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Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 12 2009,07:12) G,
So you look at scripture to find a lesson God is trying to teach and once you think you have found it the rest is superfluous to your needs. Scripture is not sacred to you but a series messages hidden amongst rubbish?
Nick………..So in your opinion GOD has no reason for doing what He does, Nothing could be more ignorant then to say that. God is the greatest teacher of all, and yes i certainly do believe He is teaching all His children and showing them what He is doing. I could give you many scriptures to prove that, but what good would it do, you simply don't believe scriptures even though that are presented to you, so it would be just a waste of our time to. And scripture are not “SACRED” to you, seeing you don't care to understand them and what they really mean. Being a (PARROT) means nothing.
IMOpeace and love………………………gene
G,
You boast of understanding scripture then you dissect out the bits that suit your dogmas and cast the rest aside.
You make yourself greater than scripture, even becoming your own god.Nick………. Prove what you are saying instead of using your insults, Again personal Attacks , which only show your ignorance of what is posted , no one here is even remotely saying he or she is a a god and that includes me. Show me where i and making myself out to be greater then scriptures, Accusing of the brothers is what Satans or (accusers) do, stick to the subjects if you can, it would be greatly appreciated by all of us. IMO
peace and love…………………..gene
Quote (gollamudi @ June 12 2009,17:28) Quote (Not3in1 @ June 11 2009,17:42) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 11 2009,16:45) Hi Mandy By the way, didn’t you see how Jodi “spurned” and “patronized” Kathi?
Yet you make comment about what I said?
Why didn’t you speak to the mean Spirit that Jodi and Gene has shown towards those who disagree with them?
Blessings WJ
Hey Keith,Sorry bro, I didn't mean to single you out necessarily. I'm not here much anymore (I pop in and out). So, I don't follow every thread like I used to.
I read what you wrote and I was only trying to appeal to your maturity in Christ. To whom much is given, much is expected. And you have been given a lot more than me (I know that much!).
Anyway, let's try to encourage one another as the days grow shorter….you know how much you long for encouragement! It's difficult when you need it and no one's giving it out. Maybe Jodi, Gene and Adam just need some encouragement instead of correction? I don't know…that's all I was trying to say.
Love you always,
Mandy
May God bless you Sis,
For such encouraging words. I don't know why our brother WJ mentioning my name often. You might have noticed how I have kept myself away from confrontations these days. I always appreciate your way of dealing since the beginning in this forum. That is the spirit of Christ God bestowed on us which edifys the church.Thanks and love
Adam
Hey bro,Thanks for your kind words. It's easy to spot those who are defending the truth out of love for one another. It's also easy to spot those who are supposedly defending scripture, but are really just taking their ego's out for a walk. It can be very descouraging!! Stay strong! Avoid the petty arguments, if you can. Self-control is evident in those who are growing daily in the Lord. Personally, I have much to learn, but I recognize those Christians who have these qualities! YOU are one of these.
Much love to you,
MandyG,
Go to the words and actions of Jesus and you will learn about Satan and his evil spirits.
Do not add.Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 14 2009,21:22) G,
You boast of understanding scripture then you dissect out the bits that suit your dogmas and cast the rest aside.
You make yourself greater than scripture, even becoming your own god.
Shall we gather for the public stoning that follows…..Hi Not 3,
Unrepentant false teachers reliant on their own insights destroy the beauty of what Good has given us.
Will you support the Word of God?Bro Nick,
Please understand, everyone here believes they support the Word of God (with few exceptions).
But not everyone accepts your interpretation of the Word of God. Hard to believe, I know.
I've listened to quite a few of your own insights to scripture that you have shared as gospel. But in the end, they are your theories – we all have them. I haven't quite figured out why you believe you are so special in that regard….that only you are standing for scripture? Visions of grandeur, perhaps?
Pride is a handicap – it hinders our love for one another.
Love,
MandyQuote (Nick Hassan @ June 15 2009,18:49) Hi not 3,
You are above all?
