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HI Jack,
1Thess.5:18 In every thing give thanks: for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus concerning you.
Witnessing to the world in behalf of YHVH! (Psalm 45:17)
117=יהוה האלהים (JEHOVAH GOD) YÄ-hä-vā hä ĔL-ō-Hêêm!
Ed J (AKJV Isaiah 49:16 / Isaiah 60:14 / Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org …(Eccl.9:12-16)Hi Keith,
Don't you even notice that all you do is try to recirculate the same flawed “proof texts” over and over? Of course you do.
That's all you have. 
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 23 2011,09:43)
you have admitted that “being called God can mean that one is God“.
Yes Keith, I said that. And seeing how YHVH is called “god” many times in scripture, I'd say it goes without saying, right? Deborah being called “god” doesn't mean she is NOT God, but it doesn't mean she IS, right? Same with Moses, certain angels, and the kings referred to in Psalm 45:6 and 138:1, right?So we have established that being called “god” doesn't mean you are NOT God Almighty, but it sure as the gospel doesn't mean you ARE God Almighty. There is no need to discuss this any further. Just as there is no need to discuss the scriptures where Jesus is called by the title of “god” any further, because they only prove that Jesus was called by a title that many others in scripture were also called by. And by your own words, “just because Jesus is called God does not mean he is God.” This point has been SOLIDLY established and agreed upon by BOTH OF US, so let's stop circling around John 1:1, 1:18, 20:28, Titus 2:13 and Hebrews 1:8……………and move on to something that really DOES teach us that Jesus is God Almighty, okay?
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 23 2011,09:43)
But for some reason I never hear you call him your god. All you ever do is claim that he is not god. What gives Mike?
I have told you this many times, Keith. This time I will post it in my new thread about points that need not be brought up again, just so we're all sure about my DIRECT and COMPLETE answer to your point. That way, you never need to bring this point up again, right?Keith, if the word “god” meant to us today what it meant to the people of Biblical times, I would gladly call Jesus “my god”. But it doesn't. Today, we wouldn't refer to “Judge Judy” as “God Judy”. Today we wouldn't call the king of a country the “god” of that country. Today, if an angel brought us a message from God, we would tell people that an angel appeared to us. We would not tell them that “God” appeared to us.
But this is now, and that was then. Things were different then. Back then, they DID call judges “gods”. They DID call kings “gods”. They DID call angels “gods”. And back then, if someone called Jesus “god”, it would have been understood (ESPECIALLY by the Jews, who were STRICTLY monotheistic), that Jesus was being called a “leader” or “judge” or “ruler” or “mighty one” or “a vice regent of God”.
So back to your points:
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 23 2011,09:43)
But for some reason I never hear you call him your god.
This is because of the way we today understand the word “god”, as opposed to the way people in Biblical times understood the words “el”, “elohim” and “theos”. I do not want to confuse people by calling Jesus by the title of “god”, and having them think I am calling him the only true God. If I lived in the 1st century A.D., I would happily tell everyone that Jesus was my god. But I live in the 21st century A.D., and so I will say he is my Lord, my King, my Ruler, and my Savior………….but I will not say he is “my god”, because of the confusion it would create.Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 23 2011,09:43)
All you ever do is claim that he is not god.
What I do is SCRIPTURALLY show you every day that Jesus is not “God Almighty”. I understand that he is the only begotten Son of the only true God. I understand that he is the second most powerful being in existence. I understand that he is my Lord and my King, and all knees will bow to him. And knowing what WE both know about the words “elohim” and “theos”, I'm not really claiming that Jesus is not “A god”, or “A mighty one”. I'm claiming that he is not THE ALMIGHTY ONE.Keith, do you understand now? I will post this in the other thread. And I will address your other points in another post, since this one is pretty long already.
peace and love,
mikeQuote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 23 2011,09:43)
It is all about context Mike. Jesus is God and the facts back it up.
No SCRIPTURAL fact backs that up at all.Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 23 2011,09:43)
Nothing has come into being without him
That's because his God chose to create all things through him.Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 23 2011,09:43)
and he sits in the Throne of God having “Sovereign rule” over all creation as King of Kings and Lord of Lords
True, until he hands the Kingdom back over to Him who put everything under him in the first place. Then he will rule as a PRINCE to his God, from the throne of DAVID. Jehovah says, “my servant David will be their Prince, and I will be their God”. Is there something you don't understand about this statement?Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 23 2011,09:43)
Not only does Jesus have the title God but he is currently in the position and role of God.
