John 8:25

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September 27, 2011 at 2:00 am#259473

Participant

Hi Mike :
I hope this is answering your question.
The Christ ….. born of the Holy Ghost ….. to be named Jesus in the flesh…
and returned to heaven to be at our Father's right hand, as King of kings and Lord of lords.

Hebrews 1:4,5 Being made so much better than the angels, as He hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they. For unto which of the angels said HE at any time, thou are my Son, this day I have begotten thee?….
Acts 13:33 And GOD hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that HE HATH RAISED UP JESUS AGAIN; as it is also written in the second Psalm, THOU ART MY SON, THIS DAY HAVE I BEGOTTEN THEE.
Hebrews 2:9 But we shall see JESUS, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honor; that HE by the grace of GOD should taste death for every man.
Ephesians 2:1 And you WHO WERE DEAD in trespasses and sins {that's us before we were born again} hath HE quickened. (Quickened means made alive).
Acts 2: 25-27; 29-31 For David speaketh concerning Him, I forsaw The LORD always before my face, for He is on my right hand, that I should not be moved: Therefore did my heart rejoice and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope: Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither will thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption…. Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day. Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that GOD had sworn with an oath to Him, that of the fruit of His loins, according to the flesh, He would rise up Christ to sit on His throne; He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that His soul was not left in hell, neither His flesh did see corruption.
Acts 13:33 GOD hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that He hath raised up JESUS again; as it is also written in the second Psalm, Thou art my son, this day have I begotten thee.

September 27, 2011 at 12:06 pm#259487

Pastry

Participant

Happyman! I found this on the Internet… Even so it says nothing about the trinity, a Baptist Minister gave us a Book of Tertullian, which states that He did bring up the trinity….One more thing I want to add here… I was not surprised at your answer… Most people today go by whatever the Churches teach, whether it is according to Scriptures or not…You and others who believe in the trinity cannot proof that the trinity is according to Scriptures, THE WORD OF GOD-THE BIBLE…
And because of that we left the Catholic Church…..We searched God with all of our Hearts and Soul…. and in the process we found Him in the Scriptures….We worship one God not three in one God….

Quintus Septimus Florens Tertullianus of Carthage
(c. 160 – 225)

“Tertullian is the church father who more than any other has been taken to epitomise the anti-intellectualism of the early Church.”

Quintus Septimus Florens Tertullianus was born in Carthage to pagan parents, but became a Christian at some point before AD 197. According to Jerome1 and Eusebius2 he trained as a lawyer in Rome. Following his conversion he became a presbyter in the church at Carthage, but dissociated himself from the Church after the bishop of Rome rejected the ‘New Prophecy’ of the Montanist movement. However, “…neither Eusebius nor Jerome is in this matter a reliable witness, and what can be known about Tertullian’s life must be gathered from his own writings; unfortunately, their highly rhetorical character makes inference insecure.”3) Very different conclusions may be reached from the fragmentary evidence available to us.4

Reasons for His Condemnation

Throughout church history Tertullian has received condemnation for two main reasons: his association with the Montanist movement5 and because of his supposed anti-intellectualism. However, the vast majority of scholars now agree that the Montanists were doctrinally orthodox,6 and so there are no grounds for rejecting Tertullian’s contribution to theology on the grounds of his association with them. Roger Forster & Paul Marston, for example, refer to Minucius Felix (late 2nd/3rd century), as Tertullian’s “more orthodox” contemporary.7 However, it should be noted that in Minucius Felix’s work Octavius Christianity is treated from the standpoint of philosophy, Scripture is not cited, nor are major biblical teachings much discussed.8 It is therefore difficult to accept Forster & Marston’s view on the basis of arguments from silence. There has been a long history of debate whether Tertullian used Octavius as a source for his Apology or vice versa. Current opinion favours the priority of the Apology.9 This is not the first time that Tertullian’s orthodoxy has been attacked in order to undermine his credibility as a witness to the beliefs and practises of the church of his day. William Wall used the same ploy in the 1840’s to support his case for infant baptism. Wall wrote that Tertullian “…fell into the heresy of the Montanists, who blasphemously held that one Montanus was that Paraclete or Comforter which our Saviour promised to send: and that better and fuller discoveries of God’s will were made to him than to the Apostles, who prophesied only in part.”10 To which Paul K. Jewett responds: “But the noble African’s reputation as a Christian and theologian scarcely needs defence against such beggarly invective.”11

