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Quote (Lightenup @ June 03 2011,22:45)
The Father was not able to offer eternal salvation apart from His Son, was He?
You are confusing the fact that God CHOSE a particular way and vessle through which to save us with your mistaken view that God WAS NOT ABLE to do it any other way.You are putting limitations on the One who created the heavens, the earth, and everything in them – INCLUDING Jesus according to Acts 4, Col 1:15, Rev 3:14 Proverbs 8, Micah 5, etc.
Kathi, consider that Jesus will destroy his enemies ONLY because his God will place them at his feet first. Consider that Jesus has been GIVEN his might and authority by the One who has always been Almighty – with or without Jesus.
God does not “become” Almighty because He gave power to Michael or Gabriel or Jesus or Moses. God was already Almighty before he gave whatever power those others have TO THEM. Jesus has power because his Almighty God GAVE IT TO HIM.
Quote (Lightenup @ June 03 2011,22:45)
Again, God was always 'Almighty' God because the Son always existed with Him and their Spirit.
This is unscriptural and illogical. What happened to the Kathi that searched the scriptures? Who is this new person who is grabbing thoughts out of thin air and claiming them as fact?
mike
Quote (Istari @ June 04 2011,09:50) And Keith,
Judas also assembled himself in the twelve with Jesus!
And Satan also assembled himself with the Sons of God!Kathi does say that SHE did any of those things – just that OTHERS did!
JASo what is your point? Maybe she doesn't want the right hand to know what the left is doing.
Maybe she is being modest and not boasting about her own works.
The point is her church as the majority of the churches today are the main reason people are getting saved, healed, fed, and the needs of the poor being met.
Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world. James 1:27
If you want to call that satans works, have at it.
WJ
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 05 2011,10:12) Quote (Istari @ June 04 2011,09:50) And Keith,
Judas also assembled himself in the twelve with Jesus!
And Satan also assembled himself with the Sons of God!Kathi does say that SHE did any of those things – just that OTHERS did!
JASo what is your point? Maybe she doesn't want the right hand to know what the left is doing.
Maybe she is being modest and not boasting about her own works.
The point is her church as the majority of the churches today are the main reason people are getting saved, healed, fed, and the needs of the poor being met.
Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world. James 1:27
If you want to call that satans works, have at it.
WJ
WJJn 12:4 But one of his disciples, Judas Iscariot, who was later to betray him, objected,
Jn 12:5 “Why wasn’t this perfume sold and the money given to the poor? It was worth a year’s wages.’”
Jn 12:6 He did not say this because he cared about the poor but because he was a thief; as keeper of the money bag, he used to help himself to what was put into it.just think to all outsiders Judas what one of Jesus disciples,
and so be quoted as a godly men,but was he ?Pierre
WJ
Jas 1:27 Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world.
PURE means with a pure intention,with a pure heart,with pure mind,pure action,
if you participate in a lie is that pure ?
if you do it for personnal gains is that pure ?
if you show all what you give is that pure ?Pierre
Keith,
You defend what you do not know!You are an expert at creating diversion!
Kathi is making claims of godliness by stating what OTHERS have done.
You state that being in the assembly of such makes Kathi one such also.
I state that just being in the assembly DOES NOT automatically make her 'as of' the assembly as shown by the two examples.ThAT WAS NOT the time for MODESTY if that was her point!!
Her Sons and the church may well be doing those things – I am not judging them.
'Not all who say 'Lord Lord' will enter through the door of life'.Quote (Lightenup @ June 04 2011,00:03) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 03 2011,14:28) Quote (SimplyForgiven @ June 03 2011,14:17) Mike,
I agree with the whole church thing.
todays churchs are unscriptural
Hi DennisonSorry you feel that way. But how can you make a blanket statement like that about all churches? Have you been to all of them?
The majority of people getting saved, healed, and the feeding of the hungry and meeting the needs of the poor come through these so called unscriptural churches you condemn.
If that church had not have been there me getting saved would not have happened and I may have been lost.
WJ
I agree Keith.I was able to take a meal and pray for a lady from church just yesterday who was recently diagnosed with an incurable disease.
My pastor was saying this Sunday how God used him to go to another country and speak and lay out the plan of salvation to the room full of people. When he asked if anyone wanted this, to raise their hand and the whole room raised their hand. My pastor says that he is not an evangelist and is very cautious not to stir up the emotions of people and thus have some emotional response. He knew it was God at work.
My two sons recently gave a benefit concert for their friends from church who were leaving the next day to go to Honduras to dig wells for people so they could have clean water.
One woman at church has a ministry for the single mothers in the area. Another man from church came here less than a year ago to pick up some of my furniture that I donated to a housing complex where living conditions are deplorable according to our standards. Wednesday night a friend told me that the Lord has her spending time with her young neighbor every week during the summer to help him learn to read. His parents are going through an ugly divorce and the child is having a very hard time learning. Also, every week this summer the church is providing the 'Truth Project' to equip the church…no charge to anyone. The room was packed with people wanting to learn. My church has a ministry for the disabled children so that their parents can come to church and know that their disabled child has a place to be loved and taught about the Lord. There are children outreaches, worldwide ministries, short term mission trips going on quite often. And I could go on and on about the benefits of church.
