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Understanding John 3:10-21
Quote John 3(Young’s Literal Translation) 10Jesus answered and said to him, `Thou art the teacher of Israel — and these things thou dost not know!
11`Verily, verily, I say to thee — What we have known we speak, and what we have seen we testify, and our testimony ye do not receive;
12if the earthly things I said to you, and ye do not believe, how, if I shall say to you the heavenly things, will ye believe?
13and no one hath gone up to the heaven, except he who out of the heaven came down — the Son of Man who is in the heaven.
14`And as Moses did lift up the serpent in the wilderness, so it behoveth the Son of Man to be lifted up,
15that every one who is believing in him may not perish, but may have life age-during,
16for God did so love the world, that His Son — the only begotten — He gave, that every one who is believing in him may not perish, but may have life age-during.
17For God did not send His Son to the world that he may judge the world, but that the world may be saved through him;
18he who is believing in him is not judged, but he who is not believing hath been judged already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
19`And this is the judgment, that the light hath come to the world, and men did love the darkness rather than the light, for their works were evil;
20for every one who is doing wicked things hateth the light, and doth not come unto the light, that his works may not be detected;
21but he who is doing the truth doth come to the light, that his works may be manifested, that in God they are having been wrought.'How do you reach your understanding about this scripture and what is your understanding?
To all,
Here are some scriptures I found useful for reaching my understanding of John 3:10-21.
Quote
John 1 (Young's Literal Translation)1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God;
2this one was in the beginning with God;
3all things through him did happen, and without him happened not even one thing that hath happened.
4In him was life, and the life was the light of men,
5and the light in the darkness did shine, and the darkness did not perceive it.
6There came a man — having been sent from God — whose name [is] John,
7this one came for testimony, that he might testify about the Light, that all might believe through him;
8that one was not the Light, but — that he might testify about the Light.
9He was the true Light, which doth enlighten every man, coming to the world;
10in the world he was, and the world through him was made, and the world did not know him:
11to his own things he came, and his own people did not receive him;
12but as many as did receive him to them he gave authority to become sons of God — to those believing in his name,
13who — not of blood nor of a will of flesh, nor of a will of man but — of God were begotten.
14And the Word became flesh, and did tabernacle among us, and we beheld his glory, glory as of an only begotten of a father, full of grace and truth.
15John doth testify concerning him, and hath cried, saying, `This was he of whom I said, He who after me is coming, hath come before me, for he was before me;'
16and out of his fulness did we all receive, and grace over-against grace;
17for the law through Moses was given, the grace and the truth through Jesus Christ did come;
18God no one hath ever seen; the only begotten Son, who is on the bosom of the Father — he did declare1 John 2:14 (Young's Literal Translation)
14I did write to you, fathers, because ye have known him who [is] from the beginning; I did write to you, young men, because ye are strong, and the word of God in you doth remain, and ye have overcome the evil.
Romans 8:9 (Young's Literal Translation)
9And ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God doth dwell in you; and if any one hath not the Spirit of Christ — this one is not His;
Romans 8:11 (Young's Literal Translation)
11and if the Spirit of Him who did raise up Jesus out of the dead doth dwell in you, He who did raise up the Christ out of the dead shall quicken also your dying bodies, through His Spirit dwelling in you.
1 John 2:10 (Young's Literal Translation)
10he who is loving his brother, in the light he doth remain, and a stumbling-block in him there is not;
1 Timothy 6 (Young's Literal Translation)
13I charge thee, before God, who is making all things alive, and of Christ Jesus, who did testify before Pontius Pilate the right profession,
14that thou keep the command unspotted, unblameable, till the manifestation of our Lord Jesus Christ,
15which in His own times He shall shew — the blessed and only potentate, the King of the kings and Lord of the lords,
16who only is having immortality, dwelling in light unapproachable, whom no one of men did see, nor is able to see, to whom [is] honour and might age-during! Amen.1 Corinthians 2 (Young's Literal Translation)
6And wisdom we speak among the perfect, and wisdom not of this age, nor of the rulers of this age — of those becoming useless,
7but we speak the hidden wisdom of God in a secret, that God foreordained before the ages to our glory,
8which no one of the rulers of this age did know, for if they had known, the Lord of the glory they would not have crucified;
9but, according as it hath been written, `What eye did not see, and ear did not hear, and upon the heart of man came not up, what God did prepare for those loving Him –'
10but to us did God reveal [them] through His Spirit, for the Spirit all things doth search, even the depths of God,
11for who of men hath known the things of the man, except the spirit of the man that [is] in him? so also the things of God no one hath known, except the Spirit of God.
