Kathy What Do You Mean By Preexisting Sonship?

[kerwin]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 08 2011,07:39)

Quote (kerwin @ June 06 2011,22:46) You error in believing what is written as what is written is rhema and what you should believe is logos. Hi Kerwin, You err in telling me that I “error”.   Seriously though, “rhema” and “logos” are two Greek words that mean “word”………….that's all.  Don't buy into that Paladin crap, as I've shown him to be mistaken about it in the other thread by posting actual scriptures that show there to be no mystical meaning behind using “logos” versus “rhema”. And what is written is the ONLY thing we have to determine the kind of fruits the spirit is offering us.  What else do we have to go by, Kerwin?  What we “feel”?  What if what I “feel” is contradicted by many scriptures?  What takes precedence?  My feelings or the written word of God? peace, mike

I actually read the various definitions for rhema and logos and they are not exactly the same though in some instances they apear to be synomyns.

Logos is the intent behind the words while rhema is the written of spoken letter.

Thus the written/spoken letter can be decieviing but the intent behind it cannot be.

Thus I was pointing out that it is wiser to speak of obeying the godly intent behind the written letter than the written letter. I did this because one will but their own private interpretation behind the written letter if they do not obey the godly intent.

I was hoping you already knew that but had inadvertantly emphasized the written letter.

According to Jesus the only way you can come to Jesus is if the Spirit of God leads you. Since he also promised that those that hunger and thirst for righteouss will be filled it seems reasonable that that hunger and thirst within you will drive you to to pursue God's righteousness and kingdom. In your drive to understand God will her you and reveal his intent to you.

That is why Jesus also instructs us to seek first God's kingdom and his righteousness.

[Pastry]

Quote (Lightenup @ May 31 2011,16:39)

Quote (Pastry @ May 30 2011,12:31) Kathi!  This is what Jesus says Jhn 14:28   Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come [again] unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I. Also a Son did not always exist.  Jesus had a beginning which you don't address, and gave me an article to read, I don't care what any man said, I go by the Bible.   And the Bible tell me that Jesus had a beginning.  Also if Jesus was deity from the beginning, He would not been able to die for us.  Now He is immortal…and never will die again…. You seem to forget that God is a title, and Jesus too is God.  And one day we too will share in the divinity with Jesus… 2Pe 1:4   Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.   A divine nature cannot die….. Peace Irene Irene, For the umpteenth time , Jesus's flesh died, the human part of him.  The deity part of Him did not die. Man can only kill the body, not the soul/spirit.  What don't you get about that. Kathi

Kathy! You simply don”t seem to understand that Jesus was not deity first. He was a Spirit Being yes, but in order to save mankind Almighty God created Jesus in that way, so He could die for all. What you are saying is not according to Scriptures.
A Deity cannot die…The glory he had with His Father before the world was, is a Spirit Being, and as a reward(Georg's idea) He became a deity, just like we will one day share in Jesus Divinity…
Again…. it is you who don't seem to understand….
2Pe 1:4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

Peace Irene

[mikeboll64]

Quote (kerwin @ June 07 2011,22:34)

Logos is the intent behind the words while rhema is the written of spoken letter.

Hi Kerwin,

1Co 2:4
My speech and my preaching were not with persuasive words of wisdom, but with a demonstration of the Spirit and of power,

Both of the bolded words above are “logos”.  Can you tell me how Paul's meaning would have been different had he used “rhema” instead?

Quote (kerwin @ June 07 2011,22:34)

Thus I was pointing out that it is wiser to speak of obeying the godly intent behind the written letter than the written letter.

How can you have one without the other, Kerwin?  The godly intent is manifest IN the words themselves, right?

Maybe I don't understand what you're saying.  I feel like I'm being scolded, but I'm not sure what for.  

peace,
mike

[SimplyForgiven]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 07 2011,02:44)

Quote (SimplyForgiven @ June 06 2011,16:36) Hi Kieth, lol already old man, im going to move these responses to a new thread.  this has  captured my attention. at the moment i dont have time, but trust me i will make time to clarify and bring evidence for my claims since my previous post is just one of my many rants.   much Love, Hi Dennison Yea I thought about creating a new thread and I should have. Love back at you young man, and I look forward to your response and proof that all churches today are unscriptural! Blessings Keith

Hi WJ,

I just Created the Thread about it,

And I will move your responses to that thread and answer it there.