True, Jesus has been called by the title of “god”. But we are not discussing this anymore, right? You have clearly said that Jesus being called “god” does not mean he IS “God”. And currently, he is at the right hand OF his God, which is NOT the “same position”. And he is in that prestiged position for one reason: His God EXALTED HIM to His right hand as Prince and Savior. And his “role” is the only begotten Son of the Being of The Only True God, the Father.Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 23 2011,09:43)
When are you going to prove to us that Jesus is less than the Father Mike?
“You heard me say, ‘I am going away and I am coming back to you.’ If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I. I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.Done.
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 23 2011,09:43)
When are you going to give Jesus the same honour as the Father?
I won't. I honor the Father as my only true God. I honor Jesus as the Savior the Father sent as a sacrifice for me. They have different roles, and deserve different honors. Honor and glory go hand in hand. And my God warned me that He will share His own glory with NO OTHER. His Son is an “other”.Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 23 2011,09:43)
Mike you say the Father is your God and Jesus is your god, but can you tell us how the two in nature or being differ in being your God?
Jesus is the Son of my God. He shares my God's nature, just as my son shares my nature. My son is LIKE me in many ways. And to say he is LIKE me is also to say in the same breath that he is NOT me. Jesus is LIKE his God in many ways, but the same rule applies. If Jesus is LIKE the Being of The Only True God, then he is NOT the Being of The Only True God.Anyway, they differ in “being” because they are two separate beings. I don't believe they differ in nature, for they are both powerful spirit beings. They share the same nature, just as MY son and I share the same nature. We are not the same being though, and neither are Jesus and HIS Father.
Keith, let's stop the run around. You said, “Jesus is God and the facts back it up.” Let's you and I discuss those “facts” one at a time. Let's continue what Francis and I started. We had a good thing going. We were taking one point or scripture at a time and seeing if that point or scripture really DID say that Jesus is God Almighty. Are you man enough to relieve Francis of his duties? Can you continue the debate for him? I can't believe in a month that he wouldn't have posted one line to let us know he was still around. I'm beginning to think like Ed – that he has smartly bailed from a losing proposition.
Put your money where you mouth is, Keith. Jump on the Francis debate thread, and post your very first “Jesus is God” proof point or scripture. Then we'll discuss ONLY that point or scripture until it's done. We won't have to mess with Heb 1:8 though, because even IF it is translated as YOU prefer, it only proves that Jesus is called “god”, and by your own words, that proves nothing.
Go ahead. Francis already offered you to take over months ago.
Look Keith, if you don't want to take this offer, then I don't know how much longer I can put up with you. You keep making the same points to me over and over. I've answered them, but you keep making them. Not ONE of them has ever proved that Jesus is God Almighty. Can't you see that? And not ONE of them ever will. Can't you see THAT?
Look at what I put up with. After saying that IF Titus 2:13 was translated the way Jack prefers it, it still only calls Jesus “theos”, which doesn't prove anything, as you've all admitted. But he ignores this fact, and not only posts the same thing again, but even starts a new thread about it.
How many times will you guys ADMIT that being called “god” doesn't mean Jesus is God, but then use the argument that Jesus is called “god” as proof anyway?
I can't deal with the same things over and over forever. I want closure on David's throne. I want closure on “he will be their Prince, and I will be their God”. I want closure on Micah 5:4. And so many other things. But you and I START discussing those things, and the next thing I know, we are back discussing the fact that Jesus being called “god” means he is God Almighty – even though you've CLEARLY admitted that this is NOT the case.
Take the leap of faith, Keith. Put your money where your mouth is. Stand and DEFEND your flawed man-made doctrine that makes sane people throw logic and common sense out the window. You have my permission to take up where Francis left off.
mike
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 23 2011,10:01) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 22 2011,20:53) What I have done is point out to you that even IF your preferred translation of 2:13 is the correct one, it is still only a case of Jesus being called “theos”.
MikeNo it is “Great theos” not just “theos”. Do you know of any other called “My Great theos and Savour”?
WJ
And your point is?Doesn't the word “great” and the word “mighty” mean basically the same thing?
