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Kerwin! Do you believe when you die, you either go to heaven or go to hell? And when is the resurrection and what is it for?
If all either go to heaven or hell, why the resurerection?? The judgment is yet to come….
That has not happened yet. I gave you Scriptures that shows that the dead know nothing….So why don't you believe that…???
What befalleth beast will befalleth man. All go to their graves, all turn to dust, and the Spirit in man goes back to God who gave it….no in between, no Human Ghosts. Scriptures given in above post….
I don't think I overlooked anything.
The beginning of the parable tells us that it is a parable. No body is in paradise, which Abraham's bosom represents….All are sleeping in their graves….
Also whatever I write, especially in somethings so controversial, I ask Georg for advice. He addresses this parable in His Book…. And He gives Scriptures all He does and writes….
What the parable has taught me is whatever I do in this life, is so important. Not to be like the rich man and ignore those who need our help. To life a humble life….To make certain that whenever Satan throws a stone at me, to repent…The biggest example of the rich man is that he did not even see the beggar…So it can also be in our life. To set an example to our Family….Those are important to me….
Here on Heaven Net are those who will be loving and those who inflict nasty remarks….Here too we can either be nasty and follow those who do, or be loving and caring…
But most of all to become more Christ like….that is what I see the parable tells me…
Peace and Love IreneQuote (terraricca @ Jan. 21 2011,07:17) Irene do you really think that Christ cames to the Jews to tell about there emotion feelings??
Pierre
Hey Pierre! That is another subject, which I am not to familiar with….But all I do know that they are God's Peopl, and in due time He will take care of them….whether that is right or wrong time will tell…..
Peace and love IreneQuote (Baker @ Jan. 21 2011,16:10) Quote (terraricca @ Jan. 21 2011,07:17) Irene do you really think that Christ cames to the Jews to tell about there emotion feelings??
Pierre
Hey Pierre! That is another subject, which I am not to familiar with….But all I do know that they are God's Peopl, and in due time He will take care of them….whether that is right or wrong time will tell…..
Peace and love Irene
Ireneof cause not ,Christ came to save his people ,but he was rejected,
but this is temporary until the second resurrection they will all open there eyes and see ,
Pierre
Irene,
I believe what I understand from scripture and that is that there is a waiting place for the souls of those whose bodies have died until Resurrection Day. In this waiting place each and every soul knows nothing of the hope for salvation of the living from they are subject to judgment. Those who lived a life of wickedness will be tormented while those who lived a life of righteousness will know comfort. This torment or comfort may merely stem from their foreknowledge of what the judgment will be on judgment day as it will be spiritual in nature as they have no body to feel physical comfort or torment.
The lake of fire is the final death and happens after the resurrection. The wicked will be destroyed at that time and the righteous will be resurrected to eternal life.
You state no one is in Abraham’s bosom after they die the first death and yet Jesus told the thief he would see him in paradise that day. This is not the Paradise that is an alternative name for Eden but rather a place of comfort while waiting for judgment day.
One of the many lessons of the parable of the rich man and Lazarus is that those who persist in doing right will be rewarded while those who do not will be punished.
Quote (kerwin @ Jan. 21 2011,22:14) Irene, I believe what I understand from scripture and that is that there is a waiting place for the souls of those whose bodies have died until Resurrection Day. In this waiting place each and every soul knows nothing of the hope for salvation of the living from they are subject to judgment. Those who lived a life of wickedness will be tormented while those who lived a life of righteousness will know comfort. This torment or comfort may merely stem from their foreknowledge of what the judgment will be on judgment day as it will be spiritual in nature as they have no body to feel physical comfort or torment.
The lake of fire is the final death and happens after the resurrection. The wicked will be destroyed at that time and the righteous will be resurrected to eternal life.
You state no one is in Abraham’s bosom after they die the first death and yet Jesus told the thief he would see him in paradise that day. This is not the Paradise that is an alternative name for Eden but rather a place of comfort while waiting for judgment day.
One of the many lessons of the parable of the rich man and Lazarus is that those who persist in doing right will be rewarded while those who do not will be punished.
Kerwin! If you put it this way; “I tell you today”, you will be with me in Paradise, now we see that paradise is not here yet or a better word is eternal life. Paradise is not a separate place from God's Kingdom, it IS God's Kingdom. That paradise was closed to us because of sin. Only after all is done when God comes with the new Jerusalem, after the 1000 years, will we, or those who will be lucky to have eternal life, be in paradise. That is where the tree of life is…The rest of your post we already discussed…..
Also you say a lot, but give no Scripture….Please do so…
besides, if they don't feel no pain, how can they be tortured?
Scriptures, scriptures, scriptures….