And also kathi as well.

Just wanted to let you know.

https://heavennet.net/cgi-bin….t=3882;

[kerwin]

Mike,

Quote

Hi Kerwin, 1Co 2:4 My speech and my preaching were not with persuasive words of wisdom, but with a demonstration of the Spirit and of power, Both of the bolded words above are “logos”.  Can you tell me how Paul's meaning would have been different had he used “rhema” instead?

Here are the definitions of “logos” in Strong’s.

Quote

1.of speech a.a word, uttered by a living voice, embodies a conception or idea b.what someone has said 1.a word 2.the sayings of God 3.decree, mandate or order 4.of the moral precepts given by God 5.Old Testament prophecy given by the prophets 6.what is declared, a thought, declaration, aphorism, a weighty saying, a dictum, a maxim c.discourse 1.the act of speaking, speech 2.the faculty of speech, skill and practice in speaking 3.a kind or style of speaking 4.a continuous speaking discourse – instruction d.doctrine, teaching e.anything reported in speech; a narration, narrative f.matter under discussion, thing spoken of, affair, a matter in dispute, case, suit at law g.the thing spoken of or talked about; event, deed 2.its use as respect to the MIND alone a.reason, the mental faculty of thinking, meditating, reasoning, calculating b.account, i.e. regard, consideration c.account, i.e. reckoning, score d.account, i.e. answer or explanation in reference to judgment e.relation, i.e. with whom as judge we stand in relation 1.reason would f.reason, cause, ground 3.In John, denotes the essential Word of God, Jesus Christ, the personal wisdom and power in union with God, his minister in creation and government of the universe, the cause of all the world's life both physical and ethical, which for the procurement of man's salvation put on human nature in the person of Jesus the Messiah, the second person in the Godhead, and shone forth conspicuously from His words and deeds. A Greek philosopher named Heraclitus first used the term Logos around 600 B.C. to designate the divine reason or plan which coordinates a changing universe. This word was well suited to John's purpose in John 1.

Here are the definitions of “rhema” in Strong’s.

Quote

1.that which is or has been uttered by the living voice, thing spoken, word a.any sound produced by the voice and having definite meaning b.speech, discourse 1.what one has said c.a series of words joined together into a sentence (a declaration of one's mind made in words) 1.an utterance 2.a saying of any sort as a message, a narrative 1c d.concerning some occurrence 2.subject matter of speech, thing spoken of a.so far forth as it is a matter of narration b.so far as it is a matter of command c.a matter of dispute, case at law

So Paul is speaking of his word in the sense of 1d doctrine or teaching and persuasive words in the sense of 1c3 3.a kind or style of speaking. Using rhema would change the meaning as it has a different set of definitions.

Quote

How can you have one without the other, Kerwin?  The godly intent is manifest IN the words themselves, right?

That is what is hoped but often that is not the case.  Letters on a page are merely a means to express ideas but they fail to do that in many cases.  This is called a communication failure.  To correctly understand the intent behind a person’s words you must often look at it from their point of view.   The same is true with God’s words which is why the law fails to purify anyone.  It is also why the truth of God is hidden from those who are perishing even though they read scripture.

I was correcting you because from what I have read as most people here go by the letter of scripture while having different understandings of the meaning behind it.  God’s meaning behind the words is what we should be seeking when we read the letters on the pages of scripture.

Note: I used the lexicons at searchgodsword.com to obtain the definition for logos and rhema.

