Jude 1:9

[NickHassan]

Hi 94,
1 Cor 10 shows us that the passage through the Red Sea is a type of entry into the Body of Christ by water.

The waiting place of faith for them is the bosom of Abraham

[Jodi Lee]

Quote (Lightenup @ June 09 2009,07:17)

Hi Jodi, I know that there is a lot of thought behind your post and I appreciate your efforts.  I do agree that at times we are our own worst enemies as we struggle against our fleshly desires and then cave into them.  I would think that in regards to Jesus in the wilderness, I would credit it to Him that He overcame the carnal nature long before 40 days were up.  I have trouble skipping even one missed meal. So by day 40 I think that Christ was passing with flying colors as He demonstrated self control towards His flesh. I see the whole story differently than you Jodi.  I do believe that there are dark evil forces in the world and their leader is a fallen angel now named Satan.  He is very shrewd and in his cunning ways attacks us when we are at our weakest.  That is why he approached Jesus after 40 days of fasting.  The fact that Jesus, when He was tempted, did not give into temptation even when He was very weak is magnificent to demonstrate how to over come evil in any form whether it be from our natural fleshly desires tempting us or the evil forces of darkness trying to attack us. Within the context of Jesus in the wilderness we are not told anywhere in the passage that the “devil” or “satan” are the carnal nature of Jesus.  There may be passages elsewhere that could equate our carnal natures as our adversaries but I do not see it in this passage.  I take this passage at face value and believe that God's word clearly shows us this to be possible.  See this passage: Eph 6:10-12 10 Finally, be strong in the Lord and in the strength of His might. 11 Put on the full armor of God, so that you will be able to stand firm against the schemes of the devil. 12 For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the powers, against the world forces of this darkness, against the spiritual forces of wickedness in the heavenly places. NASU God has given us our weapons to put on and use for our benefit in this battle: Eph 6:13-20 13 Therefore, take up the full armor of God, so that you will be able to resist in the evil day, and having done everything, to stand firm. 14 Stand firm therefore, HAVING GIRDED YOUR LOINS WITH TRUTH, and HAVING PUT ON THE BREASTPLATE OF RIGHTEOUSNESS, 15 and having shod YOUR FEET WITH THE PREPARATION OF THE GOSPEL OF PEACE; 16 in addition to all, taking up the shield of faith with which you will be able to extinguish all the flaming arrows of the evil one. 17 And take THE HELMET OF SALVATION, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God. 18 With all prayer and petition pray at all times in the Spirit, and with this in view, be on the alert with all perseverance and petition for all the saints, 19 and pray on my behalf, that utterance may be given to me in the opening of my mouth, to make known with boldness the mystery of the gospel, 20 for which I am an ambassador in chains; that in proclaiming it I may speak boldly, as I ought to speak. NASU So, Jodi, we are on different sides of the fence here.  Thanks for your time.  My hope is for our unity in truth…press on! God bless, Kathi

Hi Kathi,

You say we are not told that the devil or satan is the carnal nature of Jesus within the story of Jesus in the wilderness. You are correct. We also don't see that the devil or satan is a fallen angel within the story of Jesus in the wilderness either!

What I do have that brings me to my conclusion, are scriptures that tell us that our adversary is the mind of man.  What I do have, are scriptures that tell me that the mind of man follows the flesh. What I do have are scriptures that tell me the flesh follows after it's nature of which can contain evil desires, passions and lusts.  What I do have is Jesus telling us that nothing from outside of a man can defile him, that evil comes from the heart and it is man who invents evil ways, and that men are responsible for the offenses that go out into the world. Thus making the rulers of darkness none other then men.  What I do have, is Jesus calling a man, known as Peter, satan, properly translated as . What I have is Jesus then defining Peter as being an adversary because he had in mind the things of men.  What I do have from scripture, once again, is it saying that to have in mind the things of men is to have in mind the flesh with it's desires and passions. What I do have is Jesus saying that you cannot serve two masters, God and mammon.  

