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February 19, 2011 at 11:15 pm#236339

Ed J

Participant

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 20 2011,08:54)

Quote (Ed J @ Feb. 19 2011,15:29)

Hi WJ,

What correcting to you mean?
And what truth are you referring to?

Mike said…

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 19 2011,12:54)

I agree with YOU that Thomas did say his statement to JESUS alone, not to God AND Jesus. Why? Because it says “to HIM” and not “to THEM”.

Do you see that he disagrees with you?

I will give him credit for being honest enough to admit the clear reading of the text.

But what about you?

Hi WJ,

I have explained this to you an Page 25, Post 4, and
Page 26 Posts 4 and 5; but you refuse to consider this.

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

February 20, 2011 at 10:02 am#236606

Proclaimer

Participant

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 20 2011,03:59)

Did you know that “us” created us in his own image yet God says “By himself”, “alone” and with “no other” created all things?

Its easy for you guys to reject clear scripture with inferrence when it is put before you.

You guys will do anything even to saying the scripture is corrupt if you have to.

It is written that the “the sons of God shouted for joy” when He laid the foundations of the earth. Regardless of what if any participation ANgels may or may not have had, we can be assured that God made all things through Jesus Christ. He made all things through the Logos. So we can at least see that it could be God talking to Christ. Again, no Trinity here.

Now back to God being a HIM and everything being HIS.

Your doctrine should allow for THEM and THEY.

So how come you do not have enough faith in your own doctrine?

You should be allowed to say THEM, next time you refer to the Trinity. You see you address persons, not substance.

This is another idea that you run away from WJ. Another Hot Seat or debate perhaps?

February 20, 2011 at 4:49 pm#236627

mikeboll64

Blocked

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 20 2011,05:23)

Mike

Your question once again is loaded because it assumes that God never refers to himself in the plural just because 7000 times plus he refers to himself in the singular.

Hi Keith,

There's nothing “loaded” about my question at all. YOU are the one who can coherently understand 20:28 and boldly explain to Ed that because it says “HIM” and not “THEM”, it refers ONLY to the SINGULAR BEING of Jesus Christ. Yet it is YOU who is at the same time so blind to the 7000 times God is referred to as a”HE” or a “HIM”.

If “HIM” so plainly and logically demonstrates that Thomas was speaking ONLY to the SINGULAR BEING of Jesus Christ, then why shouldn't it be equally plain and logical that God is referred to as a SINGULAR BEING more than 7000 times in scripture?

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 20 2011,05:23)

Let us (plural) make man in our (plural) image.

Let's weigh the options here, Keith. If 1:26 is showing God to be a “plural being” who is talking to Himself (Themselves), then why not be consistent throughout scripture? Why would God refer to Himself (Themselves) as a plural being only TWICE (thrice counting Isaiah 6:8) in the whole of scripture? If God really IS a “Themselves”, then God would ALWAYS be a “Themselves”, right? Why 7000 singulars and only 3 plurals?

On the flipside, is it possible that God was speaking TO someone else? Granted, it would have to be someone else who shared His image for Him to say “OUR” image, right? Hmmmm…………….who else do we know of that is the “exact representation” of God and the “visible image of the invisible God”? Oh………..and it would have to be someone who DID have a hand in creation, for it says, “Let US make man in OUR image”. Hmmmmm………….is there someone we know of who is said to have all things created through him?

Come on, Keith. Which makes more sense? That God was “plural” only 3 times out of thousands? Or that God spoke to someone else?

Okay – enough of the diversion and back to my “loaded” question.

Keith, it is YOU who is smart enough to know that Thomas spoke to the SINGULAR BEING of Jesus Christ because of the simple little word “HIM”. Why are you NOT smart enough to understand that God must also be a SINGULAR BEING when He is referred to as “HE” and “HIM” – not just ONCE, like in the case you are defending against Ed – but 7000 times?

peace and love,
mike

February 20, 2011 at 5:25 pm#236630

mikeboll64

Blocked

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 20 2011,05:31)

Are you afraid to correct Ed with the truth because he might not be on your side? Yea stroke each other because that is what you have to do to attack the truth.

Hi Keith,

I'm having deja vu here. I remember asking you the same thing about SF, who believes the Son actually IS the Father. But you two never took the bait and debated this.