Certainly not! But with all due respect, bro, I'm not going around accusing my brother's and sister's in Christ of being god!Is scripture not available for reproof as well? Or are you only able to dish that out, but then not take it yourself?
Hi not3,
Why should your interest just be in correcting others when the word of God is under attack by carnal men?Quote (Not3in1 @ June 15 2009,19:31) Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 15 2009,18:49) Hi not 3,
You are above all?
Certainly not! But with all due respect, bro, I'm not going around accusing my brother's and sister's in Christ of being god!Is scripture not available for reproof as well? Or are you only able to dish that out, but then not take it yourself?
Mandy…… exactly some can dish is out but, when it comes to taking it they just hand out tiles, to get there (OWN) way , love of truth is never their consideration , just care for their (perceived truths) are the only thing that matters. Truth is, it is becoming more and more evident He is not even worth responding to at all . Just a chatty Cathy parroting out His perceived dogmas unable to respond to subject matters posted so he goes on personal character assassinations, but when rebuked back hands out tiles.
IMO.peace and love to you and yours………………….gene
Quote (Jodi Lee @ June 13 2009,03:21) Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 11 2009,19:10) Hi Jodi,
Revelation 17:7 But the angel said to me, “Why did you marvel? I will tell you the mystery of the woman and of the beast that carries her, which has the seven heads and the ten horns. 8 The beast that you saw was, and is not, and will ascend out of the bottomless pit and go to perdition. The beast that you saw was, and is not, and will ascend out of the bottomless pit and go to perdition. And those who dwell on the earth will marvel, whose names are not written in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world, when they see the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.The time is the millenium.
Read Rev 20Satan is in prison.[Rev 20.2]
So he was and is not.He will ascend again out of this pit to stir up the nations of natural men he still owns.[Rev 20.3,7]
He will go to perdition. [Rev20.10]10 There are also seven kings. Five have fallen, one is, and the other has not yet come. And when he comes, he must continue a short time. 11 And the beast that was, and is not, is himself also the eighth, and is of the seven, and is going to perdition. 12 The ten horns which you saw are ten kings who have received no kingdom as yet, but they receive authority for one hour as kings with the beast. 13 These are of one mind, and they will give their power and authority to the beast.
So the kings are not the beast but the horns and the mountains that cling to this beast, Satan.
Nick you still have not shown any proof from scripture that the adversary ever represents a rebel super powerful spirit being.What does Jesus DEFINE satan as being?
A man having in mind the things of MEN, and he also said woe to the world because of the offenses, of which come FROM MAN!
What was Jesus example for the two masters of which we can only have one, God and mammon.
What does Paul refer to us being enslaved by?
Romans 6:6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin.
Our old man was crucified with Jesus, that the body of sin might be done away with, not some temptation from invisible beings would be done away with.
The adversary that RULES over all mankind, including KINGS is the body of sin with it’s passions and desires. The entire world exist under this enslavement. As Jesus says out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, there is no authority to twist the words of Jesus and say that out of the influence of invisible creatures the heart of man proceeds with evil thoughts. Paul tells us SPECIFICALLY WHO the INVENTORS of EVIL THINGS are.
Romans 1:28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting; 29 being filled with all unrighteousness, sexual immorality, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, evil-mindedness; they are whisperers, 30 backbiters, haters of God, violent, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, 31 undiscerning, untrustworthy, unloving, unforgiving, unmerciful; 32 who, knowing the righteous judgment of God, that those who practice such things are deserving of death, not only do the same but also approve of those who practice them.
Should we corrupt the simplicity of Jesus and Paul’s words? Out of the heart proceeds evil, not out of invisible beings inspiring our hearts, do we do evil.
Nick show me a scripture that says rebel spirits INVENT evil and then man chooses to follow that evil?
Because humans did not retain God in their knowledge God gave them over to a DEBASED MIND, which is a mind we see in the bible likened to animals…..animals who exist living solely on their natural instincts.
