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Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 18 2011,22:35) Quote Who did Jesus claim to be? I AM
Actually, he claimed to be the SON OF “I AM”.Kathi! Why Oh, Why do you ignore plain written Scripture?
Jehovah God is one and not two or three…. Scriptures say so….. your believe is flawed indeed…..Peace IreneKathi! Just reading back what you said to me, to look at
Isa 44:24 ¶ Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I [am] the LORD that maketh all [things]; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;
And John 1:1 well it was God Himself that created all, just because He used Jesus or The Word of God to help Him, does not make Jesus Jehovah God…. that name is the Most High Gods name ALONE not Jesus name….. You making Scriptures out to what they don't mean…..Peace Irene
Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 19 2011,14:00) So barley,
I was wondering…could you say this:
“Before my grandfather was born, I AM?”didn't think so.
I don't think any of us existed before our grandfathers, Kathi. So we couldn't imply that before them, we had existed.Jesus DID exist before Abraham, so could therefore say that before him, I have existed.
Moot point.
Quote (barley @ Sep. 19 2011,14:35) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 13 2011,12:01) Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 12 2011,17:59) And what does the name 'Jesus' mean…Jehovah our Righteousness.
Well, “Jesus” is the English way to say “Iesous”.And “Iesous” is the Greek way to say “Joshua”.
And “Joshua” is the Hebrew way to say “Jehovah is our Righteousness”.
Now, is EVERYONE in the scriptures with the name Jesus or Joshua actually God Almighty, Kathi? Or is it just this one “Jehovah is our Righteousness” that also happens to be God Almighty Himself?
Mike,Good point, if I may expand upon your sound logic.
Most names in the OT have the name of God as part of the meaning.
Elijah, Elisha, Jeremiah, etc. Because God or El is part of the meaning of their name, does that mean they are God?
barley
Yeah, thanks oatmeal! Long time, no talk!Kathi just blew this point off with the standard “Exception for Jesus” rule. That's the rule that says if Moses is called “good” and God is called “good”, it DOESN'T mean that Moses IS God. But if Jesus is called “good” and God is called “good”, all of a sudden it means that Jesus IS God.
(I did a thread about “Bizzaro Doctrines” that highlights some of this kind of Trinitarian behavior. Check it out if you ever get the chance.)
But anyway, that's how she addressed this point: By saying, “Well, Joshua of the OT isn't Jesus, is he?”
As if that is all the proof she needs to show that Jesus's name makes HIM God, but no one else with that same name is God. Quote (shimmer @ Sep. 19 2011,14:51) Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 20 2011,08:33) Are you trying to say that there are two with the name Jehovah. I agree. One Jehovah as the Father, one Jehovah as the Son and Jehovah in the fullest sense is the name of their unity. See my signature
Kathi,
So according to your signature, when you go to Church, you don't sing to Jesus, but changed the name to Jehovah is this correct? So Jesus is no longer Jesus but is Jehovah? What name do you use?
And Kathi, have you told your pastor or church members that you worship TWO completely separate Gods yet? How did they take it?Quote (Is 1:18 @ Sep. 19 2011,01:42) I agree with you, many times Yeshua applied the “I AM” title to Himself and the significance was not lost on his listeners (e.g. John 8:59).
John 8:24 NIV
I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I amthe one I claim to be, you will indeed die in your sins.”