Peace and love IreneKerwin………..The PARABLE of the rich man and Lazarus is a PARABLE, which is a (FICTITIOUS ILLUSTRATION). It can not be taken LITERAL. IMO
peace and love………………………………..gene
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Jan. 22 2011,03:37) Kerwin………..The PARABLE of the rich man and Lazarus is a PARABLE, which is a (FICTITIOUS ILLUSTRATION). It can not be taken LITERAL. IMO peace and love………………………………..gene
Greetings Gene….. Para( running with,in line with,in agreement with) parallel to….There is no fiction in a parabel..there is only interpretation and that is ambigious…Jesus purposly spoke in parabels with an intent to confuse the wise and learned…Quote (theodorej @ Jan. 22 2011,13:38) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Jan. 22 2011,03:37) Kerwin………..The PARABLE of the rich man and Lazarus is a PARABLE, which is a (FICTITIOUS ILLUSTRATION). It can not be taken LITERAL. IMO peace and love………………………………..gene
Greetings Gene….. Para( running with,in line with,in agreement with) parallel to….There is no fiction in a parabel..there is only interpretation and that is ambigious…Jesus purposly spoke in parabels with an intent to confuse the wise and learned…
Hi Theodore, I agree with you…..Jesus gave several parables….and they are not fiction….
Peace and Love IreneIrene,
I have four translations here that all place the comma before the Today unlike what you chose to do. Why do you believe these translators are in error?
Quote Luke 23:43 (New International Version, ©2010)
43 Jesus answered him, “Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise.”
Luke 23:43 (King James Version)
43And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.
Luke 23:43 (American Standard Version)
43 And he said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To-day shalt thou be with me in Paradise.
Luke 23:43 (Young's Literal Translation)
43and Jesus said to him, `Verily I say to thee, To-day with me thou shalt be in the paradise.'
The word paradise is used both for Eden and for Abraham’s bosom which are not the same place though both are pleasant environments.
The wording chosen by the translators is consistent with Jewish beliefs of the First Century and Jesus is a Jew.
I do not know the details about how a soul feels spiritual torment but it seems reasonable to hypothesize it is similar to how we feel mental torment. Paul describes himself as a wretch under the law as he is bound to sin but his soul desires to do all that is right, Romans 7:21-25. That is spiritual torment. The wicked dead may just be suffering the pain of knowing of their coming destruction. I have not looked into this subject enough to be sure of such details.
References:
Quote Romans 7(NIV)
21 So I find this law at work: Although I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22 For in my inner being I delight in God’s law; 23 but I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me. 24 What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death? 25 Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord!
So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God’s law, but in my sinful nature a slave to the law of sin.
Quote (kerwin @ Jan. 22 2011,20:50) Irene, I have four translations here that all place the comma before the Today unlike what you chose to do. Why do you believe these translators are in error?
Quote Luke 23:43 (New International Version, ©2010)
43 Jesus answered him, “Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise.”
Luke 23:43 (King James Version)
43And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.
Luke 23:43 (American Standard Version)
43 And he said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To-day shalt thou be with me in Paradise.
Luke 23:43 (Young's Literal Translation)
43and Jesus said to him, `Verily I say to thee, To-day with me thou shalt be in the paradise.'
The word paradise is used both for Eden and for Abraham’s bosom which are not the same place though both are pleasant environments.
The wording chosen by the translators is consistent with Jewish beliefs of the First Century and Jesus is a Jew.
I do not know the details about how a soul feels spiritual torment but it seems reasonable to hypothesize it is similar to how we feel mental torment. Paul describes himself as a wretch under the law as he is bound to sin but his soul desires to do all that is right, Romans 7:21-25. That is spiritual torment. The wicked dead may just be suffering the pain of knowing of their coming destruction. I have not looked into this subject enough to be sure of such details.
References:
Quote Romans 7(NIV)
21 So I find this law at work: Although I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22 For in my inner being I delight in God’s law; 23 but I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me. 24 What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death? 25 Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord!
So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God’s law, but in my sinful nature a slave to the law of sin.
Kerwin! Romans 7;21-25 is not talking about torment. that is your interpretation. I don't do that. He is talking about the Law, not torment.
Tell me did Jesus go to Paradise after His resurrection? No… So the thief did not either. If Scripture stands as it is written then all are sleeping in their graves, and Scriptures cannot be broken….
Lazarus and the rich man is a parable and it should not be taken literal….also why then have a resurrection, if they already are alive in the Spirit. That too doesn't make sense. Period…..Sorry but I disagree….
Paradise in Eden is not here yet. It will be God's Kingdom in the New Jerusalem, here on earth. I Goggled itEden / Paradise
And Yahweh Elohim (God) planted a garden eastward in Eden; . . . and out of the ground Yahweh Elohim caused to grow every tree that is pleasing to the sight and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden . . . — Gen 2:8-9 Eden and Paradise are translations of the same original word: The Hebrew Gan Edan (Garden of Eden) of Genesis is translated into the Greek Septuagint as Paradisos, from whence we get Paradise.
“To him who overcomes, I will grant to eat of the tree of life, which is in the Paradise of God.” — Rev 2:7
(A comparison of Revelation 2 & 22 with Genesis 2 will show many of the same elements.)Evildoers will be cut off, but those who wait for Yahweh shall inherit the earth . . . The meek shall inherit the earth, and delight themselves in abundant prosperity and peace . . . The righteous shall inherit the earth, and dwell therein forever! — Psalm 37:9, 11, 29 God destroyed the earth once by water (in Noah's day), and will again destroy the earth — but with fire. The term New Earth is better translated Renewed Earth: as it was once renewed by water, it will be renewed by fire.
