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Kathi,
When you trap yourself in the web – don't struggle – it only traps you more…You know well that what I said was truth…
You well see your error – that what you said was what I said you said even though you didn't realise that was what you were saying… But now you do know!
What does t8's footer say:'He who learns of his error but continues in that error cannot be claim to be innocent of the error!'
There is one God the Father. He is the true God.
Theos as applied to anyone else, (including Jesus) is not meant to be taken as the eternal one true God.
Theos has other legitimate uses, just as adam and devil do. But the one true theos is applied to the Father exclusively just as there is one Devil and one Adam. (Yes there is a second one, but only because of failure was that passed to another).
No doctrine can change the truth that the Father is the one true God because this truth is eternal, and any opposing doctrine will simply vanish in time as all things related to this world will.Quote (Lightenup @ May 30 2011,23:47) If you were all about the truth now, you wouldn't keep implying that I agree with the 'a god' idea you want to spin off on us. So when you lie about what I say, then don't tell me you are 'addicted to truth.' If you were truthful you would not keep saying something that you know is NOT true.
Wow. That's pretty harsh isn't it?
Kathi, didn't you tell me that there are TWO gods mentioned in John 1:1? If only one of them is “THE God”, then the other one is NOT “THE God”, but instead ANOTHER god, and therefore “A god” who is not “THE God”.
I haven't “LIED” about anything, and I think you might owe me an apology here, sister.
Quote (Lightenup @ May 31 2011,00:01) So, if you were seriously looking for truth, the historical documents and the early church father's writings and the scholars' common understanding………….
It is because I SERIOUSLY look for truth that I form my understanding around the scriptures only, Kathi.Many of those writers who you value so highly are the same ones whose words have ended up leading people to worship Mary as the Mother of God. The antichrist/man of lawlessness was already working hard even while the Apostles were still alive, so just because the writing is from the era of the Apostles doesn't mean it is correct. Some of Jesus' own disciples turned against him and started teaching falsehoods even before he died, if I remember right.
Here's a test, Kathi: IF something you read in one of these other sources CONTRADICTS the actual words of scripture, or CAN'T BE SUPPORTED BY the actual words of scripture, then don't even give it a second thought.
If you follow that guideline, then you'll find the two of us looking for the SAME truth – the truth of scripture alone.
peace and love to you,
mikeQuote (WorshippingJesus @ May 31 2011,10:50) If you notice most of them are self taught and without fellowship with a body of believers whom they assemble with.
And don't you find that the least bit interesting, Keith? Why is it that ONLY people who have been spoon fed your truth end up believing in the trinity? Why is it that us “self taught” people are the ones who recognize it for the comically flawed man-made doctrine that it is?The actual written word of God taught me, Keith. I didn't have some smooth talking preacher swaying me with his seemingly legitimate explanation of how the Son of God could be the God he is the Son of. Or how God Almighty could have been WITH God Almighty in the beginning. I chose not to be mislead by the important sounding big words the Trinitarians have come up with to change the truth that our one true God beget a Son unto Himself, anointed him as His Christ, gave him as a sacrificial Lamb, and then exalted him to a very esteemed position at His own right hand.
Nope, I just read the Book. Perhaps you might sometime want to look into WHY people who just read the book have come up with a completely different understanding of the relationship between our one God and His Son than you did.
mike
Quote (Lightenup @ May 29 2011,16:22) Mike,
There is no 'the' in 1c. and 'beget' is not there either, nor is there an 'a' btw.
The God beget a God. correct, imo
The God never beget a god. also correct.
The God only beget one God who is His Son. also correct.
Mike,
This is where you were deceptive. Regarding your response to the above quoted post of mine, first you quote me in part and then act like there wasn't the rest that I said about the 'a god' by your response:Quote Quote Quote (Lightenup @ May 29 2011,15:22)
There is no 'the' in 1c.Correct. That's why we know Jesus is not THE God, but A god.
