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Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 08 2011,04:45)
That is simply wrong. “Only” means “Only”. Do you have more than “One Lord”? To you words do not mean anything it appears. You also said…
Keith, wasn't it YOU who posted the scripture about human MASTERS? Yet it is YOU who then wants to INSIST that “ONLY Master” should be taken literally. 
Were those human MASTERS also YHVH then, if we only have ONE? Do you see how you go to extremes to prove your point even when it often ends up defeating the trinity in the long run? Here, I'll show you an example:
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 08 2011,14:49) No Keith, it is YOU who has “lost the debate” by insisting “only true God” must be taken literally. Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 08 2011,04:45)
Can you see the ludicrousness of your statement? I'm not sure if “ludicrousness” is a word, but anyway, let's back this up a bit and get it all in context.1. You have been forever claiming that there is only ONE GOD, and therefore all other “elohim” and “theos” were “false gods”. You claimed this because you thought it gave you the edge by being able to ask, “So Mike, is Jesus a 'false god'?”
But since that time, I've taught you many things in the other thread, right? Haven't we both discovered the many other “elohim” in scripture that were neither “God Almighty” nor “false gods”? Yes, we have. And so “only true God” is an emphatic way of saying “God Almighty” or “God of gods” because we both KNOW there ARE other gods in scripture who AREN'T “false gods”, right? Like Deborah, angels, Moses, and Jesus.
2. And the reason you “lost the debate” is because you were INSISTING that “only true God” and “one God” were to be taken literally, as if there were no other gods in scripture at all. And I pointed out to you that if you wanted to take it so literally, then you must also take the rest of the scripture literally along with it. And since Jesus said our “only true God” is THE FATHER, and Paul said our “one God” is THE FATHER, and neither of them say “Son” or “Father/Son Combo”, then YOUR insistence that “only” and “one” be taken literally lost the debate for you. Because to take it literally, you must agree that THE FATHER is the “only true God” and the “one God”, right? And no matter how much wrangling you try, there is no way you can honestly fit “the Son” into those two scriptures.
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 08 2011,04:45)
So is Jesus your “Only” “One Lord” or “One Master” or not?It’s a yes or no answer.
In the realm of “everything considered”, NO! But within the constraints of what Paul was saying, YES!Paul was putting our leaders in a rank, God being the highest, as attested to by what he said in 1 Cor 11:3. The order of things for us is this:
The Father as our only GOD is #1. Jesus as our only Lord (under our God) is #2. Man (as opposed to woman) is #3.
Keith, it is really pathetic how far you and Jack will go to pretend you don't understand metaphoric and emphatic language in an attempt to keep some weak trinity “proof”.
Keith, is the Father your ONLY God? Not the Son. Not some Father/Son combo. But ONLY the Father. Is ONLY the Father ALONE your ONLY God?
It's a yes or no answer.
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 08 2011,04:45)
Once again I have shown you the literal Greek and how most translations translate Jude 1:4 but you reject it.
And once again I have taken the very Greek words YOU posted and showed you how they could be understood the way the KJV Bible translated them.Keith, can the Greek words of Jude 1:4 POSSIBLY be honestly translated as the KJV does it………….or is that translation a total IMPOSSIBILIY?
Be honest, Keith.
peace and love,
mikeQuote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 08 2011,04:25) Look Again t8. Jesus “sees” what the Father does and “He does it”.
Can you make that claim, that whatever the Father does you can do?
The last four of five dialogs I have had with you in these forums have demonstrated a pattern of misrepresentation or misunderstanding.I never made the claim that I only do what the Father does. What I said was Jesus only does what the Father does and says what the Father says. It is the Father that shows him.
That is what I am saying, it was pretty plain to see that WJ.
Jesus is not the originator of what he says and does. He does the Father's will only. When someone called him good once, he said, why call me good, only God is good.
But your confusing doctrine has to interpret his words incorrectly. You have to believe that Jesus was talking about himself because he said that only God is good. A reasonable person sees that he was talking about his Father who is our God and as Paul rightly put it. “For US, there is one God the Father”.
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 08 2011,04:25) Also thanks for quoting Johns commentary telling us that Jesus is claiming to be equal to the Father. Of course if he can do whatever he sees the Father do then that means he is equal.