Yeshua said, “Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth.” — Matthew 5:5
“For just as the renewed heavens and renewed earth which I will create will endure before Me,” declares Yahweh, “so your offspring and your name will endure. And it shall be from New Moon to New Moon, and from Sabbath to Sabbath, all mankind will come to bow down before Me,” says Yahweh. — Isaiah 66:22-23 Yeshua said, “I go to prepare a place for you.” Then John said, “I saw renewed heavens and a renewed earth . . . And I saw the Holy City, New Jerusalem, coming down out of the heavens from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.”And I saw a renewed heavens and a renewed earth; for the first heavens and the first earth had disappeared, and there was no longer any sea. And I John saw the Holy City, New Jerusalem, coming down out of the heavens from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He shall dwell among them, and they shall be His peoples, and God Himself shall dwell among them.” — Rev 21:1-3
“I am Yahweh . . . I will separte you . . . I will deliver you . . . I will redeem you with an outstretched arm . . . I will take you for My people and I will be your God” — Exodus 6:6-7 Paradise, our eternal home on the renewed earth, will be Eden of old, restored to its perfection. There Yeshua — Emmanuel (god with us) — will dwell with us, fulfilling the old and renewed Covenant.
“Behold, the days are coming,” declares Yahweh, “when I will make a renewed covenant with with the House of Israel and with the House of Judah . . . I will be their God, and they shall be My people . . . they shall all know me . . . — Jeremiah 31:31-34As you can see Kerwin, I am not the only one who believes that Paradise in Eden will be in the New Jerusalem, coming DOWN TO EARTH….. Not yet…..will be… that goes along with the Scripture that all are sleeping in their graves, and the thief on the cross too…
I found it interesting, it also shows us that all are sleeping in their graves and that God will dwell with men. Future tense..
..
Let us reason together, will we be with Almighty God?Will the meek inherit the earth?
Are all still sleeping in their graves?
I am not only asking Kerwin, but all….
Peace and Love Irene
To All………..A parable can not be taken literally. It must be TRANSLATED into what it's implied meanings, NO PARABLE is LITERAL. Is the word of God (LITERAL SEED) no it is not, is sowing tares in a field Literal , is seeking the Lost Sheep literial, is water springing up in a person unto life Literal, is a Lamb slain from the foundations of the earth LITERAL , does a tree literally produce good and evil, is their a literial tree of Life, Does God live in literal temples, Did Lazarus literally beg for food and let the dog lick his sours, Was the rich man Literally in a place of torment and speaking to Abraham, was Jacob literial a worm, is the worm that dies not a literial worm, I could list thousands of none literal things portrayed in scriptures, It is when People try to make these Parables and Proverbs literial the brings most of the confusion we have. These are all metaphors relating to certain principles of Spirit (intellects) that give meaning to us by way of comparisons , (parables) are parallel stories, but they themselves are NOT LITERAL and should NOT Be taken a SUCH. Both Parables and Proverbs are fictitious illustrations that carry (factual meanings) with them, but they themselves are NOT LITERAL. IMO
peace and love to you all…………………………………………gene
Quote (Baker @ Jan. 23 2011,01:15) Kerwin! Romans 7;21-25 is not talking about torment. that is your interpretation. I don't do that. He is talking about the Law, not torment.
Tell me did Jesus go to Paradise after His resurrection? No… So the thief did not either. If Scripture stands as it is written then all are sleeping in their graves, and Scriptures cannot be broken….
Lazarus and the rich man is a parable and it should not be taken literal….also why then have a resurrection, if they already are alive in the Spirit. That too doesn't make sense. Period…..Sorry but I disagree….
Paradise in Eden is not here yet. It will be God's Kingdom in the New Jerusalem, here on earth. I Goggled itEden / Paradise
And Yahweh Elohim (God) planted a garden eastward in Eden; . . . and out of the ground Yahweh Elohim caused to grow every tree that is pleasing to the sight and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden . . . — Gen 2:8-9 Eden and Paradise are translations of the same original word: The Hebrew Gan Edan (Garden of Eden) of Genesis is translated into the Greek Septuagint as Paradisos, from whence we get Paradise.
“To him who overcomes, I will grant to eat of the tree of life, which is in the Paradise of God.” — Rev 2:7
(A comparison of Revelation 2 & 22 with Genesis 2 will show many of the same elements.)Evildoers will be cut off, but those who wait for Yahweh shall inherit the earth . . . The meek shall inherit the earth, and delight themselves in abundant prosperity and peace . . . The righteous shall inherit the earth, and dwell therein forever! — Psalm 37:9, 11, 29 God destroyed the earth once by water (in Noah's day), and will again destroy the earth — but with fire. The term New Earth is better translated Renewed Earth: as it was once renewed by water, it will be renewed by fire.
