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T8,
I hope you have the time to respond to this post.Quote It is really not that hard. For us there is one God the Father.
For others there are others WHO are God.
T8 your taking the same route that Mike took in his debate over “elohim”.Quote Scripture is clear. The Father is the one true God.
All others that are called God/gods are called that in a qualitative sense. i.e., only one is IDENTIFIED as the one true God. He is the originator of all, the Father of spirits.
Scripture is very clear. But you just contradicted yourself into another confusion, how can one be a True God while others exist?
And we know that Jesus created and all things are sustain through him.T8 your basically claiming the same thing mike has been saying and it doesnt have any support from the bible.
Where is the proof first of all that others that are called “god” are actually “supreme beings”?Quote Just as there is one Devil and qualitatively speaking there are many devils, even Judas was called 'devil' qualititaively.
But the bible says he was indwelt by Satan right?Quote If you understand that, then all the confusion goes away and there are no contradictions in scripture regarding that. If you cannot grasp the simple usage of the word God/Theos/Elohim then you are left scratching around for a doctrine that tries to explain everything and in the end you will conclude that even your explanation is beyond understanding.
Of coures not, but first lets deal with the Alternative view.
Are you admitting that Jesus is called God? but is not THE God, its just a title?
and how can you prove that?Mat 24:36 “No one knows when that day or hour will come—not the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father,
Quote Unless t8 can show us in what way Jesus is not exactly as the Father “qualitatively” then it is a moot point. or do you have other qualities in mind ?
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 22 2011,07:59) Sure you can name many trinitys, binities etc, but can you put them together as sharing all authority and power, and all having the same attributes and characteristics and all sharing the same name?
What about 1 Timothy 5:21
“I charge thee before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, and the elect angels.”Angels are called ben elohim. God is Elohim and so are many others. So here are three that can be titled elohim in identity or quality.
If the Trinity is merely 3 who share power and authority then we have another Trinity. Let's call this one Trinity-2
Jesus said that we can be one with God as he is one with God so that we can all be one. Remember he said this jsut before he was taken and crucified? So if we the Body are one, and Jesus is one, and God is one and we can all be one, then we have the Third Trinity.
God and Jesus are mentioned many times without reference to God's Spirit. So we have the Binity.
The man and woman also share authority over the Earth, read about what God said to Adam and Eve. Now we have the Doctrine of the Second Binity.
We also have The Devil, devils, and men who do the Devils bidding. We now have the Evil Trinity.
I could keep going, as the imagination can invent all kinds of doctrines based on such precepts. Peter, James, John could be the Apostrinity for example.
Simplyforgiven, your questions are easy to answer.
1) T8 your taking the same route that Mike took in his debate over “elohim”.
I didn't mention elohim at this point, (in your quote), so your point makes no sense to me.
2) And we know that Jesus created and all things are sustain through him.
Actually we know that God created all through him. So if that is Jesus creating everything, then as long as you understand that it was the Father creating all THROUGH him, then we are in agreement. If not, then we do not agree.
3) Where is the proof first of all that others that are called “god” are actually “supreme beings”?
This is a non-question. Many are called theos in title and not all of them are false gods. Many are under the authority of God. I do not say that all who are theos or elohim are the supreme being. I oppose this.
4) But the bible says he was indwelt by Satan right?
Good run with that understanding/
Jesus said one of you is a devil or have the nature or quality of a devil. We know that this happens because one is under the influence of the Devil.
Jesus did not say, one of you is THE Devil. He did not say that Judas was the Devil himself. If Judas was possessed by the Devil, then Judas is still Judas, but he is influenced by the Devil. He hasn't become the Devil. He didn't grow horns etc. You know what I mean.
5) But you just contradicted yourself into another confusion, how can one be a True God while others exist?
Think of it like this. How can there be one Spirit and yet we know that there are many spirits and that angels are spirits. Well scripture says that the Father is the Father of all spirits. So if there is one Spirit as scripture says, and yet there are many spirits that are of God, then your understanding hits a block. So look at it like this.
All spirits that are good came from God who is a Spirit himself. This now gives you the clue you need to answer your question. Those who are of God or represent him can also be called elohim and theos. Because in effect, they are an extension of him. His hands and feet so to speak. Just as all spirits are of him to. With the exception of those who have been cut off of course. But that happened later.
6) Are you admitting that Jesus is called God? but is not THE God, its just a title?
and how can you prove that?Here are most references to beings who are called theos and elohim. Saying that there all theos and elohim are God the Almighty is simply not supported in scripture. Here is the proof.
THEOS
Below we see a verse where the word 'theos' is used when referring to the Father.