So if Jehovah foretold that Jesus would be called “mighty god”, and then Paul called him “great god”, wouldn't that be a case of a prophecy being fulfilled?
But you are forgetting that it IS equally grammatically possible that 2:13 says, “the great God, AND our Savior Jesus Christ.” I haven't looked into the GSR, or checked all the applicable scriptures, but I'll tell you one thing that is a fact: Jack has posted DEFINITE STATEMENTS from both Barnes and TWOT that I personally have proven inaccurate. For example, TWOT says that EVERY TIME the word “adonay” is used in scripture, it refers ONLY to Jehovah. But I have showed two scriptures where virtually every Bible agrees that “adonay” does NOT refer to Jehovah. I don't remember what the Barnes one was right off the top of my head, but it was proven false by me in the “Plural God” debate that Jack and I had. So that just goes to show that even the GSR is not “infallible”. And since the Greek words DO grammatically allow for “the great God AND our Savior Jesus Christ”, and since 1:4 has a similarly worded sentence that DOES SAY “God our Father AND our Savior Jesus Christ”, then I don't put too much faith in the GSR.
And once again, who cares? Even if it DOES call Jesus “our great god”, it is only fulfilling scripture, and doesn't even imply, let alone PROVE that Jesus is God Almighty. And considering the KNOWN fact that God Almighty IS the God of Jesus, you are barking up the stupid tree with this one.
mike
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 23 2011,10:26)
What, are you stacking the commentary of non Biblical scholars like the biased Watch Tower commitee against 25 Biblical Hebrew and Greek scholars?
No, I'm posting the SCHOLAR that they quoted as saying, “the great God AND our Savior Jesus Christ” is GRAMMATICALLY POSSIBLE……………..and Preferrable. Even IF you could show me how my preferred translation is not even a remote possibility, what are you left with? A scripture that fulfills an Isaiah prophecy?Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 23 2011,10:26)
Remember it is you that is trying to prove Jesus is not God though the scriptures say he is!
No, I don't “remember that”. Jesus is the Son of THE SINGLE BEING OF GOD. As such, he cannot BE the SINGLE BEING OF GOD. And although there is much other proof in the scriptures that Jesus is NOT God Almighty, that is really all the proof I need. Now if YOU want to comically override human logic and common sense to show how the Son OF a being can BE the same being he is the Son OF, then go for it.You have an uphill battle ahead of you, though. After showing how the son OF a particular being can be the being he is the son of, you then have to show how a Priest TO God can be God Himself. And how a Mediator BETWEEN God and mankind can be God Himself. And why we must go THROUGH Jesus to reach God, when we would have already reached God if Jesus WAS God. And how God is a “HE” and not a “THEY”. And there's really too many more to even mention.
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 23 2011,10:26)
Therefore according to your statement “Someone being referred to as God could be God” means that Paul could be referring to “The God”, right? Now you have to prove how he is not God and you have had plenty of time to do that and haven't.
This is a desparate act on your part, Keith. To assert that I'M the one who has to prove a negative when everything about the scriptures speaks of Jesus as someone OTHER THAN and LESSOR TO his God is truly out of desparation. You want proof? Jesus sits at the right hand OF HIS GOD. God is only ONE BEING, right? If Jesus is the SAME BEING AS THE ONE AND ONLY GOD, then he couldn't very well sit at the right hand OF THAT BEING. Sheesh!
Hi Mike! Good posts, I wonder though if Keith will render His believe. One thing is certain, most people don't know what Gods name is. They call Him God and that's it. We are the few that know God is a title, and both Jesus and God have other names….Sad also that most believe in the trinity….One day all will know…to that day I am forever looking forward to….
Peace and love IreneQuote (Ed J @ Feb. 24 2011,08:33) HI Jack, 1Thess.5:18 In every thing give thanks: for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus concerning you.
Witnessing to the world in behalf of YHVH! (Psalm 45:17)
117=יהוה האלהים (JEHOVAH GOD) YÄ-hä-vā hä ĔL-ō-Hêêm!
Ed J (AKJV Isaiah 49:16 / Isaiah 60:14 / Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org …(Eccl.9:12-16)
Ed,The verse you give proves what I am saying that the preposition “in” many instances cannot be understood in the locative sense. It makes no sense when understood as the locative in the verse you give. It means, “This is the will of God in respect to or on the basis of Christ concerning you.” This is the conditional use of the preposition.
