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Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 15 2011,19:32) Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 14 2011,21:51) John 8:28 does not have a direct object after it and that causes it to stand out and be used differently than normal which is when a direct object is expected.
Kathi,Why not DIRECTLY address the points in my post at the top of this page and end this charade?
Mike,
Your substituting the name 'Jehovah' for the 'I AM' is not an equivalent substitution and does not fit. It would not fit in Exodus 3:14 either, see here…God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM”; and He said, “Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, 'I AM has sent me to you.'”
Now with your substitution of Jehovah for 'I AM'…
God said to Moses, Jehovah who Jehovah; and He said, Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, Jehovah has sent me to you.
Jehovah who Jehovah???
Doesn't sound right there now does it Mike? So that argument is null and void.Kathi
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 15 2011,19:30) Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 14 2011,21:37) Joshua of Jericho had the Hebrew version of 'Jesus' but he was a type of the Jesus who actually was the Messiah.
AND…………..?!?!?Kathi, find another way to prove Jesus is God, okay? “Jesus” was a VERY COMMON name in the time of Christ, Kathi. And one can't sensibly make the claim that since “Jehovah” is a part of this person's name, he IS Jehovah.
You might have other reasons for thinking Jesus is Jehovah, but this arguement is as weak as it comes. Best to drop this one before I start claiming that Elijah was Jehovah just because his name means “Jah is God”.
Only one of those who were/are named Jesus/Yehshua was given their name by God the Father and only one of them is our righteousness, Mike. Don't make light of that fact.Jesus means Jehovah our righteousness.
Jeremiah 23:6 In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely; and this is his name whereby he shall be called: Jehovah our righteousness.
Matt 1:20 But when he had considered this, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying, “Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary as your wife; for the Child who has been conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit. 21“She will bear a Son; and you shall call His name Jesus, for He will save His people from their sins.”
Kathi
Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 16 2011,09:14) Mike,
Your substituting the name 'Jehovah' for the 'I AM' is not an equivalent substitution and does not fit. It would not fit in Exodus 3:14 either, see here…God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM”; and He said, “Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, 'I AM has sent me to you.'”
Now with your substitution of Jehovah for 'I AM'…
God said to Moses, Jehovah who Jehovah; and He said, Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, Jehovah has sent me to you.
Jehovah who Jehovah???
Doesn't sound right there now does it Mike? So that argument is null and void.Kathi
Okay Kathi,I'm tired of beating around the bush here. I'm going to give you two options, and you tell me which one is correct.
1. YHWH means “I AM WHO I AM”. If this is correct, then YHWH ALWAYS means “I AM WHO I AM”. So for Jesus to say only “I am” would not be the same as Jesus saying “I AM WHO I AM”. And even if it did, it would simply be Jesus saying, “before Abraham existed, YHWH”. WHAT WOULD THAT MEAN? Because, LIKE I KEEP REPEATING TO NO AVAIL, Jesus did NOT say, “before Abraham existed I WAS YHWH”, did he?
2. YHWH doesn't mean “I AM WHO I AM”, but only “I AM”. If that was the case, the same thing would apply, because Jesus would STILL be saying, “before Abraham existed, YHWH”. And I would STILL ask: WHAT DOES THAT MEAN? Because he would STILL not be saying, “before Abraham existed, I WAS YHWH”.
Kathi, why don't YOU tell ME what English words you would like to mean YHWH. Pick any English words you want to signify God's Divine Name, and it will STILL end up with Jesus saying, “before Abraham existed, YHWH”. It will NEVER end up with Jesus saying, “before Abraham existed, I WAS YHWH”.
Can you not understand this SIMPLE truth of the matter?
I don't know what point you are trying to make here, because any words you use, it still doesn't end up with Jesus saying HE WAS “I Am” or “I Will Be” or “I Shall Prove to Be”, does it?
So if “I am” in 8:58 signifies God's Divine Name, then Jesus was merely mentioning that Name and NOT saying he was the one who had that Name. So like I keep saying, it would amount to Jesus saying, “before Abraham existed, JEHOVAH!”. And THAT, my friend, would be a senseless statement for Jesus to make.
