- This topic has 259 replies, 30 voices, and was last updated 14 years ago by
.
- Posts
Quote (Texas @ April 07 2009,11:02) An examination of John 1: 1-20! The context Reveals What? With an addition!
Trinitarians will take this scripture out of context using only verse 1 to support the Trinity Doctrine. It is true most Bible Translations word this scripture in this manner: “In the beginning was the word, and the word was with God, and the word was God.” Ignoring the entire context of this scripture, that to them is the last word. To them, Jesus was God, and he was with himself. Does that sound a trifle strange to you, the reader? It should, because it is! Right from the outset there is something wrong with their teaching. That is because they are ignoring what the entire context is saying! When one takes the entire context into consideration, as should be done, quite a different picture emerges than what the Trinitarians would have us believe. Note how my Websters New World Dictionary defines this word 'Context.' …
… a joining together … to weave together … …the parts of a sentence, paragraph, discourse/ immediately next to or surrounding a specified word or passage and determining its exact meaning / to quote a remark out of context/ the whole situation, background, or environment relative to a particular event, personality, creation, ect.”
Did you notice? One can, 'quote a remark 'out of context'? By reading only one verse of scripture, or perhaps two, Trinitarians are quoting John 1:1 out of context and clouding the true meaning of what the entire context is saying, because reading the context in its entirety, shows their thinking to be terribly wrong.
Permit me now to 'join together' or 'weave together' certain other verses of this scripture in John 1: 1-18 so we can see clearly what the entire context is saying. Beginning with verse 1 which informs us: “In the beginning was the Word” … Now Bible scholars recognize that the Word spoken about here is, none other than our Lord Jesus Christ. He is identified by that name in the Revelation by John, in the following words: “And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in Blood: and his name is called THE WORD OF GOD.” Verse 2 tells us, the same was in the beginning with God!'
[Revelation 19:13] So, no doubt, Jesus is the Word that was with God in the beginning, and there was two separate entities together, not just one!Now, I will follow the rule given by Paul at 2 Corinthians 13:1 to supply two or three witnesses to, what I will now point out about the Christ being with the Father in the beginning. My first witness is found at Micah 5:2 where we learn this: “But thou, Beth'-le-hem Eph'-ra-tah, though thou be little among the Thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.” So, according to that verse Jesus has been in existence from, as it said, 'from of old.' Paul adds to that this information: “Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature.” [Colossians 1:15] Added to that, John calls Jesus “The faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation by God.” [Revelation 3:14]
Now, I know from experience that Trinitarians will try to distort the aforementioned scriptures, but they do that to their own peril! I will go on to show why that is. “Ye shall not add unto the word that I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you.” [Deuteronomy 4: 2] Compare [Deuteronomy 12: 32] [Proverbs 30:6] {Ecclesiastes 3:14] Now just how serious is adding to, or subracting from Jehohah's Word of Truth? The Apostle John in the Revelation account will answer that: “If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this Book: And if any man shall take away from the words of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the Book of life, and out of the Holy City, and from the things that are written in this Book.” [Revelalation 22: 18,19]
My advice to you Trinitarians is, don't tamper with Jehovah's word of Truth. Leave it alone! If you value at all your opportunity for everlasting life under God's Kingdom!
Thus far we see that Jesus has been with the Father from the beginning, being himself 'the beginning of the creation by God,' the 'firstborn of all creation.' As well, we have learned that he is the word who was with God in the beginning. Now move on down to verse fourteen and consider these words of John: “And the word was made flesh, and dwelt among us,[and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.” Now does this scripture tell us that God became flesh, and dwelt among us? Does it tell us that we beheld the glory of God? No! It does not does it! Now consider verse 18 where we read these words: “No man has seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosum of the Father, he hath declared him.”
Now would be a good time to use scripture to support scripture. By this, I am making reference to the words of Jesus at John 5:37 where Jesus is telling us this: “And the Father himself which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.” Now all of Jesus followers saw his shape, and heard his voice.. They stood face to face with Jesus, saw clearly his form, heard clearly his voice, but Jesus very pointedly said, “Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape. So, then, how could Jesus himself have been God? The truth is, he simply was not God Jehovah in the flesh. That is a Trinitarian lie, that is seen clearly now. I think in this instance we should believe the words of Jesus, for he taught nothing but the truth. Listen to this further truth stated by Jesus: “Not that any man has seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.” [John 6:46] Now, in case someone would accuse me of quoting scripture out of context by my using John 5:37;6:36 it should be remembered that I am not trying to support a false teaching, but, rather refute one; and I use these scriptures following the rule given by Paul to “supply two or three witnesses to establish a matter as the truth, so the two scriptures in John are my two witnesses. [2 Corinthians 13:1]
Now should anyone desire to read the entire accounts of both of those scriptures please feel free to do to that. Only don't stop there, I encourage all to read the entire Bible through. Was I to have quoted the scriptures above and below the two in question it would have cast confusion on the point I was trying to draw out, that no man has ever seen God. Time and space did not permit me to quote the entire passage of both of those scriptures in John, that would have only served to confuse the issue at hand, and would have detracted from the main point I was seeking to draw out, that 'no man has seen God at any time.'