[Lightenup]

Quote (Pastry @ June 08 2011,18:33)

Quote (Lightenup @ May 31 2011,16:39) Quote (Pastry @ May 30 2011,12:31) Kathi!  This is what Jesus says Jhn 14:28   Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come [again] unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I. Also a Son did not always exist.  Jesus had a beginning which you don't address, and gave me an article to read, I don't care what any man said, I go by the Bible.   And the Bible tell me that Jesus had a beginning.  Also if Jesus was deity from the beginning, He would not been able to die for us.  Now He is immortal…and never will die again…. You seem to forget that God is a title, and Jesus too is God.  And one day we too will share in the divinity with Jesus… 2Pe 1:4   Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.   A divine nature cannot die….. Peace Irene Irene, For the umpteenth time , Jesus's flesh died, the human part of him.  The deity part of Him did not die. Man can only kill the body, not the soul/spirit.  What don't you get about that. Kathi Kathy!  You simply don”t seem to understand that Jesus was not deity first.   He was a Spirit Being yes, but in order to save mankind Almighty God created Jesus in that way, so He could die for all.   What you are saying is not according to Scriptures.   A Deity cannot die…The glory he had with His Father before the world was, is a Spirit Being, and as a reward(Georg's idea)  He became a deity, just like we will one day share in Jesus Divinity… Again…. it is you who don't seem to understand…. 2Pe 1:4   Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust. Peace Irene

Irene,
John 1:1 refutes your idea that Jesus became deity as a reward when He was resurrected.

In the BEGINNING was the word, the word WAS with God, and the word WAS God.

Irene, please tell me that you agree that the one in Gen. 18 that is referred to as YAHWEH by the writer, is talking with Abraham face to face and that Abraham calls the Judge of all the earth.

1Now YAHWEH appeared to him by the oaks of Mamre, while he was sitting at the tent door in the heat of the day. 2When he lifted up his eyes and looked, behold, three men were standing opposite him; and when he saw them, he ran from the tent door to meet them and bowed himself to the earth, 3and said, “My Lord, if now I have found favor in Your sight, please do not pass Your servant by. 4“Please let a little water be brought and wash your feet, and rest yourselves under the tree; 5and I will bring a piece of bread, that you may refresh yourselves; after that you may go on, since you have visited your servant.” And they said, “So do, as you have said.” 6So Abraham hurried into the tent to Sarah, and said, “Quickly, prepare three measures of fine flour, knead it and make bread cakes.” 7Abraham also ran to the herd, and took a tender and choice calf and gave it to the servant, and he hurried to prepare it. 8He took curds and milk and the calf which he had prepared, and placed it before them; and he was standing by them under the tree as they ate.

9Then they said to him, “Where is Sarah your wife?” And he said, “There, in the tent.” 10He said, “I will surely return to you at this time next year; and behold, Sarah your wife will have a son.” And Sarah was listening at the tent door, which was behind him. 11Now Abraham and Sarah were old, advanced in age; Sarah was past childbearing. 12Sarah laughed to herself, saying, “After I have become old, shall I have pleasure, my lord being old also?” 13And YAHWEH said to Abraham, “Why did Sarah laugh, saying, ‘Shall I indeed bear a child, when I am so old?’ 14“Is anything too difficult forYAHWEH ? At the appointed time I will return to you, at this time next year, and Sarah will have a son.” 15Sarah denied it however, saying, “I did not laugh”; for she was afraid. And He said, “No, but you did laugh.”

16Then the men rose up from there, and looked down toward Sodom; and Abraham was walking with them to send them off. 17YAHWEH said, “Shall I hide from Abraham what I am about to do, 18since Abraham will surely become a great and mighty nation, and in him all the nations of the earth will be blessed? 19“For I have chosen him, so that he may command his children and his household after him to keep the way of YAHWEH by doing righteousness and justice, so that YAHWEH may bring upon Abraham what He has spoken about him.” 20And YAHWEH said, “The outcry of Sodom and Gomorrah is indeed great, and their sin is exceedingly grave. 21“I will go down now, and see if they have done entirely according to its outcry, which has come to Me; and if not, I will know.”

