John 1:1 in the beginning… which beginning?

[david]

Quote

I know that this is a one on one debate. i would like to pose a question for both of the debators I see there is alot of debate whether Jesus is God or not or he is one with him or part of him and etc. But shifting the focus, doesnt it mean anything to ya that the scripture that is referring to Jesus (If you agree in that) in John 1:1, that he was in the beggining? How does either side explain his existance or involvment in the Begginging? If you were to compare Genesis 1:1-5 and John 1:1-5 isnt it intresting that they both talk about first, the beggining, than creation, and than light and division of light and darkness? What was Johns intent in connecting Jesus to this scripture?

–SimplyForgiven (another thread)

Hi SF,
The question is indeed, which beginning.

In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth.
So, it's talking about the beginning of creation.  (It's not talking about 14 trillion years [time as we know it didn't exist] before the beginning of creation.)  It's talking about the time when the heavens and the earth (everything physical, the universe) was created.

So, the fact that Jesus already existed at this time doesn't prove a lot.  In Job are we not told that the angels cried out joyfully at the creation of the universe?

“Where did you happen to be when I founded the earth . . . when the morning stars joyfully cried out together, and all the sons of God began shouting in applause?” (Job 38:4-7)

Who were these “sons of God” or “morning stars” who were shouting in applause?  They had to exist before God created the Earth.  Jesus also existed.

What does Jesus (and the angels) existing before prove?

[kerwin]

david,

So scripture speaks falsely when it states Jesus, like John the Baptist and other human beings, was conceived in his mother's womb some two thousand plus years ago?

I chose to believe God instead of the conjectures of man.

Jesus is a human being just as I am but unlike me he did not give in to his evil desires. He promised me that and anyone else that is will to believe that they to can overcome the world, and so the desires of the world, just as he did. I trust him to do as he said.

[GeneBalthrop]

David…….There is (NO) proof that Jesus existed before His berth at all, except in the Plan and will of GOD. He is the (FIRST) and (ONLY) MAN to be Redeemed from mankind so far. The (FIRST BORN OF MANY BRETHREN) He is not some morphed person reincarnated from some Mystical Past as False Christianity tries to say. Jesus is one of us without exception and His destiny is the exact same as our can be. IMO

peace and love to you and yours…………………gene

[terraricca]

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ May 13 2010,04:16)

David…….There is (NO) proof that Jesus existed before His berth at all, except in the Plan and will of GOD. He is the (FIRST) and (ONLY) MAN to be Redeemed from mankind so far. The (FIRST BORN OF MANY BRETHREN) He is not some morphed person reincarnated from some Mystical Past as False Christianity tries to say. Jesus is one of us without exception and His destiny is the exact same as our can be. IMO peace and love to you and yours…………………gene

gene

Jn 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Jn 1:2 He was with God in the beginning.
Jn 1:3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

if you see the wording of verses3 it says all things were made.

and without him(the WORD)nothing was made that has been made.

this place the word(Jesus)at the very beginning of is own begotten by God the father,and that means before the universe was created to say the leased.

[NickHassan]

Hi T,
The Spirit creates for God[ps 104.30]
Now the Lord is the Spirit

[terraricca]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 14 2010,10:09)

Hi T, The Spirit creates for God[ps 104.30] Now the Lord is the Spirit

nick

God is spirit,Christ is spirit

Pierre

[NickHassan]

Hi T,
The Spirit of Christ was in the prophets.[1Peter1]
The word is the spirit of prophecy
The Word was with God

[terraricca]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 14 2010,15:52)

Hi T, The Spirit of Christ was in the prophets.[1Peter1] The word is the spirit of prophecy The Word was with God

nick

The Lord, the God of the spirits of the prophets

For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.”
Rev 22:21 The grace of the Lord Jesus be with God’s people. Amen

[terraricca]

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ May 13 2010,04:16)

David…….There is (NO) proof that Jesus existed before His berth at all, except in the Plan and will of GOD. He is the (FIRST) and (ONLY) MAN to be Redeemed from mankind so far. The (FIRST BORN OF MANY BRETHREN) He is not some morphed person reincarnated from some Mystical Past as False Christianity tries to say. Jesus is one of us without exception and His destiny is the exact same as our can be. IMO peace and love to you and yours…………………gene

gene

if you don't know just accept what is written and it will be true.

[NickHassan]

Hi T,
For us there is one Lord.
The Lord is the Spirit

[NickHassan]

Hi T,
God in us
Eph3
And I pray that you, being rooted and established in love, 18may have power, together with all the saints, to grasp how wide and long and high and deep is the love of Christ, 19and to know this love that surpasses knowledge—that you may be filled to the measure of all the fullness of God.
Christ in us

Colossians 1:27
to whom God willed to make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory.