Now, are you about done playing around? Are you ready to show me the first scripture from the whole gospel of John where Jesus himself claimed to be God or equal to Him?
mike
Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 16 2011,10:12) Only one of those who were/are named Jesus/Yehshua was given their name by God the Father and only one of them is our righteousness, Mike. Don't make light of that fact.
Yes Kathi,Out of all of the Jesuses in the world, Jesus the Christ of God was the greatest and most important. How does an intelligent person jump from the Christ OF God being the greatest of all Jesuses to him being the God he is the Christ OF?
Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 16 2011,10:12) Jesus means Jehovah our righteousness.
Jesus means “Jehovah IS our Righteousness”. It NEVER means that the person who has that name IS the Jehovah that is our Righteousness.Kathi, address the point of the thread, please. What DIRECT QUOTES from Jesus prove that he claimed to BE God?
Who did Jesus claim to be?
He claimed to be the son of God and the Messiah.It is amazing that this should even be contested among believers, but some men in the past who came from among us have spread false doctrine that make their followers imagine all kinds of vain things about who and what Jesus is.
This kind of activity is especially popular among those who hold their intellect in high esteem. But as it is written, God will make folly of the wisdom of the self-proclaimed wise.
Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 17 2011,02:14) Mike,
Your substituting the name 'Jehovah' for the 'I AM' is not an equivalent substitution and does not fit. It would not fit in Exodus 3:14 either, see here…God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM”; and He said, “Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, 'I AM has sent me to you.'”
Now with your substitution of Jehovah for 'I AM'…
God said to Moses, Jehovah who Jehovah; and He said, Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, Jehovah has sent me to you.
Jehovah who Jehovah???
Doesn't sound right there now does it Mike? So that argument is null and void.Kathi
If Jehovah says that he is I AM, and we assume that I AM is Jehovah, then saying Jehovah is I AM, should equate to saying Jehovah is Jehovah and I AM is I AM.If I am the president, and the president is me, then surely it is correct to say that I am I and the president is the president.
Not sure why someone would want to say that, but it would be true nevertheless.
Quote (t8 @ Sep. 18 2011,03:39) Not sure why someone would want to say that, but it would be true nevertheless. 
t8,
Can you see the point I'm trying to make to Kathi that if “I AM” is the Name of God, then even in the Trinitarian's imagination, Jesus saying the words “I am” in John 8:58 would only amount to Jesus SAYING GOD'S NAME. It would never amount to Jesus saying HE IS the one to whom that name belongs, would it?
He would be saying, “before Abraham, YAHWEH!”, not, “before Abraham, I WAS YAHWEH!”, right?
Actually, if you feel the need to substitute I AM for the Hebrew word, you would use 'eh yeh. His name is 'eh yeh according to Exodus 3:14.
That would look like this:
John 8:28 So Jesus told them, “When you have lifted up the Son of Man, then you will know that 'eh yeh, and that I do nothing on my own authority. Instead, I speak only what the Father has taught me.But what is the point of switching out the English words for the Hebrew??? Is that all you got?
Quote (t8 @ Sep. 18 2011,21:34) This kind of activity is especially popular among those who hold their intellect in high esteem. But as it is written, God will make folly of the wisdom of the self-proclaimed wise.
Way to go. And it happens I'v seen it. People claiming that having a good eductaion and being able to present perfect posts with great intellect is proof of something. But is this true? I think not at all. Actually far from it. What did Jesus say we needed to know him?Matthew 19 -13
Then little children were brought to Jesus for him to place his hands on them and pray for them. But the disciples rebuked those who brought them.Jesus said, “Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these.” When he had placed his hands on them, he went on from there.
Many rely too heavily on intellect in their approach to belief. But God gives to all a measure of gifts and talents. To those without God, their gifts are only natural gifts. To those with God, the gifts are both natural and spiritual. It's amazing how often the intellect can seem to get in the way. God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise. God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong.
Jesus said to Nicodemus “You are Israel’s teacher,” “and do you not understand these things?“
Yet to the Samaritan woman at the well, Jesus said to her. “Believe me, woman, a time is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem. You Samaritans worship what you do not know; we worship what we do know, for salvation is from the Jews. Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth.”