Tertullian is the church father who more than any other has been taken to epitomise the anti-intellectualism of the early Church. Tertullian wrote:

For philosophy is the material of the world’s wisdom, the rash interpreter of the nature and dispensation of God. Indeed heresies are themselves instigated by philosophy… What indeed has Athens to do with Jerusalem? What has the Academy to do with the Church? What have heretics to do with Christians? Our instruction comes from the porch of Solomon, who had himself taught that the Lord should be sought in simplicity of heart. Away with all attempts to produce a Stoic, Platonic, and dialectic Christianity! We want no curious disputation after possessing Christ Jesus, no inquisition after receiving the gospel! When we believe, we desire no further belief. For this is our first article of faith, that there is nothing which we ought to believe besides.12

Tertullian’s Rhetoric

Three facts that lie behind Tertullian’s rhetoric that are seldom considered:
1.Greek philosophy was “an amalgam of rival world-views, based on premises that are very different from the biblical revelation.”13 Their failure to establish any means of accountability to allow the resolution of disputes was already appreciated by Diodorus (c.90-21 BC), Galen (c.130-200 AD) and Claudius Ptolemy (2nd cent. AD) (and other leading thinkers of the 2nd century.14
2. Tertullian believed that “heresies are themselves instigated by philosophy,”15 Plato and Aristotle being responsible for Valentinian Gnosticism.16 David Lindberg argues that “what he therefore opposed was not philosophy generally, but heresy or the philosophy that gave rise to it.”17
3.Tertullian himself made use of philosophical (particularly Stoic) ideas in his writings.18 He agreed with Plato on the matter of the immortality of the soul.19 He even claimed (as Philo and Justin Martyr had before him) that the philosophers borrowed from the Jewish Scriptures.20 Like all writers, he assumed that he was able to write theology without incorporating his own presuppositions.21

The statement cited above must be viewed in the context of his other works:

Elsewhere Tertullian does not always speak in such robust terms of an unbridgeable chasm separating Athens and Jerusalem. He was as well educated as anyone of his time: a competent lawyer, able to publish his writings in both Latin and Greek with equal facility, acquainted with the current arguments of the Platonic, Stoic and Aristotelian schools and also possessing some knowledge of medicine.22

I believe it because it is absurd

Finally, Tertullian’s argument “I believe it because it is absurd”23 has been shown to be a misquotation, but more importantly it is an example of a standard Aristotelian argumentative form. Put simply what Tertullian is actually saying is that

…the more improbable an event, the less likely is anyone to believe, without compelling evidence, that it has occurred; therefore, the very improbability of an alleged event, such as Christ’s resurrection, is evidence in its favour. Thus far from seeking the abolition of reason, Tertullian must be seen as appropriating Aristotelian rational techniques and putting them to apologetic use.24

Indeed, in his Apology he demonstrated his familiarity with at least thirty literary authorities, which he probably had read first hand, rather than by referring to a handbook of quotations.25