12And we the spirit of the world did not receive, but the Spirit that [is] of God, that we may know the things conferred by God on us,
13which things also we speak, not in words taught by human wisdom, but in those taught by the Holy Spirit, with spiritual things spiritual things comparing,
14and the natural man doth not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for to him they are foolishness, and he is not able to know [them], because spiritually they are discerned;To all,
Looking at John 3:10-13 it seems clear Jesus is speaking of the Word, spoken of in John 1:1-18, that was with the Elohim and was elohima in the beginning as the Word came down and united with the human Jesus. The same elohim that came down is still in heaven and will return to heaven in the flesh of Jesus.
Quote (kerwin @ April 24 2011,02:01) To all, Looking at John 3:10-13 it seems clear Jesus is speaking of the Word, spoken of in John 1:1-18, that was with the Elohim and was elohima in the beginning as the Word came down and united with the human Jesus. The same elohim that came down is still in heaven and will return to heaven in the flesh of Jesus.
Kerwinyou right ,but what belongs to earth does not go to heaven,so Jesus could not have taken his flesh body with him
because flesh is from the earth.so it is his being soul as a spirit that went up to God ,Jesus became invisible to those who looked up at is ascend.
Pierre
Kerwin,
This is the inter-discussion I have been having with Mikeboll.My take on it starts with separating the time-line for the references made.
The verses say that he who believes in the name of the begotten Son of God will be saved.
But Shen does Scriptures tell us that Jesus was Begotten?
Does Hebrews not tell us, and Romans, that it was AFTER HE WAS RAISED UP (Which is the meaning of BEGOTTEN).So far, the skeptics fir this reading cannot reconcile the order and flow of the verses but simply to to see WORDS instead of SENTENCES, let alone MEANING.
They are Syntactic readers and ignore Symantics. Romans 1:4 clearly states that Jesus was Begotten to the Father WITH POWER. the skeptics choke on this and quickly point out that it says 'With power' as if it devalues the meaning of the verse. If it were upto them they would remove those words that so 'powerfully' makes a mockery of their claim!
The verses cannot be read in a linear fashion because they were written AFTER Jesus was risen and therefore makes reference to Jesus' CURRENT STATUS as opposed to his THEN STATUS – hence (Although not Scriptural agreed) there us reference to the 'Man who is in Heaven'.
That verse simply is not syntactically correct but is Semantically correct!!Yet, our Skeptics do not comment on the anomaly?
Nor on an earlier reference where Jesus says that 'God SENT JESUS' – well, his name was not 'Jesus' when he was sent…(And his name SHALL be called 'Jesus')Please note that others are also called 'Jesus' but no one confuses them with Christ Jesus of Nazareth.
Did anyone complain about him being called 'Jesus' as was done concerning 'John the Baptist' : there is no one of his relatives called 'John' as in our tradition?
We know that 'Jesus' is only our interpretation of the name and that it could just as easily be 'Joshua' hence 'Yeshua' so perhaps there were others in the family line of Joseph (Or Mary) who had that name – as in the tradition of the Jews!)Quote (kerwin @ April 23 2011,19:01) To all, Looking at John 3:10-13 it seems clear Jesus is speaking of the Word, spoken of in John 1:1-18, that was with the Elohim and was elohima in the beginning as the Word came down and united with the human Jesus. The same elohim that came down is still in heaven and will return to heaven in the flesh of Jesus.