What we DON”T have in the bible are the two words you believe exist that are a fundamental part of your Christian faith. The word Fallen Angel, does not exist in the bible, you cannot find it.  The only falls that exist in the bible are of human beings, mostly Kings who rise in power, usually building tall structures that represent their position in heaven…for example the Kings of Babylon and  Ziggurats.  Their position, arrogance and even sometimes their presence in a high structure, makes them be referred to as being in heaven. God however tells us that He cuts them down and casts them down.

Neither Jesus or Paul tell a story about fallen angels, or mention anything about invisible powerful spirits.  IMO you read a scripture and define Satan or Devil from a base outside of scripture.   You cannot take a story that is told to be directly about a king, and add that it also represents a fallen angel,…that is not creating truth but distortion. What we can do with the scriptures is apply scripture together.  When we see kings being called slanderers or adversaries, we know why they are being called such. We are told that all matters of wickedness come from the desires of the flesh. Those desires working in one powerful individual can create a host of dark forces.  

Man’ s spirit without God, becomes a wicked spirit, do to the weakness of the flesh. Kathi, I make the guess that often when you see the word spirit you automatically assume it’s referring to something supernatural . What scriptural base do you have for that? What base do you have for calling the adversary a fallen angel? And don’t try and use Revelation 12, the dragon is never said to be a fallen angel, the dragon is said to represent kings and those kings all had messengers, human beings who carried out their kings orders, doing evil deeds fulfilling sinful desires of their flesh, being adversaries and slanderers and thus being a host of wicked spirits bringing forth darkness.  

Please if you haven't already, view the thread on Ephesians 6. I have spoken several times about how the word satan means adversary. We see it be directly used for humans and loyal angels. When I see a scripture using the word adversary or slanderer, I am going to apply not only context within that particular scripture, but I am as well going to use the definitions supplied in the bible to define it. I feel it is much more justifiable and doctrinally sound to do so. What you and Irene follow IMO is a practice of taking what is there and using it to create another story…such as the jealousy of one great angel and him being cast out of heaven by God. You take that non scriptural story and run with it.

I have asked several times for someone to come forth and show me where in the bible that the adversary or the slanderer is directly referred to as being a fallen angel with powers like God.

Kathi, do you suppose you could show me the scriptures you believe give you the right to define adversary as fallen angel. I'd really appreciate that. Can you show me where the word for adversary all the sudden became an individuals proper name? Show me where scripture says the world is ruled by fallen angels. Show me where scrip
ture says that fallen angel are the forces of darkness we must face.

What Jesus accomplished in the wilderness was incredible and it would honestly mean diddly squat to me if Jesus were tempted by some fallen angel. When the adversary represents his carnal nature, I am strengthened and inspired by that.  I know of no fallen angel EVER tempting me, all I know is my own flesh and other human beings trying to tempt me. So the way that you look at it IMO for me personally it is completely futile, serving no purpose.  Jesus conquered something I cannot relate to whatsoever, the temptation of a fallen angel.

Looking forward to hearing from you, thanks for you post and blessings to you, Jodi

[NickHassan]

Hi Jodi,
So man becomes a wicked spirit??
All by himself?

[NickHassan]

Hi Jodi,
Why are you obsessed with fallen angels?
Scripture never calls Satan that in any clear way.
Is Revelation to be put aside in defense of your theories?

[Jodi Lee]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 09 2009,20:31)

Hi Jodi, Why are you obsessed with fallen angels? Scripture never calls Satan that in any clear way. Is Revelation to be put aside in defense of your theories?

Hi Nick to say I am obsessed with fallen angels is slander. Your being a devil once again.

May I suggest you should slow down a bit and think before you post and consider context.

I know some don't use fallen angel as to describe the spirit being they believe is represented as the adversary, but Kathi DOES, and she DID in reference to her post to me. When I posted back to her I used HER understanding to make my point.