Tertullian’s method of exegesis varied depending on the purpose of each of his works. When writing against the Gnostic Marcion (who rejected the Old Testament and all use of allegory) Tertullian defended its use, noting how even Paul had used allegory in his letters.26 While he admitted that the use of allegory was sometimes legitimate he made it clear that he himself preferred the literal sense.27 His principle for identifying the presence of allegory was that it was present if the literal sense resulted in nonsense; it is not present when the literal meaning makes sense.28 In this he did not differ significantly from Origen’s principle.29 In his other works Tertullian’s use of allegory is restrained.30 Following other writers (such as Justin and Irenaeus) Tertullian used typology extensively to demonstrate the unity of the Testaments,31 but the figures that he found in the Old Testament were based upon historical persons, places and events, and were used consistently.32 As O’Malley points out: “He clearly does not feel able to allegorise generally, simply because Paul uses
the words in Gal. 4:24.”33
Irene

September 27, 2011 at 12:30 pm#259488

Pastry

Participant

To all! It is so important to some to teach the truth… Who is the Son of God??…. Is He the third person of the trinity? To go by Scriptures like John 8;25 it teaches us that He does whatever His Father tells Him to…. He also told us that His Father is greater then He is….John 14:28,
Ephesians 4:6 teaches us that the Father is above all, yet some will ignore those plain written Scriptures and hang on to whatever the Churches in the world teach….
Deut. 4:35 says that says that there is one God and that there is none beside Him… yet Churches teach Jesus is equal to God…
Deut.6:4 teaches us that there is ONE LORD… Now we have to see who LORD is…. Jesus too is called Lord… Mostly in small letters…. while Jehovah God is in all capital letters….
We have a Ryie Study Bible and the King James, the Moffatt, and a German Bible…
In the Ryie Bible in the footnotes it states that the translators used LORD, in all capital letters, because they didn't want to take Gods Name in vain…. Therefore mostly in the Old Testament LORD is used… Only a couple of Scriptures say Jehovah, who is Gods name…

I also find it interesting that most Churches teach that Gods Holy Spirit is a person… Is that what the Bible teaches? No… I already gave you some Scriptures about the Spirit of God in a previous post to thehappyman….

What else does Scriptures teach us about wrong doctrines… and in closing I say too i love all people, and that is why I write all of this and spend time explaining what Scriptures teach….one more thing, just because some go along with today's Churches, does not make it right….

Mat 15:9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching [for] doctrines the commandments of men.

Irene

September 28, 2011 at 12:42 am#259529

mikeboll64

Blocked

Quote (thehappyman @ Sep. 26 2011,20:00)

Hi Ty,

I agree with your statement because it is scripturally true. (Although I would say “born THROUGH”, or “born BY MEANS OF” the Holy Spirit instead of “born OF” the Holy Spirit – because Jesus is not the Son of the Holy Spirit, but of God. So even according to the flesh, Jesus was born OF GOD, “BY MEANS OF” God's Holy Spirit.

The problem is that your statement here contradicts the page you linked us to. Those people seem to think Jesus IS God Almighty instead of the Son OF God Almighty.

We Christians only have ONE God, Ty. So Jesus can either be the SON OF our one God, or he can BE our one God. But he cannot be both God AND the Son OF God.

peace,
mike

September 28, 2011 at 12:42 am#259530

mikeboll64

Blocked

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 25 2011,18:22)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 22 2011,20:28)

Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 21 2011,19:42)

John 16:15
“All things that the Father has are Mine; therefore I said that He takes of Mine and will disclose it to you.

Kathi

Kathi,

Who GAVE those things to Jesus?

Bump for Kathi – to get this thread back on topic

Bump for Kathi…………….again

September 28, 2011 at 4:31 am#259546

thehappyman

Participant

Hi all ,
I've beaten the Mulberry bush enough about trinity. It's time for me to move on.
Before long; mark my words, that man will wax cold because of the confusion and delibrate taking away from the bible, and mixing bible together like oil and water. You have to stop stirring to begin to see the truth.
With peace and love to all