Don't worry, I speak scripturally against and for anyone on this site. Ed and Gene I have already discussed John 20:28, and they already know I don't agree that Thomas was “seeing the Father in Jesus” when he said what he said.

He was simply calling Jesus “my ruler”, which he is. Keith, did you know there are many who are called “god”, but only ONE “TRUE GOD”?

Seeing that Jesus' God is the same as our God, I would venture that, although he is a god, or ruler in his own right, he is not the “Only True God”. That title belongs to the One who is the “Head of Christ”.

So you are correct that the “HIM” clearly identifies the SINGULAR BEING that Thomas is speaking to. But you are dead wrong that Jesus being called “theos” by Thomas is any indication that Jesus is God Almighty, who is also the God OF Jesus.

mike

February 20, 2011 at 11:25 pm#236653

Ed J

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 21 2011,03:25)

Hi Keith,

Ed and Gene I have already discussed John 20:28, and they already know
I don't agree that Thomas was “seeing the Father in Jesus” when he said what he said.

mike

Hi Mike,

Why do you think Jesus was able to heal people?
Do you “think” these ideas may be connected?

And one of them(the ten leapers), when he saw that he was healed,
turned back, and with a loud voice glorified God, (Luke 17:15)
Was the leaper (as WJ may assume) calling Jesus: “God”?
Luke 17:17 And Jesus answering said, Were there
not ten cleansed? but where are the nine?

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

February 21, 2011 at 1:03 am#236680

mikeboll64

Blocked

Quote (Ed J @ Feb. 21 2011,09:25)

And one of them(the ten leapers), when he saw that he was healed,
turned back, and with a loud voice glorified God, (Luke 17:15)
Was the leaper (as WJ may assume) calling Jesus: “God”?

Let's not jump overboard here, Ed.

Does the scripture say that the leper said to JESUS, “God, I glorify you”?

Saying, “Thank you God, for I am healed” is a far cry from Thomas saying “to HIM, my lord and my god”.

Ed, I agree with you that there is no trinity. But we can't just pretend that scriptures don't say what they clearly say to defend our beliefs. If we did that, we would be like the non-preexisters and the trinitarians.

Let's not be like them, for they speak of unscriptural things.

mike

February 21, 2011 at 10:24 am#236708

Ed J

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 21 2011,11:03)

Quote (Ed J @ Feb. 21 2011,09:25)

And one of them(the ten leapers), when he saw that he was healed,
turned back, and with a loud voice glorified God, (Luke 17:15)
Was the leaper (as WJ may assume) calling Jesus: “God”?

Let's not jump overboard here, Ed.

Does the scripture say that the leper said to JESUS, “God, I glorify you”?

Saying, “Thank you God, for I am healed” is a far cry from Thomas saying “to HIM, my lord and my god”.

Let's not be like them, for they speak of unscriptural things.

mike

Hi Mike,

My explanation addresses both examples
with the same results. What about this verse…
2 Corinthians 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ,
reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their
trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the
word of reconciliation. (this verse fits the pattern too; right?)

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

February 21, 2011 at 10:33 am#236709

Ed J

Participant

Quote (Ed J @ Feb. 21 2011,20:24)

we can't just pretend that scriptures don't say what they clearly say to defend our beliefs.

Hi Mike,

Out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword,
that with it he should smite the nations. (Rev.19:15)
I believe “the sharp sword” in Rev.19:15 is “The spoken Word”!
Since it doesn't CLEARLY say it's “The spoken Word”, does that mean it's NOT?

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

February 21, 2011 at 3:24 pm#236729

Proclaimer

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 21 2011,03:25)

He was simply calling Jesus “my ruler”, which he is. Keith, did you know there are many who are called “god”, but only ONE “TRUE GOD”?

This may be true. But EDJ also has a point IMO.

This verse also has 2 definite articles when it only needed one to say “THE Lord and God of me”. But it actually says, “THE Lord of me and THE God of me”. The latter opens up the possibility of two being spoken of, whereas, the former much less so. Of course both examples can be saying the same thing, it is at least curios that the latter was used.

February 21, 2011 at 5:31 pm#236732

Kangaroo Jack Jr.

Participant

Mike said:

Quote

I want you to RETAIN that claim that YOU YOURSELF made, and apply that same reasoning to the fact that God is always called a “HE” or a “HIM”, and NEVER a “THEY” or a “THEM”.

