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OK before I reply to your points in your last post, I need to ask 2 questions again, that you appear to be dodging.
I require that they are answered in this debate. Please just the answer, I don't need an essay. This is not a burdensome request and should take about 1 minute of your time.
1) Who is the son mentioned in 1 John 5:20 ?
2) Who is the one who is true that has a son in 1 John 5:20?I assume that we both agree who they are, but I just need you to say it for the record as it will help focus the discussion and dissection of this verse.
Quote (Kangaroo Jack Jr. @ April 08 2011,03:22) t8 said: Quote “I pray that they will know the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent”.
Jesus said this BEFORE He had returned to the glory He had with the Father before the world began.
Jesus called the Father “his God” after his resurrection and while in glory and you will see that it is the same confession about the Father as pre-resurrection. Therefore your point is a moot point.Revelation 3:12
Him who overcomes I will make a pillar in the temple of my God.
Never again will he leave it.
I will write on him the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which is coming down out of heaven from my God; and I will also write on him my new name.Revelation even starts with the truth that the Father is still Jesus God just as he was his God when he walked the Earth. This argument that he was only his God when he was on Earth is no argument at all.
Revelation 1:1
The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place.
He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John,You have clearly lost this point KJ.
Quote (Kangaroo Jack Jr. @ April 08 2011,03:22) Why are you making me repeat this stuff t8? The “laws of exegesis” require that the appellations “the true God” and “the eternal life” be applied to Christ because (1) There is only ONE person who is called by both appellations and (2) it was Jesus Christ John had just mentioned and (3) the second appellation is applied only to Christ throughout John's writings.
If what you say is true and Jesus is the true God and eternal life in 1 John 5:20, then Jesus has a son and worse than that, his son is called Jesus Christ.- We know also that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know him who is true.
- And we are in him who is true by being in his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life.
You see, it is clear that the one who is true has a son called Jesus Christ. In the last verse, the one who is true is referred to as the true God and eternal life.
Now we know that Jesus said that he was the truth and the life and he says this in regards to us because we can only find truth and life in Jesus Christ.
However, when you bring the Father into this then Jesus Christ is most certainly not the truth and life because Jesus life and truth comes from the Father. It is the Father who is the true God and eternal life. You cannot refute that.
If you can refute it, then let's see you type out one post in this debate that says, “The Father IS NOT the true God and eternal life”. Do that, and I will believe that you really believe this. If you do not, then I know that you know that the Father is indeed the true God and eternal life and thus we can move on from here.
So to recap, I and awaiting a post from you with one peice of text, “”The Father IS NOT the true God and eternal life”. If you do not, then lets move on and acknowledge even secretly that I speak the truth on this matter.
Quote (Kangaroo Jack Jr. @ April 08 2011,03:22) t8: Quote John 17:3
Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.John 17:3 gives you a key in unlocking the true meaning of 1 John 5:20
John 17:3 is NOT the “key” to unlocking 1 John 5:20. The “key” is Philippians 2. Paul essentially said that Jesus was God who became servant who became God (Lord) again. Paul said that the bowing of the knee to Christ and the confession of the tongue that Christ is Lord was according to what is “written” that every knee would bow and every tongue would confess YHWH (Isaiah 45). Therefore, Christ is YHWH.
I am lost for words except to say, why am I even debating with someone who makes a post like that. Please send me a worthy opponent. Pass the batten to someone who has the ability to reason.You have little understanding in this matter as evidenced by your point I have quoted.
Quote (Kangaroo Jack Jr. @ April 08 2011,03:22) t8: Quote Now read carefully the NIV 1 John 5:20
20 We know also that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know him who is true. And we are in him who is true by being in his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life.We are in him who is true, (God) by being in his son Jesus Christ. This sorts your misconception out. You also have to admit that this way of reading it is true in principle.
1. I have already shown that John did not use personal pronouns. He used articles and they may be translated “that which is true.” The article is found in 1:1 in the same construction, “That which was from the beginning….”The “true” way of translating 5:20 is thus:
Quote We know also that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know that which is true. And we are in that which is true that is, in his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life.
Again you are making me repeat myself.KJ
OK, I admit that this post is better and is actually worthy enough of a rebuttal at least. I will delay this and look into it and reply when I can.In the meantime, I would sure appreciate your answers to these questions:
1) Who is the son mentioned in 1 John 5:20 ?