Evil does not exist because God ALLOWS invisible rebel spirits to go around influencing man to do evil.
Paul clearly tells us that our own debased minds FILL us with unrighteousness.
In the beginning of Revelation who is the devil? The devil is shown directly to be a human who is persecuting Christians.
There is no authority to create our own definition of adversary.
Kings serve mammon, GREED, and where does Jesus tells us greed comes from?
Mark 7:21 For from within, out of men's hearts, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, 22 greed, malice, deceit, lewdness, envy, slander, arrogance and folly. 23 All these evils come from inside and make a man 'unclean.'”
All scripture forms a circle of truth. Jesus says to be satan is to have in mind the things of men, he says woe to the world because of man’s offenses, he tells us precisely where those offenses come from. So when we see Kings being likened to dragons doing evil, it is scriptural truth to define that evil coming from within those Kings themselves.
God says that He is the one that determines the Nations, He brings about their RISE and fall. Those nations have evil because of man’s own heart, because of man’s own ability to invent evil ways.
In Revelation we see the symbolic use of beasts, including a dragon. We also see this in Daniel, and as well, in the OT we see several examples of man being likened or referred to as animals, or beasts.
Psalms 73:21 Thus my heart was grieved, And I was vexed in my mind. 22 I was so foolish and ignorant; I was like a beast before You.
Foolishness comes not from some conscience decision to follow the whispers of some rebel spirit, but it comes from ignorance, like that of an animal. We are all born ignorant, and we need God’s Spirit to bring us into truth and righteousness.
Daniel 7:17 'Those great beasts, which are four, are four kings which arise out of the earth.
The Kings arise out of the earth, should we take that literally, like some like to take the dragon’s fall from heaven, literally?
23 “Thus he said: 'The fourth beast shall be A fourth kingdom on earth, Which shall be different from all other kingdoms, And shall devour the whole earth, Trample it and break it in pieces. 24 The ten horns are ten kings Who shall arise from this kingdom. And another shall rise after them; He shall be different from the first ones, And shall subdue three kings. 25 He shall speak pompous words against the Most High, Shall persecute the saints of the Most High, And shall intend to change times and law. Then the saints shall be given into his hand For a time and times and half a time. 26 'But the court shall be seated, And they shall take away his dominion, To consume and destroy it forever. 27 Then the kingdom and dominion, And the greatness of the kingdoms under the whole heaven, Shall be given to the people, the saints of the Most High. His kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, And all dominions shall serve and obey Him.'
Should we take the RISE as being literal? Maybe I should make up a story that says the kings are really fallen angels in disguise so that is why they are able to rise, because they have the power to fly. =)
2Pe 2:12 But these, like natural brute beasts made to be caught and destroyed, speak evil of the things they do not understand, and will utterly perish in their own corruption,
Jude 1:10 But these speak evil of whatever they do not know; and whatever they know naturally, like brute beasts, in thes
e things they corrupt themselves.Humans speak evil not because they are listening to rebel whispering spirits, but because they are ignorant and without God all they have to rely on for understanding is their own nature.
Psalm 49:20 A man who is in honor, yet does not understand, Is like the beasts that perish.
Jeremiah 34:1 The word which came to Jeremiah from the Lord, when Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon and all his army, all the kingdoms of the earth under his dominion, and all the people, fought against Jerusalem and all its cities, saying,
The dominion of evil is always shown to be men.
