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Kathi,
In your translation, Jesus is saying, “Before Abraham was born, JEHOVAH!”. What does that mean, Kathi? JEHOVAH did WHAT? JEHOVAH was WHAT?
It's like me saying, “Before my son was born, MIKE!” It makes no sense at all. Like I said, there need to be MORE words. I need to say, “Before my son was born, I WAS Mike” or something like that.
Oh, and as far as the “I AM” translation, see John 14:9. Compare how many scholars logically translate that scripture as “I have been” to the number of those who translate it as “I am”.
Kathi, what do you think that tells us? Does it tell us what Jason BeDuhn said? Does it show that there are many Greek language idioms that the English scholars take liberties with to make the sentence more understandable in English? They do it all the time, just not in John 8:58. This is from Jason:
“The majority of translations recognize these idiomatic uses of ‘I am’, and properly integrate the words into the context of the passages where they appear. Yet when it comes to 8:58, they suddenly forget how to translate. All the translations except the LB and NWT also ignore the true relation between the verbs of the sentence and produce a sentence that makes no sense in English. These changes in the meaning of the Greek and in the normal procedure for translation point to a bias that has interfered with the work of the translators. No one listening to Jesus, and no one reading John in his own time would have picked up on a divine self-identification in the mere expression ‘I am’, which, if you think about it, is just about the most common pronoun-verb combination in any language.”
This is what has happened Kathi. For example, in John 14:9, only Young and Darby have “I am”, while every other translation listed on Biblos.com has “I HAVE BEEN”. This is the same situation as in John 8:58, where it is ABUNDANTLY CLEAR from the context that Jesus is saying he existed before Abraham existed. But where are all those “smart” scholars from 14:9 when it comes to 8:58? Oh, that's right. They have a doctrine to maintain. And since they already know going into it that this doctrine of theirs is not supported by any scripture, they have to take liberties with a sensible translation and try to insert teachings of their doctrine into the inspired scriptures. About this tactic, Jason says: “To me, it expresses a lack of courage, a fear that the Bible does not back up their ‘truth’ enough.”
But all of this debate is unnecessary, Kathi. All you really need to do is tell me what this means:
“….unless you believe that JEHOVAH, you will die in your sins.”
Can you do that?
mike
Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 11 2011,15:22) Mike,
you said:Quote It is your assertion that when Jesus utters the most common pronoun-verb combination in any language, he is secretly telling us he is Jehovah God, right? You are taking the “I AM” to mean “Jehovah”, right? Let's spell it out your way:
John 8:24
That is why I told you that you will die in your sins, for unless you believe that JEHOVAH, you will die in your sins.”And here's John 8:58,
“I tell you the truth,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, JEHOVAH!”It doesn't make sense because you are sticking a Hebrew proper name in place of an English translation of a different Hebrew word, although the two are related. Strong's #1961 'eh-yeh (I am) is not Strong's 3068 (YHVH). #3068 is the proper name FROM #1961.
Mike,
It appears by your last comment that you did not read this. Jehovah and I AM of Exodus 3:14 are different Hebrew words.Quote “….unless you believe that JEHOVAH, you will die in your sins.” Just keep the I AM in there as properly translated according to the Greek and you will see that it lines up with the I AM of the OT in Exodus 3:14, indicating an eternal existence. If you want to substitute something with the name Jehovah, you can do this:
John 8:28 So Jehovah our Righteousness said, “When you lift up the Son of Man, then you will know that I AM, and I do nothing on My own initiative, but I speak these things as Jehovah, the Father taught Me.
Kathi
……………………………………………………………………..To All!
Psa 83:18 That [men] may know that thou, whose name alone [is] JEHOVAH, [art] the most high over all the earth.
Jehovah's name ALONEPsa 68:4 Sing unto God, sing praises to his name: extol him that rideth upon the heavens by his name Jehovah, and rejoice before him.