2) Who is the one who is true that has a son in 1 John 5:20?When you are done answering, these 2 questions, then I will reply to your post regarding pro-nouns.
Please keep your 2 answers short and direct. E.g., The Father, Jesus…
Quote (t8 @ April 08 2011,11:51) OK before I reply to your points in your last post, I need to ask 2 questions again, that you appear to be dodging. I require that they are answered in this debate. Please just the answer, I don't need an essay. This is not a burdensome request and should take about 1 minute of your time.
1) Who is the son mentioned in 1 John 5:20 ?
2) Who is the one who is true that has a son in 1 John 5:20?I assume that we both agree who they are, but I just need you to say it for the record as it will help focus the discussion and dissection of this verse.
KJ
Question 1. The Son is Jesus Christ, that is it is “the true God” and “the Eternal Life.”Question 2: The one who is “true” in 1 John 5:20 is the Son Jesus Christ as indicated by John. He is the one to whom we address out prayers in verses 13-15.
Verses 13-20 are about Jesus Christ. JOHN'S PURPOSE FOR WRITING THAT SECTION IS TO GIVE US FAITH AND CONFIDENCE IN HIM!
PLEASE answer verses 13-15.
KJ.
Quote (t8 @ April 08 2011,12:00) Quote (Kangaroo Jack Jr. @ April 08 2011,03:22) t8 said: Quote “I pray that they will know the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent”.
Jesus said this BEFORE He had returned to the glory He had with the Father before the world began.
Jesus called the Father “his God” after his resurrection and while in glory and you will see that it is the same confession about the Father as pre-resurrection. Therefore your point is a moot point.Revelation 3:12
Him who overcomes I will make a pillar in the temple of my God.
Never again will he leave it.
I will write on him the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which is coming down out of heaven from my God; and I will also write on him my new name.Revelation even starts with the truth that the Father is still Jesus God just as he was his God when he walked the Earth. This argument that he was only his God when he was on Earth is no argument at all.
Revelation 1:1
The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place.
He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John,You have clearly lost this point KJ.
t8,This is an example of what I said about your making us bothh repeat things. Jesus called the Father His God but NOT His Lord. The word “God” was just a reference to His covenantal relationship with his Father.
SHOW WHERE GOD IS EVER CALLED CHRIST'S “LORD” IN THE SCRIPTURE.
We have gone over this already. PLEASE take this debate FORWARD.
KJ
t8:
Quote We know also that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know him who is true. And we are in him who is true by being in his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life
The personal peonoun “him” is not in the text. it is the definite article “that.” John said that the son came to give us an understanding of THAT which is true. He said that we are in THAT which is true, that is, in His Son Jesus Christ.Quote You see, it is clear that the one who is true has a son called Jesus Christ. In the last verse, the one who is true is referred to as the true God and eternal life.
Yet Jesus Christ is the antecedent of the pronoun. You're in denial t8.Quote However, when you bring the Father into this then Jesus Christ is most certainly not the truth and life because Jesus life and truth comes from the Father. It is the Father who is the true God and eternal life. You cannot refute that.
John said that Jesus christ is “the Eternal Life” (1:1). Nowhere in his writings does he say that the Father is. So why would I impose the Father into it. You said that when there are multiple meanings we must let context decide. But there are no multiple meanings for the expression “the eternal life.” Jesus Christ ALONE is called “the Eternal Life by John EVERYWHERE in his writings.The “laws of exegesis” require that I do NOT bring the Father into it.You are bringing the Father into it on theological and presuppositional grounds and not on exegetical grounnds.
WHEN ARE WE GOING FORWARD T8? WHEN ARE YOU GOING TO ANSWER VERSES 13-15 SIR?
KJ
Quote (Kangaroo Jack Jr. @ April 08 2011,18:53) t8, This is an example of what I said about your making us bothh repeat things. Jesus called the Father His God but NOT His Lord. The word “God” was just a reference to His covenantal relationship with his Father.
SHOW WHERE GOD IS EVER CALLED CHRIST'S “LORD” IN THE SCRIPTURE.
We have gone over this already. PLEASE take this debate FORWARD.
KJ
Makes no difference what you are saying here because you made an assertion that I rebuffed.Just because you give an explanation on something doesn't disqualify from anyone debating that point when you bring it up in a debate does it.
