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Paul,
Don't spend the time…he continually adds words and interpretations that I have never said or suggested. For one, I have never used the term 'incubation' in my understanding in fact I have told him that and you can see that he uses the term even here.I appreciate your efforts…really do!
Blessings,
KathiIS, ask Kathi…
All Kathi is doing is saying she never 'used the word' but what she is doing is admirably describing the very term 'Incubatation'.
No, she did not USE the word/Term BUT what she says IS AN EXACT DEFINITION of that which she denies!
She says that Jesus was always EXISTING inside God as a Son from eternity as a Woman always has a child inside her before the child is born – making her an Eternal Mother – and God, an ETERNAL FATHER WITH AN ETERNAL SON (Even though the 'Eternal Son' is not until he was Begotten after being raised from the dead and Glorified)!
My point was for Kathi to be careful WHAT she writes and the Precedence that bestows on the entities within. This will have an impact later on if not caught and corrected!
This is called 'a point of order'!IS, do you wish to see one maintaining an error of thought and direction just so you can defend them against a PERCEIVED SLIGHT?
Kathi's error in thinking the Spirit is like the flesh is INCORRECT IN PRECEDENCE and leads to wrongful ideas!!
I can see where she is MISTAKENLY coming from
Quote (Lightenup @ May 27 2011,11:48) Hi Kerwin,
God begets God who contains the Father God's nature.
God cannot beget a god.
Hi Kathi,Phrase it correctly. John calls the Father “THE GOD” in 1:1, right? So let's use that terminology for your “like begets like” scenario:
THE God begets THE God. Does that sound sensible to you now?
Mike,
There is no 'the' in 1c. and 'beget' is not there either, nor is there an 'a' btw.
The God beget a God. correct, imo
The God never beget a god. also correct.
The God only beget one God who is His Son. also correct.Istari,
People have been teaching the eternal Son who was begotten before the ages since the early church. I am not teaching that which is new, just trying to say it in a way to give some more understanding. Also, the eternal Father has been taught and believed on long before.I have told you that the manner in which the offspring was within the Father and then begotten is incomprehensible to me, just that it was so as I understand the matter.
Hi Kathi,
I understand that God is not a man, is spirit, invariable and never changes.
Quote James 1:17 (King James Version) 17Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.
Quote
Numbers 23:19 (King James Version)19God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?
Quote Malachi 3:6 (King James Version) 6For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.
Quote Psalm 102:25-28 (King James Version) 25Of old hast thou laid the foundation of the earth: and the heavens are the work of thy hands.
26They shall perish, but thou shalt endure: yea, all of them shall wax old like a garment; as a vesture shalt thou change them, and they shall be changed:
27But thou art the same, and thy years shall have no end.
28The children of thy servants shall continue, and their seed shall be established before thee.
Quote John 4:24
God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
If Christ Jesus is a man and also God, therefore, God changed; God varied. He varied from spirit to flesh. This is not to say the the spirit of God and the spirit of Jesus cannot dwell within us. Christ Jesus said this occurs when we love him and keep his words.
Something I would like you to consider: these early church fathers that claim Jesus is God were in the main Hellenistic Christians. They were educated with Philo's school of thought. Here is a link to explore and read about about this stuff.
info about Philo
The Judaic Christians on the other hand believed the messiah would be a man. A son of man. Christ Jesus ephasizes this much more in his recorded sayings than his sonship to God as it was his mission to teach sons of man the way to become sons of God.Quote Romans 8:14
For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
Christ Jesus is/was led by the Spirit of God he desires that we be all like him in this way so that as a result we will also be his spiritual brothers and sisters led by the Spirit of God.
This is why I don't believe Jesus had pre-existing sonship. I am using scripture and non-scriptural information which I posted in this post to present to all the reasoning process I went through in presenting this conclusion/argument.With Love and more love,
WispringHi Wispring,
You ought to learn about the passive and active voice of Greek verbs. I believe that would really help you better understand what the original text was saying. When the verb is in the active voice then the subject actively did the action themself, when the verb is in the passive sense, the action is done to the subject. Here is something about that:Grammatical Voice of Verbs
Active Voice
Grammatical voice indicates whether the subject is the performer of the action of the verb (active voice), or the subject is the recipient of the action (passive voice). If the subject of the sentence is executing the action, then the verb is referred to as being in the active voice.For example: “Jesus was baptizing the people” (paraphrase of John 3:22; 4:1,2). “Jesus” is the subject of the sentence and is the one that is performing the action of the verb; therefore the verb is said to be in the “Active Voice”.