Yeshua said, “Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth.” — Matthew 5:5
“For just as the renewed heavens and renewed earth which I will create will endure before Me,” declares Yahweh, “so your offspring and your name will endure. And it shall be from New Moon to New Moon, and from Sabbath to Sabbath, all mankind will come to bow down before Me,” says Yahweh. — Isaiah 66:22-23 Yeshua said, “I go to prepare a place for you.” Then John said, “I saw renewed heavens and a renewed earth . . . And I saw the Holy City, New Jerusalem, coming down out of the heavens from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.”And I saw a renewed heavens and a renewed earth; for the first heavens and the first earth had disappeared, and there was no longer any sea. And I John saw the Holy City, New Jerusalem, coming down out of the heavens from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He shall dwell among them, and they shall be His peoples, and God Himself shall dwell among them.” — Rev 21:1-3
“I am Yahweh . . . I will separte you . . . I will deliver you . . . I will redeem you with an outstretched arm . . . I will take you for My people and I will be your God” — Exodus 6:6-7 Paradise, our eternal home on the renewed earth, will be Eden of old, restored to its perfection. There Yeshua — Emmanuel (god with us) — will dwell with us, fulfilling the old and renewed Covenant.
“Behold, the days are coming,” declares Yahweh, “when I will make a renewed covenant with with the House of Israel and with the House of Judah . . . I will be their God, and they shall be My people . . . they shall all know me . . . — Jeremiah 31:31-34As you can see Kerwin, I am not the only one who believes that Paradise in Eden will be in the New Jerusalem, coming DOWN TO EARTH….. Not yet…..will be… that goes along with the Scripture that all are sleeping in their graves, and the thief on the cross too…
I found it interesting, it also shows us that all are sleeping in their graves and that God will dwell with men. Future tense..
..
Let us reason together, will we be with Almighty God?Will the meek inherit the earth?
Are all still sleeping in their graves?
I am not only asking Kerwin, but all….
Peace and Love Irene
Good post it is Sis Irene. I too believe that Rich man and Lazarus story is mere a Parable than literal happening. If it was literal story then it is not supported by Hebrew scriptures. It makes Jesus a non-Jew. Bible talks about silence and rest for the dead souls and they will not have conscience of any sort. The Parable was only quoted by Luke alone which was also not supported by other Gospel writers which makes this story as a later tradition than originating from Jesus himself who was a strict Jew.Peace and love
AdamThank you Gene and Adam, We agree on this one….And we should all learn from it, to be humble and kind….To be more Christ like too…
Peace and Love IreneIrene,
One meaning of wretch is “1: a miserable person: one who is profoundly unhappy or in great misfortune “according to the Merriam-Webster online dictionary. Paul was a tormented person, Romans 7:24, before he came to know Jesus because though he in his soul hungered and thirsted for righteousness he could not be filled with it because he was chained to sin. It was Jesus who set him free. The torment he experienced while flawlessly obeying the law was of the soul and thus spiritual in nature.
One application of the common Greek word “paradeisos” translated “paradise” is “the part of Hades which was thought by the later Jews to be the abode of the souls of pious until the resurrection: but some understand this to be a heavenly paradise” according to the Greek Lexicon at searchgodsword.org” Jesus’ words to the thief fit this application and not applying it to a heavenly paradise. Another definition is “a garden, pleasure ground; a. grove, park”. Both Eden and Abraham’s Bosom fit this definition though they are different places. The soul of both Jesus and the Thief would go to the pleasure ground of Sheol after death as they were both men of faith.
I plan on meditating on Revelations 21. Thank you for bringing it up.
Kerwin…………..Jesus and the Thief were dead on “that” ( Day) they both went to a grave, the thief is still there the only one raised from the grave and is still alive is Jesus and He became again a living Soul , A Spirit + a BODY = A SOUL , the thief is not a living soul yet and won't be until he receives a new body at the resurrection and spirit added back into it. His thoughts are perished he no longer thinks he is dead as a door nob he no longer exists except in remaining DNA and the mind and heart of GOD, as all the dead of man kind are. The idea that a person is still alive after he dies is a false teaching of MYSTERY RELIGION . It is a true statement we have our (BEING) in the mind/heart and power of GOD. IMO
peace and love………………………………………..gene
Quote (kerwin @ Jan. 24 2011,04:59) Irene, One meaning of wretch is “1: a miserable person: one who is profoundly unhappy or in great misfortune “according to the Merriam-Webster online dictionary. Paul was a tormented person, Romans 7:24, before he came to know Jesus because though he in his soul hungered and thirsted for righteousness he could not be filled with it because he was chained to sin. It was Jesus who set him free. The torment he experienced while flawlessly obeying the law was of the soul and thus spiritual in nature.
One application of the common Greek word “paradeisos” translated “paradise” is “the part of Hades which was thought by the later Jews to be the abode of the souls of pious until the resurrection: but some understand this to be a heavenly paradise” according to the Greek Lexicon at searchgodsword.org” Jesus’ words to the thief fit this application and not applying it to a heavenly paradise. Another definition is “a garden, pleasure ground; a. grove, park”. Both Eden and Abraham’s Bosom fit this definition though they are different places. The soul of both Jesus and the Thief would go to the pleasure ground of Sheol after death as they were both men of faith.
I plan on meditating on Revelations 21. Thank you for bringing it up.