Kerwin: Didn't Jesus clearly say that he would come again (manifest anew) to dwell in the believers? He said he and the Father would come as the spirit of truth (their all ONE) and dwell inside us. He said, John14:17… the spirit of truth dwelleth with you and shall be in you.He promised not to leave us as orphans! He said he and the Father would come and make their abode (home,dwelling place, a place to live) IN US. That where he is there we may be also! Jesus is at the right hand of the Father seated in power, dwelling in man. NOW! Jesus/the Father/the Spirit of truth have made their Temple within believers. Are you the temple of the living God? Yes!
Jesus is at the right hand of the Father and they including Spirit of God live in us. They comprise the Kingdom of God, the Kingdom of heaven, the Temple made without hands, and the Church which is the body of Christ.
Now how far do we have to reach to touch God? Where is heaven? When will we awaken from our sleep? When we awaken from our sleep, then is the resurrection through Jesus. IMO, TK
Quote (Istari @ April 23 2011,08:55) Does Hebrews not tell us, and Romans, that it was AFTER HE WAS RAISED UP (Which is the meaning of BEGOTTEN). So far, the skeptics fir this reading cannot reconcile the order and flow of the verses but simply to to see WORDS instead of SENTENCES, let alone MEANING.
First of all, “begotten” doesn't mean “raised up”, it means “brought forth, as in childbirth” – according to Strong.Secondly the “skeptics” include every scholar known to man as far as I can tell, and exclude only you, WJ, and KJ. I have never read ANYONE ever claiming that Jesus was “begotten” when he was raised to heaven except for you three. Not one of the early church fathers, nor any credible scholar that I'm aware of has ever understood Paul's use of Psalm 2:7 to mean Jesus was begotten when he was raised to heaven. They all agree that Jesus was begotten “before all the ages”.
You stand alone with KJ and WJ on this one, dude.
mike
Quote (kerwin @ April 23 2011,02:01) To all, Looking at John 3:10-13 it seems clear Jesus is speaking of the Word, spoken of in John 1:1-18, that was with the Elohim and was elohima in the beginning as the Word came down and united with the human Jesus. The same elohim that came down is still in heaven and will return to heaven in the flesh of Jesus.
Hi Kerwin,And this “Word of God”, who is itself (himself?) a god, also has the name “Son of Man”?
mike
Hi:
Begotten by the Holy Spirit in the womb of the virgin Mary, and born of the flesh according the seed of David:
Mat 1:20 And on his thinking of these things, lo, a messenger of the Lord in a dream appeared to him, saying, `Joseph, son of David, thou mayest not fear to receive Mary thy wife, for that which in her was begotten [is] of the Holy Spirit,
And he was begotten from the dead by the Holy Spirit of God:
Col 1:13 who did rescue us out of the authority of the darkness, and did translate [us] into the reign of the Son of His love,
Col 1:14 in whom we have the redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of the sins,
Col 1:15 who is the image of the invisible God, first-born of all creation,
Col 1:16 because in him were the all things created, those in the heavens, and those upon the earth, those visible, and those invisible, whether thrones, whether lordships, whether principalities, whether authorities; all things through him, and for him, have been created,
Col 1:17 and himself is before all, and the all things in him have consisted.
Col 1:18 And himself is the head of the body — the assembly —who is a beginning, a first-born out of the dead, that he might become in all [things] — himself — first,
Col 1:19 because in him it did please all the fulness to tabernacle,
Quote Rom 1:3 concerning His Son, (who is come of the seed of David according to the flesh, Rom 1:4 who is marked out Son of God in power, according to the Spirit of sanctification, by the rising again from the dead,) Jesus Christ our Lord;
Love in Christ,
MartyQuote (942767 @ April 25 2011,17:34) Hi: Begotten by the Holy Spirit in the womb of the virgin Mary, and born of the flesh according the seed of David:
Mat 1:20 And on his thinking of these things, lo, a messenger of the Lord in a dream appeared to him, saying, `Joseph, son of David, thou mayest not fear to receive Mary thy wife, for that which in her was begotten [is] of the Holy Spirit,
And he was begotten from the dead by the Holy Spirit of God:
Col 1:13 who did rescue us out of the authority of the darkness, and did translate [us] into the reign of the Son of His love,
Col 1:14 in whom we have the redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of the sins,
Col 1:15 who is the image of the invisible God, first-born of all creation,
Col 1:16 because in him were the all things created, those in the heavens, and those upon the earth, those visible, and those invisible, whether thrones, whether lordships, whether principalities, whether authorities; all things through him, and for him, have been created,
Col 1:17 and himself is before all, and the all things in him have consisted.