Jeremiah 51:24 “And I will repay Babylon And all the inhabitants of Chaldea For all the evil they have done In Zion in your sight,” says the Lord. 25 “Behold, I am against you, O destroying mountain, Who destroys all the earth,” says the Lord. “And I will stretch out My hand against you, Roll you down from the rocks, And make you a burnt mountain. 26 They shall not take from you a stone for a corner Nor a stone for a foundation, But you shall be desolate forever,” says the Lord. 27 Set up a banner in the land, Blow the trumpet among the nations! Prepare the nations against her, Call the kingdoms together against her: Ararat, Minni, and Ashkenaz. Appoint a general against her; Cause the horses to come up like the bristling locusts. 28 Prepare against her the nations, With the kings of the Medes, Its governors and all its rulers, All the land of his dominion. 29 And the land will tremble and sorrow; For every purpose of the Lord shall be performed against Babylon, To make the land of Babylon a desolation without inhabitant. 30 The mighty men of Babylon have ceased fighting, They have remained in their strongholds; Their might has failed, They became like women; They have burned her dwelling places, The bars of her gate are broken. 31 One runner will run to meet another, And one messenger to meet another, To show the king of Babylon that his city is taken on all sides; 32 The passages are blocked, The reeds they have burned with fire, And the men of war are terrified. 33 For thus says the Lord of hosts, the God of Israel: “The daughter of Babylon is like a threshing floor When it is time to thresh her; Yet a little while And the time of her harvest will come.” 34 “Nebuchadnezzar the king of Babylon Has devoured me, he has crushed me; He has made me an empty vessel, He has swallowed me up like a monster; He has filled his stomach with my delicacies, He has spit me out.
Da 4:22 it is you, O king, who have grown and become strong; for your greatness has grown and reaches to the heavens, and your dominion to the end of the earth.
The KING reaches the heavens, and it is his DOMINION of darkness, that exists.
Da 7:12 As for the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away, yet their lives were prolonged for a season and a time.
If someone who has dominion is said to have grown in greatness that reaches the heavens, then at some point when that dominion is taken away, it then could rightly be said that they FELL FROM HEAVEN!
Da 11:3 Then a mighty king shall arise, who shall rule with great dominion, and do according to his will.
The mighty KING will ARISE and rule with great DOMINION, and do according to HIS WILL!
Notice the king is following his will, not the influences of some spirit beings will.
Nick I have heard you speak of the dominion of darkness. Daniel shows that the dominion of darkness comes from the rule of human beings, KINGS.
Da 7:26 'But the court shall be seated, And they shall take away his dominion, To consume and destroy it forever.
Who’s dominion Nick? Who is the “his” referring to in Daniel 7:26?
There is nothing in these scriptures that speak of invisible manipulating rebel spirits.
Daniel 11:36 “Then the king shall do according to his own will: he shall exalt and magnify himself above every god, shall speak blasphemies against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the wrath has been accomplished; for what has been determined shall be done. 37 He shall regard neither the God of his fathers nor the desire of women, nor regard any god; for he shall exalt himself above them all. 38 But in their place he shall honor a god of fortresses; and a god which his fathers did not know he shall honor with gold and silver, with precious stones and pleasant things. 39 Thus he shall act against the strongest fortresses with a foreign god, which he shall acknowledge, and advance its glory; and he shall cause them to rule over many, and divide the land for gain.
Habakkuk 2:9 “Woe to him who covets evil gain for his house, That he may set his nest on high, That he may be delivered from the power of disaster! 10 You give shameful counsel to your house, Cutting off many peoples, And sin against your soul. 11 For the stone will cry out from the wall, And the beam from the timbers will answer it. 12 “Woe to him who builds a town with bloodshed, Who establishes a city by iniquity!
Kings and people follow their flesh for their own gain. Jesus defines satan as having in mind the things of men. Kings do not follow invisible rebel spirits. Jesus says that from man's own heart comes greed. Jesus said that man cannot serve TWO MASTERS, that man cannot serve God and mammon.
Jude 1:15 to execute judgment on all, to convict all who are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have committed in an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him.” 16 These are grumblers, complainers, walking according to their own lusts; and they mouth great swelling words, flattering people to gain advantage.
Hey Nick,You said, “G,
Go to the words and actions of Jesus and you will learn about Satan and his evil spirits.
Do not add.”Seems like you need to take your own advice.
I am still waiting for a response from the above post.
I wouldn't mind if others, Kathi, Irene, WJ responded also.