For you to turn around and accuse me of being obsessed with fallen angels is absurd.

[GeneBalthrop]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 09 2009,20:25)

Hi Jodi, So man becomes a wicked spirit?? All by himself?

Nick……….Men become wicked like John said, “All that is in the world the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eye, and the Pride of life. That is how men become wicked, they learn it from the world, it is learned behaviors. Nothing to do with any so-call SATAN (being) Jodi is right in what She has said.

Jesus' battle in the wilderness was with his own carnal nature and he with the Spirit of GOD mastered it completely. And we with GOD'S Spirit can also, And that should encourage us all as Jodi said. IMO

peace and love…………………..gene

[Cindy]

Jodi and Gene! In Rev. it does say that Satan fell from Heaven like lightning. I think Satan is very happy that you do not believe He exist. When Jesus said to Peter get behind me, that just states that Peter was listening to Satan and He was in Him at that time. Just like the Holy Spirit of God is in us, we can let Satan in. That is the way I understand it.
When Jesus was tempted by Satan in the wilderness, what did He say? Get behind me, Satan…….
So Jesus knew who He was and so do Kathi and I. He is very cunning indeed.
Rev. 12:9 So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world, he was cast to the earth, and his angels with him.
What I can't understand that you both denying this Scripture. I am sure that others have told you about this.
Peace and Love Irene

[Jodi Lee]

Quote (Cindy @ June 10 2009,04:25)

Jodi and Gene! In Rev. it does say that Satan fell from Heaven like lightning. I think Satan is very happy that you do not believe He exist. When Jesus said to Peter get behind me, that just states that Peter was listening to Satan and He was in Him at that time.  Just like the Holy Spirit of God is in us, we can let Satan in. That is the way I understand it. When Jesus was tempted by Satan in the wilderness, what did He say?  Get behind me, Satan……. So Jesus knew who He was and so do Kathi and I. He is very cunning indeed. Rev. 12:9 So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world, he was cast to the earth, and his angels with him. What I can't understand that you both denying this Scripture. I am sure that others have told you about this. Peace and Love Irene

Hi Irene,

The dragon that was said to be cast to earth is said to be KINGS, not spirit beings. The Old Testament shows God casting to earth other kings as well. Remember Irene Revelation is symbolic.  As well, Angel means messenger, it does not solely represent supernatural spirits in the bible. The dragon is said to be Kings, therefore their messengers would more then likely represent the people who carry out the kings wicked plans.

Irene Satan or adversary is never defined as a fallen angel. Satan however is defined as a man who has in mind the things of men. Jesus told that 'mind' to get behind him. The mind of man is futile because it is weak through the flesh for our flesh tells us we must serve it. We must follow not the mind of man, but the mind of God. Jesus was tempted in all manner as any other man, his flesh was weakened through starvation in the wilderness and the mind of man came to him, and he had to rebuke that mind.

Like I told Kathy your understanding bears no fruit to me, for I cannot relate to the temptation of a fallen angel, I have NEVER had one tempt me. If what Jesus experienced in the wilderness was him denying the influence of the mind of man, I can greatly relate to that and feel inspired by what Jesus accomplished.

I think we should establish that no one in this particular case is denying scripture, people are just defining one word differently. I choose to stick and define the adversary under the bibles definition. IMO Irene you define adversary strictly according to a doctrine. You choose to define the adversary from a story not in the bible, but rather one created outside the bible from speculation and imagination.

The bible does not show that the Hebrew word for adversary ever became the proper name of a rebel angel. The King of Babylon was called the day star after the planet Venus, which in Latin meant Lucifer. There is no spirit being in the bible with the name Lucifer, just a king being referred to as a planet, and that planet God cast to earth, meaning God brought the king down from his position of power and authority.  

You cannot add a story to the scriptures and call that truth Irene.  