September 28, 2011 at 12:32 pm#259555

Pastry

Participant

WHAT IS THIS FORUM FOR??? IS IT NOT TO TEACH AND LEARN FROM EACH OTHER IS IT WRONG TO SHOW A BROTHER IN CHRIST, SCRIPTURES THAT CONTRADICT HIS TEACHING??? I SURE DON'T THINK SO…… HOW MANY TIMES HAVE I BEEN WRONG, AND WHEN I SEE THAT IT IS SO, CORRECT IT…..
THAT IS WHAT LEARNING IS ALL ABOUT…..AND WHAT IS LOVE? IS IT TO IGNORE THE BROTHER THAT DOES NOT GO BY GOOD SCRIPTURES? I DON'T THINK SO….IN FACT I FIND IT MY RESPONSIBILITY TO SHOW HIM OF HER HOW WRONG THOSE DOCTRINES ARE….FOR A CERTAIN TIME LIMIT THAT IS……
THE TRUTH WILL NEVER WAX COLD, IT WILL ALWAYS STAND…AND WHO IS IT THAT TAKES AWAY FROM THE BIBLE??
THE TRINITY IS NOT ACCORDING TO ANY SCRIPTURE, AND WE HAVE PROVEN IT ALSO…..ANYONE THAT WANTS TO CHALLENGE THAT TRUTH, GOES DIRECTLY AGAINST WHAT GOD HAS REVEALED US BY HIS HOLY SPIRIT……WE ALSO DON'T STIR THE POT, WE ACKNOWLEDGED SCRIPTURES…
I DON'T WANT TO OFFEND ANYONE, I LOVE ALL PEOPLE…. WE HAVE FAMILY IN TODAY'S CHURCHES..
I LOVE THEM ALSO VERY MUCH….. BUT TRUTH IS TRUTH AND FALSE DOCTRINES IS FALSE DOCTRINE, WE CANNOT GET AWAY FROM THAT…..
MAY GOD BLESS ALL OF US, AND PEACE AND LOVE TO ALL, IRENE

September 28, 2011 at 8:05 pm#259565

thehappyman

Participant

Hi Irene :
Peace ,
Yes this forum is about learning from one another. what i said ” was it's time for Me to move on.
and as for as waxing cold …. is a matter of opinion i have…. and your point is well received and i meant no offence … just an opinion … and for learning purposes i have my opinion which is ( as i stated on another tracks) i only use the KJV 1611 version bible. Call me close minded, lol , I really did not mean for anyone to be offended. I am sorry . to all that read this track and that are on this site. I do apologize.
Sincerely, thehappyman

September 28, 2011 at 8:40 pm#259566

Lightenup

Participant

Quote (thehappyman @ Sep. 25 2011,22:26)

Hi Kathi ,
Who is the Spirit of Theos . I look up the name and found the book of Eph. Paul speaking about the body of the church. I could guess on what you mean, but I rather not and just ask the question.

Hi Happyman,
I believe that the word 'spirit' has different meanings and to absolutely know and understand the word, I do not think possible on this side of heaven. We can get some understanding though from what the Bible teaches about the spirit of man and God. We are told that the spirit of a man is his 'innerperson/innerman.'

2 Corinthians 4:16 Therefore we do not lose heart, but though our outer man is decaying, yet our inner man is being renewed day by day.

I know that you did not ask me what the spirit of man was but the spirit of God, since we are made in His image, may be comparable.

The Spirit of God knows the mind of God…the spirit of man knows the mind of man.

1 Cor 2:11 For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so the thoughts of God no one knows except the Spirit of God.

The Spirit of God is sent to be with believers.

John 15:26 “When the Helper comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, that is the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He will testify about Me,

Gal 4:6 Because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into our hearts, crying, “Abba! Father!”

So we see, there is the Spirit of the Father and there is the Spirit of the Son.

John 14:23 Jesus answered and said to him, “If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our abode with him.

Philippians 1:27 Only conduct yourselves in a manner worthy of the gospel of Christ, so that whether I come and see you or remain absent, I will hear of you that you are standing firm in one spirit, with one mind striving together for the faith of the gospel;

We can see from this above verse, that man's spirit can be united and described as 'one spirit.' It seems to me that the Father's Spirit and the Son's Spirit act as one Spirit even more so.