Paul, you are apparently right, for Jesus' claim that he WAS Jehovah went right over these Jews' heads. We can tell because they asked: “Who are you?” in verse 25, right?But…………….here's the important part of verse 25 – the part where Jesus answered, “Just what I have been claiming all along”
And the whole point of this thread was to determine just what Jesus HAD BEEN claiming all along. Here's is what I came up with from the first 8 chapters of John, which I imagine is what the “all along” was referring to:
1. Is the Son OF God. (3:16)
2. Was given BY God. (3:16)
3. Was sent BY God. (3:17)
4. Has had all things placed in his hands BY God. (3:35)
5. Is a prophet OF God. (4:44)
6. Can do nothing on his own. (5:19)
7. Was granted BY God to have life in him. (5:26)
8. Has been given authority to judge BY God. (5:27)
9. God is someone OTHER THAN Jesus, who testifies in Jesus' favor. (5:32)
10. The Jews had never seen God or heard His voice, although they clearly saw and heard the voice of the one God sent. (5:37)
11. Came in the name OF his God. (5:43)
12. Gives thanks TO his God. (6:11)
13. Has been given the seal of approval BY his God. (6:27)
14. Does the work OF his God, as the one his God has SENT. (6:29)
15. Is the bread OF God. (6:33)
16. Has been given disciples BY God. (6:37)
17. Does the will OF his God. (6:38)
18. Is FROM God, whom no one has ever seen. (6:46)
19. Lives BECAUSE OF his God. (6:57)
20. Says his teachings are not his own, but come FROM the God who sent him. (7:16-17)
21. Is FROM the One who SENT him. (7:28-29)
22. Will go TO the God who SENT him. (7:33)
23. Jesus is one, and the God who SENT him is his OTHER witness. (8:18)None of these things seem to me like Jesus was claiming to be God, or equal to God. Perhaps YOU know of a scripture from the first 8 chapters of John where Jesus DID claim to be God or equal to Him? The “I AM” thing just doesn't cut it for the three reasons I just posted to Kathi on the previous page. And I'll even go you one more:
These are the words of the Greek scholar and professor Jason BeDuhn. He is speaking of idiomatic used of “I am”, like the one that occurs in John 14:9, when Jesus tells Phillip, “I AM among you”, but almost every translation understands that Jesus meant “I HAVE BEEN among you” and render it as such. Or the times when virtually every translation adds a predicate to make sense of the sentence in English, like the NIV did in my quote above – the part I struck through.
“The majority of translations recognize these idiomatic uses of ‘I am’, and properly integrate the words into the context of the passages where they appear. Yet when it comes to 8:58, they suddenly forget how to translate. All the translations except the LB and NWT also ignore the true relation between the verbs of the sentence and produce a sentence that makes no sense in English. These changes in the meaning of the Greek and in the normal procedure for translation point to a bias that has interfered with the work of the translators. No one listening to Jesus, and no one reading John in his own time would have picked up on a divine self-identification in the mere expression ‘I am’, which, if you think about it, is just about the most common pronoun-verb combination in any language.
So………………what else ya got besides this laughable “I am” thing?
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 19 2011,19:58) Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 19 2011,14:00) So barley,
I was wondering…could you say this:
“Before my grandfather was born, I AM?”didn't think so.
I don't think any of us existed before our grandfathers, Kathi. So we couldn't imply that before them, we had existed.Jesus DID exist before Abraham, so could therefore say that before him, I have existed.
Moot point.
Mike,
The 'I AM' could not have been 'I have existed' because it is written in the present tense, not the past tense. That is why it stands out…the 'I AM' doesn't quite flow in the natural way of speaking as is evidence by you wanting to make it past tense. That should tell you that the phrase is saying something different than what you'd expect.BTW, you might want to fill your friend, barley. in. Barley thinks he/she did exist before his/her grandfather.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 19 2011,20:24) Quote (Is 1:18 @ Sep. 19 2011,01:42) I agree with you, many times Yeshua applied the “I AM” title to Himself and the significance was not lost on his listeners (e.g. John 8:59).
John 8:24 NIV
I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I amthe one I claim to be, you will indeed die in your sins.”