His name not their names, rejoice before Him, and not THEIR NAMES….
Exd 6:2 ¶ And God spake unto Moses, and said unto him, I [am] the LORD:
Exd 6:3 And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, by [the name of] God Almighty, but by my name JEHOVAH was I not known to them.
Here God speaks to Moses telling Him, that by MY NAME JEHOVAH
, MY NAME AND NOT THEIR NAMES…
There is no such doctrine of the Unity of Jehovah…. Jehovah is the LORDS name ALONEJesus also said this
Jhn 4:23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
Jhn 4:24 God [is] a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship [him] in spirit and in truth.
Peace Irene
Hi all :
Then who is Jehovah ? and who is Jesus? In the ex. man did not know the name Jehovah ? what did they know him by ,( God) , (I am ), In Gen 1 stated it well for me , (God) . I do have unity with our Father God , named Jehovah and also named many other names as well. I also have unity with His son Jesus and Jahovah's Spirit which in called the Holy Ghost or Holy Spirit.Happyman,
Jehovah is the God of gods and the Lord of lords. For us we have one God, the Father and one Lord, Jesus Christ.Jehovah in the fullest sense is the unity of the Father and Son and their Spirit
Each member of this unity is also called Jehovah, one as the Father and one as the Son(Jehovah our Righteousness).
Context will help.Do you believe in the deity of the Son, Happyman?
Blessings,
KathiQuote (thehappyman @ Sep. 13 2011,06:45) Hi all :
Then who is Jehovah ? and who is Jesus? In the ex. man did not know the name Jehovah ? what did they know him by ,( God) , (I am ), In Gen 1 stated it well for me , (God) . I do have unity with our Father God , named Jehovah and also named many other names as well. I also have unity with His son Jesus and Jahovah's Spirit which in called the Holy Ghost or Holy Spirit.
Hi! like it says in the Scripture, Jehovah is Gods name and His ALONE, Jesus is called Jesus the Son of Jehovah God. The Son is not called Jehovah….not according to those Scriptures I posted….
Peace to you IreneQuote (Lightenup @ Sep. 11 2011,22:08) Mike,
It appears by your last comment that you did not read this. Jehovah and I AM of Exodus 3:14 are different Hebrew words.
I read it. I just don't know what you're trying to tell me with it.Isn't it your contention that the Name God gave to Moses equals the words “I AM”? And that Jesus was calling himself by that name in 8:24 and 8:58?
Quote (thehappyman @ Sep. 12 2011,13:45) I do have unity with our Father God , named Jehovah and also named many other names as well. I also have unity with His son Jesus………….
Hi Happyman,I think Kathi is trying to get you to have unity with, not only Jehovah the Father, but her imaginary friend Jehovah the Son also.
I am like you. I have a relationship with Jehovah the Father, and JESUS the Son.
peace,
mikeQuote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 12 2011,18:49) Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 11 2011,22:08) Mike,
It appears by your last comment that you did not read this. Jehovah and I AM of Exodus 3:14 are different Hebrew words.
I read it. I just don't know what you're trying to tell me with it.Isn't it your contention that the Name God gave to Moses equals the words “I AM”? And that Jesus was calling himself by that name in 8:24 and 8:58?
Yes Mike, the name that God gave Moses was “I AM” and that is the name that Jesus reveals Himself as in the NT. If you want to make substitutions, often Lord in the NT can be substituted with Jehovah, or YHVH, but in a few verses, I AM should only be I AM.Kathi
Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 12 2011,18:03) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 12 2011,18:49) Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 11 2011,22:08) Mike,
It appears by your last comment that you did not read this. Jehovah and I AM of Exodus 3:14 are different Hebrew words.
I read it. I just don't know what you're trying to tell me with it.Isn't it your contention that the Name God gave to Moses equals the words “I AM”? And that Jesus was calling himself by that name in 8:24 and 8:58?