Ephesians 1:3 (English-NIV)
Praise be to the God (theos) and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ.Now you will see a verse where the Greek word 'theos' is possibly used to describe Jesus, although some think that the theos here is the Father. But for argument sake, we will assume that Jesus is the theos in this verse.
John 20:28-29 (English-NIV)
28 Thomas said to him, “My Lord and my God! (theos)”
29 Then Jesus told him, “Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”The word 'theos' in the next verse is used to describe Satan as he is the author of this world/age.
2 Corinthians 4:4 (English-NIV)
The god (theos) of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God (theos).The word (theos) is also used to describe Man see below.
John 10:34 (English-NIV)
Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, `I have said you are gods (theos)'ELOHIM
Malachi 2:10 (English-NIV)
Have we not all one Father ? Did not one God (El) create us?
Why do we profane the covenant of our fathers by breaking faith with one another?The next verse uses the Hebrew word “eloah” which used to describe Jesus.
We will be looking at this scripture in more depth in Part 5 (Scriptures that are used to support the Trinity Doctrine).Isaiah 9:6 (English-NIV)
For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders.
And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God (El), Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.The following verse uses 'Elohim' to denote idols.
Exodus 20:23 (English-NIV)
Do not make any gods (Elohim) to be alongside me; do not make for yourselves gods (Elohim) of silver or gods (Elohim) of gold.The word “Elohim” is the most common word that is translated God in the Old Testament.
Genesis 1:1 (English-NIV) says:
In the beginning God (Elohim) created the heavens and the earth.“Elohim” is also used to describe Man. See next the verse.
Psalms 82:6 (English-NIV)
“I said, `You are “gods” (Elohim); you are all sons of the Most High.'When Jesus said “you are gods (theos)”, as quoted previously on this page, he was actually quoting this Psalm.
Even angels are called gods in Psalm 97:7. This verse is actually quoted in the Hebrews 1:6 and it is referring to the angels.
Psalm 97:7
All who worship images are put to shame, those who boast in idols; worship him, all you gods (elohim)!Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 22 2011,07:50) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 20 2011,20:59) Quote (Kangaroo Jack Jr. @ Jan. 21 2011,09:56) Keith, JA ran out of arguments. Rather than be humble and concede he hurled insults.
jack
Similar to the way YOU do things, huh?
MikeWas that needed?
WJ
Are you flippin' KIDDING ME?!?!?! That would be considered one of the NICEST things HE ever said to or about ME!
Come on, Keith……….show a little impartiality. Weren't you running for moderator?
mike
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 22 2011,07:53) Mike You are not interested in discussing whether there is a Trinity God in the scriptures, because if we take the literal meaning of the scriptures then the Father the Son and the Holy Spirit are God.
The singular name and the definite articles is proof enough to prove my point with JA and the title of this thread.
WJ
Revelation 14:1 NIV
Then I looked, and there before me was the Lamb, standing on Mount Zion, and with him 144,000 who had his name and his Father’s name written on their foreheads.Revelation 3:12 NIV
The one who is victorious I will make a pillar in the temple of my God. Never again will they leave it. I will write on them the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which is coming down out of heaven from my God; and I will also write on them my new name.Sounds like two different beings who have two different names to me.
Keith, I can only think of ONE reason why someone would NOT have a PERSONAL NAME. And that ONE reason is because that “someone” is not an individual PERSON.
Pehaps you can enlighten me about other reasons that a PERSON doesn't have a PERSONAL NAME?
peace and love,
mikeQuote (Kangaroo Jack Jr. @ Jan. 22 2011,09:09) WJ said to t8: Quote The qualitative thing doesn't help you t8 since Jesus is the radiance of the Fathers Glory, the essence of his person, and the visible image of the invisible God.
Yes Keith! As the RADIANCE of God's glory Jesus IS God touching people as the radiance of the sun IS the sun touching things.Radiance of God = God
Jack
OF God, OF God, OF God.Come on Jack. For one to have the radiance OF someone else, then he can't possibly BE that “someone else”.
For one to be the exact representation OF someone else, then he can't possibly BE that “someone else”.
Etc, etc, etc.
mike
Hi T8
Quote 1)I didn't mention elohim at this point, (in your quote), so your point makes no sense to me.
True, But my point was that your case is simliar to Mike. (which didnt go to well for mike)Quote Actually we know that God created all through him. So if that is Jesus creating everything, then as long as you understand that it was the Father creating all THROUGH him, then we are in agreement. If not, then we do not agree.
You state that God created all through him? what God? whom? Define God for the sake of clarification. Of course I agree the Father created beacuse I believe them to be one and the same.