Paul, you are apparently right, for Jesus' claim that he WAS Jehovah went right over these Jews' heads. We can tell because they asked: “Who are you?” in verse 25, right?But…………….here's the important part of verse 25 – the part where Jesus answered, “Just what I have been claiming all along”
And the whole point of this thread was to determine just what Jesus HAD BEEN claiming all along. Here's is what I came up with from the first 8 chapters of John, which I imagine is what the “all along” was referring to:
1. Is the Son OF God. (3:16)
2. Was given BY God. (3:16)
3. Was sent BY God. (3:17)
4. Has had all things placed in his hands BY God. (3:35)
5. Is a prophet OF God. (4:44)
6. Can do nothing on his own. (5:19)
7. Was granted BY God to have life in him. (5:26)
8. Has been given authority to judge BY God. (5:27)
9. God is someone OTHER THAN Jesus, who testifies in Jesus' favor. (5:32)
10. The Jews had never seen God or heard His voice, although they clearly saw and heard the voice of the one God sent. (5:37)
11. Came in the name OF his God. (5:43)
12. Gives thanks TO his God. (6:11)
13. Has been given the seal of approval BY his God. (6:27)
14. Does the work OF his God, as the one his God has SENT. (6:29)
15. Is the bread OF God. (6:33)
16. Has been given disciples BY God. (6:37)
17. Does the will OF his God. (6:38)
18. Is FROM God, whom no one has ever seen. (6:46)
19. Lives BECAUSE OF his God. (6:57)
20. Says his teachings are not his own, but come FROM the God who sent him. (7:16-17)
21. Is FROM the One who SENT him. (7:28-29)
22. Will go TO the God who SENT him. (7:33)
23. Jesus is one, and the God who SENT him is his OTHER witness. (8:18)None of these things seem to me like Jesus was claiming to be God, or equal to God. Perhaps YOU know of a scripture from the first 8 chapters of John where Jesus DID claim to be God or equal to Him? The “I AM” thing just doesn't cut it for the three reasons I just posted to Kathi on the previous page. And I'll even go you one more:
These are the words of the Greek scholar and professor Jason BeDuhn. He is speaking of idiomatic used of “I am”, like the one that occurs in John 14:9, when Jesus tells Phillip, “I AM among you”, but almost every translation understands that Jesus meant “I HAVE BEEN among you” and render it as such. Or the times when virtually every translation adds a predicate to make sense of the sentence in English, like the NIV did in my quote above – the part I struck through.
“The majority of translations recognize these idiomatic uses of ‘I am’, and properly integrate the words into the context of the passages where they appear. Yet when it comes to 8:58, they suddenly forget how to translate. All the translations except the LB and NWT also ignore the true relation between the verbs of the sentence and produce a sentence that makes no sense in English. These changes in the meaning of the Greek and in the normal procedure for translation point to a bias that has interfered with the work of the translators. No one listening to Jesus, and no one reading John in his own time would have picked up on a divine self-identification in the mere expression ‘I am’, which, if you think about it, is just about the most common pronoun-verb combination in any language.
So………………what else ya got besides this laughable “I am” thing?
Wow, Mike…nothing about Jesus saying that He was a god or a creation in that list of yours, yet that is what you believe.Quote (Pastry @ Sep. 19 2011,19:53) Kathi! Just reading back what you said to me, to look at Isa 44:24 ¶ Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I [am] the LORD that maketh all [things]; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;
And John 1:1 well it was God Himself that created all, just because He used Jesus or The Word of God to help Him, does not make Jesus Jehovah God…. that name is the Most High Gods name ALONE not Jesus name….. You making Scriptures out to what they don't mean…..Peace Irene
Irene,
You missed the point. In the OT, Jehovah says that no one was with Him when He created, and then in the NT it clearly says that the Word WAS WITH GOD and that all was created through that Word that was WITH God.So, how can Jehovah be alone without anyone with Him and have someone with Him all at the same time unless Jehovah is the name of a compound unity?
You can't seem to explain this contradiction?
Kathi
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 19 2011,19:39) Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 18 2011,22:35) Quote Who did Jesus claim to be? I AM
Actually, he claimed to be the SON OF “I AM”.