When I define adversary in the New Testament as representing a human who has in mind the things of men. I am doing so according to the scriptures, so how can that be in error?

Blessings and peace to you,    Jodi

[NickHassan]

Hi JOdi,
Where is Satan, the devil, the serpent, the dragon cast to earth with one third of the angels, said to be a king in Revelation?

[Lightenup]

Hi Jodi,
I believe there are supernatural beings that are led by Satan. I also believe that man's “innerman” is the spirit of man and can be corrupt and influenced with lies or renewed to be filled with truth.  I believe it is better for us to fix our minds on the light and not the darkness:

Phil 4:8-9
8 Finally, brethren, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is of good repute, if there is any excellence and if anything worthy of praise, dwell on these things.
9 The things you have learned and received and heard and seen in me, practice these things, and the God of peace will be with you.
NASU

So, at this time debating with you on whether satan is a fallen angel or not would just cause me to spend hours focusing on the kingdom of darkness.  I have read enough stories from the Bible and elsewhere and know people who said they had experienced the paranormal that I will certainly not think that it was all in their head.  Also, I think that the carnal corrupted nature of a man can not come out of him and settle into a herd of swine causing something so alarming that they drowned themselves.  I believe it was evil supernatural spirits.  

I wish you well though,
Kathi

[Jodi Lee]

Quote (Lightenup @ June 10 2009,10:27)

Hi Jodi, I believe there are supernatural beings that are led by Satan. I also believe that man's “innerman” is the spirit of man and can be corrupt and influenced with lies or renewed to be filled with truth.  I believe it is better for us to fix our minds on the light and not the darkness: Phil 4:8-9 8 Finally, brethren, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is of good repute, if there is any excellence and if anything worthy of praise, dwell on these things. 9 The things you have learned and received and heard and seen in me, practice these things, and the God of peace will be with you. NASU So, at this time debating with you on whether satan is a fallen angel or not would just cause me to spend hours focusing on the kingdom of darkness.  I have read enough stories from the Bible and elsewhere and know people who said they had experienced the paranormal that I will certainly not think that it was all in their head.  Also, I think that the carnal corrupted nature of a man can not come out of him and settle into a herd of swine causing something so alarming that they dround themselves.  I believe it was evil supernatural spirits.   I wish you well though, Kathi

When you KNOW something from the bible it really shouldn't take too long to find the scriptures to show your proof….a couple of hours? I'm asking for a few scriptures. Well you speak loud and clear Kathi by not producing any.

How do I put this? Ummm…is your faith so fragile you cannot discuss scripture of which speaks of the adversary? You had no PROBLEM discussing it before…at least not until you were asked to prove your position.

Are you so fearful of fallen angels that you would rather not read or post the scriptures that talk about the adversary or slanderer?

1Jo 3:8 He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil.

Oh NO….there I go focusing on the devil again.

Because I believe that the adversary has been grossly misdefined, does that mean I like the darkness, or I enjoy the darkness? Nick has said that I am obsessed. The ONLY reason why I am obsessed is because I feel a strong conviction that the mainstream Christian doctrine is utterly false…and if Jesus destroyed the works of the devil then you'd think we should be able to spend some time discussing who that devil was……but oh no, some here can't dare, because they wouldn't want to focus on the kingdom of darkness……I mean Kathi really, what kind of excuse is that?

Kathi the LIGHT is TRUTH, so we can discuss the adversary without having to dwell on darkness. To me that is just a STRANGE thing to say on your behalf. IMO to be honest it's just a disguise to your inept ability to actually prove your belief with scripture.

Kathi, you said, “Also, I think that the carnal corrupted nature of a man can not come out of him and settle into a herd of swine causing something so alarming that they dround themselves.  I believe it was evil supernatural spirits.