It should only be put to bed when you have proven your point and no rebuttal can be made.
You made the point that Jesus called his Father God while he was on Earth. I made the point that Jesus has always called his Father his God. I backed it up to, so if you do not wish to hear this truth again, then stop making that weak argument or hinting that Jesus called his Father, God only while he was a man on Earth.
And as for this quote of yours:
Quote SHOW WHERE GOD IS EVER CALLED CHRIST'S “LORD” IN THE SCRIPTURE.
It is redicilous and not even topical.It is written that God made Jesus both lord and christ.
Playing with words is not going to change the fact that Jesus is subject to God and owes everything to God.
It is really a matter of respect toward God KJ. Jesus showed us his respect and love for God, so why don't you follow and also respect God and Jesus?
You have no right to include them both in any of your myths.
It is God who dictates truth, not you.
Now we can move forward.
Quote (Kangaroo Jack Jr. @ April 08 2011,18:48) Question 1. The Son is Jesus Christ, that is it is “the true God” and “the Eternal Life.” Question 2: The one who is “true” in 1 John 5:20 is the Son Jesus Christ as indicated by John. He is the one to whom we address out prayers in verses 13-15.
Verses 13-20 are about Jesus Christ. JOHN'S PURPOSE FOR WRITING THAT SECTION IS TO GIVE US FAITH AND CONFIDENCE IN HIM!
I have further questions that will not take a moment of your time.I will answer your post as I said I will, so answering this is not dependent on that.
But I require you to answer truthfully so that I can completely understand your position on this verse.
1) Is the Father mentioned or is he being referenced at all in 1 John 5:20?
2) If so, where exactly is the reference to the Father in 1 John 5:20?
3) If no, then just a quick sentence saying something like,, “The Father is not being referenced or mentioned at all in 1 John 5:20”. You can even copy and paste that sentence which should take you about 20 seconds or less to complete.Thanks.
My next post will likely be a reply to your post.
Although it would be helpful to know the answer to the questions I am asking you because it will narrow down what I have to say. Otherwise I might have to cover all bases as to where you stand with this and you will then naturally refute one or more of those bases, leaving the one you are standing on.
Quote (t8 @ April 08 2011,12:11) Quote (Kangaroo Jack Jr. @ April 08 2011,03:22) t8: Quote John 17:3
Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.John 17:3 gives you a key in unlocking the true meaning of 1 John 5:20
John 17:3 is NOT the “key” to unlocking 1 John 5:20. The “key” is Philippians 2. Paul essentially said that Jesus was God who became servant who became God (Lord) again. Paul said that the bowing of the knee to Christ and the confession of the tongue that Christ is Lord was according to what is “written” that every knee would bow and every tongue would confess YHWH (Isaiah 45). Therefore, Christ is YHWH.
I am lost for words except to say, why am I even debating with someone who makes a post like that. Please send me a worthy opponent. Pass the batten to someone who has the ability to reason.You have little understanding in this matter as evidenced by your point I have quoted.
In Philippians 2 Paul said that every knee should bow to Jesus. He cited Isaiah 45:23-24 which clearly indicates it is YHWH. Therefore, Paul identified Jesus Christ as YHWH.KJ
Quote (t8 @ April 08 2011,19:12) Quote (Kangaroo Jack Jr. @ April 08 2011,18:53) t8, This is an example of what I said about your making us bothh repeat things. Jesus called the Father His God but NOT His Lord. The word “God” was just a reference to His covenantal relationship with his Father.
SHOW WHERE GOD IS EVER CALLED CHRIST'S “LORD” IN THE SCRIPTURE.
We have gone over this already. PLEASE take this debate FORWARD.
KJ
Makes no difference what you are saying here because you made an assertion that I rebuffed.Just because you give an explanation on something doesn't disqualify from anyone debating that point when you bring it up in a debate does it.
It should only be put to bed when you have proven your point and no rebuttal can be made.
You made the point that Jesus called his Father God while he was on Earth. I made the point that Jesus has always called his Father his God. I backed it up to, so if you do not wish to hear this truth again, then stop making that weak argument or hinting that Jesus called his Father, God only while he was a man on Earth.
And as for this quote of yours:
Quote SHOW WHERE GOD IS EVER CALLED CHRIST'S “LORD” IN THE SCRIPTURE.