Passive Voice
Grammatical voice indicates whether the subject is the performer of the action of the verb (active voice), or the subject is the recipient of the action (passive voice). If the subject of the sentence is being acted upon, then the verb is referred to as being in the passive voice.For example: “Jesus … was baptized by John in the Jordan” (Mark 1:9). “Jesus” is the subject of the sentence, but in this case He is being acted upon (i.e. He is the recipient of the action), therefore the verb is said to be in the “Passive Voice”.
Middle Voice
The Greek middle voice shows the subject acting in his own interest or on his own behalf, or participating in the results of the verbal action. In overly simplistic terms, sometimes the middle form of the verb could be translated as “the performer of the action actually acting upon himself” (reflexive action).For example: “I am washing myself.” “I” is the subject of the sentence (performing the action of the verb) and yet “I” am also receiving the action of the verb. This is said to be in the “Middle Voice”. Many instances in the Greek are not this obvious and cannot be translated this literally.
Found here: http://www.ntgreek.org/learn_nt_greek/verbs1.htm
As a pertinent example to His pre-existence:
“This is He on behalf of whom I said, 'After me comes a Man who has a higher rank than I, for He existed before me.'
'He existed' is written in the active voice. He existed 'actively' and not 'passively.'As far as your verses about God not changing, I believe that you would benefit from “John Gill's Exposition of the Whole Bible.”
found here: http://www.freegrace.net/gill/
I check that frequently. John Gill was a scholar in ancient languages and a man of humility. I have learned a lot from reading his commentary.I appreciate your thoughts,
KathiQuote (Lightenup @ May 29 2011,15:28) Istari,
People have been teaching the eternal Son who was begotten before the ages since the early church.
But not any people who actually partook in writing the scriptures, right?
Quote (Lightenup @ May 29 2011,15:22) There is no 'the' in 1c.
Correct. That's why we know Jesus is not THE God, but A god.Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 29 2011,18:26) Quote (Lightenup @ May 29 2011,15:28) Istari,
People have been teaching the eternal Son who was begotten before the ages since the early church.
But not any people who actually partook in writing the scriptures, right?
Wrong, Peter partook in writing the scriptures and I showed you the Syriac document of what he said…clearly.Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 29 2011,18:27) Quote (Lightenup @ May 29 2011,15:22) There is no 'the' in 1c.
Correct. That's why we know Jesus is not THE God, but A god.
Obviously you are misconstruing or misunderstanding my words to even say that and I believe you are doing it on purpose.read what I say about the 'a'
There is no 'the' in 1c. and 'beget' is not there either, nor is there an 'a' btw.
The God beget a God. correct, imo
The God never beget a god. also correct.
The God only beget one God who is His Son. also correct.If you are just going to keep acting like I agree with you on the 'a god' bias then this is wasting my time. You are stuck in your muck, Mike. You might consider that you have an addiction to religion, my friend. It is possible you know…there is what is called a 'religious spirit' and I am concerned for you. Truly I am. Please don't take that lightly.
Sincerly,
KathiKathi,
As has already been said to you: 'Everything came from God', so then, in your words, 'Everything was BEGOTTEN from God!
This includes all Angels who are also SONS OF GOD.
And Man is the Image of God – and SON OF GOD (If they have the HOLY SPIRIT)So Jesus then is NOT the ONLY BEGOTTEN SON OF GOD for God BEGOT ALL LIVING SENTIENT BEINGS…
Eternal Son is from when he was raised from the dead – FOREVER A PERCECT SON and HEIR.
Adam was the FIRST BORN Son of God in the flesh.
Jesus is the second born Son of God in the flesh.'And the first shall be last – and the last shall be first'
For THE DAY – first is the darkness of NIGHT, then is the Light of DAY!
Modern times have swapped it round but from the beginning a day was Dark->Light which reflects Sin->Sinlessness!
And, First the Flesh then the Spirit – clearly this pertains to MAN…
And what was GOD's greatest CREATION – was it a SPIRIT creature? No, it was an Autonomous HUMAN BEING in HIS IMAGE.