God is both called “Us” and “Him” in Genesis 1:26.

February 21, 2011 at 5:34 pm#236733

Kangaroo Jack Jr.

Participant

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 20 2011,05:23)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 19 2011,12:54)

You know Keith,

I had already prepared a response to your post explaining the “US” and “OUR” of 1:26…………..and then it dawned on me – you are diverting from my point again. So I deleted what I had written in favor of making you stand and defend the reasoning YOU YOURSELF made against Ed's point.

YOU made a big point with Ed about how it says that Thomas said to HIM, not THEM………..

I want you to RETAIN that claim that YOU YOURSELF made, and apply that same reasoning to the fact that God is always called a “HE” or a “HIM”, and NEVER a “THEY” or a “THEM”.

I agree with YOU that Thomas did say his statement to JESUS alone, not to God AND Jesus. Why? Because it says “to HIM” and not “to THEM”.

So why can't YOU agree that God is a HIM and not a THEM when it says so 7000 times?

mike

Mike

Your question once again is loaded because it assumes that God never refers to himself in the plural just because 7000 times plus he refers to himself in the singular.

Let us (plural) make man in our (plural) image.

It is obvious humanity was made in the “Image of God” and not angels or any other creature and this is why man is unique and was set to have dominion over the creation.

Also, it is obvious that no creature other than YHVH created anything.

So then YHVH says…

So God created the man male and female created he (singular) them (Plural).

Do you see how God also refers to man as a them? Yet we know man is “One humanity” or a man and a woman as “One flesh”.

The idea of “Plural unity” is taught through out scriptures and in fact “Nothing in the Universe is singular” or can you name one thing that is “singular” and not a “Plural uinity” besides your obvious claim God is?

Amen Keith!

Man is a plural unity after God's image. There was never a time when God existed in isolation.

Jack

February 21, 2011 at 7:33 pm#236737

Ed J

Participant

Quote (t8 @ Feb. 22 2011,01:24)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 21 2011,03:25)

He was simply calling Jesus “my ruler”, which he is. Keith, did you know there are many who are called “god”, but only ONE “TRUE GOD”?

This may be true. But EDJ also has a point IMO.

Hi T8,

Thank you for considering the possibility!
You know that my explanation aligns with the
rest of the Scriptures, while the other has troubles.

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

February 21, 2011 at 8:36 pm#236738

Worshipping Jesus

Participant

Quote (Ed J @ Feb. 21 2011,13:33)

Quote (t8 @ Feb. 22 2011,01:24)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 21 2011,03:25)

He was simply calling Jesus “my ruler”, which he is. Keith, did you know there are many who are called “god”, but only ONE “TRUE GOD”?

This may be true. But EDJ also has a point IMO.

Hi T8,

Thank you for considering the possibility!
You know that my explanation aligns with the
rest of the Scriptures, while the other has troubles.

The trouble is with you and t8. Since you guys say that the 2 articles could mean 2 people then then you are saying that 1 article means 1 person.

But of course you or t8 will not be consistent with that belief because that would also mean without a doubt that Paul and Peter is calling Jesus God here…

while we wait for the blessed hope–the glorious appearing of “our GREAT GOD AND SAVOUR, Jesus Christ“, Tit 2:13

The above has the force of “one” article for “Great God and Savour”.

AT Robertson and the Net agree that the subject for “Great God and Savour” is Jesus Christ.

Here is another scripture with the force of the One article describing the one subject…

Simon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who through the righteousness of our “GOD AND SAVOUR Jesus Christ” have received a faith as precious as ours: 2Peter 1:1

Either way you guys lose because these scriptures call Jesus God!

February 21, 2011 at 10:19 pm#236742

Kangaroo Jack Jr.

Participant

WJ said:

Quote

The trouble is with you and t8. Since you guys say that the 2 articles could mean 2 people then then you are saying that 1 article means 1 person.

Exactly! This means that Titus 2:13 says that Jesus is God for it has ONE article.

“Our Great God and Savior Jesus Christ.”

Jack

February 21, 2011 at 10:21 pm#236743

Kangaroo Jack Jr.

Participant

Keith said:

Quote

Either way you guys lose because these scriptures call Jesus God!

Yeap!

Jack

February 22, 2011 at 12:44 am#236762

Ed J

Participant

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 22 2011,06:36)