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Quote (Lightenup @ June 02 2011,14:13) I take it Istari, that you don't read the commentary of the experts to compare your understanding to. You would not be able to say this was me deluding myself. See, I read the scriptures with a teachable heart, then confirm my understanding with respected commentaries. You should try it.
Amen, and well said!
WJ
Quote (SimplyForgiven @ June 02 2011,14:33) The Father could not be, unless there is a Son. its a depending role, and for there to be a Son there must be a Father, another depending role that has requierements. The scriptures state that God isnt dependant on anything he is omnipotent.
just my two cents on the matter
Yes Dennison-son,
It is elementary!Keith, thanks
Blessings,
KathiSF,
I have no idea what you just said!Kathi,
I have no idea what you just said!Who IS the FATHER?
God is the Father
Jesus is the Son of the Father
The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of the FatherThe Father is God
Jesus is the Son of God
The Holy Spirit is the 'Spirit of Truth' of GodWho is God the Father?
1) Jesus is the Son of God, YHVH, The One True God
2) Jesus is the Son of the Father, YHVH, the One True God
.: The Father is the One True GodSF,
Before there was a Son there was no Father!Yes, for there to be a Son there must be a father
Yes, for there to be a father there must be a SonA Son comes from a Father – for the Son to come from the Father there first must be HE WHO IS NOT YET A FATHER…
Who WAS HE from Whom the Son came?
If Jesus is the SON OF GOD, then the one from who the Son came IS God.
Therefore the one who WAS NOT the father before the Son was – IS God!— God is the Father of the Son of God —
Istari,
How do you know that the Son wasn't always IN the Father before He came out of the Father? I have proven that when the offspring is alive within the parent…the parent is the parent just as much then as after the birth. If someone sees a pregnant woman and asks her who the father is, there is a sure answer that someone is the father at that point. It is different with God since God is not like man or woman but the idea is similar. The offspring within the parent, causes one to be 'a parent'…the offspring comes out of the parent then the work of the parent and offspring brought that offspring out of the parent and the parent is still the parent.Elementary dear Istari!
Kathi
Quote (Lightenup @ June 02 2011,00:06) Quote “Worship Jehovah your God, and serve Him ONLY” is a pretty straightforward command. It shouldn't be to hard to follow it, Jehovah is two persons, one that was seen by Abraham and one that is unseen. Yes, Mike, we should worship Jehovah our God (singular), the Son with the Father, both (not a word that is used to refer to a single God) are called Jehovah.
And this is His name by which He will be called,
‘Jehovah our righteousness.’Kathi
Jehovah our God is ONE Kathi. Not TWO. Scripture says so.And the nation of Israel was also called “Jehovah our Righteousness”, right? Was the nation of Israel also literally named “Jehovah”?
Besides Kathi, you have stated your belief we have TWO separate, co-equal, co-eternal Gods. Yet now you are wording it as if we have only ONE God. Which is it?
Quote (SimplyForgiven @ June 02 2011,13:33) The Father could not be, unless there is a Son.
You left out some words, D. You should have said the Father could not be A FATHER unless there is a Son. The One we now know as “the Father” most assuredly could have existed way before He decided to beget a son, you know.What scripture tells us God was eternally “a Father”?
What's wrong with you people? When has a son ever existed from the moment his father did? The very term “son” indicates one who was brought forth from another at some time during the existence of the other.
What – you guys think that for some reason, two co-equal, co-eternal beings who have always existed side by side, for some reason came up with the titles “father” and “son” to distinguish themselves from each other? WHY?
Why not “Co-God”, or “Co-Jehovah” or “Partners” or “Brothers” or something? Why “father” and “son”?The things you guys come up with make me laugh so hard. But at the same time my heart cries because of your heartfelt delusions.
I pray for understanding from God about God for all of you,
mikeQuote (Lightenup @ June 02 2011,17:05) Istari,
How do you know that the Son wasn't always IN the Father before He came out of the Father?
Kathi,How do YOU know he WAS?
Quote (Istari @ June 03 2011,03:39) SF,
Before there was a Son there was no Father!Yes, for there to be a Son there must be a father
Yes, for there to be a father there must be a SonA Son comes from a Father – for the Son to come from the Father there first must be HE WHO IS NOT YET A FATHER…
Who WAS HE from Whom the Son came?
If Jesus is the SON OF GOD, then the one from who the Son came IS God.
Therefore the one who WAS NOT the father before the Son was – IS God!— God is the Father of the Son of God —
Istari,
Sometimes your wierd… just sayin….
Anyways, You made three post that two seemed were for me, and the one in the middle seemed to be for idk?Quote SF,
I have no idea what you just said!