That first Man failed in righteousness and the Spirit Son of God was sent – demoted of his glory (He was now pure Sinless Flesh and blood MAN as was the first man – Adam – at the time of his creation)
Jesus performed that which Adam failed to do –
Jesus withheld from temptation (If Jesus was God how could he be tempted – God cannot be tempted: To be tempted means getting something you don't already have – and Everything is to God so with what can God be tempted with!)
So here is a confusion for Kathi and all Trinitarians : Jesus is God – Jesus is man – Jesus is tempted – God cannot be tempted – yet Jesus was tempted – Jesus passed the temptation test – why was Adam tempted – did Adam not have something that caused him to fall to temptation? Yes, To know Good and bad, to be like God and live forever through his own self management independent from God…
so, if Jesus was tempted, then he could not have been God, and if not God then Man, and if Man then there WAS NO TRINITY (Nor Binity) for there was then ONLY ONE GOD (as is the assertion from Scriptures)!
So how did Jesus die – God – Or Man (And a God cannot die – so Scriptures must then be wrong, eh!)
So then, exactly what DID Jesus perform by coming down as flesh and dying as Man and being raised up again?What was the purpose of being RAISED UP AGAIN – and did Jesus RESUME BEING GOD… (A God is a God – one cannot BECOME a God …('God' here means 'Almighty God (in the so-called Godhead) not the simple 'Mighty One')
Quote (Lightenup @ May 29 2011,23:58) Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 29 2011,18:26) Quote (Lightenup @ May 29 2011,15:28) Istari,
People have been teaching the eternal Son who was begotten before the ages since the early church.
But not any people who actually partook in writing the scriptures, right?
Wrong, Peter partook in writing the scriptures and I showed you the Syriac document of what he said…clearly.
You posted some unauthenticated words that someone has attributed to the Apostle Peter. Those words are not scripture, and most likely not even Peter's.Quote (Lightenup @ May 30 2011,00:08) Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 29 2011,18:27) Quote (Lightenup @ May 29 2011,15:22) There is no 'the' in 1c.
Correct. That's why we know Jesus is not THE God, but A god.
Obviously you are misconstruing or misunderstanding my words to even say that and I believe you are doing it on purpose.read what I say about the 'a'
There is no 'the' in 1c. and 'beget' is not there either, nor is there an 'a' btw.
The God beget a God. correct, imo
The God never beget a god. also correct.
The God only beget one God who is His Son. also correct.If you are just going to keep acting like I agree with you on the 'a god' bias then this is wasting my time. You are stuck in your muck, Mike. You might consider that you have an addiction to religion, my friend. It is possible you know…there is what is called a 'religious spirit' and I am concerned for you. Truly I am. Please don't take that lightly.
Sincerly,
Kathi
Hi Kathi,You can cap the “G” all you want, trying to give the impression that Jesus is equal to his own God. But God said NO ONE was His equal.
So let's just suffice to say that THE God beget a Son who himself was a mighty being, but according to scripture, someone who is OTHER THAN and LESSOR TO the God who created him.
And I don't have “religious spirit”, but “the spirit of truth”. I AM addicted to that truth now, and take it very seriously. I won't sit idly by while others trample that truth with their own concoctions and imaginations.
Jesus is NOT our one true God, Kathi – his Father is. That is the TRUTH of the matter, so anything you ever say against that truth is a flat out LIE, whether you know it or not.
I'm here to help you see this fact.
mike
Kathi! This is what Jesus says
Jhn 14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come [again] unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.Also a Son did not always exist. Jesus had a beginning which you don't address, and gave me an article to read, I don't care what any man said, I go by the Bible.
And the Bible tell me that Jesus had a beginning. Also if Jesus was deity from the beginning, He would not been able to die for us. Now He is immortal…and never will die again….
You seem to forget that God is a title, and Jesus too is God. And one day we too will share in the divinity with Jesus…
2Pe 1:4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
A divine nature cannot die…..