Moulton's Analytical Greek Lexicon says that the Greek “ev” (in) in many instances means in respect to. I have given the example from Jesus' statement, “This is the new covenant in My blood.” This is the conditional use. It means, “This is the new covenant on the basis of or in respect to My blood.” To say that the new covenant is locatively in Christ's blood is nonsense.
When Jesus used the preposition in the locative sense regarding His union with His Father He said, “The Father is IN me AND I IN Him. You have admitted that both clauses are EQUALLY true. I repeat: You said that both clauses are EQUALLY true! Therefore, Jesus is IN the Father just as the Father is IN Jesus.
ACQUAINT YOURSELF WITH GREEK SYNTAX ED!
KJ
Quote (Kangaroo Jack Jr. @ Feb. 24 2011,02:45) You have admitted that both clauses are EQUALLY true. I repeat: You said that both clauses are EQUALLY true! Therefore, Jesus is IN the Father just as the Father is IN Jesus. ACQUAINT YOURSELF WITH GREEK SYNTAX ED!
KJ
So says the great Eusebius of the 21st century…………..who claims he is the SAME BEING as his father.Jack, remember what you just taught Ed about the “conditional” use of “en”. I have a feeling I will be using this very teaching against you at some point. At least that's the way it's been for two years now. You teach me something about the Greek language, or the early church fathers, or whatever………and it always ends up coming back to bite YOU in the butt.
mike
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 24 2011,11:12) I'm beginning to think like Ed – that he has smartly bailed from a losing proposition.
Hi Mike,Francis obviously bailed because the debate didn't turn out the way he expected to.
He bailed on me when I changed the wording to something he found distasteful.
He said …'Jesus was both 100% God and 100% human.'… For discussion purposes I used…
“You believe Jesus was 100% not God and 100% God?”… to which he found very offensive.With the wording I choose: we could get to the bottom of his belief structure. (Click Here)
To see where “The Truth” lies; But some don't seek agreement, to bad, you know?
When confronted with “The Truth”, either people will conform or 'RUN' !
Because: “TRUTH IS TRUTH REGARDLESS WHO SAYS IT“ …Ed JYour brother
in Christ, Jesus!
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgMike said:
Quote Jack, remember what you just taught Ed about the “conditional” use of “en”. I have a feeling I will be using this very teaching against you at some point.
I doubt it Mike.Jack
Quote (Ed J @ Feb. 25 2011,13:36) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 24 2011,11:12) I'm beginning to think like Ed – that he has smartly bailed from a losing proposition.
Hi Mike,Francis obviously bailed because the debate didn't turn out the way he expected to.
He bailed on me when I changed the wording to something he found distasteful.
He said …'Jesus was both 100% God and 100% human.'… For discussion purposes I used…
“You believe Jesus was 100% not God and 100% God?”… to which he found very offensive.With the wording I choose: we could get to the bottom of his belief structure. (Click Here)
To see where “The Truth” lies; But some don't seek agreement, to bad, you know?
When confronted with “The Truth”, either people will conform or 'RUN' !
Because: “TRUTH IS TRUTH REGARDLESS WHO SAYS IT“ …Ed JYour brother
in Christ, Jesus!
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
Ed,I want to remind you again that you have admitted that that Jesus' being IN the Father is equally true with the Father being IN Jesus.
I said:
Quote When Jesus used the preposition in the locative sense regarding His union with His Father He said, “The Father is IN me AND I IN Him. You have admitted that both clauses are EQUALLY true. I repeat: You said that both clauses are EQUALLY true! Therefore, Jesus is IN the Father just as the Father is IN Jesus. KJ
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 23 2011,19:58) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 23 2011,10:26)
Therefore according to your statement “Someone being referred to as God could be God” means that Paul could be referring to “The God”, right? Now you have to prove how he is not God and you have had plenty of time to do that and haven't.
This is a desparate act on your part, Keith. To assert that I'M the one who has to prove a negative when everything about the scriptures speaks of Jesus as someone OTHER THAN and LESSOR TO his God is truly out of desparation.
MikeYou have to prove the negative because the positive is Tit 2:13 calls Jesus “the Great God and Savour”, and you have admitted that it could be translated that way because Isaiah prophesied that Jesus would be called the “Mighty God”.
