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Quote (Tim Kraft @ June 07 2009,02:57) To all: You can make the scriptures say anything you want them to say. Prophecy for me is spiritually discerned. All those that are in Christ are Jews, Israel, Jacob, Jerusalem, the Holy City etc. Now here is Truth: Jesus said the Law and the Prophets were until John the Baptist. That was end of the Law and the Prophets (Luke 16:16)— All things written in the Law and the Prophets and the Psalms were fulfilled in Jesus, (Luke 24:44—-All things written in the Prophets about the Son of Man were fulfilled….(Luke 18:31)—-The Prophets and the Law prophesied until John (Matt 11:13)—-Jesus fulfilled all righteousness (Matt 3:15)….The Kingdom cometh NOT with observation, the Kingdom of God is within you(Luke 17:21)—Jesus was the fulfillment of the Law and the Prophets. They were testifying of him.This is the day of the Lord. Jesus is the Sabbath rest of God. This is the year of jubilee. Elijah the Prophet(Jesus said John was Elijah who was to come) will come BEFORE the great and terrible day of the Lord. Its great for believers, its terrible for those who don't believe. Not one jot or tittle of the Law will be changed UNTIL all be fulfilled. All was fulfilled in Jesus. He said it is finished. Now we are to grow up in him and rule in Love. People create doctrines that they just won't let go of. These scriptures are all words of the master Jesus himself. He was the end of time by presenting the eternal words of God. Jesus was the end of the religious world that had gone astray and were lost in sin. Now is the Gospel of the New Covenant which is the arrival of the Kingdom of God within each believer. Jesus dwells within us the whole Spirit attempts to rule through us. We are the clearing house.We are his Church which is his body. We are the Temple of God and Priest of the Temple. We are Kings of his Kingdom within. We can express the words and will of God in the Earth or express failure, sickness, destruction and hell in the Earth. Its time to understand the Truth and start administering Love, healing, and prosperiety to a sick world. Each person will experience this life as in the way they see and understand God.Its our choice! Blessings to all, TK
Hi TK,
The OT will not pass but remains as evidential truth.
However it was never given to the gentiles, only the Jews.
And that written law only applies to those it was given to.[rom2-3]
Those reborn into Christ of water and the Spirit are the church of God.Quote (Tim Kraft @ June 07 2009,02:57) To all: You can make the scriptures say anything you want them to say. Prophecy for me is spiritually discerned. All those that are in Christ are Jews, Israel, Jacob, Jerusalem, the Holy City etc. Now here is Truth: Jesus said the Law and the Prophets were until John the Baptist. That was end of the Law and the Prophets (Luke 16:16)— All things written in the Law and the Prophets and the Psalms were fulfilled in Jesus, (Luke 24:44—-All things written in the Prophets about the Son of Man were fulfilled….(Luke 18:31)—-The Prophets and the Law prophesied until John (Matt 11:13)—-Jesus fulfilled all righteousness (Matt 3:15)….The Kingdom cometh NOT with observation, the Kingdom of God is within you(Luke 17:21)—Jesus was the fulfillment of the Law and the Prophets. They were testifying of him.This is the day of the Lord. Jesus is the Sabbath rest of God. This is the year of jubilee. Elijah the Prophet(Jesus said John was Elijah who was to come) will come BEFORE the great and terrible day of the Lord. Its great for believers, its terrible for those who don't believe. Not one jot or tittle of the Law will be changed UNTIL all be fulfilled. All was fulfilled in Jesus. He said it is finished. Now we are to grow up in him and rule in Love. People create doctrines that they just won't let go of. These scriptures are all words of the master Jesus himself. He was the end of time by presenting the eternal words of God. Jesus was the end of the religious world that had gone astray and were lost in sin. Now is the Gospel of the New Covenant which is the arrival of the Kingdom of God within each believer. Jesus dwells within us the whole Spirit attempts to rule through us. We are the clearing house.We are his Church which is his body. We are the Temple of God and Priest of the Temple. We are Kings of his Kingdom within. We can express the words and will of God in the Earth or express failure, sickness, destruction and hell in the Earth. Its time to understand the Truth and start administering Love, healing, and prosperiety to a sick world. Each person will experience this life as in the way they see and understand God.Its our choice! Blessings to all, TK
Tim KraftHow could the prophesies of the book of Revelation have been fulfilled during Jesus time, it wasn't written until the end of the first Century.