Kerwin! I don;t know were you got the explanation of Paradise from, but it is Not Hades…. And Paradise is in Eden…and not two different places…..did you even read my previews post about it???
It is a parable, Kerwin and not to be taken literal….For the last time….
.
Peace IreneIrene and Gene,
Here is something interested as I was looking through the Herodian Dynasty and its relationship to scripture that bears on parables. It is enough to base a hypothesis on but nothing more without additional evidence.
Wikipedia entry for Herod_Archelaus
The beginning and conclusion of Christ's Parable of the minas in the Gospel of Luke may refer to Archelaus's journey to Rome, in that Jesus' parables and preaching often made use of events familiar to the people as examples for bringing his spiritual lessons to life:[improper synthesis?]
“A nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom and then return…But his citizens hated him and sent a delegation after him, saying, 'We do not want this man to reign over us.'… 'But as for these enemies of mine,' [said the nobleman] 'who did not want me to reign over them, bring them here and slaughter them before me.'” (Luke 19:12, 19:14, 19:27)
To answer a couple of points which have been brought up.
The Mystery Religion was foretold by John as something that would come to be and even then it is probably a mistranslation of Revelation 17:5. The False Prophet is what you were probably speaking of instead and that is certainly part of the final countdown. The religious tenet about Sheol is a Jewish teaching that was around before Jesus was conceived in his mother’s womb and so long before the prophecy of Revelations. Below is what the Jewish Encyclopedia states about Sheol and the biblical support for the tenet.
My source for the definition of “paradeisos” which is translated to the English word “Paradise” in New Testament Scripture is the Lexicon at searchgodsword.org. A Lexicon is “a book containing an alphabetical arrangement of the words in a language and their definitions according to the Merriam Webster Online dictionary. The reason that paradise is listed as possibly meaning the pleasure part of Sheol is because that is how it was applied at times in common Greek. A generic label like Garden, is sometimes be applied to different areas because they are garden like. That does not make them the same place.
JewishEncyclopedia.com article about Sheol.
Position and Form.
Hebrew word of uncertain etymology (see Sheol, Critical View), synonym of “bor” (pit), “abaddon” and “shaḥat” (pit or destruction), and perhaps also of “tehom” (abyss).
—Biblical Data:
It connotes the place where those that had died were believed to be congregated. Jacob, refusing to be comforted at the supposed death of Joseph, exclaims: “I shall go down to my son a mourner unto Sheol” (Gen. xxxvii. 36, Hebr.; comp. ib. xlii. 38; xliv. 29, 31). Sheol is underneath the earth (Isa. vii. 11, lvii. 9; Ezek. xxxi. 14; Ps. lxxxvi. 13; Ecclus. [Sirach] li. 6; comp. Enoch, xvii. 6, “toward the setting of the sun”); hence it is designated as (Deut. xxxii. 22; Ps. lxxxvi. 13) or (Ps. lxxxviii. 7; Lam. iii. 55; Ezek. xxvi. 20, xxxii. 24). It is very deep (Prov. ix. 18; Isa. lvii. 9); and it marks the point at the greatest possible distance from heaven (Job xi. 8; Amos ix. 2; Ps. cxxxix. 8). The dead descend or are made to go down into it; the revived ascend or are brought and lifted up from it (I Sam. ii. 6; Job vii. 9; Ps. xxx. 4; Isa. xiv. 11, 15). Sometimes the living are hurled into Sheol before they would naturally have been claimed by it (Prov. i. 12; Num. xvi. 33; Ps. lv. 16, lxiii. 10), in which cases the earth is described as “opening her mouth” (Num. xvi. 30). Sheol is spoken of as a land (Job x. 21, 22); but ordinarily it is a place with gates (ib. xvii. 16, xxxviii. 17; Isa. xxxviii. 10; Ps. ix. 14), and seems to have been viewed as divided into compartments (Prov. vii. 27), with “farthest corners” (Isa. xiv. 15; Ezek. xxxii. 23, Hebr.; R. V. “uttermost parts of the pit”), one beneath the other (see Jew. Encyc. v. 217, s. v. Eschatology). Here the dead meet (Ezek. xxxii.; Isa. xiv.; Job xxx. 23) without distinction of rank or condition—the rich and the poor, the pious and the wicked, the old and the young, the master and the slave—if the description in Job iii. refers, as most likely it does, to Sheol. The dead continue after a fashion their earthly life. Jacob would mourn there (Gen. xxxvii. 35, xlii. 38); David abides there in peace (I Kings ii. 6); the warriors have their weapons with them (Ezek. xxxii. 27), yet they are mere shadows (“rephaim”; Isa. xiv. 9, xxvi. 14; Ps. lxxxviii. 5, A. V. “a man that hath no strength”). The dead merely exist without knowledge or feeling (Job xiv. 13; Eccl. ix. 5). Silence reigns supreme; and oblivion is the lot of them that enter therein (Ps. lxxxviii. 13, xciv. 17; Eccl. ix. 10). Hence it is known also as “Dumah,” the abode of silence (Ps. vi. 6, xxx. 10, xciv. 17, cxv. 17); and there God is not praised (ib. cxv. 17; Isa. xxxviii. 15). Still, on certain extraordinary occasions the dwellers in Sheol are credited with the gift of making knowntheir feelings of rejoicing at the downfall of the enemy (Isa. xiv. 9, 10). Sleep is their usual lot (Jer. li. 39; Isa. xxvi. 14; Job xiv. 12). Sheol is a horrible, dreary, dark, disorderly land (Job x. 21, 22); yet it is the appointed house for all the living (ib. xxx. 23). Return from Sheol is not expected (II Sam. xii. 23; Job vii. 9, 10; x. 21; xiv. 7 et seq.; xvi. 22; Ecclus. [Sirach] xxxviii. 21); it is described as man's eternal house (Eccl. xii. 5). It is “dust” (Ps. xxx. 10; hence in the Shemoneh 'Esreh, in benediction No. ii., the dead are described as “sleepers in the dust”).