Now unless you can show us in what way Jesus is “Not God” since the scriptures say he is then you are the one who is desperate to make Jesus into someone less than God when the scriptures say he is.
Contextually we have proven why Jesus is God because of his active role as “co-creator” with the Father and his “Sovereign Rule” over the Universe!
You on the other hand have proven nothing because you have nothing that can overcome the scriptures or the Forefathers or the thousands of scholars and believers all over the world that disagree with you and your Henotheistic views.
You say satan is “The God of this world” yet you fight against Jesus being “The God of the Universe”.
Because of Jesus position, his nature, his character and his attributes, the evidence for Jesus being God far out ways the so-called evidence he is not.
You said yourself…
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 05 2011,18:35) Jesus is the god, or “powerful ruler” of all in heaven right now, and of the believer's on earth.
That interprets to you saying “Jesus is your god”.In what sense is Jesus not God right now?
Please answer the question.
WJ
Quote (Kangaroo Jack Jr. @ Feb. 26 2011,03:54) Quote (Ed J @ Feb. 25 2011,13:36) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 24 2011,11:12) I'm beginning to think like Ed – that he has smartly bailed from a losing proposition.
Hi Mike,Francis obviously bailed because the debate didn't turn out the way he expected to.
He bailed on me when I changed the wording to something he found distasteful.
He said …'Jesus was both 100% God and 100% human.'… For discussion purposes I used…
“You believe Jesus was 100% not God and 100% God?”… to which he found very offensive.With the wording I choose: we could get to the bottom of his belief structure. (Click Here)
To see where “The Truth” lies; But some don't seek agreement, to bad, you know?
When confronted with “The Truth”, either people will conform or 'RUN' !
Because: “TRUTH IS TRUTH REGARDLESS WHO SAYS IT“ …Ed JYour brother
in Christ, Jesus!
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
Ed,I want to remind you again that you have admitted that that Jesus' being IN the Father is equally true with the Father being IN Jesus.
I said:
Quote When Jesus used the preposition in the locative sense regarding His union with His Father He said, “The Father is IN me AND I IN Him. You have admitted that both clauses are EQUALLY true. I repeat: You said that both clauses are EQUALLY true! Therefore, Jesus is IN the Father just as the Father is IN Jesus. KJ
Hi Jack,What does that have to do with anything?
Are you claiming God is 100% human?
You do not explain yourself very well?God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 26 2011,14:28) Quote (Ed J @ Feb. 24 2011,20:36) “TRUTH IS TRUTH REGARDLESS WHO SAYS IT”
AMEN to that, Ed.
Hi Mike,Yea, I like that saying! I use it often.
Your brother
in Christ, Jesus!
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 25 2011,12:12) In what sense is Jesus not God right now? Please answer the question.
Keith, I've answered it so many times I can't count them all. The real question is, “When will you DEAL WITH those points I've made over and over?”Look, we are overlapping the same topics in three or four threads now. Let's consolidate our discussions to Francis's and my debate thread………….and take up where he left off.
OR………………..let's at least pick one of the 4 threads we're discussing in right now, and continue on only that thread, okay?
I pick the “t8 essence” thread that Jack started, because I'm really interested to see your response to my response about your “hammer analogy”.
mike
Quote (Ed J @ Feb. 25 2011,21:34) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 26 2011,14:28) Quote (Ed J @ Feb. 24 2011,20:36) “TRUTH IS TRUTH REGARDLESS WHO SAYS IT”
AMEN to that, Ed.
Hi Mike,Yea, I like that saying! I use it often.
Your brother
in Christ, Jesus!
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
Good color Ed.Stick with that one as your default! It shows up good, it's pretty, and no one else uses green.
mike
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 26 2011,14:37) Quote (Ed J @ Feb. 25 2011,21:34) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 26 2011,14:28) Quote (Ed J @ Feb. 24 2011,20:36) “TRUTH IS TRUTH REGARDLESS WHO SAYS IT”
AMEN to that, Ed.
Hi Mike,Yea, I like that saying! I use it often.
Your brother
in Christ, Jesus!
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
Good color Ed.Stick with that one as your default! It shows up good, it's pretty, and no one else uses green.
mike
Hi Mike,This color is more my style.
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
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