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GOD’S KINGDOM–IS IT IN THE HEARTS OF THE PHARISEES? (Luke 17:20,21)
((THIS DISCUSSION IS BETWEEN T8 AND MYSELF ONLY. I WILL GLADLY HAVE THE SAME CONVERSATION WITH ANYONE THAT REQUESTS IT, BUT PLEASE REQUEST IT THROUGH A PM OR ELSEWHERE))
((Also, T8, the point of this discussion is to find weaknesses in thinking and to determine which understanding is more reasonable. The point is not to create ad hominem attacks against a group. It would be a logical fallacy to believe that what one group believes in any way helps or hinders a persons argument. It would also be a sign that your argument is weak and so you must fall back on logical fallacies to win favor.))At Luke 17:20,21, Jesus was asked a question by “the Pharisees.” Almost every Bible says he “answered them”–that is the Pharisees. It's clear that Jesus was directing his statements to “the Pharisees.”
–Not every single pharisee was bad. Paul had been a pharisee for example, although he changed his ways and became a Christian. (Phil 3:5)
–As a group, Jesus himself repeatedly condemned the pharisees.
–The Pharisees as a whole rejected the son of God! (Joh 7:47-49) They took council to kill him! (John 11:47-53)
–The Pharisees as a whole, are subject to Gehenna, and make others subject to Gehenna (Mat 23:15) and Jesus asks “how are you to flee from the judgment of Gehenna?” (Mat 23:33)
–Jesus called the pharisees hypocrites, serpents, offspring of vipers. (Mat 23:13-33)MATTHEW 23:13
““Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because you SHUT UP THE KINGDOM of the heavens before men; for YOU YOURSELVES DO NOT GO IN, neither do you permit those on their way in to go in.”–As for the kingdom, the pharisees as a whole “do not go in” and neither to they permit “those on their way in to go in.”
QUESTION: Does it make sense that those who shut up the kingdom of the heavens for other men, would have that very same kingdom inside themselves? Is that logical?
MATTHEW 5:20
“For I say to you that if your righteousness does not abound more than that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter into the kingdom of the heavens.”QUESTION: Based on these scriptures (Mat 23:13; 5:20), which discuss the pharisees and the kingdom, does it seem likely that the pharisees would enter the kingdom? And if the answer is “no” does it make sense that the kingdom would be “in” them?
The pharisees as whole were hypocrites, serpents, offspring of vipers, who are subject to Gehenna, and who subject others to Gehenna, and who shut up the kingdom for others, and who do not go in themselves!
QUESTION: Which is more reasonable: To believe that Jesus said the kingdom was “in” such ones, or to believe that Jesus said the kingdom was in their midst, because Jesus, the king of that kingdom was in their midst?
TRANSLATIONS
The majority of Bibles translate Luke 17:20,21 with the meaning that the kingdom was “among” or “in the midst of” the pharisees.“The kingdom of God is in your midst.” (New World Translation)
“For behold, the kingdom of God is in your midst.” (NASB)
“Because God's kingdom is already among you.” (The Message)
“For the Kingdom of God is already among you.[a]” (New Living)
“the kingdom of God is in the midst of you.”[a] (English Standard)
“the kingdom of God is in the midst of you. (Darby Translation)
“the kingdom of God is among you.” (holman)
“God's kingdom is among you.” (New International readers version)
“because the kingdom of God is in your midst.” [a] (todays new international version)
“The kingdom of God is among you” (The New English Bible)
“is in the midst of you.” (The Jerusalem Bible)
“is in the midst of you.” (Revised Standard Version)
“God’s royal majesty is among you.” (The Emphatic Diaglott)
etc.And the few Bibles that translate it the other way show that those words have more than one possible meaning:
KJ margin: “within you: or, among you.”
NIV footnote: “The kingdom of God is among you.”Jesus, who was in their midst, thus referred to himself as the future King. (Compare Mat 12:27,28)
Without question, it can be said that Jesus was “within” a group of people, among them, “in” their midst, as they asked him a question and he “answered them.” He was not using a telephone. He was among them.
ENTOS—CAN MEAN “WITHIN” OR “AMONG” (STRONGS)
Because it's a word that can mean either of these things, it comes down to context. Jesus “answered” “the Pharisees” and was speaking to them. Jesus has repeatedly condemned the Pharisees and said they shut up the kingdom for others, and that they themselves do not go in.THE BIBLE SHOWS THE KINGDOM TO BE A REAL GOVERNEMENT WITH RULERS AND SUBJECTS (Dan 2:44; Is 9:6,7; 1 Cor 15:24; Rev 1:6; 5:9,10.)