Amen, and did you know that being equal also means that you are not that which you are equal to.e.g., 3 + 2 = 5 and 1 + 4 = 5
Both sums are equal but are not the same sum are they?If a game ends in a draw, then does that mean that each team or person is the same team/person?
No, it means that they both scored equally, but in identity they are not the same.To make the claim that equal makes you the same identity is plain wrong. No, equal is the same in quality, but not identity.
As I have said on a number of occasions, if you understood the difference between identity and quality, you wouldn't be arguing as you do. Because you do not understand it, you continue to teach a false doctrine that even you cannot fully explain.
Just in case you do not understand equality, I leave you with one more example that you should be able to grasp.
Equal rights for women and men does not mean that woman are men.
Todays exercise was brought to you by the letter E and the number 2.
Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ Feb. 08 2011,08:46) t8 said: Quote Is an idol greater than Michael the Archangel for example? Because idols are called theos, and Michael is called an angel. This you cannot deny, so why don't you argue this if you truly believe your own interpretation of my words. WJ replied:
Quote But that is why in the NT it translates it as “Angel” and not “God”
But can you not see that WJ original point is lost.He made the claim that I said that Satan was greater than Jesus because Satan is a god and Jesus isn't God. I pointed out correctly that Satan is an originator (of lies, world, murder etc) and Jesus only did what the Father did and said what the Father said and therefore only did God's will and not his own (like Satan) and therefore was not the originator. This is backed up by Jesus who said “no one is good except God”, after someone called him good master.
Obviously WJ's assumption of rank about Satan being a theos and Jesus not being the Theos was completely wrong wasn't it?
So the knock out punch really needs to be thrown now. Your one was premature. It knocked out nothing. It was all image and no substance.
Kapow. Thud.
Now for the victory march.
The Father is the God of all the Earth.
Satan is the God of this age.
Jesus is the son of God and only does the will of God. He is the perfect son.Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 08 2011,04:56) HA HA.
It is you that can't see it. If he has all authority and power then that means to us he sits in the active role as God for all things come to us from him. If he is not God to us then our relationship with him would be Idolatry for he stands between us and the Father.
I get the last laugh WJ.Jesus is at the right hand of God is he not?
He is not God himself, rather he is at his right hand side.Just as we who believe will be at the right hand of Jesus and yet we will not be Jesus. See that. Simple isn't it. Irrefutable simple truth.
Again, the whole identity and quality thing has you bamboozled.
As for the idolatry statement. There is a big difference between a dead idol and Jesus. Jesus is the mediator between us and God. He is the visible image of the invisible God. The invisible God is the Father. Your idol idea is not really a good one is it?
t8 said:
Quote The Father is the God of all the Earth.
Satan is the God of this age.
Jesus is the son of God and only does the will of God. He is the perfect son.Hey Folks,
WJ has clearly won the argument. t8 has said that the Father is the God of all the earth (capital “G”) and that satan is the God of this age (capital “G”). Yet Jesus is the son of God (small “s”) who only does the will of the Father.
Well, it sure looks to me like Jesus does His own will too.
Quote 27 All things have been delivered to Me by My Father, and no one knows the Son except the Father. Nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, and the one to whom THE SON WILLS to reveal Him. Matthew 11:27
and,
Quote 21 For as the Father raises the dead and gives life to them, even so the Son gives life to WHOM HE WILL. 22 For the Father judges no one, but has committed all judgment to the Son, 23 that all should honor the Son JUST AS they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him. John 5:21-23
If satan's godship is so eminent, then why is it that the Son does all the judging INCLUDING the “god (small “g”) of this age?
Maybe WJ and I should leave you alone t8. The more we declare the truth the further in darkness you get pushed and the hotter it will be for you in the lake of fire.
Roo
KJ, both WJ and yourself have again missed the point. Perhaps you are incapable of understanding the point, because the Trinity Doctrine blocks the understanding?
Jesus only does what the Father does. Satan does what he wants.
Jesus origin is the Father. Satan's origin is himself.
Satan is the god of this age.
Jesus is the son of God.Just because Satan is called a god (theos) in no way makes him greater than Jesus who is the son.
As I said before, idols are also called theos and are we to suppose that a hunk of wood is greater than Jesus because it is called theos?Get real both of you. I only repeat that which is found in scripture.