Georg
Georg: Revelation is an overview of times and events leading up to and including the life of Jesus Christ. Its an unvieling of Jesus leading up to his finished work at the end where there is spiritual picture of the river of life flowing to man from God. (out of their bellys shall flow rivers of living water) At another time Jesus told the people, …there are some of you standing here that shall not taste of death untill you see the son of man come in power and glory.He came back from death to life seveal times and showed himself to many.Look at Daniels interpretaion of the statue at 2:44,..” in the days of those kings(the Roman Empire the fourth kingdom) God will set up a Kingdom that will never be desrtoyed…” Then the Stone cut from the mountain without hands was Jesus. Even the abomination of desolation happened in approximatly 1277 BC when Antichus Epiphany destroyed the Temple and slaughtered a hog on the alter. Get ahold of a copy of Josephus who tracked all the events and movements of the Jews and recorded all in the book of Josephus. Expecially covering the time period between Malachi and the arrival of John the Baptist. I think that was one or two thousand years. The change of covenants was monumental. The old covenant was actually the old way of religious service to God. The New Covenant was established because the old was lost in sin. Everything was sin. Sin required sacrifices, worship of God required the physical temple built with hands. The tithe which was never ordained by God. The firs tithe was between Abraham and Melchesidek. All that passed away and the New Day of the Lord came. Now we are the Temple made without hands. Jesus was the fulfillment of the acceptable year of the Lord. The Jubilee! The example of the new creation of man from God was Jesus, the firstborn of many. How he was and what he did is who we are and what we can do once we clean our of our minds sin. Sin or error against God or separation from God does not exist.Sin is a mistaken thought or belief. Sin is actually believing you have sinned. If you believe that something you have said or done is a sin against God, then as Paul said, to him who thinks it is a sin, it is! The Law is fulfilled, completed, finished. Now,you are the King of your Kingdom, and Priest of your Temple, and Pastor of the church which is your body. You have the power to establish a law unto yourself by judging another as doing something wrong but God says, judge not, LEST ye be judged. If you don't want to be judged don't judge anyone else! We are in charge of our own lives. As we walk in Love we walk in communion with the fulness of God. Much more, bless all, TK
Hi TK,
A fine philosophy but man is a helpless being.
Born in sin which entangles him he cannot break free.
Rebirth from above following Jesus is the way.Quote (Tim Kraft @ June 07 2009,22:24) Georg: Revelation is an overview of times and events leading up to and including the life of Jesus Christ. Its an unvieling of Jesus leading up to his finished work at the end where there is spiritual picture of the river of life flowing to man from God. (out of their bellys shall flow rivers of living water) At another time Jesus told the people, …there are some of you standing here that shall not taste of death untill you see the son of man come in power and glory.He came back from death to life seveal times and showed himself to many.Look at Daniels interpretaion of the statue at 2:44,..” in the days of those kings(the Roman Empire the fourth kingdom) God will set up a Kingdom that will never be desrtoyed…” Then the Stone cut from the mountain without hands was Jesus. Even the abomination of desolation happened in approximatly 1277 BC when Antichus Epiphany destroyed the Temple and slaughtered a hog on the alter. Get ahold of a copy of Josephus who tracked all the events and movements of the Jews and recorded all in the book of Josephus. Expecially covering the time period between Malachi and the arrival of John the Baptist. I think that was one or two thousand years. The change of covenants was monumental. The old covenant was actually the old way of religious service to God. The New Covenant was established because the old was lost in sin. Everything was sin. Sin required sacrifices, worship of God required the physical temple built with hands. The tithe which was never ordained by God. The firs tithe was between Abraham and Melchesidek. All that passed away and the New Day of the Lord came. Now we are the Temple made without hands. Jesus was the fulfillment of the acceptable year of the Lord. The Jubilee! The example of the new creation of man from God was Jesus, the firstborn of many. How he was and what he did is who we are and what we can do once we clean our of our minds sin. Sin or error against God or separation from God does not exist.Sin is a mistaken thought or belief. Sin is actually believing you have sinned. If you believe that something you have said or done is a sin against God, then as Paul said, to him who thinks it is a sin, it is! The Law is fulfilled, completed, finished. Now,you are the King of your Kingdom, and Priest of your Temple, and Pastor of the church which is your body. You have the power to establish a law unto yourself by judging another as doing something wrong but God says, judge not, LEST ye be judged. If you don't want to be judged don't judge anyone else! We are in charge of our own lives. As we walk in Love we walk in communion with the fulness of God. Much more, bless all, TK
TKYou are as confused about the Roman empire existing 1277 BC, as you are about the rest of the stuff you say.