The dragon, the old serpent, the adversary and devil represent the mind of man without God. Scripture never says that men are under the influence of supernatural rebel spirits.
Man without God, out of his own heart is the INVENTOR of EVIL.
Jodi I gave you a whole list of Scriptures where it explained about Satan and His Demons. Wait, I can't understand that you want to ignore what it says about Satan in Rev. how he is put away and will be loosed to test all that never known evil. Jesus only taught the truth in the Millennium. It says that a Multitude will go with Satan into the Lake of Fire.
In Math. 4:10 Jesus Himself calls to Satan to get behind Him.
In Mark 3:23 He tells Peter who listened to Satan, to get behind Him.
In Luke `19:18 Jesus said:” I saw Satan fall like Lightning from Heaven.”
Then He tells the seventy what to do if Satan approached them. In Jesus name he has to leave.
I am sorry that you can't see that Satan is real. All other Scripture that you give in your post is not about Satan, most is prophecy about Kings. Even though Satan also was called the King of this world. What do you think who makes you Sin, not God. Sometimes we sin that we are not even aware of, because we let Satan in to influence us. Satan is the author of Sin. The serpent deceived Eve and through Eve Adam sinned. And all of us are under that curse.
Peace and Love IreneQuote (Nick Hassan @ June 15 2009,22:33) Hi not3,
Why should your interest just be in correcting others when the word of God is under attack by carnal men?
Hi Nick,How often do you “correct” others in the name of defending scripture? I've been here long enough now to call a spade a spade. Your subtle abuse of other's should have earned you many tiles by now!
As for my interests, well, we are not all called to be teacher's (like you) Nick. Perhaps other's would call my calling you out as a spiritual gift?
You don't fool me, mister. You're not unpopular because you are one of the few defending scripture…..you're unpopular because of your lack of love.
But I still love ya!
Mandy
1 Corinthians 13:1
[ Love ] If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal.Quote (Cindy @ June 16 2009,04:25) Jodi I gave you a whole list of Scriptures where it explained about Satan and His Demons. Wait, I can't understand that you want to ignore what it says about Satan in Rev. how he is put away and will be loosed to test all that never known evil. Jesus only taught the truth in the Millennium. It says that a Multitude will go with Satan into the Lake of Fire.
In Math. 4:10 Jesus Himself calls to Satan to get behind Him.
In Mark 3:23 He tells Peter who listened to Satan, to get behind Him.
In Luke `19:18 Jesus said:” I saw Satan fall like Lightning from Heaven.”
Then He tells the seventy what to do if Satan approached them. In Jesus name he has to leave.
I am sorry that you can't see that Satan is real. All other Scripture that you give in your post is not about Satan, most is prophecy about Kings. Even though Satan also was called the King of this world. What do you think who makes you Sin, not God. Sometimes we sin that we are not even aware of, because we let Satan in to influence us. Satan is the author of Sin. The serpent deceived Eve and through Eve Adam sinned. And all of us are under that curse.
Peace and Love Irene
Irene for the umpteenth time, I DON'T DENY SATAN EXISTS.It seems obvious to me that you have not even bothered to read my posts. That's a little unfair, don't you think? You telling me I am wrong, when you haven't even bothered to read my understanding?
If you had read my posts you would see that I don't DENY the adversary, what I deny is your definition.
You say he is a fallen angel, I have asked you to show me a single scripture that has that word in it.
You and Georg have pointed out that the word trinity does not exist in the bible, well NEITHER DOES fallen angel.
I have asked you to show me where in scripture you can find your definition of Satan.
My definition follows what Jesus teaches, which when he called the MAN Peter, satan, he specifically gave us the identity of the adversary, ANY man who is under the influence of the mind of man is satan.
When a man is righteous, it is because he is exemplifying the mind of God, when a man is evil, he is exemplifying the mind of man.
