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Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 20 2011,18:37) Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 19 2011,23:45) Mike,
The 'I AM' could not have been 'I have existed' because it is written in the present tense, not the past tense.
Just like in 14:9 Kathi? Where virtually EVERY translator renders it as “I have been” so it actually makes sense in English?
Mike,
You need to distinguish ego eimi in the sentences with a direct object and those sentences where ego eimi does not have a direct object.Please note, the same translators that you brag on in John 14:9 translated ego eimi as I AM. Remember that you don't know the Greek grammar so well and you should not try to think you know better but foster a spirit of trying to understand.
New International Version (©1984)
“I tell you the truth,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!”New Living Translation (©2007)
Jesus answered, “I tell you the truth, before Abraham was even born, I Am!”English Standard Version (©2001)
Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am.”New American Standard Bible (©1995)
Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am.”International Standard Version (©2008)
Jesus said to them, “Truly, I tell all of you with certainty, before there was an Abraham, I AM!”GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
Jesus told them, “I can guarantee this truth: Before Abraham was ever born, I am.”King James Bible
Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.American King James Version
Jesus said to them, Truly, truly, I say to you, Before Abraham was, I am.American Standard Version
Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was born, I am.Bible in Basic English
Jesus said to them, Truly I say to you, Before Abraham came into being, I am.Douay-Rheims Bible
Jesus said to them: Amen, amen I say to you, before Abraham was made, I am.Darby Bible Translation
Jesus said to them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.English Revised Version
Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.Webster's Bible Translation
Jesus said to them, Verily, verily, I say to you, Before Abraham was, I am.Weymouth New Testament
“In most solemn truth,” answered Jesus, “I tell you that before Abraham came into existence, I am.”World English Bible
Jesus said to them, “Most certainly, I tell you, before Abraham came into existence, I AM.”Young's Literal Translation
Jesus said to them, 'Verily, verily, I say to you, Before Abraham's coming — I am;'Kathi
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 20 2011,18:43) Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 19 2011,23:53) Irene,
You missed the point. In the OT, Jehovah says that no one was with Him when He created, and then in the NT it clearly says that the Word WAS WITH GOD and that all was created through that Word that was WITH God.So, how can Jehovah be alone without anyone with Him and have someone with Him all at the same time unless Jehovah is the name of a compound unity?
You can't seem to explain this contradiction?
Kathi
Did Jehovah create Cain and Abel ALONE and BY HIMSELF, Kathi? Who was with him when He did that? Obviously no one, for God said so, right? Yet he still created Cain and Abel THROUGH Adam and Eve, didn't He?The one through whom God creates apparently doesn't need to be “with God” from His point of view.
Another moot point, Kathi.
Cain and Abel were not created, they were begotten from those that were created.Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 20 2011,18:47) Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 19 2011,23:55) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 19 2011,19:39) Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 18 2011,22:35) Quote Who did Jesus claim to be? I AM
Actually, he claimed to be the SON OF “I AM”.
Ok Mike,
Show us what verse tells you this, ya know, where He said that He was the Son of I AM.
Do you doubt that the One Jesus called his Father is the One that you call “I AM the Father”?
Once again: Jehovah is the Most High God. (Gen 14:22) And Jesus is the SON OF the Most High God. (Mark 5:7) Do you accept these scriptures as truth?
Mike,
Technically, Jesus never referred to His Father as the “I AM.”Mike and Happyman,
Mike said:Quote They understand it until they are completely and systematically brainwashed by the leaders of their churches that teach the totally nonsensical notion that the Son OF God can BE the God he is the Son OF. The children are taught that the Son of God has the same nature as the God He is the Son of. They are never taught that the Son is also the Father. I don't know where you get that notion that you keep repeating.
The compound unity of the trinity doctrine has three persons within it, not one. Even kids can understand how unity works by the example of a church…one church with many members, not just one member talking to themself.
Kathi
Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 20 2011,19:23) Mike,
You need to distinguish ego eimi in the sentences with a direct object and those sentences where ego eimi does not have a direct object.Please note, the same translators that you brag on in John 14:9 translated ego eimi as I AM. Remember that you don't know the Greek grammar so well and you should not try to think you know better but foster a spirit of trying to understand.
Then explain why virtually NO scholar renders John 8:24 simply as “I am”. Or why the majority of them recognize the past tense that is crucial to understanding 14:9 in English. This is the kind of idiomatic uses of “I am” that Jason Be Duhn was talking about when he said this: “The majority of translations recognize these idiomatic uses of ‘I am’, and properly integrate the words into the context of the passages where they appear. Yet when it comes to 8:58, they suddenly forget how to translate.”Perhaps YOU know more than this man who makes his living teaching Greek at a college level?
Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 20 2011,19:28) Cain and Abel were not created, they were begotten from those that were created.