The woman said, “I know that Messiah” (called Christ) “is coming. When he comes, he will explain everything to us.”Then Jesus declared, “I who speak to you am he.”
See the simple truth she knew. Jesus did something He rarely – if ever did. He told her that He was the Messiah. What does she do? She leaves her water jar, goes back to the town and says to the people, “Come, see a man who told me everything I ever did. Could this be the Christ?” They came out of the town and made their way toward him.
She left her water jar. The most important thing in her life right then. Water jars would not have been cheap to the average person. But she left it. “Could this be the Christ?” does not speak doubt.
Sadly, intellect gets in the way with people. People want to figure out God. People want a God they build with their own intellect to suit them.
It says in Romans 10:17 that “Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of Christ”
God said through Isaiah, chapter 55“For my thoughts are not your thoughts,
neither are your ways my ways,”
declares the LORD.
“As the heavens are higher than the earth,
so are my ways higher than your ways
and my thoughts than your thoughts.You don’t need intellect to follow Jesus. You just need to love the Lord with all your heart, mind, and soul, and love your neighbor as yourself.
See ya.
Wrong Lightenup. He never claimed to be the I AM of the Old Testament. He never blasphemed.
Show me one scripture and I will show you why you are reading it wrongly.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 19 2011,13:36) t8, Can you see the point I'm trying to make to Kathi that if “I AM” is the Name of God, then even in the Trinitarian's imagination, Jesus saying the words “I am” in John 8:58 would only amount to Jesus SAYING GOD'S NAME. It would never amount to Jesus saying HE IS the one to whom that name belongs, would it?
He would be saying, “before Abraham, YAHWEH!”, not, “before Abraham, I WAS YAHWEH!”, right?
Yeah point taken.Of course Jesus was answering the question in the same way that anyone would answer the question.
Are you Jesus of Nazareth (Notice they didn't say are you YHWH).
Answer I am (ego eimi)Are you Peter
I am (ego eimi)Are you Mike
I am (ego eimi)Are you T8
I am (ego eimi)Anyone who claims that Jesus is claiming to be the I AM of the Old Testament is making a false claim. This false claim is easily exposed. There are a number of ways you can show this teaching as false.
We need to also remember that “I AM” in the Old Testament is a different set of words from different languages to the New Testament instances. It would be like saying that “I am” in English is equating one with God for it is the word used by God in Hebrew. That is simply not true. Many say “I am” in the New Testament just as they say those words today without meaning they are God.
If you were watching Mickey Mouse on the Disney channel and Goofy said to Mickey, “are you Mickey Mouse”, am I to assume then that Mickey Mouse is claiming to be God if he answers, “I am”? Of course not. He is simply identifying himself as Mickey Mouse.
The I am false doctrine is easily exposed.
So Jesus told them, “When you have lifted up the Son of Man, then you will know that I AM, and that I do nothing on my own authority. Instead, I speak only what the Father has taught me.
Summing Himself up as I AM is brilliant. It is such a simple, yet profound statement. It is such an undefined and non-limiting name that Jesus is relating Himself to.
No need to use intellect to dissect the words. Just believe…He IS! He always was and always will be, eternal in His past and future.
You're doing a great job in this thread Kathi. I agree with you, many times Yeshua applied the “I AM” title to Himself and the significance was not lost on his listeners (e.g. John 8:59). The important point, which seems to escape t8 every time, is when He applies “ego eimi” to Himself it is unpredicated.
So Jesus said, “When you lift up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am He, and I do nothing on My own initiative, but I speak these things as the Father taught Me. (NASB)
The translators of some of the more popular versions added the italicised “He” in order to make it more palatable in English. They shouldn't have, it strips the phrase of all it's intended impact. The Youngs literal version and Wickliffe do a better job.
Jesus, therefore, said to them, `When ye may lift up the Son of Man then ye will know that I am [he][; and of myself I do nothing, but according as my Father did teach me, these things I speak, (Youngs)
Therefore Jesus said to them, When ye have araised man's Son, then ye shall know, that I am, and of myself I do nothing; but as my Father taught me, I speak these things. (Wickliffe)
Kathi – a great article for your edification
http://vintage.aomin.org/EGO.html
The I Am argument is easily refuted on many fronts.