If you have a problem with that, then your problem is not with me.The problem lies in your lack of understanding with the way scripture uses 'theos' and 'elohim'.
t8 said:
Quote KJ, both WJ and yourself have again missed the point. Perhaps you are incapable of understanding the point, because the Trinity Doctrine blocks the understanding? Jesus only does what the Father does. Satan does what he wants.
You are allowed to laugh at scripture. Although you may be laughing out of embarrassment. But let me show you a better way. Let scripture teach you. Respect scripture and put it before your own understanding. Learn to love scripture.
The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.
Again, the devil took him to a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their splendor. “All this I will give you,” he said, “if you will bow down and worship me.”
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies.
YHWH is not the Father of lies. Satan is.
Jesus Father is God. Our Father is God.
All liars and murderers have Satan as their father. Satan is their God.If you continue to have a problem with this, then I suggest that you read these scriptures with an open mind. If you are already full of your own understanding, then truth will simply not penetrate your understanding when it is poured on you. Instead it will fall away from you.
Quote (t8 @ Feb. 08 2011,15:41) Jesus origin is the Father. Satan's origin is himself.
t8No satan was created by Jesus. 'nothing came into being without him“!
WJ
Quote (t8 @ Feb. 08 2011,16:25) All liars and murderers have Satan as their father. Satan is their God.
t8So satan gets to be a God and Jesus doesn't?
You never answered my honest question…
Tell us t8, If to you satan is the God of this world then who is Jesus the God of?
The Bible does call Jesus God too doesn't it?
WJ
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 09 2011,09:11) Tell us t8, If to you satan is the God of this world then who is Jesus the God of?
More word games, Keith?What does “God” mean to you in referrence to Satan? Does 2 Cor 4:4 mean that Satan is the CREATOR of this world………or the RULER of it?
If Satan can be called the RULER (ie: god) of this world, then why can't Jesus have it said to him: “My Lord and my RULER” (ie: god)?
Why is it that you can finally admit that God's own vice regents were called by the title “god” throughout scripture, but you go into overdrive when the vice regent mentioned as “god” happens to be Jesus?
You are okay with Moses being called god and not being THE GOD. You're okay with Deborah being called god and not being THE GOD. So why is it that when it comes to Jesus, you insist that being called god means he IS the God that he is also the Son of.
mike
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 09 2011,09:11) t8 So satan gets to be a God and Jesus doesn't?
You never answered my honest question…
Tell us t8, If to you satan is the God of this world then who is Jesus the God of?
The Bible does call Jesus God too doesn't it?
WJ
Scripture says that Jesus is the son of God and Satan is the theos of this age.Laugh all you like, but that does equate to mocking the one who inspired these scriptures. All mocking is done at your own risk. Heaven Net is not responsible for any judgement that may occur outside of our control.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 09 2011,10:26) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 09 2011,09:11) Tell us t8, If to you satan is the God of this world then who is Jesus the God of?
More word games, Keith?What does “God” mean to you in referrence to Satan? Does 2 Cor 4:4 mean that Satan is the CREATOR of this world………or the RULER of it?
If Satan can be called the RULER (ie: god) of this world, then why can't Jesus have it said to him: “My Lord and my RULER” (ie: god)?
Why is it that you can finally admit that God's own vice regents were called by the title “god” throughout scripture, but you go into overdrive when the vice regent mentioned as “god” happens to be Jesus?
You are okay with Moses being called god and not being THE GOD. You're okay with Deborah being called god and not being THE GOD. So why is it that when it comes to Jesus, you insist that being called god means he IS the God that he is also the Son of.
mike
I am afraid that as logical and clear as this is, it is likely to be unable to penetrate the mind of a brainwashed person who is taught to think otherwise.Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 09 2011,09:06) Quote (t8 @ Feb. 08 2011,15:41) Jesus origin is the Father. Satan's origin is himself.
t8No satan was created by Jesus. 'nothing came into being without him“!
WJ
Wrong.What God created was good. Satan was obviously named differently and was created good. But free will which enables true love is what makes a being decide to do what he wants rather than what God wants.
God allows any of us to rebel. He never created us in that state, rather through making choices outside of God's will, we go our OWN way rather than God's way.
This is why scripture has references about doing God's will as opposed to your own.
Back to the drawing board WJ.
Hi Mike
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 08 2011,18:26) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 09 2011,09:11) Tell us t8, If to you satan is the God of this world then who is Jesus the God of?
