- This topic is empty.
- Posts
Pierre
You wrote:
Quote Kerwin
You always have a great imagination mean men s views,
Pierre
I have to shake my head at you lack of understanding. It is not a servant of God who makes accusations without cause and without evidence to back them up. God instructs us to test the spirit of what we hear and you have shown no desire to do this. My challenge stands to find scripture to disprove the hypothesis that John is calling the Spirit the Word and the human/spirit combination known as God is with us the light that comes into the world.
Your lack of being able to disprove it is no reason to hurl mud at the one asking you to do so. It is only an invitation to become more familiar with God and his kingdom so that you will be able to better test what comes from God and what does not.
Ed J.
I like Psalms 68:11, which tells of how his Word is spread. It also speaks of those who serve him as “eyes” running to and fro throughout the world to glorify his name. It does seem an appropriate scripture for God choosing to honor his creations by using them as his agents among men and angels.
I am attempting to point out that God Is in Jesus through the Holy Spirit reconciling himself to those that believe. A point John is obviously making in John 1. I am not stating that my hypothesis that the Word = Holy Spirit is correct but rather that at least in part John is letting us know God has come among us.
John 1 does relate to the unity of the Spirit of Christ.
Irene,
I have no intention of debating whether Jesus is a spirit being or a spiritual being of immortal flesh and blood on this thread. I will though point out that 1 Timothy 2:5 does point out that the human being Jesus the Anointed is currently serving as a mediator between humankind and God. It is then same human being Jesus the Anointed that sacrificed himself for us and was made king of everything by God.
Jesus mediates the New Covenant just as Mosses mediated with the elders in his time, Numbers 11:24-30. In other words it is only because God put’s Jesus faithful and true spirit in us that we are able to house God through the spirit of Holiness.
Worshipping Jesus,
You seem to put much stock in those you consider experts while I place not in such people. I choose to trust God alone and so his Son and all that serve him. I trust them only as long as they are in tune with what God states. This is the reason I test what I hear to see if it is false. To what extent I can I also attempt to prove what I believe is true but that is harder than determining if it is false? If you understand logical reasoning then you would understand why it is so.
The purpose of this thread is determined if a hypothesis I came up with is false.
The hypothesis that the Word = Jesus in John 1 is proved false by the fact scripture declares Jesus is a human being and no human being preexists the time he is created by God in his mother’s womb. In addition an individual is either a human being or he is some other type he cannot be both. A hybrid is part of more than one type of being and therefore not a human being. This is all factual and therefore cannot be disproved. At the most you can claim Jesus’ soul is preexistent and I am not sure of that. That is all irrelevant to the purpose of this threat which is searching for scriptures that disprove the hypothesis I put forth.
The spirit of God is a part of him even as your spirit is a part of you. It is also independent as your spirit is what you choose to live by. God also lives by his spirit and that is why it is referred to as God for when it lives in you God lives in you. God’s spirit serves him for more purposes that your spirit serves you as God is spirit. It serves him also as his active force and his witness. Since it does this it has characteristics of a person though it is not a person but rather the exact reflection of God. It is with God just like your spirit is with you but unlike your spirit it can be used like you would use an arm or leg to manipulate, create, change, and much more.
There is plenty of language that is used only once in scripture so that any particular way of looking at something is not worded the same way does not mean it is not so. Scripture does treat the Spirit as separate as God at the same time it treats it as him. I have one way of resolving this seeming contradiction and you have another but we both acknowledge the contradiction.
King Saul was changed through the Holy Spirit as are all believers who are baptized according to Romans 6. The Spirit is also explicitly testified in scripture as being present at the creation of the world. Jesus is not so explicitly said to have been present. Still I doubt that many Trinitarians will disagree that the Spirit also took part in creation.
In some case light means the light of understanding of God but in others I propose it is speaking of God with us, which is Jesus with the Spirit of God dwelling in his body. Jesus calls the Spirit of Holiness a Teacher and we know it spoke through the prophets of old to teach. Jesus with the Spirit of Holiness is the Teacher. We know the Spirit of God flows through all those in unity with it.
If I remember correctly Jesus tells his student the Spirit will not come to them, not him, in its aspect of Counselor until he ascends to heaven. I am pretty sure as a Trinitarian you also believe that just as Jesus stated his Father was in him previous to his ascension that the Spirit of God was also in him at that time.
I have previously considered Revelations 19:13 and agree that one title of Jesus is the Word of God but fact does not necessary lead to the conclusion that Jesus is the Word spoken of in John 1. I have not previously sufficiently considered 1 John 1:1-3 and would like to take time to consider it in relation to the words of John 1.