But thats the way I see it, which is easy for me to understand.
But as you wre stating in your last example that “God (Clarity needed)” is the orginator of all things, but we know that Jesus created, so of course Jesus is INCLUDED in this phrase as well.But lets focus your usage of “God”.
Quote This is a non-question. Many are called theos in title and not all of them are false gods. Many are under the authority of God. I do not say that all who are theos or elohim are the supreme being. I oppose this.
Ok Great than we agree unto that point.
So now the question would be how is Jesus not a “supreme being”.Quote Good run with that understanding/ Jesus said one of you is a devil or have the nature or quality of a devil. We know that this happens because one is under the influence of the Devil.
Jesus did not say, one of you is THE Devil. He did not say that Judas was the Devil himself. If Judas was possessed by the Devil, then Judas is still Judas, but he is influenced by the Devil. He hasn't become the Devil. He didn't grow horns etc. You know what I mean.
Actually thats not what I was reffering to at all.
Luke 22:2-4 (King James Version)
2And the chief priests and scribes sought how they might kill him; for they feared the people.
3Then entered Satan into Judas surnamed Iscariot, being of the number of the twelve.
4And he went his way, and communed with the chief priests and captains, how he might betray him unto them.
I couldnt tell if that was sarcasm or not about the good run thing. but ok?
In this case, You said that in reference to Qaulity that Judas was called the devil. but according to scripture (i could be wrong because i never went into deep study in such a topic, so correct me if im wrong) Satan Indwelt Judas.
So Judas was still Judas, but it had nothing to do with Qaulity but possession. So As Judas was still Judas, he was still as much as Satan as Satan was.
Who said the Devil had horns? (Im honestly asking)
Its like if you were to INDWELL in my body, Who am I?
Am I really Dennison.
How would you prove that.
Well for anyone who knows me, they would know for a fact though you look exactly like me with the same body, that you are not Dennison at all. beacuse your Character, your ethics and your works would differ. So because of that, you are not Dennison at all, you are T8.
Lets assume I hack into your account on Heaven.net and started posting under the name of Mike, though the username is the same, you could still tell the difference in the manner I write.
Look at what JA did as he became Astari, we still KNEW it was him, because we KNOW him.So Qualitive would have to be proven in every reference.
Quote Think of it like this. How can there be one Spirit and yet we know that there are many spirits and that angels are spirits. Well scripture says that the Father is the Father of all spirits. So if there is one Spirit as scripture says, and yet there are many spirits that are of God, then your understanding hits a block. So look at it like this. All spirits that are good came from God who is a Spirit himself. This now gives you the clue you need to answer your question. Those who are of God or represent him can also be called elohim and theos. Because in effect, they are an extension of him. His hands and feet so to speak. Just as all spirits are of him to. With the exception of those who have been cut off of course. But that happened later.
Thats nice, but the bible Claims God created Good and Evil.
Actually there are alot of things that are not spiritual as well.
So is God ONLY spiritual? is he not Physical as well?
Let me put of the peice of the puzzle that you forgot to mention which happens to be Jesus Christ.
One cannot represent God without Jesus, which could be called Bene-Elohims of course. We become hands and feet so to speak because Jesus is the HEAD of the body.
And what do you mean those spirits who have been cut off?
do they not still seek “permission” from THIER God.
Dont Demons also regonize God as thier God?Quote Here are most references to beings who are called theos and elohim. Saying that there all theos and elohim are God the Almighty is simply not supported in scripture. Here is the proof.
Ok im not going to repost the Entire thing but i will answer for each scripture that we have already dealt with before.
But before I do i want you to understand what im trying to get at.
I totally agree that being called God doesnt make one God. beacuse Baal was called God and a Molten Calf in Exodus was called “Elohim” but of course they were never gods to begin with. (agreed?)
So the question becomes is that if one is called God they must fullfill the role of what Makes a God, God.
Just like a Father has requierments to be a Father, 1. having a son, 2. being the authoritive responsbility over the son.
What I am going to do is prove to you how each verse you mentioned is not used to promote that Men, angels, or Satans are Gods at all, and never were to begin with.
But in reference to Jesus i will prove otherwise by using the CONTEXT.Lets start with Theos.
Ephesians 1:3- Obviosuly is used for the Father.
John 20:28-29- I agree its about Jesus.
2 Corinthians 4:4- This is where i can prove that Satan is not a God at all. To be a God of an age, is not a god for its a limit to a authority that was never his to begin with. Its permissable by the one True God. and He does this to blind those from seeing the Light which is found in the IMAGE of God. to blind us away from the One True God.