Ok Mike,
Show us what verse tells you this, ya know, where He said that He was the Son of I AM.Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 16 2011,11:12) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 15 2011,19:30) Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 14 2011,21:37) Joshua of Jericho had the Hebrew version of 'Jesus' but he was a type of the Jesus who actually was the Messiah.
AND…………..?!?!?Kathi, find another way to prove Jesus is God, okay? “Jesus” was a VERY COMMON name in the time of Christ, Kathi. And one can't sensibly make the claim that since “Jehovah” is a part of this person's name, he IS Jehovah.
You might have other reasons for thinking Jesus is Jehovah, but this arguement is as weak as it comes. Best to drop this one before I start claiming that Elijah was Jehovah just because his name means “Jah is God”.
Only one of those who were/are named Jesus/Yehshua was given their name by God the Father and only one of them is our righteousness, Mike. Don't make light of that fact.Jesus means Jehovah our righteousness.
Jeremiah 23:6 In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely; and this is his name whereby he shall be called: Jehovah our righteousness.
Matt 1:20 But when he had considered this, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying, “Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary as your wife; for the Child who has been conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit. 21“She will bear a Son; and you shall call His name Jesus, for He will save His people from their sins.”
Kathi
Mike,
When you were trying to explain my thoughts you completely missed what they were. Here, you can read them again. Pay attention to what I have bolded for you.You didn't even make 'light' of the fact that I bolded…you completely ignored it.
Hi All
When Jesus prayed , who was he talking to ? who said 'forgive them for they know not what they do ? '
to whom was He speaking ? Why did Jesus instruct us to pray ” our Father ” ?
Have we taken the word of God in theroy only ? Our children can understand plainly that Jesus has a Father and He is His Son. Just because the Word of God says so. As one young person stated , ' why do people make Jesus as being a person who goes around talking to himself , and by using trickery to convince people that He is well pleased with Himself by using his voice coming down from heaven. ' May statement to the class was this ; Jesus is the Son of God and thats that. Yes, He has a Father because He said so. Then the class debated some as we do here on the forum. The class came to the conclusion that man's wisdom is foolishness to God. Yet they understood that trinity was not the most important fact but that saving souls was. They want jewels in their crown.Happyman,
Who are you referring to as saying that Jesus is a person who goes around talking to himself and using his voice to come down from heaven. That is not the trinity that teaches that.Kathi
Quote (thehappyman @ Sep. 21 2011,00:09) Hi All
When Jesus prayed , who was he talking to ? who said 'forgive them for they know not what they do ? '
to whom was He speaking ? Why did Jesus instruct us to pray ” our Father ” ?
Have we taken the word of God in theroy only ? Our children can understand plainly that Jesus has a Father and He is His Son. Just because the Word of God says so. As one young person stated , ' why do people make Jesus as being a person who goes around talking to himself , and by using trickery to convince people that He is well pleased with Himself by using his voice coming down from heaven. ' May statement to the class was this ; Jesus is the Son of God and thats that. Yes, He has a Father because He said so. Then the class debated some as we do here on the forum. The class came to the conclusion that man's wisdom is foolishness to God. Yet they understood that trinity was not the most important fact but that saving souls was. They want jewels in their crown.
Hi thehappyman! I understand that those children knew how to say “The our Father”, and realized that Jesus is the Son of God…I hope and pray also that they know that there is only ONE TRUE God and His name is Jehovah God alone…. Do they read the Bible? I would share these Scriptures with them, if they do …Psa 83:18 That [men] may know that thou, whose name alone [is] JEHOVAH, [art] the most high over all the earth.
Psa 68:4 Sing unto God, sing praises to his name: extol him that rideth upon the heavens by his name Jehovah, and rejoice before him.
Most Churches do believe in the trinity, and is their Church also teaching the trinity?
Peace Irene
Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 20 2011,16:45) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 19 2011,19:58) Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 19 2011,14:00) So barley,
I was wondering…could you say this:
“Before my grandfather was born, I AM?”didn't think so.