Marty,
I just advanced a hypothesis to be tested by the posters here. It is not one I have been able to disprove myself. I also agree that it is plausible that Word actually means Word. I am not sure there is much difference between God’s Word and his Spirit as God speaks and his Spirit carries out his Word. It is much like me thinking and my arm carrying out my thoughts.
I believe that Hebrews 1:10 is quoted using the midrashic (comparative meaning) method which has since come in disfavor. Thus the scripture is not directly speaking of Jesus but applies to Jesus none the less. The question then becomes how does it apply to Jesus who we know it the mediator of the new covenant. I see your answer to that question and will take time to consider it. Thank you.
Quote (kerwin @ Dec. 29 2010,19:24) Ed J. I like Psalms 68:11, which tells of how his Word is spread. It also speaks of those who serve him as “eyes” running to and fro throughout the world to glorify his name. It does seem an appropriate scripture for God choosing to honor his creations by using them as his agents among men and angels.
I am attempting to point out that God Is in Jesus through the Holy Spirit reconciling himself to those that believe. A point John is obviously making in John 1. I am not stating that my hypothesis that the Word = Holy Spirit is correct but rather that at least in part John is letting us know God has come among us.
John 1 does relate to the unity of the Spirit of Christ.
Hi Kerwin,Are you referring to the meaning and understanding of these Scriptures and how they relate to John 1:1-14?
Yes, the systems of religion and traditions of men have confused many for a Long L-O-N-G L – O – N – G time!
Systems of religion & traditions of men have taught: distortions of truth, confusion of mind, and distractions of spirit.2Cor.5:19 To wit, that God(HolySpirit) was in Christ,
reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and
hath committed unto us “The Word” of reconciliation.Eph.4:4-6 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; One Lord,
one faith, one baptism, One God and Father of all, who
is above all, and through all, and in you all.God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (kerwin @ Dec. 29 2010,19:38) Worshipping Jesus, I have previously considered Revelations 19:13 and agree that one title of Jesus is the Word of God but fact does not necessary lead to the conclusion that Jesus is the Word spoken of in John 1. I have not previously sufficiently considered 1 John 1:1-3 and would like to take time to consider it in relation to the words of John 1.
Hi Kerwin,Compare Rev.19:11-21 with Isaiah 63:3-10.and you will see that
Isaiah 63:3 and 10 identify “The Word” in Rev.19:13 as the “HolySpirit”!“the sharp sword” is “The Word”!
And the “HolySpirit” is HE and I !What do you suppose “the sharp sword” is in Rev.19:15?
Rev.19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it
he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron:
and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.Isaiah 63:3 I have trodden the winepress alone; and of the people there was none with me:
for I will tread them in mine anger, and trample them in my fury; and their blood
shall be sprinkled upon my garments, and I will stain all my raiment.But they rebelled, and vexed
his HolySpirit: therefore he
was turned to be their enemy,
and he fought against them. (Isaiah 63:10)God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (kerwin @ Dec. 29 2010,19:36) Irene, I have no intention of debating whether Jesus is a spirit being or a spiritual being of immortal flesh and blood on this thread. I will though point out that 1 Timothy 2:5 does point out that the human being Jesus the Anointed is currently serving as a mediator between humankind and God. It is then same human being Jesus the Anointed that sacrificed himself for us and was made king of everything by God.
Jesus mediates the New Covenant just as Mosses mediated with the elders in his time, Numbers 11:24-30. In other words it is only because God put’s Jesus faithful and true spirit in us that we are able to house God through the spirit of Holiness.
Kerwin, if Jesus went to Heaven to be with His Father after the resurrection, then I don't think that He went there in the flesh.1Cr 15:50 ¶ Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
I also don't believe that John 1;1 is Gods Holy Spirit. It is the same Jesus that John writes about in
Rev 19:13 And he [was] clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
Rev 19:14 And the armies [which were] in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
Rev 19:16 And he hath on [his] vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.If you see another being that fits that description tell me….Jesus also tells us in
Jhn 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
All these scriptures go great together. They fit……
God created Jesus inCol 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether [they be] thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
Col 1:17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.In order to create BY THE POWER OF JEHOVAH GOD, He had to be with Him….
Peace and love Irene
Quote (kerwin @ Dec. 30 2010,02:23) Pierre You wrote:
Quote Kerwin
You always have a great imagination mean men s views,
Pierre
I have to shake my head at you lack of understanding. It is not a servant of God who makes accusations without cause and without evidence to back them up. God instructs us to test the spirit of what we hear and you have shown no desire to do this. My challenge stands to find scripture to disprove the hypothesis that John is calling the Spirit the Word and the human/spirit combination known as God is with us the light that comes into the world.