So, with all that said, happyman, with my limited understanding, I believe that the Father and the Son each have a Spirit or 'innerperson' within them that unites as one Spirit and extends from them without severing from them, to dwell within believers in order to guide, comfort, empower, instruct, enlighten, strengthen etc. the believer to do know and do the will of God with all love, patience, kindness, gentleness, joy, peace, faithfulness and self-control.

Also, through the Holy Spirit, the Father and the Son extend their presence to be wherever they are and thus omnipresent, whatever the extent of that is, I don't know. Where can we go from their presence? No where, even to the remotest part of the sea, even there, they will be with us.

7Where can I go from Your Spirit?
Or where can I flee from Your presence?
8If I ascend to heaven, You are there;
If I make my bed in Sheol, behold, You are there.

9If I take the wings of the dawn,
If I dwell in the remotest part of the sea,

10Even there Your hand will lead me,
And Your right hand will lay hold of me.

I hope this helps,
Kathi

September 28, 2011 at 9:40 pm#259567

Lightenup

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 27 2011,19:42)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 25 2011,18:22)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 22 2011,20:28)

Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 21 2011,19:42)

John 16:15
“All things that the Father has are Mine; therefore I said that He takes of Mine and will disclose it to you.

Kathi

Kathi,

Who GAVE those things to Jesus?

Bump for Kathi – to get this thread back on topic

Bump for Kathi…………….again

Mike,
As the pre-existent Son, He always had all things but we are told that He emptied Himself and so, as the Son of man, He was given things by the Father. It isn't clear as to what He emptied Himself of.

Kathi

September 28, 2011 at 11:48 pm#259570

mikeboll64

Blocked

Hi Kathi,

If you cannot produce a scripture that says Jesus had all things before the Father gave them to him, then this scripture is also not proof of Jesus claiming to be God Almighty. Besides, we know that the Father is the only true God, and for us, the ONLY God. (John 17:3, 1 Cor 8:6)

So if Jesus says that all things THE FATHER has are also his, he is not saying he IS God, but that he has the things OF God.

So it seems that I'm still waiting for the first scripture from John's gospel where Jesus directly and CLEARLY let's us know he is really God Almighty, and not the Son OF God Almighty.

mike

September 29, 2011 at 1:26 am#259575

Lightenup

Participant

Mike,
Jesus IS the Son of God Almighty and that is why He is also a God and not an angel.

Quote

Jesus had all things

Col 1:16For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him.

For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form,

John 2027Then He said to Thomas, “Reach here with your finger, and see My hands; and reach here your hand and put it into My side; and do not be unbelieving, but believing.” 28Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God!” 29Jesus said to him, “Because you have seen Me, have you believed? Blessed are they who did not see, and yet believed.”

John 1:18 No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.

I have shown you that He is called Lord and God, and the only begotten God, and that He has the fullness of deity within Him and that all things have been created by Him and for Him. I can show you in John where he was almost stoned because the Jews accused Him of blasphemy for claiming that He was God. I have shown you that He identifies with the name of 'I AM.' I have shown you where Jesus claimed that we need to eat of His body and drink His blood and we will never be hungry or thirsty. It is known that He is the Word of God that was God even in the beginning with God. I have also shown you many writings of the early church father's that claim that He is to be worshiped with the Father and explain that God begot God. They consistently compare the two (the Father and the Son) as the God that was unbegotten and the God that was begotten, not the God that was unbegotten and the angel that was begotten.

If you can't believe that Jesus is the only begotten God, then it just proves that it is by faith and not by sight and that you do not have faith in this truth. You believe in the only begotten angel.

You cannot produce a single scripture where Jesus directly and clearly states that He is what you believe…the only begotten angel created directly from God and the angel that God made everything else through.

Kathi

September 29, 2011 at 2:31 am#259578

mikeboll64

Blocked