T8, you defined kingdom this way: “A governing organisation with a king at its head.” I agree. The word “kingdom” in the Bible refers to a government/empire ruled by Jesus, the king. The “holy ones” rule with Jesus. (Dan 7:18; Rev 1:6) The kingdom is a government made up of people, as governments tend to be. Just as the Canadian government is made up of people and therefore is not inside of me, neither is God's kingdom inside of the Pharisees. But if the Premiere of Canada went to the UN, someone might say: “Canada is present,” for he represents Canada, even though Canada itself is not there. (It would be impossible for Canada to actually be there, as it is impossible for God's kingdom to be literally inside of people.)
QUESTION: Even if you wanted to try to make the case that he was speaking figuratively, how is it logical that he was saying that the kingdom of God was in the hearts of the very ones who shut up the kingdom for themselves and others?COUNTER ARGUMENTS:
“Jesus did say that he was in the Father”–T8
Okay, but we are concerned with whether the KINGDOM is within the PHARISEES or whether it's among the pharisees. (See scriptures about the pharisees and the kingdom)LUKE 17:20
“The kingdom of God is not coming with striking observableness” (NWT)
“The kingdom of God does not come with your careful observation,” (NIV)
“The Kingdom of God can't be detected by visible signs.” (NLT)
“The kingdom of God is not coming with signs to be observed,” (ESV; NASB)
“The Kingdom of God commeth not with observation.” (KJ)
“The kingdom of God is not coming with a visible display.” (ISV)Jesus as King represents the kingdom. Imagine for a second the king standing before you and you not knowing who he is, ask him when the kingdom is arriving. (This would be somewhat ironic, laughable, foolish….but it was the pharisees, so our expectations aren't high.)
The Pharisees believe that the kingdom will come with great pomp and ceremony, but Jesus says: The kingdom of God is not coming with observation, or signs to be observed, neither will people be saying, ‘See here!’ or, ‘There!’ For, look! the kingdom of God is in your midst.
The “for look” part should give us a clue. “For” is a conjunction, and in the Greek it means the same as in English. It does involve a continuation of thought. Jesus is EXPLAINING his first statement. Let me translate my understanding for you:
Pharisees: When is the kingdom coming?
NOTE: Jesus did not actually answer “when” but made a point:
The King: It's not coming with striking a observableness. FOR LOOK FOOLS! I'm standing right here, in your midst, among you. (a few older Bible's translate this “within you.”)Or, if you prefer, The kingdom's right here, in your midst. Either way, Jesus represented the kingdom and was
right among them, in front of their very faces.Jesus didn't come with any great show.
MATTHEW 21:5
““Tell the daughter of Zion, ‘Look! Your King is coming to you, mild-tempered, and mounted upon an ass, yes, upon a colt, the offspring of a beast of burden.’””I know that when we read Luke 17:20,21, we think of the kingdom coming in the future. But based on Jesus answer about the kingdom being right in front of them, in their midst, I don't think that's a good take. Think this scripture:
MATTHEW 12:28
“But if it is by means of God’s spirit that I expel the demons, the kingdom of God has really overtaken YOU.”These are most of the things I wanted to say. I am mostly curious about the “QUESTIONS” I asked.
David
((THIS DISCUSSION IS BETWEEN T8 AND MYSELF ONLY.))
This is my main argument:
QUESTION: Does it make sense that those who shut up the kingdom of the heavens for other men, would have that very same kingdom inside themselves? Is that logical?
I do not see any way to make that logically fit together.
1. The Pharisees are said to shut up the kingdom so that they don't go in, and they shut it up for others so that others don't go in. (Mat 23:13)
2. The Pharisees have the kingdom “within” themselves.
Logically, can both ideas be true?
T8,
Should this perhaps be moved to the “debate” section? (THIS DISCUSSION IS BETWEEN T8 AND MYSELF ONLY.)
T8,
I think I put this in the wrong category. It should be in the “debate” category. I put it here, because I was having this same conversation with 3 people at the same time, and it seemed to you that I kept avoiding certain things and it seemed to me that you and others kept ignoring certain things. Maybe I'm not sure of what the difference is between the hot seat and the debate, but I am beginning to think this belongs in the debate section. Maybe more accountability.
T8, I originally posted this 4 months ago for you, but I'm thinking if you moved it to the debate section, you would notice it better.
I guess i could just re-create it there myself. Let me know.
DAVID
Quote I know that when we read Luke 17:20,21, we think of the kingdom coming in the future. But based on Jesus answer about the kingdom being right in front of them, in their midst, I don't think that's a good take. Think this scripture: MATTHEW 12:28
“But if it is by means of God’s spirit that I expel the demons, the kingdom of God has really overtaken YOU.”I believe that the kingdom start with Christ the king, and that he came mainly to fulfill his father will and so became the king of his father kingdom,and instructing his new brothers that will be redeemed from earth ,I also believe that the Jews ad the first take for the position of being in heaven and this is what Christ I think meant in Mat;12-28 just as a similar way with Peter wen Jesus ask him who you think I am ? and Peter answered you are the son of the living God ,but the clergy was not in line with God at all ,more with Rome than God,
Pierre
OK, if I am allowed, I am going to change this hot seat thing to be someone else.