Col 1:18 And himself is the head of the body — the assembly —who is a beginning, a first-born out of the dead, that he might become in all [things] — himself — first,
Col 1:19 because in him it did please all the fulness to tabernacle,
Quote Rom 1:3 concerning His Son, (who is come of the seed of David according to the flesh, Rom 1:4 who is marked out Son of God in power, according to the Spirit of sanctification, by the rising again from the dead,) Jesus Christ our Lord;
Love in Christ,
Marty
martyCol 1:15 who is the image of the invisible God, first-born of all creation,
Is creation start wen Jesus was put in Marie by the holy spirit ?
Pierre
Quote (terraricca @ April 25 2011,12:04) Quote (942767 @ April 25 2011,17:34) Hi: Begotten by the Holy Spirit in the womb of the virgin Mary, and born of the flesh according the seed of David:
Mat 1:20 And on his thinking of these things, lo, a messenger of the Lord in a dream appeared to him, saying, `Joseph, son of David, thou mayest not fear to receive Mary thy wife, for that which in her was begotten [is] of the Holy Spirit,
And he was begotten from the dead by the Holy Spirit of God:
Col 1:13 who did rescue us out of the authority of the darkness, and did translate [us] into the reign of the Son of His love,
Col 1:14 in whom we have the redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of the sins,
Col 1:15 who is the image of the invisible God, first-born of all creation,
Col 1:16 because in him were the all things created, those in the heavens, and those upon the earth, those visible, and those invisible, whether thrones, whether lordships, whether principalities, whether authorities; all things through him, and for him, have been created,
Col 1:17 and himself is before all, and the all things in him have consisted.
Col 1:18 And himself is the head of the body — the assembly —who is a beginning, a first-born out of the dead, that he might become in all [things] — himself — first,
Col 1:19 because in him it did please all the fulness to tabernacle,
Quote Rom 1:3 concerning His Son, (who is come of the seed of David according to the flesh, Rom 1:4 who is marked out Son of God in power, according to the Spirit of sanctification, by the rising again from the dead,) Jesus Christ our Lord;
Love in Christ,
Marty
martyCol 1:15 who is the image of the invisible God, first-born of all creation,
Is creation start wen Jesus was put in Marie by the holy spirit ?
Pierre
Hi Pierre:The new creation, yes. No, man, that is none of his creation, had ever been born of God before Jesus, and so, he is the firstborn Son of all of creation, and we who have been born again, are also now sons of God by the spirit of adoption.
Love in Christ,
MartyQuote (942767 @ April 25 2011,20:23) Quote (terraricca @ April 25 2011,12:04) Quote (942767 @ April 25 2011,17:34) Hi: Begotten by the Holy Spirit in the womb of the virgin Mary, and born of the flesh according the seed of David:
Mat 1:20 And on his thinking of these things, lo, a messenger of the Lord in a dream appeared to him, saying, `Joseph, son of David, thou mayest not fear to receive Mary thy wife, for that which in her was begotten [is] of the Holy Spirit,
And he was begotten from the dead by the Holy Spirit of God:
Col 1:13 who did rescue us out of the authority of the darkness, and did translate [us] into the reign of the Son of His love,
Col 1:14 in whom we have the redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of the sins,
Col 1:15 who is the image of the invisible God, first-born of all creation,
Col 1:16 because in him were the all things created, those in the heavens, and those upon the earth, those visible, and those invisible, whether thrones, whether lordships, whether principalities, whether authorities; all things through him, and for him, have been created,
Col 1:17 and himself is before all, and the all things in him have consisted.