Yes Mike, the name that God gave Moses was “I AM” and that is the name that Jesus reveals Himself as in the NT. If you want to make substitutions, often Lord in the NT can be substituted with Jehovah, or YHVH, but in a few verses, I AM should only be I AM.Kathi
Okay then Kathi,I was right that your post didn't address my post. Because if Jesus saying “I AM” was supposed to be Jesus calling himself “Jehovah”, there still needs to be more words in the sentence.
John 8:24
That is why I told you that you will die in your sins, for unless you believe that JEHOVAH, you will die in your sins.”And here's John 8:58,
“I tell you the truth,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, JEHOVAH!”Can't you see that for Jesus to be saying HE IS or WAS Jehovah, he would have to add those words to his sentence?
The way the sentences are now, they beg the question: WHAT ABOUT Jehovah?
Kathi, even giving you the benefit of the doubt that YHWH means “I AM”, you still can't logically make the words “I AM” in those scriptures mean that Jesus was saying I AM “I AM”, or I WAS “I AM”.
Let this NON-point go and post me a REAL scripture from the WHOLE gospel of John where Jesus CLEARLY and DIRECTLY claimed to be God Almighty, or equal to Him. (Oh, and it has to be a LOGICAL claim that you make – not like this “I AM” nonsense, okay?)
mike
Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 12 2011,17:59) And what does the name 'Jesus' mean…Jehovah our Righteousness.
Well, “Jesus” is the English way to say “Iesous”.And “Iesous” is the Greek way to say “Joshua”.
And “Joshua” is the Hebrew way to say “Jehovah is our Righteousness”.
Now, is EVERYONE in the scriptures with the name Jesus or Joshua actually God Almighty, Kathi? Or is it just this one “Jehovah is our Righteousness” that also happens to be God Almighty Himself?
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 05 2011,03:24) Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 03 2011,23:32) Thanks Paul! Glory to God, Paul's back
Which ONE of your TWO Almighty Gods are you giving the glory to this time, Kathi? I wonder if Paul realizes that you openly acknowledge your belief in and worship of TWO completely separate Almighty Gods, Kathi.I also wonder if, after learning about this, he will continue to support you.
My guess is he will support anyone who opposes us when it suits.Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 04 2011,02:01) John 8:24 is mistranslated. Earlier manuscripts do not have the added words. You knew that probably though didn't you. John 8:24 That is why I told you that you will die in your sins, for unless you believe that I AM, you will die in your sins.”
You are interested in truth, right? Choose newer translations over the KJV when you see that they have more words than the other translations. Check the Greek. It doesn't say 'I am He,' either. It just says “I AM.”
Kathi
Kathi, if I asked you if you were Kathi, you would likely answer, “I am”. In scripture many answer this way including: In Luke 1:19, the angel Gabriel said, “Ego eimi Gabriel.” In John 9:9, the blind man whose sight was restored by Jesus said, “Ego eimi.” In Acts 10:21, Peter said, “Behold, ego eimi (I am) he whom ye seek.”Obviously, the mere use of “ego eimi” does not equate one to the “I Am” of Exodus 3:14 just as you saying “I am” equates you with being YHWH.
You are clutching at straws Kathi just like the Trinitarians. And the straw you are clutching at is also a short straw and there is a flame burning at one end.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 12 2011,20:01) Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 12 2011,17:59) And what does the name 'Jesus' mean…Jehovah our Righteousness.
Well, “Jesus” is the English way to say “Iesous”.And “Iesous” is the Greek way to say “Joshua”.
And “Joshua” is the Hebrew way to say “Jehovah is our Righteousness”.
Now, is EVERYONE in the scriptures with the name Jesus or Joshua actually God Almighty, Kathi? Or is it just this one “Jehovah is our Righteousness” that also happens to be God Almighty Himself?