As you can see, I not only said that there was no 'the' in 1c but neither is there an 'a' and that I believe that God beget a God, not a god, small g. Yet you push the 'a god' bias of yours and speak as though “we know Jesus is not THE God, but A god.” That was the lie I was talking about Mike. The capital 'G' God is what I believe Jesus is, so don't ever say that I know Jesus is 'A god.'
So were you accidently misleading or were you intentionally misleading the reader, Mike? I have cleared this up with you so much that I doubt that it was unintentional.
Kathi
I know. I'll try from now on to use “GOD” for GOD Almighty”, “God” for Jesus, and “god” for Satan and the others.
That way Jesus is not on the same plane as his own GOD, but is distinguished above the other gods that GOD is the GOD of. Does that work for you?
Quote (t8 @ May 31 2011,17:09) There is one God the Father. He is the true God.
Theos as applied to anyone else, (including Jesus) is not meant to be taken as the eternal one true God.
Theos has other legitimate uses, just as adam and devil do. But the one true theos is applied to the Father exclusively just as there is one Devil and one Adam. (Yes there is a second one, but only because of failure was that passed to another).
No doctrine can change the truth that the Father is the one true God because this truth is eternal, and any opposing doctrine will simply vanish in time as all things related to this world will.
t8,
How do you know that the one true God, the Father didn't always have within Him, His own Son? Which would make the Son as eternal as the Father, btw.Last night I was reading about the eggs in the ovary of a woman and that all the eggs were there when that woman was born. Isn't that interesting…how 23 chromosomes of the 46 that make a living being are there as long as the mother existed. Each of her future children existed, in part, within her as long as she existed. Truly amazing design!
If the Son was ALWAYS within the Father and then brought forth just before creation, then the one true God becomes two distinct persons, both eternally existing and God is not only source but also contains the agent, from everlasting. This is the way I am understanding how a Son can be eternal theos also, not the eternal Father theos, but the eternal Son theos.
I would really like to see from your response that you understand what I am saying here.
An earthly mother does not have a whole offspring within her from her birth but half of what makes up a whole offspring. The heavenly Father is self-sufficient. He can have the whole offspring within Him.
So, I have no problem with the possibility of an eternal Son. It actually makes wonderful sense and gives understanding to scriptures.
Kathi
Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 31 2011,21:08) I know. I'll try from now on to use “GOD” for GOD Almighty”, “God” for Jesus, and “god” for Satan and the others. That way Jesus is not on the same plane as his own GOD, but is distinguished above the other gods that GOD is the GOD of. Does that work for you?
Thank you Mike. It helps more, imo, to distinguish the Father and Son by adding 'as the Father' or 'as the Son' to God…God, as the Father.
God, as the Son.Personally I believe that the Father is Almighty because He ALWAYS had the Son…first within and then begotten. Being not only the source but the agent in creation makes one Almighty.
Peace,
KathiQuote (mikeboll64 @ May 31 2011,21:03) I'm sorry Kathi, I fail to see where I attributed the words “a god” to you.
Mike,
You used the words “we know” when addressing me. Who else was part of the 'we' if only you were posting to me?Kathi
Quote (Lightenup @ May 31 2011,20:23) It helps more, imo, to distinguish the Father and Son by adding 'as the Father' or 'as the Son' to God… God, as the Father.
God, as the Son.
Ah, but YOUR distinction doesn't designate one as higher than the other, does it.Using “God” for both equalizes the Father and the Son, just like using “god” for Jesus seems to equalize him to Satan and the other gods of scripture.
So I can see your point, can you see mine? If I'M going to use the “GOD”, “God”, “god” thing, then you need to use it also, so you're not equalizing Jesus to his own GOD.
It's a tradeoff, ya know?
mike
Quote (Lightenup @ May 31 2011,20:25) Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 31 2011,21:03) I'm sorry Kathi, I fail to see where I attributed the words “a god” to you.