22Then the men turned away from there and went toward Sodom, while Abraham was still standing before YAHWEH . 23Abraham came near and said, “Will You indeed sweep away the righteous with the wicked? 24“Suppose there are fifty righteous within the city; will You indeed sweep it away and not spare the place for the sake of the fifty righteous who are in it? 25“Far be it from You to do such a thing, to slay the righteous with the wicked, so that the righteous and the wicked are treated alike. Far be it from You! Shall not the Judge of all the earth deal justly?” 26So YAHWEH said, “If I find in Sodom fifty righteous within the city, then I will spare the whole place on their account.” 27And Abraham replied, “Now behold, I have ventured to speak to the Lord, although I am but dust and ashes. 28“Suppose the fifty righteous are lacking five, will You destroy the whole city because of five?” And He said, “I will not destroy it if I find forty-five there.” 29He spoke to Him yet again and said, “Suppose forty are found there?” And He said, “I will not do it on account of the forty.” 30Then he said, “Oh may the Lord not be angry, and I shall speak; suppose thirty are found there?” And He said, “I will not do it if I find thirty there.” 31And he said, “Now behold, I have ventured to speak to the Lord; suppose twenty are found there?” And He said, “I will not destroy it on account of the twenty.” 32Then he said, “Oh may the Lord not be angry, and I shall speak only this once; suppose ten are found there?” And He said, “I will not destroy it on account of the ten.” 33As soon as He had finished speaking to Abraham, YAHWEH departed, and Abraham returned to his place.

Realize that no man has heard God's voice or seen Him. That must apply to the Father only because the Yahweh that was seen and spoken with by Abraham was called
Yahweh by the writer of this passage. All the commentaries conclude that that was Yahweh as the Son, pre-incarnate.

Love,
Kathi

[Pastry]

Quote

John 1:1 refutes your idea that Jesus became deity as a reward when He was resurrected. In the BEGINNING was the word, the word WAS with God, and the word WAS God.

Kathi! Jesus is not THE GOD, He is a God,,,,Scriptures say Jehovah God is above all. And the Head of Christ is Almighty God. Listen, I an having a hard time concentrating being on Pain Med. I'll get back to you with this on a later day OK…….Peace and Love Irene.

[Lightenup]

Irene,
Sorry you are having pain from your surgery. I hope you feel better soon.

As you can see Jehovah God is two persons, one as the Father, one as the Son. You can't have one without the other.
Love, Kathi

[Istari]

“The SPIRIT – NOT THE LETTER”
The INTENT – NOT the LITETAL

'Cut the Crap!'
The Spirit: 'Stop talking nonsense'
The Literal: 'Cr/ap'

[Istari]

Kathi, and others,
What does Rev 3:14 mean by 'These things say the Amen, the Faithful and True Witness, the BEGINNING of the CREATION of God'?

[Istari]

Kathi, and others,

In Rev 3:12, who is Jesus' God – and how is Jesus' God different from Jesus being God himself?

Are there 'different' hierachial orders of the SAME 'God'?

[mikeboll64]

Quote (kerwin @ June 08 2011,23:10)

Note: I used the lexicons at searchgodsword.com to obtain the definition for logos and rhema.

Look at the FIRST definition of both words, Kerwin. “A word uttered by a living voice”. If you and Paladin want to claim YOU know about some mystical meaning here and there, feel free. But “logos” and “rhema” BOTH refer to a word uttered by a human voice, and are used interchangeably.

Personally, I think the whole thing is a diversion caused by Paladin to explain away the fact that Jesus IS the “Word of God” who was with God in the beginning and then became flesh. I also personally think that's why you and Gene and Marty and Wispring jumped on board this train in the first place.

As far as Paul's use of “logos”, that scripture is often translated as “speech”, which is “rhema” 1b. It's like you guys are reading a horoscope, where you can find any meaning you like to fit your doctrine.

peace,
mike

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Lightenup @ June 09 2011,13:21)

As you can see Jehovah God is two persons

Kathi says:  “As you can see Jehovah God is two persons.”

Scripture says:  “Jehovah our God is ONE.”

