Kathy What Do You Mean By Preexisting Sonship?

[kerwin]

Mike,

You wrote:

Quote

“Common sense” tells me to believe what's written, and not make up my own conclusion or words just because they speak what my ears are aching to hear.

You error in believing what is written as what is written is rhema and what you should believe is logos. Since that is so the conclusion you make will be God's if you are led by the spirit of God. If you are not led by the Spirit of God then you will error and not understand the logos behind the rhema.

That is why the letter kills and the spirit gives life.

[Lightenup]

Mike,
you said:

Quote

“Common sense” tells me to believe what's written, and not make up my own conclusion or words just because they speak what my ears are aching to hear.

Good, then you can see that God is from everlasting to everlasting. That's a start.

NASB ©
Before the mountains were born Or You gave birth to the earth and the world, Even from everlasting to everlasting, You are God.

Kathi

[terraricca]

KPsalm 90 this is the LXX version
A Prayer of Moses the man of God.

90:1 Lord, thou hast been our refuge in all generations. 2 Before the mountains existed, and before the earth and the world were formed, even from age to age, Thou art. 3 Turn not man back to his low place, whereas thou saidst, Return, ye sons of men? 4 For a thousand years in thy sight are as the yesterday which is past, and as a watch in the night. 5 Years shall be vanity to them: let the morning pass away as grass. 6 In the morning let it flower, and pass away: in the evening let it droop, let it be withered and dried up. 7 For we have perished in thine anger, and in thy wrath we have been troubled. 8 Thou hast set our

do you see it says age to age this is the oldies translation right ?

Pierre

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 06 2011,17:25)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 06 2011,09:28) Hi Kathi and Paul I had a debate with Mike for a while about Micah 5:2 and Ps 2:7 and showed him even the “Twot” disagrees with his Idea that that Micah 5:2 is proof Jesus had a beginning. I finally got tired of going in circles with him. That's not quite the way I remember it, Keith.    I remember that I had you pinned down with the fact that Micah 5:4 CLEARLY lists Jesus as someone OTHER THAN and LESSOR TO his own God.  You were fumbling around with the different “explanations” that certain Trinitarian scholars had come up with to make this clear fact disappear from the scriptures.  I wouldn't let up on you though, until you finally claimed a family emergency, invited us all to join you on FaceBook, and disappeared for a couple of months. Yeah, that's really the way it all went down.

Yea right, and we are to trust in “YOUR” memory? Whatever Mike!

You diverted the debate to another scripture and topic.

You wanted to escape the discussion on Micah 5:2 because you were loosing the argument!

Thats the way it went down.

WJ

[terraricca]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 08 2011,08:51)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 06 2011,17:25) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 06 2011,09:28) Hi Kathi and Paul I had a debate with Mike for a while about Micah 5:2 and Ps 2:7 and showed him even the “Twot” disagrees with his Idea that that Micah 5:2 is proof Jesus had a beginning. I finally got tired of going in circles with him. That's not quite the way I remember it, Keith.    I remember that I had you pinned down with the fact that Micah 5:4 CLEARLY lists Jesus as someone OTHER THAN and LESSOR TO his own God.  You were fumbling around with the different “explanations” that certain Trinitarian scholars had come up with to make this clear fact disappear from the scriptures.  I wouldn't let up on you though, until you finally claimed a family emergency, invited us all to join you on FaceBook, and disappeared for a couple of months. Yeah, that's really the way it all went down.   Yea right, and we are to trust in “YOUR” memory? Whatever Mike! You diverted the debate to another scripture and topic. You wanted to escape the discussion on Micah 5:2 because you were loosing the argument! Thats the way it went down. WJ

Mike

here is some i find;

mikeboll64

Group: Mods
Posts: 7233
Joined: Feb. 2010 Posted: Oct. 24 2010,16:16

——————————————————————————–
Hi All,

Micah 5:2 NIV
2 “But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah,
though you are small among the clans of Judah,
out of you will come for me
one who will be ruler over Israel,
whose origins are from of old,
from ancient times. “

This scripture is quoted by Matthew as being a prophecy of the coming Christ, so there's no doubt as to who this passage is about. But what else does it say about God's Christ?

Micah 5:4 NIV
4 He will stand and shepherd his flock
in the strength of the LORD,
in the majesty of the name of the LORD his God.
And they will live securely, for then his greatness
will reach to the ends of the earth.