It is redicilous and not even topical.It is written that God made Jesus both lord and christ.
Playing with words is not going to change the fact that Jesus is subject to God and owes everything to God.
It is really a matter of respect toward God KJ. Jesus showed us his respect and love for God, so why don't you follow and also respect God and Jesus?
You have no right to include them both in any of your myths.
It is God who dictates truth, not you.
Now we can move forward.
For the record you did not 'rebuff' my point for the expression “I shall be His God” or “My God” often refers to a simple covenantal relationship without reference to rank. While Thomas said of Jesus, “My Lord and my God” Jesus did not.The word “Lord” means “Sovereign.” Jesus NEVER said that God is His Sovereign.
KJ
Quote (t8 @ April 08 2011,19:19) Quote (Kangaroo Jack Jr. @ April 08 2011,18:48) Question 1. The Son is Jesus Christ, that is it is “the true God” and “the Eternal Life.” Question 2: The one who is “true” in 1 John 5:20 is the Son Jesus Christ as indicated by John. He is the one to whom we address out prayers in verses 13-15.
Verses 13-20 are about Jesus Christ. JOHN'S PURPOSE FOR WRITING THAT SECTION IS TO GIVE US FAITH AND CONFIDENCE IN HIM!
I have further questions that will not take a moment of your time.I will answer your post as I said I will, so answering this is not dependent on that.
But I require you to answer truthfully so that I can completely understand your position on this verse.
1) Is the Father mentioned or is he being referenced at all in 1 John 5:20?
2) If so, where exactly is the reference to the Father in 1 John 5:20?
3) If no, then just a quick sentence saying something like,, “The Father is not being referenced or mentioned at all in 1 John 5:20”. You can even copy and paste that sentence which should take you about 20 seconds or less to complete.Thanks.
My next post will likely be a reply to your post.
Although it would be helpful to know the answer to the questions I am asking you because it will narrow down what I have to say. Otherwise I might have to cover all bases as to where you stand with this and you will then naturally refute one or more of those bases, leaving the one you are standing on.
NO MORE QUESTIONS UNTIL YOU ANSWER VERSES 13-15.John CLEARLY stated the purpose for his writng this section (5:13-20). John stated that he wrote it in order that we might believe in the name of the Son of God and that we might have confidence in Him. This plays out in our petitioning Him in prayer and expecting that HE will answer if what we ask is according to HIS will.
WE MAY PETITION THE SON IN PRAYER AND HE WILL ANSWER ACCORDING TO HIS WILL. THEREFORE, HE FUNCTIONS AS GOD!
PLEASE ANSWER!
KJ
Quote (Kangaroo Jack Jr. @ April 08 2011,19:25) In Philippians 2 Paul said that every knee should bow to Jesus. He cited Isaiah 45:23-24 which clearly indicates it is YHWH. Therefore, Paul identified Jesus Christ as YHWH.
It is just a pity for you that it says that “that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord. And it says “to the glory of God the Father”, no less.Whereas you are twisting this to say that Jesus Christ is God. No KJ. Jesus Christ is Lord. And it was God that MADE him Lord.
You might as well start confessing that now because every tongue will eventually confess it and I myself have already started. What about you? No, you are confessing that he is God.
It is plain to see that you are not in alignment here.
Quote (Kangaroo Jack Jr. @ April 08 2011,19:30) For the record you did not 'rebuff' my point for the expression “I shall be His God” or “My God” often refers to a simple covenantal relationship without reference to rank. While Thomas said of Jesus, “My Lord and my God” Jesus did not. The word “Lord” means “Sovereign.” Jesus NEVER said that God is His Sovereign.
KJ
Sorry KJ, but my God is the same as Jesus God.Obviously you cannot say the same.
Jesus has a God, now, before, and in the future.
HIS God is MY God. I guess you cannot say the same.
Quote (Kangaroo Jack Jr. @ April 08 2011,19:30) The word “Lord” means “Sovereign.” Jesus NEVER said that God is His Sovereign.
Yeah, what is your point?Jesus never called God, kurios?
Is that your point?
OK, now I come to your last post.
How about you stop posting for now so I can give you your answer.
Otherwise I am obliged to clean up after you when you make those side posts.