Your lack of being able to disprove it is no reason to hurl mud at the one asking you to do so. It is only an invitation to become more familiar with God and his kingdom so that you will be able to better test what comes from God and what does not.
kerwinyou do not have to hide ,you do not follow scriptures and try to prove your views;
you come up with some of extreme expressions ,it would be better you would do more research on your own before put it here ,
because this is what you get when you put on imagination.
it is you who has a lack of understanding ,by not testing what you wan to share
PierreQuote (kerwin @ Dec. 28 2010,18:21) Mike Boll, Paul received the gospel from God and Jesus was the means God used to deliver that good news to Paul. Mosses received the Law of Mosses from God and angels were the means God used to deliver the terms of the covenant to him. God is not a human being or a group of human beings.
Yes Kerwin,So one could say, “I received it NOT FROM A MAN, but from an angel”. Or, “I received it NOT FROM A MAN, but from
God”. Or, “I received it NOT FROM A MAN, but from Jesus”. Or, “I received it NOT FROM A MAN, but from a dog”.All four of these statements mean the latter subject mentioned is NOT A MAN. Would you agree?
peace and love,
mikeAnd Kerwin, I thought the best way to see if your interpretation was plausible was to break it down little by little.
I'm STILL waiting on your answer to 1:1, part b.
peace and love,
mikeEd J.
I realize Jesus is part of the unity of the spirit of God and so the Holy Spirit dwells in him. That is the reason the Spirit of God is also known as the Spirit of Christ. I also realize that the Spirit of Christ dwelled and dwells with God just as our spirit dwells with us. It is also us in that we live by it and so it is our character.
One question is “why do posters here believe the Spirit does not dwell with God and is not him?”
A second one is “why do they not believe the Spirit of Christ dwells in Jesus?”
I have heard nothing, except from you and Marty, to show they believe that the prophecy that God will be with us” will is fulfilled in Jesus.
At the same time it may be that John is not calling the Spirit the Word in John 1:1-14 even though those versus are true about it.
It is through Faith in Jesus and thus obedience to his Words that we receive the Spirit of Holiness and so are reconciled to God by both Jesus and the Spirit of God.
I do find it most likely that the Sword in Revelation is the Word of God spoken by Jesus as he is carried along by the Holy Spirit. Once again I question why anyone who understood God would doubt that is the case.
I am not sure what your point is in quoting that scripture but it clearly displays that the Holy Spirit is God’s Spirit and not independent of God.Irene,
Why do you believe Jesus has the title of Word of God and God’s own Spirit does not?
I believe Ed was attempted to show by quoting Scripture that the Sword spoken of in Revelations 19:15 is the Word of God and we are instructed that the prophets of old spoke that same Word as they were carried along by the Spirit of Christ.
Jesus speaks that word because the Spirit dwells in him and God dwells in him through the Spirit that he has given Jesus in fulfillment of prophecy. My interpretation is supports the idea that John is speaking of God giving Jesus the Spirit of God in fulfillment of Isaiah 52:13-15.
I am looking to see though if anyone can provide scriptures that show that my hypothetical interpretation does not fit with scripture.
Pierre,
Are you stating that the Spirit of Christ does not dwell in Jesus?
Are you stating that the individual known as God with Us is not the light that gives light to the world?
Are you stating that the Spirit of God is not the part of God that he uses as a conduit to dwell within his servants and so in that way is God?
Are you stating that the Spirit of God is not with God even though it is a part of him?
Do you have any scriptural evidence to back up such statements?
Please make clear what your objections are instead of using baseless accusations.
I think you miss the point that I realize I lack understanding which is why I invited you and others to test my hypothesis. A hypothesis is a tentative assumption made in order to test its Spirit.
Mike Boll,
This does not seem hard to understand by one whom claims scripture that is written by men is the Word of God. It does not care what instrument God used be it dog, man, angel, or even a donkey the word he speaks through them still originates with him.
I am totally convinced Jesus speaks the Word of God. Is a man speaking through the dog? Is a man using the angel as a speaker? If not then it is not a man speaking but if so it is a man speaking.
As to the answer to your question, there are the songs titled “me, myself, and I”. In the case of God and his Holy Spirit they are not physically connected as God nor does the Spirit have a physical element. The connection is spiritual. So the Spirit can be with God and is with God at all times and it is also in a sense God because God walks according to its ways and it is an expression of his will.
Quote (kerwin @ Dec. 30 2010,19:23) Ed J. I realize Jesus is part of the unity of the spirit of God and so the Holy Spirit dwells in him. That is the reason the Spirit of God is also known as the Spirit of Christ. I also realize that the Spirit of Christ dwelled and dwells with God just as our spirit dwells with us. It is also us in that we live by it and so it is our character.