Georg
Nick: I say to you what Jesus says to all who will believe and accept: You, Nick, are the righteousness of God in Christ. Your sin is forgiven for all time. You are now the temple of God, the body of Christ which is the new church, and the Kingdom of God lives in you. You have been made a King and a Priest through Christ.The blood of Jesus has made you whole, perfect and sinless in the eyes of God. How you live this physical life on earth is completely separate from who you have been made in God. You can live a Godly life and reap the fruit of the Spirit of God, peace, love,joy,health,healing,prospierity or you can live in sin, sickness, depression, lack, pain and suffering, hell on earth. All aspects of life are created from your mind and thought processes. You have the mind of Christ, the power of God within. Jesus said guard that with all diligence. What you believe you will experience in this life. As you picture or see God in your mind, you will produce the feelings and attitudes of that belief. Positive/Love or Negative/Destruction, God has set before us life and death, now you choose! You will reap from life exactly how you see your relationship with God.To come to God you must believe that he is AND that he is a REWARDER of those that seek him. Jesus was the firstborn of the New Testament man. We are his brothers and sisters. If you look you will see, this is following Jesus! With Love and respect, TK
Nick: It is the finished work of the Christ, Jesus.He did it and gave it to us. It is for WHOSOEVER will believe. Re-thinking is the new-birth. Cleaning the mind out of all the old, religious ways of thinking and letting the word of God through Jesus in which is the cleansing do its work. The byproduct of Jesus' teachings is a new man. A new creation mentally! As a man thinketh, so he is! Its actually a brain washing. Wash away the old religious ways of worship and take on the new. That was the water baptizm of John. Now we must be emersed in the water of the word of God. Taking in your mind the New Truth is being Baptized in the Holy Spirit. Gods words are Spirit and they are Life! God gave the Truth to all. Jesus believed it and gave it to all. If we believe it we get it all too. Old religion must turn around (repent) from the way they were seeking God (they were lost in sin) and accept the Truth given by Jesus. In the New way we wash away old beliefs and receive the Gospel/New Truth of our one in one relationship with God/Jesus/Spirit! God bless you, TK
TK an Gene! You think that we should be Baptized? That is the only we can understand God's truth, when we receive God's Holy Spirit. Without it we understand not the things of God. Now we are able to have Faith in Jesus Christ, we know Him, and the Father and Jesus are with us, we are the temple of God. Salvation now is a free gift of God, so nobody can boast.
Ephesians 2:8-9
Through the Blood of Christ we have been washed clean, so stay under the Blood of Christ, and put away all sin. Walk in the Spirit and put on the whole Armor of God, and the evil one will have to stay away. What a great Savior and Heavenly Father we have, that Jesus loved us so much, that He gave up His own Life for us.
Peace and Love IreneQuote (Cindy @ June 09 2009,07:58) TK an Gene! You think that we should be Baptized? That is the only we can understand God's truth, when we receive God's Holy Spirit. Without it we understand not the things of God. Now we are able to have Faith in Jesus Christ, we know Him, and the Father and Jesus are with us, we are the temple of God. Salvation now is a free gift of God, so nobody can boast.
Ephesians 2:8-9
Through the Blood of Christ we have been washed clean, so stay under the Blood of Christ, and put away all sin. Walk in the Spirit and put on the whole Armor of God, and the evil one will have to stay away. What a great Savior and Heavenly Father we have, that Jesus loved us so much, that He gave up His own Life for us.