Quote (Kangaroo Jack Jr. @ April 08 2011,19:37) NO MORE QUESTIONS UNTIL YOU ANSWER VERSES 13-15. John CLEARLY stated the purpose for his writng this section (5:13-20). John stated that he wrote it in order that we might believe in the name of the Son of God and that we might have confidence in Him. This plays out in our petitioning Him in prayer and expecting that HE will answer if what we ask is according to HIS will.
WE MAY PETITION THE SON IN PRAYER AND HE WILL ANSWER ACCORDING TO HIS WILL. THEREFORE, HE FUNCTIONS AS GOD!
PLEASE ANSWER!
KJ
1 John 5:13-20 (New International Version, ©2011)
13 I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life. 14 This is the confidence we have in approaching God: that if we ask anything according to his will, he hears us. 15 And if we know that he hears us—whatever we ask—we know that we have what we asked of him.OK, KJ. As you you can see plainly see, this is written to me and not you. Why? Because it is written to those who believe that Jesus is the son of God, and you believe that he is God. Therefore it is no surprise that you have butchered the whole meaning of the text. It is not even written to you in the first place.
Further, there is nothing here that teaches that we pray to Jesus. It is talking about petition to God and believing in the name of the son of God so that we may know that we have eternal life.
Your extraction of this verse does not come from this verse, but entirely from your own head.
16 If you see any brother or sister commit a sin that does not lead to death, you should pray and God will give them life. I refer to those whose sin does not lead to death. There is a sin that leads to death. I am not saying that you should pray about that. 17 All wrongdoing is sin, and there is sin that does not lead to death.
Nothing to say here except that we are probably in agreement as to what this means.
18 We know that anyone born of God does not continue to sin; the One who was born of God keeps them safe, and the evil one cannot harm them. 19 We know that we are children of God, and that the whole world is under the control of the evil one. 20 We know also that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know him who is true. And we are in him who is true by being in his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life.
The one who is true in this verse has a son called Jesus Christ. If I asked any believer to name the person who has a son called Jesus Christ, the answer would unanimously be a title of some kind that identifies the Father, such as the Father or God. Yet for some strange reason, you do not answer this way when it comes to this verse. Your answer is Jesus Christ which unfortunately for you means that Jesus Christ has a son called Jesus Christ. I can't even wish you good luck with that one KJ.
KJ, do you concede that I have taught the truth in this debate?
Or do you have something new to oppose me with?Kangaroo Jack versus t8 on christ's divinity
Kangaroo Jack versus t8Outcome:
Kangaroo Jack lost this debate. He couldn't refute t8's view that 1 John 5:20 is not saying that Jesus is the true God. Instead of admitting that he was stumped, he simply stopped posting in this debate.Evidence:
The scripture being debated was 1 John 5:20:
20 We know also that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know him who is true. And we are in him who is true by being in his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life.The killer blow to Kangaroo Jack's argument was this post from t8:
Quote (t8 @ Mar. 10 2011,18:42) First off Roo, your interpretation completely ignores the Father. He is not mentioned at all this verse according to your view. Yet I can prove very easily that the Father is indeed mentioned and that he is the one who is true.
Read this part slowly KJ.
“And we are in him who is true by being in his Son Jesus Christ.”
Who ever is the true one mentioned in this verse, he has to be the father of the son because it clearly says, We are in HIM who is true, by being in HIS son.
Who is the son mentioned here?
We both know it is Jesus Christ.Who is the one who is true that has a son?
We both know deep down that this is the Father and not the son, because Jesus never had a son did he?So by this very simple, clear, and reasonable reading of the text, we can see that the Father is the one who is true and we are in the Father because we are in HIS son.
So all your Greek justification for your view just flew out the window once you see that the one who is true has a son.
Do I hear an amen KJ?
NOTE:
If anyone in the forums from hence forth teach 1 John 5:20 as a Trinity proof verse, (i.e., that according to this verse, Jesus is the true God), then they should be reminded of the outcome of this debate and given a link to this log. If they want to continue to teach that 1 John 5:20 teaches that Jesus is the true God, they first need to provide further evidence that was not contained in this debate and have the new evidence tested in a debate. Upon successfully debating their point, they can freely use that verse as a proof verse.As it stands now, 1 John 5:20 is not a Trinity proof verse. Rather, it is proof that the Father is the true God.
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