I have explained the swine before and what you think I define it as is false. Demons in the NT, at least the ones that are real, and not the ones that are false, are evil spirits from God. The man was suffering from a disease, which is a power or curse that only God ALONE can bring onto a man through supernatural means. The delusion in the man is what spoke to Jesus. The pigs killed themselves because once Jesus transferred the unclean spirit to them they went mentally crazy, and ran themselves off a cliff. Why would rebel spirits hang around in a body and wait for Jesus and then OBEY Jesus? Why wouldn't they just leave? The reason is because Jesus was healing the man from a disease. God brings madness, blindness, muteness, dumbness. He ALONE does those things. That is where the false demons come in. The OT speaks of false gods and demons. God says that these do not have any powers, they cannot walk, talk, do good or bad. The OT says that ONLY YHWH has the power to bring calamity and darkness, disease and death. When you create a being such as a fallen angel and give that fallen angel power to create calamity or cursing…you have created a false god and false demons. The OT tells us that only God is to fear because it is only His powers that exist.

Jesus called the Pharisees VIPERS, not fallen angels, but VIPERS, who are creatures of nature, and they have a forked tongue which man has used to represents deceit. Jesus called a man an adversary for having in mind the things of men.

If we look back in history we will find so many superstitious beliefs, many which are still present today, others however have been crushed through what man calls science, but is really God's revelation to man. When we cannot understand something we define it as paranormal, and we attach invisible monsters to it. My belief is that there is a scientific explanation to everything, and God reveals it according to His will.

Until then, what Christians must do is stay firm in scripture and not give head to false ideas. God says that He ALONE holds the powers of calamity, cursing and darkness. When we attach these things to other beings we create false gods.

Kathi I don't mean to be harsh, if it seems that way, it's just frustrating to me when people cannot back up what they say with scripture, no matter what the topic is.

[NickHassan]

Hi Jodi,
Does Jesus need your ministry to correct his words?

[Lightenup]

Jodi,

You wrote this:

Quote

IMO to be honest it's just a disguise to your inept ability to actually prove your belief with scripture.

Does that approach really work for you?? I have better things to do with my time. Maybe another time with a better approach…as the Holy Spirit leads.

Kathi

[Cindy]

Jodi! All you really have to do is go to your Concordance and look Satan up. There are several Scriptures that talk about Satan.
He is called Satan the Devil, the Serpent.
In Gen. 3:4 It is the Serpent that deceived Eve.
Let me just list some other Scriptures for you. You have to prove to yourself if Kathi and others including me, if we are right.
This Scriptures are from my Concordance in the James King version of the Bible.
1 Ch. 21:1
Job 1:6
Math. 4:10, 16:23
Mark 3:23
Luke 10:18
Acts 22:31
1 Cor. 5:5
2 Cor. 11:14
2 These. 2:9
Rev. 2:9, 20:7
Please look them up, He, Satan , But in Rev. it tells us that He will be put away for the Millenium. But for a little while He will be loosed again to test those in that time. And many will go with Satan in to the Lake of Fire, along with Anti-Christ.
I truly wish that you would be right, because to overcome nature to me, would be easier, then having to be tested by Satan. Why, cause He is a cunning fallen Angel, along with his demons, sometimes makes it a mess.
Just look at some Cities here in the U.S.A. he is doing a good job deceiving men. It says that those that are coming out of this time, are having a harder time then in Sodom and Gomorrah. That should tell us how ad it is getting. I am glad I am old and don't have to worry about flesh anymore, to that degree, that is.
Peace and Love Irene

[Jodi Lee]

Quote (Lightenup @ June 10 2009,19:28)

Jodi, You wrote this: Quote IMO to be honest it's just a disguise to your inept ability to actually prove your belief with scripture. Does that approach really work for you??  I have better things to do with my time.  Maybe another time with a better approach…as the Holy Spirit leads. Kathi

Yes, Honesty does work for me Kathi.

Like I said, I find when you said, “debating with you on whether satan is a fallen angel or not would just cause me to spend hours focusing on the kingdom of darkness.”

to be a weird thing to say.