More word games, Keith?What does “God” mean to you in referrence to Satan? Does 2 Cor 4:4 mean that Satan is the CREATOR of this world………or the RULER of it?
No word games on my part but I will show you how they are on your part.Satan is the “god” not the “God” of this world. Why because people serve him and he has usurped authority over the unbelievers that do not come to the light. So yes he is a “ruler” because he is god over this age. But he is a false god and not God at all.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 08 2011,18:26) If Satan can be called the RULER (ie: god) of this world, then why can't Jesus have it said to him: “My Lord and my RULER” (ie: god)?
It is because of the context which we have been telling you all along. The context of Johns Gospel tells us that Jesus possessed all things including all authority and power in heaven and earth, and that neither John nor Jesus rebuked Thomas for calling Jesus his Lord and God with the definite article.Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 08 2011,18:26) Why is it that you can finally admit that God's own vice regents were called by the title “god” throughout scripture, but you go into overdrive when the vice regent mentioned as “god” happens to be Jesus?
It is because of context again Mike. Those vice regents (elohim) of God were either kings, rulers, judges that God did his works through or they were false gods (Idols for instance) that were worshipped or as in Moses case he was a god to the Pharaoh who worshipped many gods But none of them had all of the attributes or characteristics of God and actually did the works themselves. None of them were “The Savour” but were Savours by proxy.The Kingdom of God is Jesus Kingdom and he sits in the Throne of God as God doing the works of God, and who is also King of Kings and Lord of Lords having all authority and power and upholding all things by the word of his power.
Once again if the Father of a Kingdom turns over the Kingdom to his Son then the Son is equal to the Father isn’t he Mike?
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 08 2011,18:26) You are okay with Moses being called god and not being THE GOD. You're okay with Deborah being called god and not being THE GOD. So why is it that when it comes to Jesus, you insist that being called god means he IS the God that he is also the Son of.
You are switching up the words again and using the word God to “identify” the Father while excluding the term God in reference to Jesus.That is like saying that the human son is not human like the Father.
You have already answered my question…
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 05 2011,18:35) Jesus is the god, or “powerful ruler” of all in heaven right now, and of the believer's on earth. Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 08 2011,14:05) Jesus is one who has been called by the title “god”, so he is also “A god”. He has not specifically been called “THE god” of anything in particular, but knowing that “god” only means “ruler”, I can honestly say that he is “my god”. But if he is your god, then in what sense is he less God than the Father?
WJ
Quote (t8 @ Feb. 08 2011,18:47) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 09 2011,09:06) Quote (t8 @ Feb. 08 2011,15:41) Jesus origin is the Father. Satan's origin is himself.
t8No satan was created by Jesus. 'nothing came into being without him“!
WJ
Wrong.What God created was good.
Which means that since nothing came into being without Jesus and since the scriptures tell us “what he sees the Father do he does” then that means Jesus is also creator or the God that created the good. Because the Bible tells us that YHVH “alone” and “by himself” created all things.Quote (t8 @ Feb. 08 2011,18:47) Satan was obviously named differently and was created good. But free will which enables true love is what makes a being decide to do what he wants rather than what God wants.
But what you originally said was…(highlights mine)Quote (t8 @ Feb. 08 2011,15:41) Jesus origin is the Father. Satan's “origin” is himself.
So if satan was created by the Father and Jesus as Good then his “origin” would have been the Father and Jesus and not himself, right?Quote (t8 @ Feb. 08 2011,18:47) Back to the drawing board WJ.
I like your drawing board. I may use it myself. But I noticed it is blank.It looks like you need to get back to it.
WJ
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 10 2011,05:13) Which means that since nothing came into being without Jesus and since the scriptures tell us “what he sees the Father do he does” then that means Jesus is also creator or the God that created the good. Because the Bible tells us that YHVH “alone” and “by himself” created all things.
Too many assumptions.God created you through your mother and father. Is your mother your creator?
See now.
God is the creator. All things through Jesus.
Also, are we not to do all thing through Jesus or in his name?
So does that make us Jesus?Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 10 2011,05:03) But if he is your god, then in what sense is he less God than the Father?
First off he is not the originator and secondly, only one is God in identity, that is the Father. Qualitatively speaking the difference is that one comes from another. The world image is often used.
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