Col 1:18 And himself is the head of the body — the assembly —who is a beginning, a first-born out of the dead, that he might become in all [things] — himself — first,
Col 1:19 because in him it did please all the fulness to tabernacle,
Quote Rom 1:3 concerning His Son, (who is come of the seed of David according to the flesh, Rom 1:4 who is marked out Son of God in power, according to the Spirit of sanctification, by the rising again from the dead,) Jesus Christ our Lord;
Love in Christ,
Marty
martyCol 1:15 who is the image of the invisible God, first-born of all creation,
Is creation start wen Jesus was put in Marie by the holy spirit ?
Pierre
Hi Pierre:The new creation, yes. No, man, that is none of his creation, had ever been born of God before Jesus, and so, he is the firstborn Son of all of creation, and we who have been born again, are also now sons of God by the spirit of adoption.
Love in Christ,
Marty
Martythat is not what it says;The new creation, yes
and wen was Christ born ??
Pierre
It is not the new creation spoken of in Col 1:15 but the old creation which is made obvious in the immediate verse which follows.
The Firstborn of all creation created all things as the Firstborn, the image of the invisible God, God's only begotten Son born before the ages…the begotten God. God, the Father, so loved His Son and so loved the world that He gave His ONLY Son that whosoever believe in Him should not perish but have eternal life.Kathi
Quote (Lightenup @ April 25 2011,21:53) It is not the new creation spoken of in Col 1:15 but the old creation which is made obvious in the immediate verse which follows.
The Firstborn of all creation created all things as the Firstborn, the image of the invisible God, God's only begotten Son born before the ages…the begotten God. God, the Father, so loved His Son and so loved the world that He gave His ONLY Son that whosoever believe in Him should not perish but have eternal life.Kathi
Kathi
To all,
Here are some other scriptures to consider.
Quote Romans 1”(Young’s Literal Translation) 3concerning His Son, (who is come of the seed of David according to the flesh,
4who is marked out Son of God in power, according to the Spirit of sanctification, by the rising again from the dead,) Jesus Christ our Lord;Marked means separated, so Jesus was separated out as the Son of God in power according to the spirit of sanctification.
Quote John 4 (Young's Literal Translation) 23but, there cometh an hour, and it now is, when the true worshippers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for the Father also doth seek such to worship him;
24God [is] a Spirit, and those worshipping Him, in spirit and truth it doth behove to worship.'Romans 8 (Young's Literal Translation)
14for as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are the sons of God;
15for ye did not receive a spirit of bondage again for fear, but ye did receive a spirit of adoption in which we cry, `Abba — Father.'
16The Spirit himself doth testify with our spirit, that we are children of God;17and if children, also heirs, heirs, indeed, of God, and heirs together of Christ — if, indeed, we suffer together, that we may also be glorified together.
John 1 (Young's Literal Translation)
10in the world he was, and the world through him was made, and the world did not know him:
11to his own things he came, and his own people did not receive him;
12but as many as did receive him to them he gave authority to become sons of God — to those believing in his name,
13who — not of blood nor of a will of flesh, nor of a will of man but — of God were begotten.These scriptures testify believers will worship God in Spirit after they are begotten as sons through the Holy Spirit; though not of flesh but of God.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 25 2011,01:24) Quote (kerwin @ April 23 2011,02:01) To all, Looking at John 3:10-13 it seems clear Jesus is speaking of the Word, spoken of in John 1:1-18, that was with the Elohim and was elohima in the beginning as the Word came down and united with the human Jesus. The same elohim that came down is still in heaven and will return to heaven in the flesh of Jesus.
Hi Kerwin,And this “Word of God”, who is itself (himself?) a god, also has the name “Son of Man”?
mike
Ephesians 4:3-6Quote 3being diligent to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of the peace;
4one body and one Spirit, according as also ye were called in one hope of your calling;
5one Lord, one faith, one baptism,
6one God and Father of all, who [is] over all, and through all, and in you all,
Quote (kerwin @ April 26 2011,01:50) Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 25 2011,01:24) Quote (kerwin @ April 23 2011,02:01) To all, Looking at John 3:10-13 it seems clear Jesus is speaking of the Word, spoken of in John 1:1-18, that was with the Elohim and was elohima in the beginning as the Word came down and united with the human Jesus. The same elohim that came down is still in heaven and will return to heaven in the flesh of Jesus.