I am confident that in all these ministries, people are being taught about God the Father as well as His Son and the Spirit that can guide them in their walk. They aren't just learning about Jesus.
Kathi
Keith is the one with the discernment, not Istari…way to go Keith
That post about my church was not about my godliness, good grief. It was about the value of church and how it is serving the body of Christ and the community and the outer most parts of the earth. Go church of Christ! The church rocks!
Mike,
You don't seem to be able to discern between the man of the one who was both God and man and between the God of the one who was both God and man. It was the man that needed the power, etc., the Son had the power of God by nature.Quote You are putting limitations on the One who created the heavens, the earth, and everything in them – INCLUDING Jesus according to Acts 4, Col 1:15, Rev 3:14 Proverbs 8, Micah 5, etc. In Acts 4, the Lord here is likely referring to the Godhead, the word 'Christ' is likely emphasizing the 'man' of the one that came and was both God, as the Son and Man.
Col 1:15, the firstborn tells us that He was born, one who gets born was one that existed within before being born.
Rev 3:14 Of course bringing the creator's helper forth before creation would be the beginning of the process of creation.
Proverbs 8 has a word that is translated as 'possessed' which is a better translation.
Micah 5:
In the end of the days, He was to go forth from Bethlehem; but, lest he should be thought then to have had His Being, the prophet adds, His 'goings forth are from everlasting.'” Here words, denoting eternity and used of the eternity of God, are united together to impress the belief of the Eternity of God the Son.You are right about God not becoming Almighty and that is why I believe in an eternal Son. The eternal Son is a reason God is Almighty.
Kathi
Kathi,
Then what value are you bringing to us – for ALL mainstream CHURCHES proclaim to be serving God thtough Christ – and so they should – what exactly are you telling us?It's like saying that sunshine is warming – or that water is wet!
Quote (Lightenup @ June 04 2011,14:25)
It was the man that needed the power, etc., the Son had the power of God by nature.
Really? Then why now, AFTER Jesus has been exalted, does he STILL wait for his God to place his enemies at his feet?Quote (Lightenup @ June 04 2011,14:25)
In Acts 4, the Lord here is likely referring to the Godhead, the word 'Christ' is likely emphasizing the 'man' of the one that came and was both God, as the Son and Man.
Where is the SCRIPTURAL support for your understanding that “God” and “Sovereign Lord” refer to a “Godhead”, Kathi? Are you saying they prayed TO the “Godhead”, of which Jesus is a part, yet prayed THROUGH Jesus? Quote (Lightenup @ June 04 2011,14:25)
Col 1:15, the firstborn tells us that He was born, one who gets born was one that existed within before being born.
True, and before that one exists within, there is a time when he didn't exist at all. Don't stop half way through with your logic. Also, what does OF CREATION imply? If Adam was the “100th-born” OF CREATION”, wouldn't you assume that Adam was a PART of creation?Quote (Lightenup @ June 04 2011,14:25)
Rev 3:14 Of course bringing the creator's helper forth before creation would be the beginning of the process of creation.
And just HOW was the “Creator's helper” brought forth? Proverbs 8 says he was CREATED as the first of God's works.Quote (Lightenup @ June 04 2011,14:25)
Proverbs 8 has a word that is translated as 'possessed' which is a better translation.
NO, it's NOT a “better translation”, as I've shown you clear evidence of. Unless you mean to say “possessed” better serves your own doctrine.Quote (Lightenup @ June 04 2011,14:25)
Micah 5:
In the end of the days, He was to go forth from Bethlehem; but, lest he should be thought then to have had His Being, the prophet adds, His 'goings forth are from everlasting.'” Here words, denoting eternity and used of the eternity of God, are united together to impress the belief of the Eternity of God the Son.
And once again, refer to the LXX, Kathi. The word is “aion”, which we KNOW can't mean “eternity” because of Matthew 28:20. And don't ignore the word “arche”, which speaks of Jesus' BEGINNING.Kathi, we've been through all of this. Your claims are simply not taught or even supported by any scripture. End of story.
Quote (Istari @ June 04 2011,14:47) Kathi,
Then what value are you bringing to us – for ALL mainstream CHURCHES proclaim to be serving God thtough Christ – and so they should – what exactly are you telling us?It's like saying that sunshine is warming – or that water is wet!
Lately she seems to be telling us that sunshine is wet and water is warming.Mike,
I have given up discussing Jesus-God with her as she is totally lost. WE are driving her to defend her deceitful and unscriptural ideas and it's best to stop – I get a headache from understanding her misconceptions – it's not helped by WJ backing her up even when he doesn't actually believe what she is saying… Just posting again us for the sake of it!!Jesus was eternally living inside God before he, God, gave birth to him so that makes God an Eternal father – Says Kathi!!