ALL human beings are the creations of God, Kathi. The fact that God created Cain THROUGH Adam and Eve doesn't negate the fact that he was one of God's creations, as we all are.Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 20 2011,19:29) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 20 2011,18:47) Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 19 2011,23:55) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 19 2011,19:39) Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 18 2011,22:35) Quote Who did Jesus claim to be? I AM
Actually, he claimed to be the SON OF “I AM”.
Ok Mike,
Show us what verse tells you this, ya know, where He said that He was the Son of I AM.
Do you doubt that the One Jesus called his Father is the One that you call “I AM the Father”?Once again: Jehovah is the Most High God. (Gen 14:22) And Jesus is the SON OF the Most High God. (Mark 5:7) Do you accept these scriptures as truth?
Mike,
Technically, Jesus never referred to His Father as the “I AM.”
Moot. Jesus claimed to be the Son of God, which to you is “I Am the Father”. Ipso facto, Jesus claimed to be the Son of “I AM”. The “I AM” is not accurate, nor is that part important for this point. The part that IS important is that Jesus claimed, not to be God Himself, but to be the Son OF that One.I tell you what, Kathi. Let's drop the John 8:58 “I AM” thing for a while so you can focus on showing me the OTHER places in John where Jesus claimed to be God or equal to him.
Remember, only the direct quotes of Jesus are allowed, for we are trying to find out what HE taught about himself.
I have listed 23 instances where Jesus claimed to be OTHER THAN and/or LESSOR TO God. So, even if I grant you the “I AM” thing, you still have 22 more to go – JUST TO EVEN THE SCORE.
Let's see if you can even come up with ONE.mike
Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 20 2011,19:36) Mike and Happyman,
Mike said:Quote They understand it until they are completely and systematically brainwashed by the leaders of their churches that teach the totally nonsensical notion that the Son OF God can BE the God he is the Son OF. The children are taught that the Son of God has the same nature as the God He is the Son of. They are never taught that the Son is also the Father. I don't know where you get that notion that you keep repeating.
The compound unity of the trinity doctrine has three persons within it, not one. Even kids can understand how unity works by the example of a church…one church with many members, not just one member talking to themself.
Kathi
No Kathi,Children understand that they have ONE God. They understand that Jesus is the Son OF that ONE God. They understand that the Son OF the President cannot possibly BE the President the same way they understand that the Son OF God cannot possibly BE God.
This “nature” and “compound unity” stuff is the “brainwashing” from people like you that I was referring to. You must TWIST a child's common sense to get them to think the Son OF our ONE God IS that ONE God.
Hi all ,
first of all ; I pray that i have not offended anyone.
And may our Lord help me not to start offending.Good morning all :
8:27 They understood not that he spake to them of the Father.
sometimes we are confounded and the ” Holy Spirit has not yet revieled it unto us ” for he teaches us in all truth. Then our eyes shall be opened and all the gifts shall be added to achieve His will for us .
John 8: 28 Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am [he], and [that] I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.29 And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him.
I love this chapter because it tells us more of Jehovah and His Son and our responibilies to do His will for soul winning.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 20 2011,21:39) I tell you what, Kathi. Let's drop the John 8:58 “I AM” thing for a while so you can focus on showing me the OTHER places in John where Jesus claimed to be God or equal to him. Remember, only the direct quotes of Jesus are allowed, for we are trying to find out what HE taught about himself.
I have listed 23 instances where Jesus claimed to be OTHER THAN and/or LESSOR TO God. So, even if I grant you the “I AM” thing, you still have 22 more to go – JUST TO EVEN THE SCORE.
Let's see if you can even come up with ONE.mike
John 16:15
“All things that the Father has are Mine; therefore I said that He takes of Mine and will disclose it to you.Kathi
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 20 2011,21:25) Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 20 2011,19:23) Mike,
You need to distinguish ego eimi in the sentences with a direct object and those sentences where ego eimi does not have a direct object.Please note, the same translators that you brag on in John 14:9 translated ego eimi as I AM. Remember that you don't know the Greek grammar so well and you should not try to think you know better but foster a spirit of trying to understand.
Then explain why virtually NO scholar renders John 8:24 simply as “I am”. Or why the majority of them recognize the past tense that is crucial to understanding 14:9 in English. This is the kind of idiomatic uses of “I am” that Jason Be Duhn was talking about when he said this: “The majority of translations recognize these idiomatic uses of ‘I am’, and properly integrate the words into the context of the passages where they appear. Yet when it comes to 8:58, they suddenly forget how to translate.”Perhaps YOU know more than this man who makes his living teaching Greek at a college level?