I don't think any of us existed before our grandfathers, Kathi. So we couldn't imply that before them, we had existed.Jesus DID exist before Abraham, so could therefore say that before him, I have existed.
Moot point.
Mike,
The 'I AM' could not have been 'I have existed' because it is written in the present tense, not the past tense. That is why it stands out…the 'I AM' doesn't quite flow in the natural way of speaking as is evidence by you wanting to make it past tense. That should tell you that the phrase is saying something different than what you'd expect.BTW, you might want to fill your friend, barley. in. Barley thinks he/she did exist before his/her grandfather.
You might want to read more carefully what I have written and more importantly the scriptures that I have referenced.Ephesians 1:4 I was chosen by God before the foundation of the world as were all believers in this age of grace.
Did I exist before I was born/conceived? No. But as far as God's wisdom and foreknowledge are concerned, God was able to chose me out way before I ever existed, even before the foundation of the world. So, as far as God's foreknowledge is concerned, He chose me without me even existing yet. He chose well, God is wise.
Was I just a figment of God's imagination before the foundation of the world? No, but in the sense of God's absolute foreknowledge, how could he choose someone who does not exist? Because of his absolute foreknowledge. that is how.
That is how Jesus could have glory with the Father before the foundation of the world.
God knew Jesus Christ would succeed. Genesis 3:15
Not because Jesus is God but because of God's wisdom, planning and foreknowledge. God knows how to plan ahead.
thus as I pointed out, if my grandfather was not a believer, then in the foreknowledge of God, I was chosen before my grandfather ever existed.
You know what this is too much scripture for you. This is too deep of thinking for you.
Go back to John 3:16 or something.
oatmeal
Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 19 2011,23:45) Mike,
The 'I AM' could not have been 'I have existed' because it is written in the present tense, not the past tense.
Just like in 14:9 Kathi? Where virtually EVERY translator renders it as “I have been” so it actually makes sense in English?Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 19 2011,23:53) Irene,
You missed the point. In the OT, Jehovah says that no one was with Him when He created, and then in the NT it clearly says that the Word WAS WITH GOD and that all was created through that Word that was WITH God.So, how can Jehovah be alone without anyone with Him and have someone with Him all at the same time unless Jehovah is the name of a compound unity?
You can't seem to explain this contradiction?
Kathi
Did Jehovah create Cain and Abel ALONE and BY HIMSELF, Kathi? Who was with him when He did that? Obviously no one, for God said so, right? Yet he still created Cain and Abel THROUGH Adam and Eve, didn't He?The one through whom God creates apparently doesn't need to be “with God” from His point of view.
Another moot point, Kathi.
Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 19 2011,23:55) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 19 2011,19:39) Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 18 2011,22:35) Quote Who did Jesus claim to be? I AM
Actually, he claimed to be the SON OF “I AM”.
Ok Mike,
Show us what verse tells you this, ya know, where He said that He was the Son of I AM.
Do you doubt that the One Jesus called his Father is the One that you call “I AM the Father”?Once again: Jehovah is the Most High God. (Gen 14:22) And Jesus is the SON OF the Most High God. (Mark 5:7) Do you accept these scriptures as truth?
Quote (thehappyman @ Sep. 20 2011,07:09) Our children can understand plainly that Jesus has a Father and He is His Son.
That is a great point Happyman! I once started a thread called “Like a child” that hit on this very point. Young children understand that there is God, and then there is His Son. They understand it until they are completely and systematically brainwashed by the leaders of their churches that teach the totally nonsensical notion that the Son OF God can BE the God he is the Son OF.“If you can't explain it to a six year old, you don't understand it yourself.” – Albert Einstein
No six year old would NATURALLY buy the trinity concept. It is something that has to be “washed” into their brains over a period of time. Why? Because it makes absolutely no sense to an intelligent child that God would be “a person who goes around talking to himself , and using trickery to convince people that He is well pleased with Himself by using his voice coming down from heaven.”
It seems that the children in your class hit the nail on the head.
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