And there are two people called 'YHVH' when God says '[the] LORD says …xyzzy…' says [the] LORD.
It shows how deluded a desparate mind can go if one is determined enough.
Istari, do you anything to offer us besides this juvenile campaign of invective?
In another thread, I put this challenge to you:
Quote By my count you asked 10 questions here and I'm guessing the post took you about 10 minutes to write. At 10 minutes a question it's going to take me over an hour and a half to answer them all. I don't mind doing that as long as i'm afforded the same opportunity to interogate your christology and pneumatology. Can I ask that you make concise statement of these doctrines, expressing your understanding of identity, nature and origin of Yeshua and the Holy Spirit. Then I'll prepare some questions for you to answer.
I note that you failed to respond. Since you seem to specialise in Ad hominem-based attack, I wonder how competently you can defend the key planks of your theology. Let's see how Istari's christology and pneumatology holds up to a little scrutiny. Perhaps we could do this in the debate thread where there will be no distractions.Keen?
Awaiting your answer with anticipation.
Mike,
If Micah 5:2 is teaching that the Son had a beginning, then Habakkuk 1:12 is saying the same about YHVH. The same word is used in each verse.Micah 5:2 “But as for you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, Too little to be among the clans of Judah, From you One will go forth for Me to be ruler in Israel. His goings forth are from long ago, From the days of eternity.”
Habakkuk 1:12 Are You not from everlasting, O LORD, my God, my Holy One? We will not die. You, O LORD, have appointed them to judge; And You, O Rock, have established them to correct.
Kathi, the same Hebrew words are used to describe YHWH's eternality in Isa 63:16.
Isaiah 63:16
Doubtless thou art our father,1 though Abraham be ignorant, of us, and Israel acknowledge us not: thou, O LORD, art our father, our redeemer; thy name is from everlasting.[4480, 5769 Heb. ‛ôlâm ‛ôlâm]Ha, Paul…touche'
We each found a verse that both speak of YHVH being from everlasting with two different words which are both found in Micah 5:2 which Mike claims Jesus had a beginning because of those two words.
If they prove Jesus had a beginning, then he has to say that YHVH had a beginning also, which we know He didn't. Good job!
Time to get some sleep…church in the morning!
What a mighty God we serve!!
Blessings,
KathiQuote (WorshippingJesus @ June 04 2011,00:28) Quote (SimplyForgiven @ June 03 2011,14:17) Mike,
I agree with the whole church thing.
todays churchs are unscriptural
Hi DennisonSorry you feel that way. But how can you make a blanket statement like that about all churches? Have you been to all of them?
The majority of people getting saved, healed, and the feeding of the hungry and meeting the needs of the poor come through these so called unscriptural churches you condemn.
If that church had not have been there me getting saved would not have happened and I may have been lost.
WJ
Hi WJ,
I could blanket a statment like that about all general churchs based on a few observational points.
1. The Christian churchs as a whole are seperated by denomations on every corner.
2. Each church has its own unique name made up, or based on location.
3. Each church is lead by ONE PERSON, or a Parlimentry procedure, or the people of the church themselves.
4. Each Church requieres memberships,
5. Each Church listens the interpretation from one person.
6. Each church has a pulpit
7. Each church is congregated to a certain building
8. Each Church works primarly inside the building.And Etc.
Most of Todays churchs consist of at least one of the many of these points that are unscriptural and totally produce by a carnal goverment.I could tell you that at least in alll the churchs that i have been too here in Houston, Tx are unscripatually sound and are decieving many people because they are ignorant.
The Majority of people getting saved? I doubt that. How do you know they are saved? Salvation is something much more than what the church offers.
Healed? Many people are healed, and are sick again, i wonder why? Feeding the hungry? so what?so do Muslims, Jehovah witnesses, Catholics, and so many other religions probably do MORE, than what a typical evangical church does.
So WHAT?
Its not condemning, im just stating the plain truth that they are unscripatural and have nothing to do with the True Gospel, there is so much more.
Its a harlot, a counterfiet.
God used the Pharaoh for his Glory,
God rose up nations to destory Israel,
God sent a Whale to eat Jonah,What than? is it not possible that God can even speak through a donkey so that his will May be Done?
Than its safe to say that though many people including myself found refuge within the church by the will of God, only to mold us for something better.
You only know what is, by what it is not.
You cant know Hot without cold, and cannot know light without darkness.
how else would you know what the true Church of Christ is, if you havent been part of the counterfiet gospel?The Church is not God, but God can establish his own temple in you very heart that must be circumsized by Christ, so that he may be your God, and you His people.
I believe in Congregation my friend, just not in the way you do it. Jesus made it clear that there most be a fellowship of believers, but not what Men have corrupted and manipulated it what it is now.
Its just the plain truth, and I know because I have lived it already, and will continue to live through more trials as I get older.
For clarity sake,
Dennison
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