This Christ is clearly someone OTHER THAN and LESSOR TO his God. Is there anyone out there who can read verse 4 and still think “Jesus IS God”?

peace and love,
mike

Pierre

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Lightenup @ June 06 2011,16:41)

Pierre, Are you waiting to love others when their doctrine lines up with what you think.  I think that is a little backwards.  Try loving first and let God take care of the rest.  Foster a spirit of understanding within yourself of why people believe certain things.  Everyone is at a different place in their walk and we all see things dimly.  Love people and seek to understand them, give them a benefit of the doubt and ask God to bless them with His love and truth.  Don't condem them…love them…pray for them.  Work on your own 'speck.'  Be slow to speak and quick to listen… Love to you, Kathi

Kathi

Well put!

WJ

[terraricca]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 08 2011,12:13)

Quote (Lightenup @ June 06 2011,16:41) Pierre, Are you waiting to love others when their doctrine lines up with what you think.  I think that is a little backwards.  Try loving first and let God take care of the rest.  Foster a spirit of understanding within yourself of why people believe certain things.  Everyone is at a different place in their walk and we all see things dimly.  Love people and seek to understand them, give them a benefit of the doubt and ask God to bless them with His love and truth.  Don't condem them…love them…pray for them.  Work on your own 'speck.'  Be slow to speak and quick to listen… Love to you, Kathi Kathi Well put! WJ

Kathi and WJ

could you tell me why Jesus did not trust the scribes ,Pharisees,sadducees,and also did not trust men ?

it is not that i do not love you in Christ but can i put my trust in you and your teachings?

Pierre

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Lightenup @ June 06 2011,22:45)

Mike, you said: Quote From our own point in time, we could rightfully say that Abraham was from “owlam” and his son Isaac was from “owlam”, right? What part of those two statements would tell our common sense that the “days of antiquity” that Abraham was from must be EARLIER days of antiquity than the days of antiquity that Isaac was from? Yes, common sense would tell us that Abraham must be from earlier days of antiquity.  When Jesus is involved though common sense doesn't quite work, does it.  In other words… From our own point in time, we could rightfully say that Abraham was from “owlam” and his descendant, Jesus was from “owlam”, right? What part of those two statements would tell our common sense that the “days of antiquity” that Abraham was from must be EARLIER days of antiquity than the days of antiquity that Jesus was from? 58Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am.” So, you really can't compare Jesus to man in that sense, can you.  He defies natural laws.  I thought we cleared that up.  Does your memory not transfer from thread to thread, Mike Gotcha ya, Kathi

No Kathi,

You've made some claims here and there, but nothing has been “cleared up”.    In fact I remember telling you how convenient it was for you to be able to say to yourself, “Since Jesus and God are different than mankind, I have free reign to claim whatever I want to claim, even if there is no scripture to support that claim.”  (Obviously, I'm embellishing on what seems to me to be your reasoning.)

Now in YOUR example above, WHY IS IT that we know Jesus, as the descendent OF Abraham, was BEFORE Abraham?  Perhaps there are scriptures telling us this, right?

How about with Abraham and Isaac?  Are there any scriptures telling us that Isaac was BEFORE Abraham?  No.  And in the absence of those scriptures, we go for the common sense understanding that Abraham HAS TO HAVE BEEN before Isaac, because Abraham is his FATHER.  Why would we not also go for that same common sense understanding with Jesus and his Father?

Sure it doesn't have to be that way because all is possible with God, but is there any SCRIPTURAL reason to think it isn't that way?

The problem with your theory is that it is nothing more than your OPINION, with not one single scripture to back that opinion up.  So you can WANT Jesus to be from the same exact “days of antiquity” that his Father is from, but there is no hint of this in the scriptures, and therefore no reason for me or any other person who bases their understanding ON the scriptures to believe it.  A father ALWAYS exists before his son, with Jesus becoming flesh being the ONLY exception in scripture.   And even then, he DID come AFTER his ancestors according to the flesh, right?

Kathi, let's say you're right.  What exactly was Jesus doing “within the Father” before the Father brought him forth?  What kind of “existence” could he have had before he was begotten?  Did he talk?  Did he think?  Was he even a “he” yet?

And lastly, if the Father and Son are two different beings who have always existed side by side, then why in the world would God pick “father” and “son” to describe their relationship?  Why not “brothers” or “partners” or “co-Gods” or something that would SHOW what you claim to be their “co-eternalness” and “co-equality”?