Both
Jn14

23Jesus replied, “If anyone loves me, he will obey my teaching. My Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him. 24He who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me.

Both as the Spirit
Fellowship in the Spirit

2Cor13
14May the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all

[terraricca]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 14 2010,16:29)

Hi T, God in us Eph3 And I pray that you, being rooted and established in love, 18may have power, together with all the saints, to grasp how wide and long and high and deep is the love of Christ, 19and to know this love that surpasses knowledge—that you may be filled to the measure of all the fullness of God. Christ in us Colossians 1:27 to whom God willed to make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory. Both Jn14 23Jesus replied, “If anyone loves me, he will obey my teaching. My Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him. 24He who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me. Both as the Spirit Fellowship in the Spirit 2Cor13 14May the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all

nick

God in us ?
2Cor13
14May the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all

it does not say in it says with.

My Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him.

again it says with;

Colossians 1:27
to whom God willed to make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory.

here it says Christ IN you

Eph 3:17 That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love

here Paul tell us how Christ is in us

Pierre

[david]

Quote

david, So scripture speaks falsely when it states Jesus, like John the Baptist and other human beings, was conceived in his mother's womb some two thousand plus years ago?

Kerwin, I did not say that. There are so many trinitarians on here who would say that with God all things are possible. Why don't we just call it one of those paradoxes, or divine mysteries? No, that's too easy. Why don't we look at what the scripture actually says. Why don't we study the word in Greek, and see if that word somehow makes impossible the idea of Jesus existing before. “Before Abraham existed, I have been.” (I, unlike some, don't think Jesus was speaking of himself as a thought or idea here. It was a question of age. Look at the context and the question he was answering.) Anyway, I am lacking time, so let's stick with “divine mystery.” (I half joking and half mocking trinitarians use of that easy out.)

[NickHassan]

Hi t,
2Cor13.5

The Lord is the Spirit.

[kerwin]

David,

I tend to lack patience on the subject having addressed it frequently.   You are not the one to whom I have addressed it and perhaps I was too brusk.  God is not a God of paradoxes which some call divine mysteries.  

You believe that Jesus stated he existed before Abraham was born and yet scripture clearly states Jesus decended from Abraham.  Either one is true or the other, not both.  That is unless you believe in traveled to time to a point before Abraham was born.

It is correct that the idea of preexistence entered the Christian teachings long ago and that we have been taught it is true.  It is also true that some scripture can be interpreted to support it but in doing so it brings them in conflict with other scriptures.

Scripture also teaches us that it is important we believe Jesus is a human just like each of us and so was fully tempted as each of us are but unlike us he chose not to sin.  He had no advantage except for his total faith in God.   It is because of that faith and actions that resulted from it that God apointed him King of everything that is in heaven and on earth.

[terraricca]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 14 2010,19:02)

Hi t, 2Cor13.5 The Lord is the Spirit.

nick

2Co 13:5 Examine yourselves to see whether you are in the faith; test yourselves. Do you not realize that Christ Jesus is in you—unless, of course, you fail the test?
2Co 13:6 And I trust that you will discover that we have not failed the test.

Christ Jesus is in you;what that's means?? or one with Christ?

is this means that Christ as move in with you in your body or is now part of you as a new something added?

of cause not ,if the truth of the word (scriptures)are in you and there understanding and you practice what it says then and only then the spirit of Christ is in you and since the spirit of Christ is in you that is the full desire to do Gods will then the spirit of God is also in you because it is the will of God you are fallowing.and if have rid yourself of the world then the will and spirit of God takes over all your mind and spirit.
CAN YOU UNDERSTAND THIS??

[NickHassan]

Hi T,
No Christ and his God are in you if the Holy Spirit abides in you.
The Father and the Son are one in the Spirit.
One with God in His family

[NickHassan]

Hi T,
Read 2 Peter 1.19 and you will see the Spirit of Christ comes alive in us as we feed on the Word.

[GeneBalthrop]

Nick………..Try reading that scripture and instead of using the word Christ (as a person) Try using the words as written (The Christos) or anointing in you is the HOPE of GLORY. This (Christos) is the Holy Spirit and that Spirit was also (IN) Jesus the MAN, it was his Hope of Glory and is also our Hope of Glory to. Do not assume every time you see the word Christ it is referencing Jesus the person.

The Mystery spoken of was (HOW) GOD was (IN) Jesus, that Mystery is also present in all who Have the Christos in them also. Does any one know (HOW) GOD is Able to (INDWELL) a PERSON, NO, so that is the mystery being talked about here. IMO

peace and love to you and yours………………..gene

[kerwin]

Gene,

God is spirit. If you do as he does then he is doing his work through you.

[Author]

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