Hi Kerwin,And this “Word of God”, who is itself (himself?) a god, also has the name “Son of Man”?
mike
Ephesians 4:3-6Quote 3being diligent to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of the peace;
4one body and one Spirit, according as also ye were called in one hope of your calling;
5one Lord, one faith, one baptism,
6one God and Father of all, who [is] over all, and through all, and in you all,
KerwinEPH 4:1 Therefore I, the prisoner of the Lord, implore you to walk in a manner worthy of the calling with which you have been called,
EPH 4:2 with all humility and gentleness, with patience, showing tolerance for one another in love,
EPH 4:3 being diligent to preserve the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.
EPH 4:4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as also you were called in one hope of your calling;
EPH 4:5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism,
EPH 4:6 one God and Father of all who is over all and through all and in all.
EPH 4:7 But to each one of us grace was given according to the measure of Christ’s gift.
EPH 4:8 Therefore it says,
“WHEN HE ASCENDED ON HIGH,
HE LED CAPTIVE A HOST OF CAPTIVES,
AND HE GAVE GIFTS TO MEN.”
EPH 4:9 (Now this expression, “He ascended,” what does it mean except that He also had descended into the lower parts of the earth?
EPH 4:10 He who descended is Himself also He who ascended far above all the heavens, so that He might fill all things.)NAVersion
wen you quote, quote it right and truthfully.
Pierre
Quote (Lightenup @ April 25 2011,14:53) It is not the new creation spoken of in Col 1:15 but the old creation which is made obvious in the immediate verse which follows.
The Firstborn of all creation created all things as the Firstborn, the image of the invisible God, God's only begotten Son born before the ages…the begotten God. God, the Father, so loved His Son and so loved the world that He gave His ONLY Son that whosoever believe in Him should not perish but have eternal life.Kathi
Hi Kathi & Pierre:Show me who of God's creatures was born of God prior to Jesus being conceived by the Holy Spirit in the womb of the virgin Mary? But with him, is the beginning of the new creation. He is the last Adam according to scripture.
Quote Colossians 1:13Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son: 14In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
15Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: (Strong's definition for “firstborn” is “first begotten” and since Jesus was begotten by God by His Holy Spirit in the womb of the virgin Mary. This is how I am understanding what is being said here.)
16For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
17And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
18And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
19For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;
Love in Christ,
MartyMarty,
Creatures are by essence 'created' by God not 'born' of God. Creatures are a product of new matter. That which was born of God is not of 'new matter' but was eternal within the Father and then born of the Father at the appropriate time to act in the creation miracle of heaven and earth. The only one born of God created all things including the angels, He also appeared to man and interacted with man way before He emptied Himself and became man.Kathi
Marty
Col 1:10 And we pray this in order that you may live a life worthy of the Lord and may please him in every way: bearing fruit in every good work, growing in the knowledge of God,
Col 1:11 being strengthened with all power according to his glorious might so that you may have great endurance and patience, and joyfully
Col 1:12 giving thanks to the Father, who has qualified you to share in the inheritance of the saints in the kingdom of light.Col 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
Col 1:16 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him.Col 1:21 Once you were alienated from God and were enemies in your minds because of your evil behavior.
Col 1:22 But now he has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present youCol 3:8 But now you must rid yourselves of all such things as these: anger, rage, malice, slander, and filthy language from your lips.
Col 3:9 Do not lie to each other, since you have taken off your old self with its practices
Col 3:10 and have put on the new self, which is being renewed in knowledge in the image of its Creator.1Co 15:48 As was the earthly man, so are those who are of the earth; and as is the man from heaven, so also are those who are of heaven.
1Co 15:49 And just as we have borne the likeness of the earthly manyes the man from heaven ?
Pierre
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