Peace Irene
Istari and readers of his supposed declaration of what I say here,
It would take so much of my time to unscramble the web of Istari's misconcepts of what I say and Istari's misunderstanding of the two natures of Christ. Just suffice this to say to the other readers, when Istari tries to convey what I understand, just don't take the time to read. That has been my biggest clue as to how to regard the rest of what he thinks he understands about anything else. If you want to know what I believe or consider probable, just ask…don't think you get it through Istari, please. He distorts it so badly. On purpose…maybe, I don't know. I'll give him the benefit of the doubt though.Kathi
Quote (Pastry @ May 30 2011,12:31) Kathi! This is what Jesus says
Jhn 14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come [again] unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.Also a Son did not always exist. Jesus had a beginning which you don't address, and gave me an article to read, I don't care what any man said, I go by the Bible.
And the Bible tell me that Jesus had a beginning. Also if Jesus was deity from the beginning, He would not been able to die for us. Now He is immortal…and never will die again….
You seem to forget that God is a title, and Jesus too is God. And one day we too will share in the divinity with Jesus…
2Pe 1:4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
A divine nature cannot die…..
Peace Irene
Irene,
For the umpteenth time , Jesus's flesh died, the human part of him. The deity part of Him did not die.Man can only kill the body, not the soul/spirit. What don't you get about that.
Kathi
Mike,
If you were all about the truth now, you wouldn't keep implying that I agree with the 'a god' idea you want to spin off on us. So when you lie about what I say, then don't tell me you are 'addicted to truth.'If you were truthful you would not keep saying something that you know is NOT true.
I should know if THAT what you say is true or not in representing my thoughts since they are my thoughts…right.
Kathi
Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 30 2011,09:43) Quote (Lightenup @ May 29 2011,23:58) Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 29 2011,18:26) Quote (Lightenup @ May 29 2011,15:28) Istari,
People have been teaching the eternal Son who was begotten before the ages since the early church.
But not any people who actually partook in writing the scriptures, right?
Wrong, Peter partook in writing the scriptures and I showed you the Syriac document of what he said…clearly.
You posted some unauthenticated words that someone has attributed to the Apostle Peter. Those words are not scripture, and most likely not even Peter's.
Well, if these words are Peter's then you would be among the dusty ones that the apostle's walked away from because they did not receive their words.So, if you were seriously looking for truth, the historical documents and the early church father's writings and the scholars' common understanding of:
the eternal sonship and
properly being God, as the Son
worshipped along with the Fathershould have you at the very least considering WHY they are saying these things and some dying for these things that you want to change the translation of by your bias.
Mike, you think they are ALL wrong but you are right.
Some of these writers were actually apostles of Christ and learned directly from Him or those that learned directly from the authors of the scriptures who learned directly from Him.
I think you need to stop arguing here and take these writings seriously enough to search them out with a spirit of trying to understand why they say what they say. Please!
Kathi
Quote (Lightenup @ May 31 2011,01:01) So, if you were seriously looking for truth, the historical documents and the early church father's writings and the scholars' common understanding of:
the eternal sonship and
properly being God, as the Son
worshipped along with the Fathershould have you at the very least considering WHY they are saying these things and some dying for these things that you want to change the translation of by your bias.
Mike, you think they are ALL wrong but you are right.
Hi KathiI agree and you make some good points. The anti-Jesus is God crowd have to throw away the majority of historical documents, and scholarly writtings from the 1st Century to the present day. They have to even twist Trinitarian works to make their points since they have no valid source for their beliefs other than they claim sola-scriptura which is a joke since the majority of the Hebrew and Greek experts that bring us the translations were also Trinitarian, and without the Trinitarian there would be no Bible.
If you notice most of them are self taught and without fellowship with a body of believers whom they assemble with.
They will never grow without the Fivefold Ministry Paul speaks of in Eph 4. They will always try to understand spiritual truths with the carnal mind.
God gave the gifts to the Church for the maturing of the saints till we all come to the unity of the faith.
The Apostle Paul Fathered his followers and nothing has changed today. I have a few Fathers in the faith that I have council with and fellowship with.
The scriptures tells us “NOT” to forsake the assembling of ourselves together as the manner of some.
HN is not a substitute for the real thing.
I think Jude had it right when he said…
But, beloved, remember ye the words which were spoken before of the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ; How that they told you there should be mockers in the last time, who should walk after their own ungodly lusts. “These be they who SEPERATE THEMSELVES, sensual, having not the Spirit.” Jude 1:17-19
It is by the Spirit of wisdom and revelation that we know these things to be true. And it is by that same Spirit that we know him who is True.
Blessings!
Keith
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