John 10:34- Psalms 82:6- Jesus refers to men being called gods, which in psalms states they will die like fallen princes. context proves they are not gods. What Jesus was getting at if they can easily believe in scriptures why cant believe the same scritpures which testify about him, if they dont believe that, believe his works which come from the father.
Malachi 2:10- Yet we know Jesus created as well, not because the Old Testam
ent says so, because it never mentiosn the Son's particpation in creation, but actually its stated with the NT.Well T8, to be honest im confused. I dont know where you going with these verses. Are you trying to prove that Jesus is not God? becuause your using scriptures that easily are interpreted by thier context, but how does that disprove that Jesus is a diety? And what do you believe the Term God means? is it ONLY a title, beacuse you also use Genesis 1:1 which we know God is used as a noun not a ajective.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 22 2011,14:36) OF God, OF God, OF God. Come on Jack. For one to have the radiance OF someone else, then he can't possibly BE that “someone else”.
For one to be the exact representation OF someone else, then he can't possibly BE that “someone else”.
Etc, etc, etc.
mike
Why is that so hard for some to see I wonder?If 5 apples are equal to 5 oranges in weight, then apples are still not oranges.
If someone is the image of someone else, then they are not that someone else. e.g., the woman is the image of the man. The woman is not the man however.
In nature, Eve was adam, but she was and never will be Adam.
Some people are unteachable Mike because they want to be.
Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Jan. 22 2011,15:37) True, But my point was that your case is simliar to Mike. (which didnt go to well for mike)
I don't know if it went well for Mike or not, or perhaps it was you that lacked understanding. I don't know. I didn't follow that one. But I can assure you that it will go well because I repeat scripture and if anyone refutes that, then their argument is not with me.Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Jan. 22 2011,15:37) You state that God created all through him? what God? whom? Define God for the sake of clarification. Of course I agree the Father created beacuse I believe them to be one and the same.
But thats the way I see it, which is easy for me to understand.
But as you wre stating in your last example that “God (Clarity needed)” is the orginator of all things, but we know that Jesus created, so of course Jesus is INCLUDED in this phrase as well.
Do you have kids?Did you create them, or did God create them through you? (I admit at this point that I do not know if you are male or female, but God creates through both does he not?
Now the head of Christ is God and the head of the woman is man, and the head of man is Christ. Who is the head of God? No one. He is the one true God. The only God. In otherwords all else is OF him. Even Jesus is OF him. Jesus came from God. Jesus cannot be both God and OF God. If you do not believe that, then you need to re-evaluate your faith according to this verse:
John 8:42 (English NIV)
Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and now am here. I have not come on my own; but he sent me.Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Jan. 22 2011,15:37) So now the question would be how is Jesus not a “supreme being”.
There are plenty of verses I could give you, but I will give you the same one I gave you in the last post.John 8:42 (English NIV)
Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and now am here. I have not come on my own; but he sent me.Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Jan. 22 2011,15:37) So Judas was still Judas, but it had nothing to do with Qaulity but possession. So As Judas was still Judas, he was still as much as Satan as Satan was.
Who said the Devil had horns? (Im honestly asking)
It does. He is either devil in identity making him the Devil or in nature/quality/characteristic. Jesus never called Judas THE Devil. That is my point. He called him devil. In English we add “a” to make the sentence intelligible.So not Judas was not as much Satan as Satan was. Satan didn't hang himself for a start. Satan probably still has no remorse.
Who said the Devil had horns? I guess that one was lost on you. It was a figure of speech to describe in few words that Judas didn't become Satan. I am surprised that one threw you. I won't assume that you will understand next time, so I will be more careful to cater to your understanding. In case you haven't figured it yet, I am not saying nor do I believe that he has horns.
Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Jan. 22 2011,15:37) So Qualitive would have to be proven in every reference.
Greek language is helpful here.THE in Greek identifies. Lack of the definite article (THE) qualifies.
If I say THE river in Greek, they will want to know WHICH one.
If I say river, then they might want an explanation about the general nature of a river.We have this also in English. If I say, you are an angel, I am saying you are like an angel, or have the nature of an angel. On the other hand, if I say, You are the angel. Then I am actually identifying you as a specific angel.
See how the word angel can be used here. TO identify or qualify. So it is with theos and elohim.
This is why Paul could say as I do that for us, there is one God, the Father. Because there is only one who is in identity THE God. Qualitatively speaking, theos and elohim has a wide range of applications beyond the Most High God.
Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Jan. 22 2011,15:37) Thats nice, but the bible Claims God created Good and Evil.
Actually there are alot of things that are not spiritual as well.