Mike,
You know that everyone with the same name as “Mike” is not you. Many have the name 'Jesus' but there is only one person that is the Jesus that is the only begotten Son who was with God, the Father in the beginning and who IS our righteousness and so comes by that name as the true Jehovah our righteousness. Joshua of Jericho had the Hebrew version of 'Jesus' but he was a type of the Jesus who actually was the Messiah.This Jehovah, as in 'Jehovah our righteousness' is the Almighty Son, not the Almighty Father.
Kathi
Quote (t8 @ Sep. 12 2011,23:09) Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 04 2011,02:01) John 8:24 is mistranslated. Earlier manuscripts do not have the added words. You knew that probably though didn't you. John 8:24 That is why I told you that you will die in your sins, for unless you believe that I AM, you will die in your sins.”
You are interested in truth, right? Choose newer translations over the KJV when you see that they have more words than the other translations. Check the Greek. It doesn't say 'I am He,' either. It just says “I AM.”
Kathi
Kathi, if I asked you if you were Kathi, you would likely answer, “I am”. In scripture many answer this way including: In Luke 1:19, the angel Gabriel said, “Ego eimi Gabriel.” In John 9:9, the blind man whose sight was restored by Jesus said, “Ego eimi.” In Acts 10:21, Peter said, “Behold, ego eimi (I am) he whom ye seek.”Obviously, the mere use of “ego eimi” does not equate one to the “I Am” of Exodus 3:14 just as you saying “I am” equates you with being YHWH.
You are clutching at straws Kathi just like the Trinitarians. And the straw you are clutching at is also a short straw and there is a flame burning at one end.
t8,
You compare what Jesus said to verses that have ego eimi plus a direct object. John 8:28 does not have a direct object after it and that causes it to stand out and be used differently than normal which is when a direct object is expected.Kathi
Kathi! Then why does it say Jehovah is God the Most Hogh God ALONE in \
Psa 83:18 that they may know that you alone, whose name is the LORD, are the Most High over all the earth.
The Bible does not contradict itself. Mike and t8 are right…..Irene
Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 14 2011,21:37) Joshua of Jericho had the Hebrew version of 'Jesus' but he was a type of the Jesus who actually was the Messiah.
AND…………..?!?!?Kathi, find another way to prove Jesus is God, okay? “Jesus” was a VERY COMMON name in the time of Christ, Kathi. And one can't sensibly make the claim that since “Jehovah” is a part of this person's name, he IS Jehovah.
You might have other reasons for thinking Jesus is Jehovah, but this arguement is as weak as it comes. Best to drop this one before I start claiming that Elijah was Jehovah just because his name means “Jah is God”.
Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 14 2011,21:51) John 8:28 does not have a direct object after it and that causes it to stand out and be used differently than normal which is when a direct object is expected.
Kathi,Why not DIRECTLY address the points in my post at the top of this page and end this charade?
Quote (Pastry @ Sep. 15 2011,03:07) Kathi! Then why does it say Jehovah is God the Most Hogh God ALONE in \ Psa 83:18 that they may know that you alone, whose name is the LORD, are the Most High over all the earth.
The Bible does not contradict itself. Mike and t8 are right…..Irene
Irene,Look at this verse:
Isaiah 44:24 Thus said Jehovah, thy redeemer, And thy framer from the womb: 'I am Jehovah, doing all things, Stretching out the heavens by Myself, Spreading out the earth — who is with Me?Now look at these verses:
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was in the beginning with God. 3All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being. 4In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men.So, Irene, if Jehovah in Isaiah 44:24 is just one person, alone making all things, why does John 1 tell us that the Word was with God and all things came into being through Him-the Word?
And there are many more verses that tell us about the Son's involvement with creation. Col 1, Heb 1, 1 Cor 8:6.
Irene, please answer this question:
If Jehovah is only one person, and not a compound unity, who was alone and created all things alone, how is it that the Son was with Him and through the Son all things came into being?The Bible does not contradict itself
Kathi
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