Peace and Love Irene
Irene: Water Baptism was a physical, metaphoric picture of the cleansing of the mind to prepare people for the new Spirit Baptism by the words of Jesus that are the True cleansing.For me recieving the Spirit of God is not a one time event. Gods words are Spirit and Jesus gave them to us to wash us clean of any thoughts of sin. When you wrote…and put away all sin….I would like to say more accurately…all sin has been put away by Jesus. There is nothing to do or not do on our part, just believe. Sin never was something you do or don't do. Sin was mistaken thinking or an error of belief that anything could separate man and God. You cannot be separated from God, he is everywhere, where would he go? Just for fun, replace the word sin with, “mistaken thoughts” when you read the Bible and see the change it makes in understanding.Please remember Irene that the war against us is not flesh and blood or a physical war. Religion (mans errant doctrines) will come and try to tell you that you gotta do something or not do something etc. But we know it is finished in Jesus, he made you perfect, don't let that go. Blessings upon you, TKQuote (Cindy @ June 08 2009,21:35) Quote (Tim Kraft @ June 07 2009,22:24) Georg: Revelation is an overview of times and events leading up to and including the life of Jesus Christ. Its an unvieling of Jesus leading up to his finished work at the end where there is spiritual picture of the river of life flowing to man from God. (out of their bellys shall flow rivers of living water) At another time Jesus told the people, …there are some of you standing here that shall not taste of death untill you see the son of man come in power and glory.He came back from death to life seveal times and showed himself to many.Look at Daniels interpretaion of the statue at 2:44,..” in the days of those kings(the Roman Empire the fourth kingdom) God will set up a Kingdom that will never be desrtoyed…” Then the Stone cut from the mountain without hands was Jesus. Even the abomination of desolation happened in approximatly 1277 BC when Antichus Epiphany destroyed the Temple and slaughtered a hog on the alter. Get ahold of a copy of Josephus who tracked all the events and movements of the Jews and recorded all in the book of Josephus. Expecially covering the time period between Malachi and the arrival of John the Baptist. I think that was one or two thousand years. The change of covenants was monumental. The old covenant was actually the old way of religious service to God. The New Covenant was established because the old was lost in sin. Everything was sin. Sin required sacrifices, worship of God required the physical temple built with hands. The tithe which was never ordained by God. The firs tithe was between Abraham and Melchesidek. All that passed away and the New Day of the Lord came. Now we are the Temple made without hands. Jesus was the fulfillment of the acceptable year of the Lord. The Jubilee! The example of the new creation of man from God was Jesus, the firstborn of many. How he was and what he did is who we are and what we can do once we clean our of our minds sin. Sin or error against God or separation from God does not exist.Sin is a mistaken thought or belief. Sin is actually believing you have sinned. If you believe that something you have said or done is a sin against God, then as Paul said, to him who thinks it is a sin, it is! The Law is fulfilled, completed, finished. Now,you are the King of your Kingdom, and Priest of your Temple, and Pastor of the church which is your body. You have the power to establish a law unto yourself by judging another as doing something wrong but God says, judge not, LEST ye be judged. If you don't want to be judged don't judge anyone else! We are in charge of our own lives. As we walk in Love we walk in communion with the fulness of God. Much more, bless all, TK
TKYou are as confused about the Roman empire existing 1277 BC, as you are about the rest of the stuff you say.
Georg
Georg: You might want to re-read what I wrote. I did not say 1277 BC was the Roman Empire. I said the abomination of desolation happened approx. 1277 BC/ Three and a half years before the arrival of Jesus. By the way if I make a typographical error shall we throw everything out? Give me a break. If you wish to shoot barbs at me please try to be accurate. Challenges I accept, I don't like anger. Peace brother, TKTK Paul would somehow disagree with you. John tells us if we believe that we are not sinners the truth is not in us.
1 John 1:8-10
Paul says I do what I am not to do, and do not what I should do. We still are sinners, the flesh is still involved, but in Jesus sin is not imputed to us. But we still have to confess our sins and God will forgive us in a twinkling of an eye.
Christ took away the death penalty of the sin that we commit. He is the perfect Sacrifice for our sin's. And if we walk in the Spirit, like I said before the evil one has to leave, I never said that we don't sin. Paul says that we die daily. The more we overcome the more God gives us of His Spirit IMO.