God Its Ruler.
God's rulership over it is recognized (Amos ix. 2; Hos. xiii. 14; Deut. xxxii. 22; I Sam. ii. 6 [Isa. vii. 11?]; Prov. xv. 11). Hence He has the power to save the pious therefrom (Ps. xvi. 10, xlix. 16, the text of which latter passage, however, is recognized as corrupt). Yet Sheol is never satiated (Prov. xxx. 20); she “makes wide her soul,” i.e., increases her desire (Isa. v. 14) and capacity. In these passages Sheol is personified; it is described also as a pasture for sheep with death as the shepherd (Ps. xlix. 15). From Sheol Samuel is cited by the witch of En-dor (I Sam. xxviii. 3 et seq.). As a rule Sheol will not give up its own. They are held captive with ropes. This seems to be the original idea underlying the phrase (II Sam. xxii. 6; Ps. xviii. 6; R. V., verse 5, “the cords of Sheol”) and of the other expression, (Ps. cxvi. 3; R. V. “and the pains of Sheol”); for they certainly imply restraint or capture. Sheol is used as a simile for “jealousy” (Cant. viii. 7). For the post-Biblical development of the ideas involved see Eschatology.
Here is the rest of the source that covers both the Etymology and the hypothesis the concept comes from Assyria.
Reference:
Entry for “paradeisos” at searchGodstruth
1.among the Persians a grand enclosure or preserve, hunting ground, park, shady and well watered, in which wild animals, were kept for the hunt; it was enclosed by walls and furnished with towers for the hunters
2.a garden, pleasure ground
a.grove, park
3.the part of Hades which was thought by the later Jews to be the abode of the souls of pious until the resurrection: but some understand this to be a heavenly paradise
4.the upper regions of the heavens. According to the early church Fathers, the paradise in which our first parents dwelt before the fall still exists, neither on the earth or in the heavens, but above and beyond the world
5.heavenThe rest of the Lexicon entry is here.
Revelation 17:5(NIV)
The name written on her forehead was a mystery: BABYLON THE GREAT THE MOTHER OF PROSTITUTES AND OF THE ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.
Quote (kerwin @ Jan. 25 2011,21:35) Irene and Gene, Here is something interested as I was looking through the Herodian Dynasty and its relationship to scripture that bears on parables. It is enough to base a hypothesis on but nothing more without additional evidence.
Wikipedia entry for Herod_Archelaus
The beginning and conclusion of Christ's Parable of the minas in the Gospel of Luke may refer to Archelaus's journey to Rome, in that Jesus' parables and preaching often made use of events familiar to the people as examples for bringing his spiritual lessons to life:[improper synthesis?]
“A nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom and then return…But his citizens hated him and sent a delegation after him, saying, 'We do not want this man to reign over us.'… 'But as for these enemies of mine,' [said the nobleman] 'who did not want me to reign over them, bring them here and slaughter them before me.'” (Luke 19:12, 19:14, 19:27)
To answer a couple of points which have been brought up.
The Mystery Religion was foretold by John as something that would come to be and even then it is probably a mistranslation of Revelation 17:5. The False Prophet is what you were probably speaking of instead and that is certainly part of the final countdown. The religious tenet about Sheol is a Jewish teaching that was around before Jesus was conceived in his mother’s womb and so long before the prophecy of Revelations. Below is what the Jewish Encyclopedia states about Sheol and the biblical support for the tenet.
My source for the definition of “paradeisos” which is translated to the English word “Paradise” in New Testament Scripture is the Lexicon at searchgodsword.org. A Lexicon is “a book containing an alphabetical arrangement of the words in a language and their definitions according to the Merriam Webster Online dictionary. The reason that paradise is listed as possibly meaning the pleasure part of Sheol is because that is how it was applied at times in common Greek. A generic label like Garden, is sometimes be applied to different areas because they are garden like. That does not make them the same place.
JewishEncyclopedia.com article about Sheol.
Position and Form.
Hebrew word of uncertain etymology (see Sheol, Critical View), synonym of “bor” (pit), “abaddon” and “shaḥat” (pit or destruction), and perhaps also of “tehom” (abyss).