[terraricca]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 10 2011,21:09)

Quote (Lightenup @ June 09 2011,13:21) As you can see Jehovah God is two persons Kathi says:  “As you can see Jehovah God is two persons.” Scripture says:  “Jehovah our God is ONE.”

Mike

Kathi has double vision

Pierre

[Pastry]

Quote (terraricca @ June 10 2011,14:55)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 10 2011,21:09) Quote (Lightenup @ June 09 2011,13:21) As you can see Jehovah God is two persons Kathi says:  “As you can see Jehovah God is two persons.” Scripture says:  “Jehovah our God is ONE.” Mike Kathi has double vision   Pierre

[mikeboll64]

Quote (terraricca @ June 09 2011,21:55)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 10 2011,21:09) Quote (Lightenup @ June 09 2011,13:21) As you can see Jehovah God is two persons Kathi says:  “As you can see Jehovah God is two persons.” Scripture says:  “Jehovah our God is ONE.” Mike Kathi has double vision   Pierre

Well, she does live in the homestate of Jack Daniel's Whiskey!  Maybe she's not above taking a nip now and then.  

Kathi, we LOVE you and you know it.  We're just messin' with ya!

[terraricca]

Quote (Istari @ June 10 2011,15:03)

Kathi, and others, In Rev 3:12, who is Jesus' God – and how is Jesus' God different from Jesus being God himself? Are there 'different' hierachial orders of the SAME 'God'?

istari

you are more concern with what God is than what God wants from you (us)so this does not let you much room to obey him

Pierre

[kerwin]

Mike Boll,

Quote

Look at the FIRST definition of both words, Kerwin.  “A word uttered by a living voice”.  If you and Paladin want to claim YOU know about some mystical meaning here and there, feel free.  But “logos” and “rhema” BOTH refer to a word uttered by a human voice, and are used interchangeably.

I saw a whole lot more than one definition for each and even the one you state differs since  “a word, uttered by a living voice, embodies a conception or idea” is not the same as “that which is or has been uttered by the living voice, thing spoken, word”

They probably have definitions that are equivalent.

I believe you should also take note of the final comment in definition #3 of the word logos which is “A Greek philosopher named Heraclitus first used the term Logos around 600 B.C. to designate the divine reason or plan which coordinates a changing universe. This word was well suited to John's purpose in John 1.”

Quote

As far as Paul's use of “logos”, that scripture is often translated as “speech”, which is “rhema” 1b.    It's like you guys are reading a horoscope, where you can find any meaning you like to fit your doctrine.

Your response sounds like you are arguing for the sake of arguing as it seems you do not believe that Paul was speaking about his teaching/doctrine or claiming he did not use a persuasive style of speaking.  Perhaps I am misunderstanding you.

All the above is a side argument as I am pointing out that you should understand what is written by the Spirit of God and not by personal interpretation of the written letter.  I am not sure why you are debating that point.  If that is what you meant in your post I initially addressed then let me know I misunderstood it.  If you erred then correct your error.

[Lightenup]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 09 2011,23:01)

Quote (terraricca @ June 09 2011,21:55) Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 10 2011,21:09) Quote (Lightenup @ June 09 2011,13:21) As you can see Jehovah God is two persons Kathi says:  “As you can see Jehovah God is two persons.” Scripture says:  “Jehovah our God is ONE.” Mike Kathi has double vision   Pierre Well, she does live in the homestate of Jack Daniel's Whiskey!  Maybe she's not above taking a nip now and then.   Kathi, we LOVE you and you know it.  We're just messin' with ya!

[Lightenup]

Quote (Istari @ June 09 2011,16:03)

Kathi, and others, In Rev 3:12, who is Jesus' God – and how is Jesus' God different from Jesus being God himself? Are there 'different' hierachial orders of the SAME 'God'?

Jesus' God is God the Father. God the Father is different from Jesus in that Jesus is God as the Son. There are not two who are Father. The Father is always in the higher position because He is and always will be the Father. But, He will never be who He is apart from the Son…they are inseparable.

Kathi

[Author]

Posts