Umm than re-read it?Anyways, Maybe I should re-introduce the point I was trying to make.
God at one point was not a Father, The Father is a temporal role.
In other words my comment wasnt really… agreeing with Kathi. though maybe because you guys pre-judged the post, ya got confuzzled.
God was not always the Father, its as simple as that, because he is omnipotent and doesnt depend on anything to be Who he is, which God Almighty.Now do you agree with what I said, or can we continue?
Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 03 2011,05:50) Quote (SimplyForgiven @ June 02 2011,13:33) The Father could not be, unless there is a Son.
You left out some words, D. You should have said the Father could not be A FATHER unless there is a Son. The One we now know as “the Father” most assuredly could have existed way before He decided to beget a son, you know.What scripture tells us God was eternally “a Father”?
Mike,
Your getting wierd also.. maybe you prejudged my comment. You should re-read it.I never said that just becasue God is called the father, means he was a Father eteranlly. That doesnt make any sense.
God was not always the Father.
So the rest of the nonsense you wrote doesnt apply to me.JuSt sAyIn
Mike,
Their oneness consists of more than one person.Also, if God was always Almighty, then He was never without His Son and their Spirit. Which way is God more mighty…with the Son or without the Son? With the Son, right? A no brainer. So, if God was always ALMIGHTY, then He always had the Son. He didn't go from 'mighty' to 'almighty' as God. The Son and the Spirit's existence within the Father may be why the Father can be said to be Almighty. With the Son, God can be both seen and unseen, near and far, heard and not heard. With the Spirit, the Father can search all things and dwell in all believers. The Father has more powers with both the Son and their Spirit than without them. He either always had the Son and the Spirit or else He became more powerful when He attained them than before without either of them.
Now, can you show me something that says that the Son wasn't always IN the Father before He came out of the Father?
Kathi,
No offense, but your post is nonsensical fluff. God would be equally Almighty whether or not He ever beget a Son. How is it that you've come to the conclusion that God in any way NEEDS Jesus?
God is self-sufficient and NEEDS no one. How does God GIVING all power and authority to His Son somehow make Him more mighty?
God is the source of ALL power, and having His Son with him does not allow Him to “power up” to the next level.
Quote Now, can you show me something that says that the Son wasn't always IN the Father before He came out of the Father?
I'm not the one making UNFOUNDED claims here, Kathi. It is on YOU to show ME something that says the Son WAS always in the Father. If you can't, then don't claim it.For example, I could claim that Jesus looks like a rainbow colored unicorn. YOU can't possibly find a scripture that disproves this, but it wouldn't be on YOU to find that scripture. It would be on the one making the unfounded claim to show scriptural support FOR that claim.
So don't make your claim and ask ME to DISPROVE IT. It is YOU who needs to show scriptural support FOR your claim – or stop claiming it.
peace,
mikeMike,
you said:
Quote God would be equally Almighty whether or not He ever beget a Son. How is it that you've come to the conclusion that God in any way NEEDS Jesus? God is self-sufficient and NEEDS no one. How does God GIVING all power and authority to His Son somehow make Him more mighty?
Could God be a Father of a proper offspring without Jesus?
Was God a Father of a proper offspring without Jesus?
Could God be His own image?
Was God His own image?
How could God be His own image?
Could God make a covenant of grace by Himself?
Did God make a covenant of grace by Himself?
How does one make a covenant with themself?
Could God be heard by man and not heard by man at the same time?
How could God be heard by man and say that no man has heard Him?
Did God save the world from sin by Himself?
How did God save the world from sin by Himself?God is more able with the Son than without the Son, as you should have been able to see. Thus, with the Son, God is mightier, more able, than without the Son. Therefore, the Son makes God mightier, more able. Take away the Son and God is less mighty than with the Son.
Also, you believe that the Son was begotten before the ages. He had to be in the Father before He could be begotten from the Father. Otherwise, it wouldn't be a begetting. I believe He was always IN the Father until He beget Him. The Father was always Almighty because of the Son IN Him.
Kathi
Quote How could God be heard by man and say that no man has heard Him?
There should be a thread about that? Just sayin.Quote (Lightenup @ June 03 2011,06:53) Mike,
Their oneness consists of more than one person.Also, if God was always Almighty, then He was never without His Son and their Spirit. Which way is God more mighty…with the Son or without the Son? With the Son, right? A no brainer. So, if God was always ALMIGHTY, then He always had the Son. He didn't go from 'mighty' to 'almighty' as God. The Son and the Spirit's existence within the Father may be why the Father can be said to be Almighty. With the Son, God can be both seen and unseen, near and far, heard and not heard. With the Spirit, the Father can search all things and dwell in all believers. The Father has more powers with both the Son and their Spirit than without them. He either always had the Son and the Spirit or else He became more powerful when He attained them than before without either of them.