—Biblical Data:
It connotes the place where those that had died were believed to be congregated. Jacob, refusing to be comforted at the supposed death of Joseph, exclaims: “I shall go down to my son a mourner unto Sheol” (Gen. xxxvii. 36, Hebr.; comp. ib. xlii. 38; xliv. 29, 31). Sheol is underneath the earth (Isa. vii. 11, lvii. 9; Ezek. xxxi. 14; Ps. lxxxvi. 13; Ecclus. [Sirach] li. 6; comp. Enoch, xvii. 6, “toward the setting of the sun”); hence it is designated as (Deut. xxxii. 22; Ps. lxxxvi. 13) or (Ps. lxxxviii. 7; Lam. iii. 55; Ezek. xxvi. 20, xxxii. 24). It is very deep (Prov. ix. 18; Isa. lvii. 9); and it marks the point at the greatest possible distance from heaven (Job xi. 8; Amos ix. 2; Ps. cxxxix. 8). The dead descend or are made to go down into it; the revived ascend or are brought and lifted up from it (I Sam. ii. 6; Job vii. 9; Ps. xxx. 4; Isa. xiv. 11, 15). Sometimes the living are hurled into Sheol before they would naturally have been claimed by it (Prov. i. 12; Num. xvi. 33; Ps. lv. 16, lxiii. 10), in which cases the earth is described as “opening her mouth” (Num. xvi. 30). Sheol is spoken of as a land (Job x. 21, 22); but ordinarily it is a place with gates (ib. xvii. 16, xxxviii. 17; Isa. xxxviii. 10; Ps. ix. 14), and seems to have been viewed as divided into compartments (Prov. vii. 27), with “farthest corners” (Isa. xiv. 15; Ezek. xxxii. 23, Hebr.; R. V. “uttermost parts of the pit”), one beneath the other (see Jew. Encyc. v. 217, s. v. Eschatology). Here the dead meet (Ezek. xxxii.; Isa. xiv.; Job xxx. 23) without distinction of rank or condition—the rich and the poor, the pious and the wicked, the old and the young, the master and the slave—if the description in Job iii. refers, as most likely it does, to Sheol. The dead continue after a fashion their earthly life. Jacob would mourn there (Gen. xxxvii. 35, xlii. 38); David abides there in peace (I Kings ii. 6); the warriors have their weapons with them (Ezek. xxxii. 27), yet they are mere shadows (“rephaim”; Isa. xiv. 9, xxvi. 14; Ps. lxxxviii. 5, A. V. “a man that hath no strength”). The dead merely exist without knowledge or feeling (Job xiv. 13; Eccl. ix. 5). Silence reigns supreme; and oblivion is the lot of them that enter therein (Ps. lxxxviii. 13, xciv. 17; Eccl. ix. 10). Hence it is known also as “Dumah,” the abode of silence (Ps. vi. 6, xxx. 10, xciv. 17, cxv. 17); and there God is not praised (ib. cxv. 17; Isa. xxxviii. 15). Still, on certain extraordinary occasions the dwellers in Sheol are credited with the gift of making knowntheir feelings of rejoicing at the downfall of the enemy (Isa. xiv. 9, 10). Sleep is their usual lot (Jer. li. 39; Isa. xxvi. 14; Job xiv. 12). Sheol is a horrible, dreary, dark, disorderly land (Job x. 21, 22); yet it is the appointed house for all the living (ib. xxx. 23). Return from Sheol is not expected (II Sam. xii. 23; Job vii. 9, 10; x. 21; xiv. 7 et seq.; xvi. 22; Ecclus. [Sirach] xxxviii. 21); it is described as man's eternal house (Eccl. xii. 5). It is “dust” (Ps. xxx. 10; hence in the Shemoneh 'Esreh, in benediction No. ii., the dead are described as “sleepers in the dust”).
God Its Ruler.
God's rulership over it is recognized (Amos ix. 2; Hos. xiii. 14; Deut. xxxii. 22; I Sam. ii. 6 [Isa. vii. 11?]; Prov. xv. 11). Hence He has the power to save the pious therefrom (Ps. xvi. 10, xlix. 16, the text of which latter passage, however, is recognized as corrupt). Yet Sheol is never satiated (Prov. xxx. 20); she “makes wide her soul,” i.e., increases her desire (Isa. v. 14) and capacity. In these passages Sheol is personified; it is described also as a pasture for sheep with death as the shepherd (Ps. xlix. 15). From Sheol Samuel is cited by the witch of En-dor (I Sam. xxviii. 3 et seq.). As a rule Sheol will not give up its own. They are held captive with ropes. This seems to be the original idea underlying the phrase (II Sam. xxii. 6; Ps. xviii. 6; R. V., verse 5, “the cords of Sheol”) and of the other expression, (Ps. cxvi. 3; R. V. “and the pains of Sheol”); for they certainly imply restraint or capture. Sheol is used as a simile for “jealousy” (Cant. viii. 7). For the post-Biblical development of the ideas involved see Eschatology.
Here is the rest of the source that covers both the Etymology and the hypothesis the concept comes from Assyria.