Peace and Love IreneQuote (Cindy @ June 07 2009,15:04) Quote (Tim Kraft @ June 07 2009,02:57) To all: You can make the scriptures say anything you want them to say. Prophecy for me is spiritually discerned. All those that are in Christ are Jews, Israel, Jacob, Jerusalem, the Holy City etc. Now here is Truth: Jesus said the Law and the Prophets were until John the Baptist. That was end of the Law and the Prophets (Luke 16:16)— All things written in the Law and the Prophets and the Psalms were fulfilled in Jesus, (Luke 24:44—-All things written in the Prophets about the Son of Man were fulfilled….(Luke 18:31)—-The Prophets and the Law prophesied until John (Matt 11:13)—-Jesus fulfilled all righteousness (Matt 3:15)….The Kingdom cometh NOT with observation, the Kingdom of God is within you(Luke 17:21)—Jesus was the fulfillment of the Law and the Prophets. They were testifying of him.This is the day of the Lord. Jesus is the Sabbath rest of God. This is the year of jubilee. Elijah the Prophet(Jesus said John was Elijah who was to come) will come BEFORE the great and terrible day of the Lord. Its great for believers, its terrible for those who don't believe. Not one jot or tittle of the Law will be changed UNTIL all be fulfilled. All was fulfilled in Jesus. He said it is finished. Now we are to grow up in him and rule in Love. People create doctrines that they just won't let go of. These scriptures are all words of the master Jesus himself. He was the end of time by presenting the eternal words of God. Jesus was the end of the religious world that had gone astray and were lost in sin. Now is the Gospel of the New Covenant which is the arrival of the Kingdom of God within each believer. Jesus dwells within us the whole Spirit attempts to rule through us. We are the clearing house.We are his Church which is his body. We are the Temple of God and Priest of the Temple. We are Kings of his Kingdom within. We can express the words and will of God in the Earth or express failure, sickness, destruction and hell in the Earth. Its time to understand the Truth and start administering Love, healing, and prosperiety to a sick world. Each person will experience this life as in the way they see and understand God.Its our choice! Blessings to all, TK
Tim KraftHow could the prophesies of the book of Revelation have been fulfilled during Jesus time, it wasn't written until the end of the first Century.
Georg
Georg: Jesus, more than once, said: The Law and The Prophets were UNTIL John the Baptist. Since then (since John) the Gospel of the Kingdom is preached…Luke 16:16!!
John himself said…blessed are they that hear the words of this prophecy…..If that count's as a prophecy then if was fulfilled before the Gospel was preached. Some people have a very hard time undestanding revelation. I know I do. If it was all we had to find God I'd be lost. Peace, TKQuote (Cindy @ June 09 2009,10:33) TK Paul would somehow disagree with you. John tells us if we believe that we are not sinners the truth is not in us.
1 John 1:8-10
Paul says I do what I am not to do, and do not what I should do. We still are sinners, the flesh is still involved, but in Jesus sin is not imputed to us. But we still have to confess our sins and God will forgive us in a twinkling of an eye.
Christ took away the death penalty of the sin that we commit. He is the perfect Sacrifice for our sin's. And if we walk in the Spirit, like I said before the evil one has to leave, I never said that we don't sin. Paul says that we die daily. The more we overcome the more God gives us of His Spirit IMO.
Peace and Love Irene
Irene:Everybody has the free will choice to find the Truth of God. I have found my Truth and it creates the fruit of Love in my heart. You have found your own Truth. Be blessed, TKQuote (Tim Kraft @ June 09 2009,00:46) Nick: It is the finished work of the Christ, Jesus.He did it and gave it to us. It is for WHOSOEVER will believe. Re-thinking is the new-birth. Cleaning the mind out of all the old, religious ways of thinking and letting the word of God through Jesus in which is the cleansing do its work. The byproduct of Jesus' teachings is a new man. A new creation mentally! As a man thinketh, so he is! Its actually a brain washing. Wash away the old religious ways of worship and take on the new. That was the water baptizm of John. Now we must be emersed in the water of the word of God. Taking in your mind the New Truth is being Baptized in the Holy Spirit. Gods words are Spirit and they are Life! God gave the Truth to all. Jesus believed it and gave it to all. If we believe it we get it all too. Old religion must turn around (repent) from the way they were seeking God (they were lost in sin) and accept the Truth given by Jesus. In the New way we wash away old beliefs and receive the Gospel/New Truth of our one in one relationship with God/Jesus/Spirit! God bless you, TK
TK,
Not bad bro. Not bad at all!thinker
Quote (Gene @ June 09 2009,02:23) Tim Kraft……….Amen brother. peace and love to you and yours………………………………..gene
Gene,
You “amen” TK so much you're starting to sound like a parrot.thinker
Quote (Tim Kraft @ June 09 2009,10:07) Quote (Cindy @ June 09 2009,07:58) TK an Gene! You think that we should be Baptized? That is the only we can understand God's truth, when we receive God's Holy Spirit. Without it we understand not the things of God. Now we are able to have Faith in Jesus Christ, we know Him, and the Father and Jesus are with us, we are the temple of God. Salvation now is a free gift of God, so nobody can boast.