1) One question is “why do posters here believe the Spirit does not dwell with God and is not him?”
2) A second one is “why do they not believe the Spirit of Christ dwells in Jesus?”
3) I have heard nothing, except from you and Marty, to show they believe that the prophecy that God will be with us” will is fulfilled in Jesus.
4) At the same time it may be that John is not calling the Spirit the Word in John 1:1-14 even though those versus are true about it.
5) It is through Faith in Jesus and thus obedience to his Words that we receive the Spirit of Holiness and so are reconciled to God by both Jesus and the Spirit of God.
6) I do find it most likely that the Sword in Revelation is the Word of God spoken by Jesus as he is carried along by the Holy Spirit. Once again I question why anyone who understood God would doubt that is the case.
7)I am not sure what your point is in quoting that scripture but it clearly displays that the Holy Spirit is God’s Spirit and not independent of God.
Hi Kerwin,You don't get the insight you have unless you spend many
years of study, being open to the “HolySpirit's” guidance!1) Because 'the systems of religion' have confused them,
saying John 1:1 references who it clearly doesn't.2) They believe the “spirit” of Christ is Jesus' spirit.
Which I believe as well, because the spirit of christ
is part of the Father's HolySpirit. (Matt.1:18,20 / Luke 1:35)3) The HolySpirit in us, makes us fully back as God's children!
Gal.4:6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.4) Look carefully at…
2Cor.5:19 To wit, that God(HolySpirit) was in Christ, reconciling
the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them;
and hath committed unto us “The Word” of reconciliation.5) Why yes of course!
6) The sword is “The Word” spoken through the HolySpirit in us.
7) The HolySpirit is clearly part of YHVH!
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (kerwin @ Dec. 30 2010,19:23) Irene, Why do you believe Jesus has the title of Word of God and God’s own Spirit does not?
I believe Ed was attempted to show by quoting Scripture that the Sword spoken of in Revelations 19:15 is the Word of God and we are instructed that the prophets of old spoke that same Word as they were carried along by the Spirit of Christ.
Jesus speaks that word because the Spirit dwells in him and God dwells in him through the Spirit that he has given Jesus in fulfillment of prophecy. My interpretation is supports the idea that John is speaking of God giving Jesus the Spirit of God in fulfillment of Isaiah 52:13-15.
I am looking to see though if anyone can provide scriptures that show that my hypothetical interpretation does not fit with scripture.
Hi Kerwin,Of course “The Word” is the HolySpirit: is the correct interpretation. Consider…
1Peter 1:11-12 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify,
when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow. Unto whom it
was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now
reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the HolySpirit sent
down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (Ed J @ Dec. 28 2010,18:24) Hi WJ, Tim Kraft is Tim; 942767 is Marty.
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
Thanks EDI knew he was Marty but I don't know why I have been calling him Tim.
WJ
Quote (kerwin @ Dec. 29 2010,03:38) Worshipping Jesus, You seem to put much stock in those you consider experts while I place not in such people.
Isn’t this what I said…?
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Dec. 28 2010,12:31) I have the proof of hundreds of scholars who believe the “Word” is Jesus but the most important proof is the scriptures themselves for John says…
It seems to me you should put a little more trust in those who bring you the current Translations that you propose to know and understand above others.Do you read Greek, Hebrew or Aramaic? Then why would you push off your understanding to others above those who spent their entire lives to give us what we have?
Every man here makes the same claim as you…
Quote (kerwin @ Dec. 29 2010,03:38) I choose to trust God alone and so his Son and all that serve him. I trust them only as long as they are in tune with what God states.
But it seems to me that you make this claim even when all the scriptural evidence is against you?That seems to me to be very arrogant!
Blessings WJ
Quote (kerwin @ Dec. 31 2010,02:24) Pierre, Are you stating that the Spirit of Christ does not dwell in Jesus?
Are you stating that the individual known as God with Us is not the light that gives light to the world?
Are you stating that the Spirit of God is not the part of God that he uses as a conduit to dwell within his servants and so in that way is God?
Are you stating that the Spirit of God is not with God even though it is a part of him?
Do you have any scriptural evidence to back up such statements?
Please make clear what your objections are instead of using baseless accusations.
I think you miss the point that I realize I lack understanding which is why I invited you and others to test my hypothesis. A hypothesis is a tentative assumption made in order to test its Spirit.
Kerwinyou are out,do you know to what i respond wen I said what i said
you do not ,and change the subject of discussion,to answer me out of the blue,
no good boy
Pierre
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.