Mike,
I agree with the other scholars that I posted unanimously translated John 8:58 with 'I AM.' I'm not stating that I know better than Mr. Beduhn, just that I believe the other translators translation is correct.Kathi
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 20 2011,21:43) Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 20 2011,19:36) Mike and Happyman,
Mike said:Quote They understand it until they are completely and systematically brainwashed by the leaders of their churches that teach the totally nonsensical notion that the Son OF God can BE the God he is the Son OF. The children are taught that the Son of God has the same nature as the God He is the Son of. They are never taught that the Son is also the Father. I don't know where you get that notion that you keep repeating.
The compound unity of the trinity doctrine has three persons within it, not one. Even kids can understand how unity works by the example of a church…one church with many members, not just one member talking to themself.
Kathi
No Kathi,Children understand that they have ONE God. They understand that Jesus is the Son OF that ONE God. They understand that the Son OF the President cannot possibly BE the President the same way they understand that the Son OF God cannot possibly BE God.
This “nature” and “compound unity” stuff is the “brainwashing” from people like you that I was referring to. You must TWIST a child's common sense to get them to think the Son OF our ONE God IS that ONE God.
George W. Bush was a president in the same way that George Bush, his father, was a president. Children can get that a father and son can have the same name and the same nature. They can also understand how there is one God in the fullest sense, made up of more than one person and each person is God.
The church in her fullest sense is one church, made up of more than one congregation and each congregation is a separate church.
Kids can also grasp that the Bible is one book in its fullest sense yet made up of more than one book.So, there you have the God, the Church, and the Bible…all compound unities made up of separate persons or congregations or books.
Kathi
Quote (thehappyman @ Sep. 21 2011,08:55) Hi all ,
first of all ; I pray that i have not offended anyone.
And may our Lord help me not to start offending.
Good morning all :
8:27 They understood not that he spake to them of the Father.
sometimes we are confounded and the ” Holy Spirit has not yet revieled it unto us ” for he teaches us in all truth. Then our eyes shall be opened and all the gifts shall be added to achieve His will for us .
John 8: 28 Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am [he], and [that] I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.29 And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him.
I love this chapter because it tells us more of Jehovah and His Son and our responibilies to do His will for soul winning.
Happyman,
I know that you would not want to offend anyone so why would you pick on the trinity and speak as though Jesus was talking to Himself when the trinity does not teach that? Who were you talking about that says that? Modalists maybe?Kathi
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 20 2011,21:28) Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 20 2011,19:28) Cain and Abel were not created, they were begotten from those that were created.
ALL human beings are the creations of God, Kathi. The fact that God created Cain THROUGH Adam and Eve doesn't negate the fact that he was one of God's creations, as we all are.
Mike,
Can you find me a scripture that speaks of Jehovah creating AND being alone that is not in the past tense but is written in a continuous sense?Kathi
Without going through this whole topic Kathi, is the following the only verse left that you think is a candidate for Jesus claiming to be YHWH using ego-eimi?
Jesus answered, “I tell you the truth, before Abraham was even born, I Am!”
Or are there still others in your mind?
t8,
I posted one at the top of the page that implies a compound unity of two persons who each have what the other has.Also, this one:
Therefore Jesus answered and was saying to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, unless it is something He sees the Father doing; for whatever the Father does, these things the Son also does in like manner.This shows us the interdependence of the two persons and that the Son can do the same things that He sees the Father doing.
And this:
John 6:33 “For the bread of God is that which comes down out of heaven, and gives life to the world.” 34Then they said to Him, “Lord, always give us this bread.” 35Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life; he who comes to Me will not hunger, and he who believes in Me will never thirst.That statement sounds rather blasphemous if Jesus were not deity…He gives life to the world…Those who come to HIM will not hunger or ever thirst.
What is baffling about the John 6 chapter is Jesus begins by feeding 5000 people with 5 loaves and 2 fish…He also knows what they are about to do before they do it…He walks on water to a boat about 3-4 miles off shore, when in the boat, it immediately gets to the other shore…then the people ask Him the next day for a sign that they should believe in Him. Did they not know that He just fed 5000 people with 5 loaves and 2 fish? And there were leftovers? Now they are asking for a sign?
It seems that Jesus is constantly talking about how He and the Father are working together in whatever He does which would show an interdependency within a compound unity. The Father sends the bread and Jesus is the bread that is sent…not just any bread but bread that gives life to the world.
Then there is creation…more scripture there, but enough for now.
Kathi
Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 21 2011,19:42) John 16:15
“All things that the Father has are Mine; therefore I said that He takes of Mine and will disclose it to you.Kathi
Kathi,Who GAVE those things to Jesus?
Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 21 2011,20:17) So, there you have the God, the Church, and the Bible…all compound unities made up of separate persons or congregations or books.
Kathi,God is a PERSON, not a government made up of people. Can you name another compound unity that is actually a SINGULAR PERSON
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