Surely God Himself knew how the human beings He created would understand a father/son relationship, right?  Surely He knew that we would understand that a son is begotten AFTER his father has already existed for quite some time, right?  And that a son comes forth FROM his father.  And that a son doesn't exist from the same point of time that his father started existing.  Surely He knew that a son was to honor his father and revere him, right?  That was the first commandment with a promise, remember?  It also came with the curse of being put to death if a child broke that commandment.

So why would God choose these particular words to describe His relationship with His co-equal, co-eternal “co-God”?

I don't think you've really thought your theory through all the way.  And we didn't get to these points and the others I have in our thread because I was busy waiting on scriptural proof that you couldn't deliver.  I figured that without scriptural proof, maybe you would at least stop pushing this theory as hard, and maybe even add a “IMO” when you claimed it.  But you haven't yet.  And in reality, all you even have is “Mike, we can't compare the way things are on earth with the way they are in heaven”.  That's really ALL that you have to support your theory.  I can't see how you think that one sentence could stand against everything I've brought to your attention in this post and the others.  

peace to you,
mike

[mikeboll64]

Quote (kerwin @ June 06 2011,22:46)

You error in believing what is written as what is written is rhema and what you should believe is logos.

Hi Kerwin,

You err in telling me that I “error”.  

Seriously though, “rhema” and “logos” are two Greek words that mean “word”………….that's all.  Don't buy into that Paladin crap, as I've shown him to be mistaken about it in the other thread by posting actual scriptures that show there to be no mystical meaning behind using “logos” versus “rhema”.

And what is written is the ONLY thing we have to determine the kind of fruits the spirit is offering us. What else do we have to go by, Kerwin? What we “feel”? What if what I “feel” is contradicted by many scriptures? What takes precedence? My feelings or the written word of God?

peace,

mike

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Lightenup @ June 06 2011,22:49)

Mike, you said: Quote “Common sense” tells me to believe what's written, and not make up my own conclusion or words just because they speak what my ears are aching to hear. Good, then you can see that God is from everlasting to everlasting.  That's a start. NASB © Before the mountains were born Or You gave birth to the earth and the world, Even from everlasting to everlasting, You are God. Kathi

The word is “owlam” Kathi. How do you know it means “everlasting”?

[mikeboll64]

Quote (terraricca @ June 06 2011,23:42)

do you see it says age to age this is the oldies translation right ?

Thanks Pierre,

And for digging up the Micah 5:4 post too!    Keith knows exactly what scripture we were heatedly discussing before he had to take some time off.  If he doesn't want to own up to that, then that's on him, not me.  I believe it was in the “Does God Procreate” thread, and probably within the last 10 pages of the thread.  But thanks for your help.

About this “Everlasting God” thing, I was planning on eventually starting a thread, because I seriously don't think any scripture actually says that God is from “everlasting” or “eternity”.  I've always believed He was, and it “feels” right to me, but I don't know if scripture actually says this anywhere.

peace,
mike

[terraricca]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 08 2011,20:04)

Quote (terraricca @ June 06 2011,23:42) do you see it says age to age this is the oldies translation right ? Thanks Pierre, And for digging up the Micah 5:4 post too!    Keith knows exactly what scripture we were heatedly discussing before he had to take some time off.  If he doesn't want to own up to that, then that's on him, not me.  I believe it was in the “Does God Procreate” thread, and probably within the last 10 pages of the thread.  But thanks for your help. About this “Everlasting God” thing, I was planning on eventually starting a thread, because I seriously don't think any scripture actually says that God is from “everlasting” or “eternity”.  I've always believed He was, and it “feels” right to me, but I don't know if scripture actually says this anywhere. peace, mike

Mike

Isa 40:28 Do you not know?
Have you not heard?
The LORD is the everlasting God,
the Creator of the ends of the earth.
He will not grow tired or weary,
and his understanding no one can fathom.
NIV1984

Isaia;40;
28 And now, hast thou not known? hast thou not heard? the eternal God, the God that formed the ends of the earth, shall not hunger, nor be weary, and there is no searching of his understanding. 29 He gives strength to the hungry, and sorrow to them that are not suffering. 30 For the young men shall hunger, and the youths shall be weary, and the choice men shall be powerless: 31 but they that wait on God shall renew their strength; they shall put forth new feathers like eagles; they shall run, and not be weary; they shall walk, and not hunger

this is the LXX version

yes you right according to the «LXX it is not everlasting but eternal ,what difference is there ?