Let's go with the I AM theory for a moment. Now watch as it falls apart.
Why would false witnesses be sought in Jesus trial if they had true witnesses in attendance? The arresting officers heard Jesus say “Ego eimi.” They could have stoned him right there in the garden for blasphemy, but they didn't. They could have reported this blasphemy to the council, but they didn't. Why not? Because it wasn't blasphemy, nor was it a stone-able offense. Jesus was merely identifying himself as Jesus of Nazareth.
Wake up people.
Jesus used the phrase “ego eimi” at least twenty times and yet, in only one instance did the Jews seek to stone him (John 8:58). Jesus said, “I am the bread of life” to a large crowd, in John.6:35-48, yet no one opposed him. In verse 41, the Jews murmured because he said, “I am (ego eimi) the bread which came down from heaven.” But in verse 42, the Jews questioned only the phrase, “I came down from heaven” and ignored “ego eimi.” The same is true of verses 51 & 52.
I am (ego eimi) was an everyday phrase that many spoke in scripture. Jesus, Peter, the Angel Gabriel, and the blind man whose sight was restored all said ego eimi.
Today, we also say I am. You say it, I say it, and everyone says it. You probably utter these words every day. And never once has anyone thought you were claiming to the I AM of the Old Testament.
I know this will not stop proponents of the Trinity, Quadrintiy, Quininity, and Binity because they are all desperate to prove that they are right and will go right on believing such lies so they can feel good about their own pride in their understanding.
Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 04 2011,14:05) Mike,
I just showed you.John 8:24 That is why I told you that you will die in your sins, for unless you believe that I AM, you will die in your sins.”
“I AM” needs to be on your list
That is what you are asking for, one verse that shows His equality to God.
Kathi
Kathi,“I am” ?
I am what?
Of course everyone present that heard Jesus say “I am” would not deny that he was present right there in front of them.
What would be the point of saying “I am”
Even I can say “I am” How do you know who “I am”?
Who is “I am”?
Since I have used the personal pronoun “I” and the first person singular of the verb “to be” just like Jesus Christ did, then “I am ” whatever JC meant when he said, “I am”
Am I barley? I am.
Does that reply make me God?
Just because the KJV translates the Hebrew in Exodus, “I am”
does that make all persons who use the words, “I am” God himself?
You trinitarians sure know how to grasp at straws, when you could simply let the scripture define its own terms.
John 8:24-25
24I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.
25Then said they unto him, Who art thou? And Jesus saith unto them, Even the same that I said unto you from the beginning.
In verse 25 Jesus Christ answers the logical question, “Who art thou?”
They want to know what JC meant by his statement, ” for if ye believe not that I am he,”
or if you prefer leaving out the word, “he” as some do.
the question “Who art thou?” is still answered by Jesus Christ by the same reply.
“And Jesus saith unto them, Even the same that I said unto you from the beginning.”
Beginning of what? Creation? No, Jesus Christ had a gennesis as described in Matthew 1:18
Jesus Christ was born.
God did not become flesh, the word became flesh.
What word? Genesis 3:15 and all the rest of God's word that foretold of the coming Messiah.
God's word, his message was fleshed out.
It became flesh.
Anyone's word is only as good as the character of the person giving his word.
God's word is as good as God himself. For God's word is God. He did not consult a higher power to come up with His word. God originated His word from himself. It is His expression of himself. God is holy and God is spirit.
Is it any surprise that God adds another name to the list of names he calls himself and reveals yet another name, The Holy Spirit?
God's word given to holy men of God finally became flesh.
God knew Adam and Eve would sin, he had a plan in place already. His word describes it.
barley
Quote (t8 @ Sep. 19 2011,16:05) The I am false doctrine is easily exposed.
Hi T8,I AM is the false god of religion.
That false doctrine is easily exposed, because 'I AM' cannot be translated into Hebrew to mean God, YHVH,
or anything for that matter, HEBREW HAS NO SUCH CONSTRUCT! (Link) אֶהְיֶה means “I WILL” not 'I AM'!Mark 13:6 For many shall come in my name, saying, I AM; and shall deceive many.
Your brother
in Christ, Jesus.
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
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