Ephesians 2:8-9
Through the Blood of Christ we have been washed clean, so stay under the Blood of Christ, and put away all sin. Walk in the Spirit and put on the whole Armor of God, and the evil one will have to stay away. What a great Savior and Heavenly Father we have, that Jesus loved us so much, that He gave up His own Life for us.
Peace and Love Irene
Irene: Water Baptism was a physical, metaphoric picture of the cleansing of the mind to prepare people for the new Spirit Baptism by the words of Jesus that are the True cleansing.For me recieving the Spirit of God is not a one time event. Gods words are Spirit and Jesus gave them to us to wash us clean of any thoughts of sin. When you wrote…and put away all sin….I would like to say more accurately…all sin has been put away by Jesus. There is nothing to do or not do on our part, just believe. Sin never was something you do or don't do. Sin was mistaken thinking or an error of belief that anything could separate man and God. You cannot be separated from God, he is everywhere, where would he go? Just for fun, replace the word sin with, “mistaken thoughts” when you read the Bible and see the change it makes in understanding.Please remember Irene that the war against us is not flesh and blood or a physical war. Religion (mans errant doctrines) will come and try to tell you that you gotta do something or not do something etc. But we know it is finished in Jesus, he made you perfect, don't let that go. Blessings upon you, TK
Hi TK,
So somehow reading scripture cleansed your mind and you gradually gained the Holy Spirit? Sort of a self salvation?Sounds rather different to what happened in Acts.
We are so weak and easily self deceived.
We must be born again.Quote (Cindy @ June 06 2009,14:33) thinker Eze 36:17 Son of man, when the house of Israel dwelt in their own land, they defiled it by their own way and by their doings: their way was before me as the uncleanness of a removed woman.
Eze 36:18 Wherefore I poured my fury upon them for the blood that they had shed upon the land, and for their idols wherewith they had polluted it:
Eze 36:19 And I scattered them among the heathen, and they were dispersed through the countries: according to their way and according to their doings I judged them.
Eze 36:21 But I had pity for mine holy name, which the house of Israel had profaned among the heathen, whither they went.
Eze 36:22 Therefore say unto the house of Israel, Thus saith the Lord GOD; I do not this for your sakes, O house of Israel, but for mine holy name's sake, which ye have profaned among the heathen, whither ye went.
Eze 36:24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.That process began in 1918 when the British drove out the Muslim Turks who had occupied Palestine, then in 1948 Israel became a nation again. God always keeps his promise.
Georg
Georg,
I just gave you the Scripture. God told Ezekiel to tell the people to stop saying that the prophecy would be postponed,Quote And the word of the Lord came to me saying, “Son of man, what is this taunt that you people have spoken about the land of Israel, which says, 'The days are prolonged, and every vision fails'? Tell them therefore, 'Thus says the Lord God: “I will lay this taunt to rest, and they shall no more use it as a taunt in Israel.” But say to them, “The days are at hand, and the fulfillment of EVERY vision….I speak, and the word which I speak will come to pass; it will no more be postponed; for in YOUR DAYS, O rebellious house, I will say the word and perform it,” says the Lord God (Ezekiel 12:21-25) This is without dispute! The people were taunting the word of the Lord saying, “The visions are not going to come to pass in our time. The visions have failed and won't be fulfilled for a long time coming.” But God replied saying, “I am going to lay this poppycock to rest right now. The word concerning the land and all the visions will be fulfilled in YOUR days. I will say the word and it will be done.”
God told Ezekiel to tell the people that the days for fulfillment were “AT HAND” and in “YOUR DAYS” and that it will not be postponed.
I know the kind of books and radio programming that says that this is to be fulfilled in our time. I recommend that you trash every one of the books that teach such nonsense and listen to another radio station. The British, the Turks, and modern day Israel have nothing at all do do with Ezekiel's visions.
thinker
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