So is God ONLY spiritual? is he not Physical as well?
Let me put of the peice of the puzzle that you forgot to mention which happens to be Jesus Christ.
One cannot represent God without Jesus, which could be called Bene-Elohims of course. We become hands and feet so to speak because Jesus is the HEAD of the body.
And what do you mean those spirits who have been cut off?
do they not still seek “permission” from THIER God.
Dont Demons also regonize God as thier God?
Getting off topic here, but suffice to say that some are cut of from God in that they have lost eternal life. In the same way a branch may be cut off from the tree, it doesn't die immediately.Let's try to keep to the topic because if we challenge every little comment, then it gets too tiresome.
Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Jan. 22 2011,15:37) Lets start with Theos.
Ephesians 1:3- Obviosuly is used for the Father.
John 20:28-29- I agree its about Jesus.
2 Corinthians 4:4- This is where i can prove that Satan is not a God at all. To be a God of an age, is not a god for its a limit to a authority that was never his to begin with. Its permissable by the one True God. and He does this to blind those from seeing the Light which is found in the IMAGE of God. to blind us away from the One True God.
Satan is a God. He is the God of this age. YHWH is not the God of this age. He is the God of the Earth, but not the age/world.A God is the creator and originator of something. Sure Satan is subject to the laws and boundaries that YHWH has set. But Satan is still a God, the God of this age. With that came certain power and authority which he even tried to give to Jesus at one point. This is another topic however.
Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Jan. 22 2011,15:37) Well T8, to be honest im confused. I dont know where you going with these verses. Are you trying to prove that Jesus is not God? becuause your using scriptures that easily are interpreted by thier context, but how does that disprove that Jesus is a diety? And what do you believe the Term God means? is it ONLY a title, beacuse you also use Genesis 1:1 which we know God is used as a noun not a ajective.
Be confused no longer.There is one God the Father.
Jesus is the son of this God, the messiah, the Logos of God.
Jesus is not the son of himself.
God the Father is not the son and vice versa.Just as Jesus is like God, we can be like God and like Jesus. We are all different identities, but we can all be like in nature and character.
If you are preaching Oneness, then I can assure you that when God knows the day and the hour and the son doesn't it is not because God forgets when he turns into flesh.
God is not a man. God cannot die. God is not limited in knowledge.
Jesus is not God. He is of God. He came from God. He was sent by God. He is the image of God. Similarly Eve is not Adam. She is of Adam. She was the image of Adam. She came from Adam. But she wasn't Adam.
Quote (t8 @ Jan. 22 2011,20:27) Some people are unteachable Mike because they want to be.
Hi t8,These people aren't mentally slow, for these same people understand completely that Moses was not God Almighty although God Himself said, “I will make you God to Pharaoh” and “perform before Pharaoh all the wonders I have given you the power to do“. Moses even had his very own prophet.
These people will happily point out that Moses died, so that right there says he wasn't really God, but only His representative. They will point out that he only performed miracles THROUGH the power of his God.
But they just as happily are willing to purposely forget that Jesus also died, was also a representative OF his God, and performed his miracles THROUGH the power of his God, just as Moses did. He said so.
It's frustrating sometimes, but these people are a catalyst for me to really deeply examine scripture………….so it's all good I guess.
peace and love,
mikeQuote (t8 @ Jan. 21 2011,21:51) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 22 2011,07:59) Sure you can name many trinities, binities etc, but can you put them together as sharing all authority and power, and all having the same attributes and characteristics and all sharing the same name?
What about 1 Timothy 5:21
“I charge thee before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, and the elect angels.”Angels are called ben elohim. God is Elohim and so are many others. So here are three that can be titled elohim in identity or quality.
If the Trinity is merely 3 who share power and authority then we have another Trinity. Let's call this one Trinity-2
Hi t8This is simply a smoke screen t8 and once again does not address Matt 28:19 which tells us the three have the definite article and share the “Same Name“.
You often talk about the importance of the definite article don't you?
Do the elect angels share the same name? Do the elect angels have all authority?
You understand that the name in Hebrew also represents the character and attributes of the one who carries it.
Jesus gave the command that making disciples and baptizing them was to be done in the name (singular) of the three.
Please don't avoid this point t8. There is a big difference in what you are saying about trinities. Not to mention we seldom see the “elect angels” even mentioned in the NT but we do see tons of scriptures mentioning the three, the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit don't we?
The only option you and others have concerning Mathew 28:19 is to deny its validity and claim corruption and that can not be proved and leads you down a slippery slope of claiming the scriptures are corrupt and that would leave you with a two edged sword that could swing both ways.
Blessings Keith
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