is that Jesus is the physical (in human form) manifestation of the Godhead equal in power and authority to Father and Holy Ghost, as obviously they are all facets of the same being in your view. I assume here that in your view Jesus is not an avatar of the almighty or a demigod human/god hybrid but in God himself taking upon himself fully the mantle of humankind. Why this is illogical:
The limitless can not be limited, it is paradoxical, God could not be fully Almighty as a human.
If Jesus was God how could he be tempted, have gaps in knowledge, have need of baptisim or could any gaze upon his countenance? What would his example be to the rest of us who are not divine? No, it make little sense. While personally I think Jesus was human and only human you would make a more convincing argument for the divinity of Jesus if you described him as an avatar of the Almighty, like Krishna was for Vishnu in the Hindu religion, for then as an avatar or limited aspect of the divine you would not have the same logical conflicts in your argument. At any rate making Jesus divine takes away from his greatness rather then magnifies it in my mind. For if Jesus was God his accomplishments are trivial if he was only man like the rest of us his accomplishments are monumental. I would find it hard to follow the footsteps of a god, but those of a man, well that is something I can aspire to. Perhaps Jesus was sent not as sacrifice for sins but as teacher to show us how not to sin?
Ok and again I was taken incorrectly.As I have said, Jesus and the Holy Spirit are equal in ESSENCE, but LESS in Authority.
Please do not put words in my mouth, I never said they were equal in authority.
And the infinite can be temporarily finite. Isn't that the nature of the Human spirit bound to a temporary Body? And after we die, we are liberated from the Body to live in spirit?
The Infinite Son who has always been with the father, “HUMBLED” himself to be bound to a finite body and experience life as a human.
This was the monumental aspect of Jesus, not the fact that he performed wonders and never sinned.
We are to follow the footsteps in faith and repentance, not complete abolishment of sin for the blemish of sin that is already on your soul cannot be forgiven.
To not sin at all would be a work of works, not a work of faith. The only thing that we can offer God is faith and trust so no your idea that Jesus was hear to teach us not to since would be blasphemy.
How dare you say “Perhaps Jesus was sent not as sacrifice for sins”
Man is born a sinner for the sins of the father are passed down to the child. Our world is a product of Adam's fall.
Jesus is that reconciliation.
Is monumental feat was being equal in God, tho less in Authority…Humbled his honored position of being creator of the cosmos, to be a mere Man on earth.
Being Man in Flesh, God in spirit..he never sinned, but was accussed and condemned for the sins of the world…This act was the monumental perfect sacrifice that reveals his Identity.
I would love to follow the footsteps of a God, not a man.
Why follow the creation when you can follow the creator.
(In reference to man, not God….I am not referring Jesus who is God made flesh)
As I have said, Jesus and the Holy Spirit are equal in ESSENCE, but LESS in Authority.It seems you don't even know what the trinity is.
I am not putting words in your mouth, I was saying what the trinity is, since I came out of the Catholic Church. I know what it is. It is 3in1. All are equal. And all are being's or Hypostacy's.In my view, Jesus is the Son of God, the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of the Father, and the Father is Almighty. Greater then the Son. Above all in
Ephesians 4:6 one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in us all.”GET THIS I DO NOT BELIEVE IN THE TRINITY. GOT IT DUD
Jesus was not divine at first when He was with God in the beginning before the world was, however now He is. He will never die. We still can die eternally. Our Salvation is not automatic like some might want to believe.
Talking about putting words in my mouth!!!!! Maybe you should look in the mirror.Also you seem not to know all the Scriptures that shows that first in John 1:1 and then in Hebrew 1:8
look it up you might learn something.
God is a title and has nothing to do with how great a being is. The Father Almighty will always be above All.
That is all. Goodbye.Quote (katjo @ Aug. 15 2009,13:29) hello! These are not the scriptures that I quoted.
Hello back to you. I said that the scriptures that I quoted will help you understand the scriptures that you quoted. Jesus was obeying God's Word. God made man in His own image, and Jesus is the express image of God's person. He is not God in the sense that the “trinity” indicates.Every born again Christian should be manifesting the love of God through the life that they live.
Here is a scripture that you mentioned but you did not quote it in entirely and in context.
Quote 1Jo 3:16 ¶ Hereby perceive we the love [of God], because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down [our] lives for the brethren.
1Jo 3:17 But whoso hath this world's good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels [of compassion] from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him?If you note the (of God) is in parenthesis which means that the translators added this to give clarity to the scripture. Apparently, you understand this to mean that God laid down his life for us, but that is not what the scripture state. Look at the end of 1 John 3:17 and you will see that it is speaking about the love of God dwelling within born again believers beginning with Jesus who as you say is the author and finisher of our faith. He trusted God and obeyed Him without sin even unto death of the cross.
And you referred to the following scriptures:
Quote Col 1:12 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light: Col 1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated [us] into the kingdom of his dear Son:
Col 1:14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, [even] the forgiveness of sins:
Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
This is speaking of Jesus and it states that he is the image of the invisible God. He is “the image of the invisible God”. God made man in His own image, and Jesus is the last Adam, and he is the “express image of God's person”, but he is a man and not God.
And you referred to the following scripture:
Quote Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether [they be] thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: Col 1:17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all [things] he might have the preeminence.
God created every thing with him in mind. Jesus is God's heir, and we who are born again Christians are joint heirs with him. This world is temporary, but the new heavens and the new earth are being created for God's children.
And finally you quote the following scriptures:
Quote Deuteronmy 10:17 says The Lord your God is God of all Gods.(20) Make your promises in His name. He is the one you should praise HE is your GOD! I agree with this. This is referring to God the Father of our Lord Jesus and our Father by virtue of the Spirit of adoption.
Love in Christ,
Marty
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