Pierre

[mikeboll64]

Quote (terraricca @ June 07 2011,21:14)

yes you right according to the «LXX it is not everlasting but eternal  ,what difference is there ?

Hi Pierre,

The fact is that none of those Hebrew or Greek words actually mean “everlasting” or “eternal”.  They mean “from an age long ago” or “from days of antiquity”, etc.

And as much as it bothers me personally, I have never seen a scripture where God is really said to be “from eternity”, even though many English translators renders those above words as “eternity”.

There is one scripture where God is said to go on literally “forever”, but none I'm aware of that say He is FROM “forever”.

I hope someone will show me scriptural proof for the understanding I've always had.

peace,
mike

[terraricca]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 08 2011,21:19)

Quote (terraricca @ June 07 2011,21:14) yes you right according to the «LXX it is not everlasting but eternal  ,what difference is there ? Hi Pierre, The fact is that none of those Hebrew or Greek words actually mean “everlasting” or “eternal”.  They mean “from an age long ago” or “from days of antiquity”, etc. And as much as it bothers me personally, I have never seen a scripture where God is really said to be “from eternity”, even though many English translators renders those above words as “eternity”. There is one scripture where God is said to go on literally “forever”, but none I'm aware of that say He is FROM “forever”. I hope someone will show me scriptural proof for the understanding I've always had. peace, mike

Mike

how can God be from ? anyware = I AM who I AM

always was is and will be ;when you are FROM somewere this would mean a start no? and we know God as no beginning or start.

what you say?

Pierre

[Lightenup]

Quote (terraricca @ June 07 2011,17:51)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 08 2011,12:13) Quote (Lightenup @ June 06 2011,16:41) Pierre, Are you waiting to love others when their doctrine lines up with what you think.  I think that is a little backwards.  Try loving first and let God take care of the rest.  Foster a spirit of understanding within yourself of why people believe certain things.  Everyone is at a different place in their walk and we all see things dimly.  Love people and seek to understand them, give them a benefit of the doubt and ask God to bless them with His love and truth.  Don't condem them…love them…pray for them.  Work on your own 'speck.'  Be slow to speak and quick to listen… Love to you, Kathi Kathi Well put! WJ Kathi and WJ could you tell me why Jesus did not trust the scribes ,Pharisees,sadducees,and also did not trust men ? it is not that i do not love you in Christ but can i put my trust in you and your teachings? Pierre

Pierre,
Love your fellow man, trust God, do not lean on your own understanding.

Kathi

[terraricca]

Kathi

Quote

Pierre, Love your fellow man, trust God, do not lean on your own understanding. Kathi

I DO NOT LEAN on my own understanding.

Pierre

[mikeboll64]

Quote (terraricca @ June 07 2011,21:38)

Mike how can God be from ? anyware = I AM who I AM always was is and will be ;when you are FROM somewere this would mean a start no? and we know God as no beginning or start. what you say?

I say that this is exactly what I've been told all my life, what my heart still tells me today, and what I WANT to believe.

But is there any scripture that actually SAYS that God “has no beginning”?

[terraricca]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 08 2011,21:48)

Quote (terraricca @ June 07 2011,21:38) Mike how can God be from ? anyware = I AM who I AM always was is and will be ;when you are FROM somewere this would mean a start no? and we know God as no beginning or start. what you say? I say that this is exactly what I've been told all my life, what my heart still tells me today, and what I WANT to believe. But is there any scripture that actually SAYS that God “has no beginning”?

Mike

I do not know if there is that reference ,but i understand it that that is what it is ,if not then he as a beginning and there would be another God who would have made or create this one ,and so it would be a never ending story ,this looks more like confusion than order.

but I will check it out ,and let you know

Pierre

[mikeboll64]

Thanks Pierre,

Perhaps you could start a thread: “Is God REALLY from eternity? What do the scriptures really say about it?”

[terraricca]

Mike

in scriptures it says :there is no God beside thee, right ?what do you understand by that ?

Isa;45;
14 Thus saith the Lord of hosts, Egypt has laboured for thee; and the merchandise of the Ethiopians, and the Sabeans, men of stature, shall pass over to thee, and shall be thy servants; and they shall follow after thee bound in fetters, and shall pass over to thee, and shall do obeisance to thee, and make supplication to thee: because God is in thee; and there is no God beside thee, O Lord. 15 For thou art God, yet we knew it not, the God of Israel, the Saviour. 16 All that are opposed to him shall be ashamed and confounded,

Pierre

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