Mike,
You used the words “we know” when addressing me. Who else was part of the 'we' if only you were posting to me?Kathi
Kathi, I use those words all the time. It means and we all know this, right?.Like when I tell Keith, “Jesus is the Son OF God, so we know he can't actually BE God, right?”
But even if I was speaking ONLY of you and I, WE BOTH DO KNOW that Jesus is A God who was with THE GOD in the beginning, right?
You've done the same thing to me using “God” for Jesus, when you know I don't cap the “G” for him.
Take a look at your user name and DO THAT, okay?
peace to you my friend,
mikeMike,
Quote Ah, but YOUR distinction doesn't designate one as higher than the other, does it. Yes it does because 'Father' indicates a greater position than the word 'Son' yet it still indicates equal nature. That is how I will make the distinction if there seems to be confusion. I am glad that you are making a distinction between Jesus and satan now, anyway.
Kathi
Quote (Lightenup @ June 01 2011,00:21) Irene needs our prayers ya'll. See the pray for others thread. Thanks!
Amen!WJ
Kathi,
Just asking: how does Jesus share the same nature as The father?
Do you mean that Jesus is in the nature of a Spirit because God is a Spirit?
But are the Angels not Spirits, too?
Hi Mike
Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 31 2011,18:19) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 31 2011,10:50) If you notice most of them are self taught and without fellowship with a body of believers whom they assemble with.
And don't you find that the least bit interesting, Keith?
Yes I do! Especially since the Bible teaches against it. Not to mention you are in violation of the scripture that says…Let us not give up meeting together, as some are in the habit of doing, but let us encourage one another—and all the more as you see the Day approaching. Heb 10:25
No man is an Island to himself! The scriptures teach us that the Church is the “ekklēsia” which means; “a gathering of citizens called out from their homes into some public place, an assembly”.
Paul clearly said…
The eye cannot say to the hand, “I don't need you!” And the head cannot say to the feet, “I don't need you!” On the contrary, those parts of the body that seem to be weaker are indispensable, and the parts that we think are less honorable we treat with special honor. And the parts that are unpresentable are treated with special modesty, 1 Cor 12:21-23
Read 1 Cor Chapters 12-13 and you will get an understanding of how the NT Church was to function.
The Body of Christ is made up of many believers who gathered together in one place in One Spirit each having gifts that were for the exhortation and the building up or maturing of the saints.
Paul says…
How is it then, brethren? WHEN YE COME TOGETHER, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying. 1 Cor 14:26
Have you ever been prophesied over Mike? Have you spoke in tongues? Have you received any of the gifts Paul mentions in 1 Cor 12 or Eph 4:11-16?
Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 31 2011,18:19) Why is it that ONLY people who have been spoon fed your truth end up believing in the trinity?
Why is it that “ONLY” people who isolate themselves from the Body and the assembling of themselves together and the gifts of the Holy Spirit who also have no teacher according to Eph 4, always end up as part of the anti-Jesus is God crowd?The scriptures make it clear you cannot mature in Jesus without the gifts! Eph 4:11-16
Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 31 2011,18:19) Why is it that us “self taught” people are the ones who recognize it for the comically flawed man-made doctrine that it is?
Not having teachers is a sign of pride because it infers that you are unteachable, and that is how most cults start like Joseph Smith, David Koresh, and Jim Jones.They said to you, “In the last times there will be scoffers who will follow their own ungodly desires.” These are the men who divide you, who follow mere natural instincts and do not have the Spirit. Jud 1:18, 19
Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time. They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us. 1 John 2:18, 19
Even the Apostle John uses the word “US”!
WJ
Istari,
How do you and Adam and Eve share the same nature?
It is not because you are all flesh and blood because animals are also flesh and blood and you, Adam and Eve do not have the nature of a cow for instance. So I don't believe that those in the spirit realm automatically have the same nature either. The created angels would have a nature that was peculiar to them, and the Father and the Son would have a nature that was peculiar to them. A being's nature is passed down from the first of their type.
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