Irene, scripture speaks DIRECTLY OF MAN falling from heaven. The dragon is not said to be a fallen angel but specifically KINGS. Jesus says that man cannot have two masters, God and mammon. Jesus does not say man cannot have two masters God and fallen angels.
Irene what is mammon? It is GREED, where does Jesus say greed comes from? Jesus says it comes from within the heart of man, and that nothing form outside defiles a man but that sin comes from within man's OWN heart. Paul tells us that MAN INVENTS evil, and that God gave man over to his OWN debased mind, letting him fill himself with all matter of unrighteousness. We are told many times over in the bible that sin comes out of man through man himself. Jesus defines the adversary directly as having the mind of man.
So how exactly is it that I am in error by sticking to the words of Jesus in defining my definition of the adversary?
Man cannot serve two masters he cannot serve his own heart following after his OWN desires, and follow God.
The dragon is said to be Kings, in the OT we are told that the Kings rise up to the heavens, that they follow greed, that they follow their own wills, then we see God cast them down to earth.
During the thousand year reign, there will be no man following after his own will, NO MAN will have the mind of man, they will all be exemplifying the mind of God as Jesus did when he came and destroyed the enmity that existed between God and man and that enmity was not fallen angels, but
Ro 8:7Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be.
Eph 2:16 and that He might reconcile them both to God in one body through the cross, thereby putting to death the enmity.
Eph 2:2 in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, 3 among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.
Paul speaks of air in other scriptures using it to symbolize emptiness or worthlessness. The prince of worthlessness is the mind of man as Ephesians GOES ON to identify that spirit for us, it is not a spirit of invisible creatures that can cause us to sin without us even knowing it, otherwise ALL men would not be at fault for sin. Irene listen to what you are saying and what it implies. IMO it completely futile.
See it says we all conducted ourselves in the lusts of the flesh, fulfilling the desires of flesh and of the mind. It does not say we conducted ourselves to the influence or manipulation of rebel spirits. How well does that fit with what Jesus DEFINES the adversary as? Rather perfectly I'd say.
Irene I am using clear cut scripture to define my understanding of the adversary, you define the adversary according to a word that does not even exist in the bible.
I really wish you would spend some time reading scripture for what it says, under the definitions it gives, and not under your doctrine. You came out of false teachings before, I really hope you'd do it again.
Peace and blessings to you and Georg, Jodi
Hi Jodi,
You say
“The dragon, the old serpent, the adversary and devil represent the mind of man without God.”So you say.
But opinion carries little weight in understanding the words of God.Hi Not 3,
Love drags deceived men from the fire.
It is useless to warm the dying with kind words when life is still accessible.Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 16 2009,07:15) Hi Not 3,
Love drags deceived men from the fire.
It is useless to warm the dying with kind words when life is still accessible.
Shaking head…..Keep believing what you will, bro.
Love covers a multitude of sins.
MandyQuote (Nick Hassan @ June 16 2009,07:12) Hi Jodi,
You say
“The dragon, the old serpent, the adversary and devil represent the mind of man without God.”So you say.
But opinion carries little weight in understanding the words of God.
Hi Nick,My opinion is formed directly from what the scriptures say.
Mr 8:33 But when He had turned around and looked at His disciples, He rebuked Peter, saying, “Get behind Me, Satan! For you are not mindful of the things of God, but the things of men.”
Ro 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be.
Romans 1:28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting; 29 being filled with all unrighteousness, sexual immorality, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, evil-mindedness; they are whisperers, 30 backbiters, haters of God, violent, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, 31 undiscerning, untrustworthy, unloving, unforgiving, unmerciful;
AND…………….
1 Corinthians 2:11 For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God. 12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God. 13 These things we also speak, not in words which man's wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. 15 But he who is spiritual judges all things, yet he himself is rightly judged by no one. 16 For “who has known the mind of the Lord that he may instruct Him?” But we have the mind of Christ.
Mt 18:7 Woe to the world because of offenses! For offenses must come, but woe to that man by whom the offense comes!
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