Is there any one person out there who wants to discuss this, one on one? (T8 included)?
Quote (david @ Feb. 13 2012,20:38) OK, if I am allowed, I am going to change this hot seat thing to be someone else. Is there any one person out there who wants to discuss this, one on one? (T8 included)?
DavidI would if you allow me
Ok Pierre. For the remainder of this particular thread, I am only going to comment to posts you make.
For me, this seems so straightforward, which is why it bothers me enough to create this thread and to want to discuss it with one person at a time. I had been having a conversation with t8 and a few other people at the same time about 4 months back. That's when I created this thread.
When I look at the questions I ask (labeled “QUESTION) I can't see how this could be understood any other way. And for me, it seems these questions are avoided.
You pretty much know what I believe because I have posted it.
David
Quote (david @ Feb. 13 2012,22:24) Ok Pierre. For the remainder of this particular thread, I am only going to comment to posts you make. For me, this seems so straightforward, which is why it bothers me enough to create this thread and to want to discuss it with one person at a time. I had been having a conversation with t8 and a few other people at the same time about 4 months back. That's when I created this thread.
When I look at the questions I ask (labeled “QUESTION) I can't see how this could be understood any other way. And for me, it seems these questions are avoided.
You pretty much know what I believe because I have posted it.
David
Davidyea we believe much of the same thing ,
Quote (terraricca @ Feb. 13 2012,15:41) Quote (david @ Feb. 13 2012,22:24) Ok Pierre. For the remainder of this particular thread, I am only going to comment to posts you make. For me, this seems so straightforward, which is why it bothers me enough to create this thread and to want to discuss it with one person at a time. I had been having a conversation with t8 and a few other people at the same time about 4 months back. That's when I created this thread.
When I look at the questions I ask (labeled “QUESTION) I can't see how this could be understood any other way. And for me, it seems these questions are avoided.
You pretty much know what I believe because I have posted it.
David
Davidyea we believe much of the same thing ,
Well then, that doesn't make this much of a “hot seat”SEEKINGTRUTH, you are up.
If I am wrong, may I ask: Why?
David,
I haven't been keeping up with this topic so actually I think we need to define Kingdom of Heaven first.I believe it is a body of people submitted to God's will, starting even while in the flesh the Kingdom is being built right in the midst of satan's domain. It is the beginning of Christ's ultimate Kingdom to be established during His 1,000 year reign.
So my first question is how do you define it.
Wm
Quote (seekingtruth @ Feb. 13 2012,16:17) David,
I haven't been keeping up with this topic so actually I think we need to define Kingdom of Heaven first.I believe it is a body of people submitted to God's will, starting even while in the flesh the Kingdom is being built right in the midst of satan's domain. It is the beginning of Christ's ultimate Kingdom to be established during His 1,000 year reign.
So my first question is how do you define it.
Wm
Hi seeking truthThis is the discussion I actually want to be having. I think I've laid everything out in my first post:
“A governing organisation with a king at its head.”…. The word “kingdom” in the Bible refers to a government/empire ruled by Jesus, the king. The “holy ones” rule with Jesus. (Dan 7:18; Rev 1:6) The kingdom is a government made up of people, as governments tend to be. Just as the Canadian government is made up of people and therefore is not inside of me, neither is God's kingdom inside of the Pharisees. But if the Premiere of Canada went to the UN, someone might say: “Canada is present,” for he represents Canada, even though Canada itself is not there. (It would be impossible for Canada to actually be there, as it is impossible for God's kingdom to be literally inside of people.)”
And it is often called the kingdom of heaven, because it is ruled from heaven, with it's authority coming from heaven.
You said: “I believe it is a body of people…”
If you recognize that the kingdom is made up of people, then I think we most likely will agree on this subject.
david.
This is the first time I have seen this.
I don't read all topics, but you could have alerted me via a PM.I can reply of you like.
Regardless, I am moving this to the debate section.
The Hot Seat is more suitable for avoided questions and is kind of like the Supreme Court where to take someone to task in the highest forum in the board.If the person refuses to answer the question, then we can all assume that they do not have an answer.
Hi T8. Yes, please do respond. I created this thread thinking it would be a debate. Not sure why I put it in the hot seat. (I've never used either category before.) 4 months ago, I was having a simultaneous conversation with you and 2 other people, whom, I can't remember. I decided too much was being ignored, where you guys (and myself perhaps) only focused on the others weak arguments and not the strong ones. So, I created this thread, hoping there would be no place to hide, as you say.
THIS IS NOW A DEBATE BETWEEN T8 AND MYSELF ONLY, as it was created to be.
DaviD
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