Now, can you show me something that says that the Son wasn't always IN the Father before He came out of the Father?
Lu,
The only thing that doesnt make sense about your post is that you believe that the Father and the Son are seperate persons of one God, which would be a fallacy on your part.Why? because a Father is dependant state when we know that God is omnipotent, which means he never needed anyone else.
Because He is omnipotent one cannot state that “He was always a Father” The same way that a Woman was not always a mother.
A Woman always had potential to be a mother,
And God always had the potential to be the Father, but that didnt happen until God took that role.Other than that its pure speculation to think otherwise.
SF,
I said I didn't understand what you said because I didn't understand what you said…As you have now explained then it makes some kinda sense.
Also, I said 'Yes, the father is not a father until he has a Son'
Kathi is so far off the scale of delusion and misunderstanding that it is unreal and she is scary!
I agree that God was not always a father : Trinity killer…
God was alone when he decided to create the heavens and the earth.
Scriptures says that God brought forth WISDOM at the start of his creation – other verses elsewhere say that God created the heavens and the earth BY HIS WISDOM AND POWER.
Can someone say that God did not have wisdom before he brought it forth – or is the meaning that he MADE USE OF HIS WISDOM?
God, also had the POTENTIAL to create offspring from himself but Kathi's delusion is she thinks God 'Carried' a child inside like a woman and then plopped him out…
Maybe this is why Shimmer pointed out that Women should not speak in the Assembly… They are mostly EMOTIONALLY DRIVEN – which is EXACTLY what I have said that both KATHI and IRENE lean on.
Kathi has created an emotional image of God carrying a child inside him and LOVES THE CUDDLY THOUGHT…so no matter what evidence is presented to her she just dismisses it saying 'Not listening – not listening – can't hear you – can't hear you -!! If I let go of this NICE BUT DELUSIONAL IDEA then I am lost : I need to LOVE JESUS as if I gave birth to him – A Woman'Kathi, there was no such thing as WOMAN until Eve WHO was created from a part of Adam – God first created MAN (the ADAM : Mankind). Only after the Adam said he did not see any of the animals as companions did God take a part of him and create another WHO WAS THEN CALLED 'WOMAN – for she was BROUGHT OUT OF MAN' literaly 'Wombed Man'!
Kathi, God most certainly had the thought of a Son – and, Kathi, SONS, for all Angels are SONS OF GOD… how come you don't say that God incubated the Angels, too!
Because it voids your deluded argument…God had the thought of Physical matter – the Heavens (Galactic Space)and the Earth and all within.
So, then God incubated the Heavens and the Earth also…Fair enough… But then your whole argument is void!!! For there was a time when the heavens and earth where not created… Or tell me different?
If Jesus was ETERNALLY in the Father… Ha!!
If The Son was eternally in the father – then heaven and earth and the Angrls and mankind and the animals and everything – was ALSO ETERNALLY CREATED INSIDE THE FATHER…Kathi, once again you use a HUMAN ANALOGY for speaking of God – Do not do this…!!
'God is NOT A MAN'Also, Kathi, what kind of nonsense are you writing by saying God could not be God without the Son?
The Father could not be the father without the Son.It is evident in itself that there is no father without the Son!
Not one single person argues against that – your point is twisted to create your own delusion.Before the Son was there was ALWAYS GOD…
Then God had a Son – and became THE FATHER…You start AFTER GOD BECAME A FATHER then Argue that God could not possibly have EXISTED!!
I think God would disaGree with you on that –A man is still a man even if he is not a father…
A man becomes a father after he has a son…(an offspring)Kathi, you need not even answer as I am done with this nonsense… You are either having a great laugh in writing your nonsense – or you are weeping in each desparate defence of your nonsense.
Quote (Istari @ June 03 2011,18:49) Kathi is so far off the scale of delusion and misunderstanding that it is unreal and she is scary!
To the moderators:-Are personal attacks like this acceptable here?!?
These is zero tolerance given to behavior like this in other forums I've visited. Can someone sort this please?
Hi Paul,
I completely agree with you. However, when we read the insults from others, we learn their character. We know that is not Spirit led. God doesn't inspire others to condemn. The insults are just verification of one who condemns. Therefore, in a way, it is encouraging me to continue in my understanding since it is satan who condemns and not God. Satan leaves people alone who are not a threat to him. So, although I don't hope for insults, they too tell me about the person dishing them out. I'm sure those with the Spirit can see that on here. The one who condemns others holds up a big red flag as to who is inspiring them, imo.Again, I appreciate your discernment.
Kathi
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