My husband thought as well, your cop out was a new and very unusually one.  

You also said, “I have read enough stories from the Bible and elsewhere and know people who said they had experienced the paranormal that I will certainly not think that it was all in their head.”

If you have TRULY read ENOUGH stories from the bible, then it really should only take just a moment to lead me to those supposed scriptures of which you believe show a clear proof of fallen angels.

You have asked me questions and I have taken the time to answer them.

Kathi you said,

“So, Jodi, we are on different sides of the fence here.  Thanks for your time. My hope is for our unity in truth…press on!”

If your hope is for unity in truth, why can't you answer my questions? You did ask me to press on, and I did by asking you questions.

Don't you see from my point of view Kathi, do to your actions, why I have accused you of being a cop out.  

Just what sort of approach do you need Kathi in order for you to produce scripture to back up you fallen angel doctrine? Flattery?

Would you rather have me be deceitfully smooth, in my asking you? I choose honestly.

You have better things to do with your time then discuss scripture? If that is the case then why are you on this forum at all?

Your first excuse was you not wanting to spend time focusing on the kingdom of darkness, and now it's my attitude.

No more excuses please, just don't bother to post back.

If asking you to post scriptures on the adversary and slanderer would in your opinion honestly cause your mind to be fixed in darkness, then my sincere apologies for calling that a cop out. If this is truly the case, then I will pray for you.  

Like I said before TRUTH is light, just because we study the adversary in the bible does not mean we have to go to a dark place and feel gloomy and glum. Jesus destroyed the works of the devil, we should be able to study the devil and not feel threatened, but enlightened!

I am sorry you don't feel the same way.

[GeneBalthrop]

Jodi………..The plague they recieve by believing in these false doctrines of demons and devils as POWERS competing with GOD, is Idolatry, and the Plagues they recieve is delusions, and all kinds of mental (fears) and phobias, which restricts their thinking and their lifes. IMO

Peace and love to you and yours…………………………gene

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Gene @ June 10 2009,12:48)

Jodi………..The plague they recieve by believing in these false doctrines of demons and devils as POWERS competing with GOD, is Idolatry,  and the Plagues they recieve is delusions, and all kinds of mental (fears) and phobias, which restricts their thinking and their lifes.  IMO Peace and love to you and yours…………………………gene

Hi Gene

Oh, so now God sends “plagues” to those who believe in Jesus, those who are his sons and daughters in the faith?

Careful what you say about God's children!

Seriously, If Kathi was to take the time to debate Jodi on this, she would totally destroy her false idiology, by the simple truths found in the scriptures. Jodi can't even get past Job 1 let alone Jesus in the wilderness without all kinds of opologetics and explaining away the scriptures. IMO.

Blessings WJ

[GeneBalthrop]

Jodi……….God has given you a ministry of bringing this out, don't let any discourage you , we are all held accountable to what GOD has revealed unto us, it is good for edification, to Saints, the true believers who have the Spirit of truth in them. They do see the logic and soundness of the scriptures you have posted and others Just aren't able to recieve it. IMO

peace and love to you and yours……………………………….gene

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Gene @ June 10 2009,13:21)

Jodi……….God has given you a ministry  of bringing this out, don't let any discourage you , we are all held accountable to what GOD has revealed unto us, it is good for edification, to Saints, the true believers who have the Spirit of truth in them. They do see the logic and soundness of the scriptures you have posted  and others Just aren't able to recieve it.     IMO peace and love to you and yours……………………………….gene

Hi Gene

We realize that you and Jodi and GM think that you are the only ones around here with the Spirit of truth. How arrogant and foolish! IMO.

WJ

[NickHassan]

Hi Jodi,
Indeed they manifested as children of the serpent, Satan.
Though you are quick to dismiss scriptural truth you can never grasp it's imagery.

[Author]

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