Reference:
Entry for “paradeisos” at searchGodstruth
1.among the Persians a grand enclosure or preserve, hunting ground, park, shady and well watered, in which wild animals, were kept for the hunt; it was enclosed by walls and furnished with towers for the hunters
2.a garden, pleasure ground
a.grove, park
3.the part of Hades which was thought by the later Jews to be the abode of the souls of pious until the resurrection: but some understand this to be a heavenly paradise
4.the upper regions of the heavens. According to the early church Fathers, the paradise in which our first parents dwelt before the fall still exists, neither on the earth or in the heavens, but above and beyond the world
5.heavenThe rest of the Lexicon entry is here.
Revelation 17:5(NI
V)The name written on her forehead was a mystery: BABYLON THE GREAT THE MOTHER OF PROSTITUTES AND OF THE ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.
Kerwin! Crazy that is all I am going to say. Genesis speaks of a Paradise, and that is still with God closed to EVERYBODY, because of sin…..The tree of life is in Paradise and will become available at the end of all this age, when God Himself will come with the New Jerusalem, when we have a Renewed Heaven and Earth….we also have to remember that Satan is still the god of this earth, yet….
As far as the mystery religion goes, prophecy of Rev. 17:5 is another subject, which is available on another tread….
Peace IreneHello. to everyone, new to the site!
Lazarus and the rich man, can be taken literally in how we are to be merciful and compassionate to those less fortunate than us, but perhaps it's spiritual meaning is something much deeper. I believe God is giving us a glimpse of the holding places where people go when they die. Jesus and the thief died, Jesus told the thief, “Today you will be with me in Paradise”, Jesus said Paradise, not Heaven, so this is the indication from the story that a place called Paradise really exists.
Paradise, was for those living righteous lives, living by God's law as best as they could, but the law would always condemn them, but they made sacrifices of animals in atonement for their sins, but that was only a temporary covering.
Hades was a place of burning, not a torment to their spirit body, but the hot regret of incredible remorse, distress and guilt, for they could look across the gulf and see what they had refused or had never had awareness of.So Jesus died, the thief died, we don't know what happened to the thief's dead flesh body, but we do know Jesus body was placed in a borrowed tomb. While His flesh lay in the tomb, His spirit went to the captives in prison:
I Peter 3:
18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing , wherein few, that is, eight souls were savedby water.
21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
22Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.In Paradise and Hades, Jesus proclaimed His deity, His gospel, the gospel of grace, John 14:6, “Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me”, for every person who had died before He did, had to have a chance to accept the grace God offered, just as you and I do. Our God is fair and just, He will not lose one soul He can save, how awesome! I'm sure there were a lot crossing over to Paradise, but then there were probably those who did not, as it shall be the same at the judgment.
Jesus then came several times to the disciples, to show them He was truly alive, to give them instructions of where to go and what to do, and that He would be going to the right Hand of the Father, but would not leave them alone, that He would be sending them the Holy Spirit as Counselor and Comforter, but this would only happen after He ascended to the Father. They watched Him ascend, and were asked by two messengers why did they continue to stand there, looking up into the clouds, for as they had seen Him ascend, they would also see Him descend again, in the same way, even at the same place, the Mt. of Olives. (And they will, for they'll be coming with Him.)
It seems possible Paradise and Hades still exists, for those dying today, and these places of holding are wherever God is. Only those of God's elect are with Him in heaven, these are the saints presently under the altar, the Zadok, these are the ones which one no can pluck from His hand. But Jesus said the Father would give Him others, those saved by grace.
At His return, all living, are changed from flesh to spirit, everyone has now experienced the First Death that of the flesh, corruption(flesh body) has put on incorruption(spirit body), and the time of grace has ended. But only those of the elect and those saved by grace have moved from mortal(soul still liable to die) to immortality(soul which cannot die), their names are in the Book of Life. His elect on the earth are gathered to Him and all those saved by grace, from out of the tribulation, these are those of the First Resurrection. The earth will be cleansed by His consuming fire, but the new spirit body cannot be hurt by it. Jesus will then set up His Millenium Temple, The Zadok(elect) shall be the only ones who will administer to Him in the Temple and the saved(sheep) will camp to the right of the Temple, these will wait there, for they have no need of disciplined.
Jesus will reign for a 1000 years, He will discipline the deceived and unbelieving nations(people), that is what the rod of iron represents, all those who were in Hades and all found in spiritual adultery with the false christ at His coming, shall camp to the left of His Temple(goats), Satan shall be confined, but the goats will be able to gaze upon the deceiver.
The goats will have to do good works to achieve salvation, and come through the very last tempting by Satan. If they stand for Jesus and their works are sufficient, then at the GWT judgment, their names are written in the Book of life, these are those of the Second Resurrection, they now receive immortality for their souls.
Those still choosing Satan, will gather to him and come against Jesus and His saints to do war, but they shall be consumed, Matthew 10:28:
And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. This is what this verse is speaking of, the utter destruction of their spirit bodies, along with the souls inside them, this is the Second Death. There is no place of eternal torment, no eternal hell, only complete extinction, and for those belonging to Jesus, all memory of those lost to that destruction shall be removed from their minds, it shall be as if they had never existed at all, thus no grief, sorrow or tears.God and His Holy Temple shall descend, all things offensive are gone, done away with, heaven is on earth, God lives among His people and the eternal age begins.
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