Of course, in his heavenly existence he would have had to have seen his Father on many occassions. But, again, he pointed out that no man had ever seen the Father, because no man could look directly at Jehovah God and continue living. Jehovah told Moses who had asked, “I beseech thee, shew me thy glory. He was told, in part: “Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me and live.” [Exodus 34: 12-20] First Century Christians looked upon the face of Christ, and yet there is no record of anyone ever dying because of that fact. No Christ was not God in the flesh. That is so far from the truth its laughable.
In conclusion then, I would like to focus attention back to my dict
ionary definition of this word, “Context” a reading of it again is very revealing: “A joining together, to weave together” … “the parts of a sentence, paragraph, discourse, etc immediately next to or surrounding a specified word or passage and determining its exact meaning… the whole situation, background, or environment relevant to a particular event, personality, creation, etc. In other words, no one simply reads the first line of a discourse, and from that set forth a hard and fast interpretation, without first taking the entire discourse into consideration. The only way to determine the exact meaning of Johns discourse would be by examining closely every word, every sentence, every paragraph. When one does that with John 1: 1-18 he will find he has a very different picture painted than what the Trinitarians would have us believe is the case.I have shown that by joining together, or weaving together certain passages in John 1: 1-18 and then by supplying other supportive scriptures from the Bible, as I have done, one comes up with a picture quite different from the one drawn by Trinitarians. One must examine closely the whole situation as described by John in order to determine the exact meaning of what John is trying to draw out in his discourse.
By ignoring what is being focused on in the entire context, and setting forth an interpretation based on only one sentence; one is not only robbing himself, but he/she is robbing others of accurate knowledge of Jehovah and his Son, because only the truth will set us free, and only the truth will put us on the road to everlasting life. Trinitarians would rob us of these treasures, by teaching a doctrine that completely misrepresents Jehovah God and his dear Son, Jesus Christ.[John 8:32] [John 17:3] By following this lying doctrine one would be led on a path to certain death at the hands of the two who are being so sadly misrepresented. Jehovah and his Son Jesus Christ!
So, what does a thorough examination of John 1: 1-20 reveal? The context in its entirety, reveals that the Trinity Doctrine is a teaching inspired by demons, for who else would wish to so malign our great creator and his Son Jesus Christ, so as to mislead mankind into believing something about the creator and his son that is simply not true? [1 Timothy 4:1] [Revelation 12:9] [1 John 5:19] [2 Corinthians 4:3,4]
no… it doesn't sound strange to me… at least not any more strange than issues like why God allows evil to continue, why He ever created us in the first place, why He sent His son to die on the cross for the sins of His people, etc etc etc….
at any rate, if we allow the so called “strangeness” of an idea to dictate truth to us, we have descended into the worst kind of subjectivity.
You are right though, since the Bible calls Jesus “God”, I am content to have that be the last word…
as far as ignoring the context, ahhh no. Just because someone disagrees with your conclusions, based on your apparent “level of strangeness” method of interpretation, it does not follow that the context has been ignored. There are just too many excellent commentaries out there on John to even make this kind of superficial and easily refuted statement.
Further, rather than Webster's dictionary act as some kind of hermeneutical tool for you, something it was never designed to do, and get your hands on a good book on the art and science of interpretation… I have a few suggestions for you…. but as an aside, Noah Webster was a Trinitarian, so apparently he saw no inherent contradiction between the definition of the word “context” and the doctrine of the Trinity
Knowing Scripture by RC Sproul
Reading the Bible for All It's Worth by Gordon Fee and Douglas Stuart
Introduction To Biblical Interpretation by William W. Klein, Craig L. Blomberg, Robert L. Hubbard
Introduction to Biblical Interpretation by Walter C. Kaiser, Jr. and Moises Silva
that should help to get you started, and help correct the “strangeness” principle which is, itself, rather strange
blessings,
kenAs for me, In the beginning, God created all that is! When God created man he formed all his details of mans image in God's imagination. We are made from Gods imagination and spoken into existence. The entire structure of a man was detailed in Gods mind and released through words like all other creations of God. Adam was Gods dream formed into creative words and made flesh.Unlike Jesus, Adam was created not birthed or he was born of the female part of God who was androgenous. Jesus was born of a woman who believed the word of the Angel that said you will bear a son. We are all born once by a woman to enter this world. To see/percieve/understand the Kingdom of God within each person, one must be born again by Gods words which are Spirit. If we eat and drink of Jesus the true food and true drink then we become one with Jesus and God. You are what you eat! Bless all, TK
Hi TK,
Only flesh is male and female.
God is Spirit.We cannot see the kingdom till we are reborn from above.
The earthly view is patheticQuote (Nick Hassan @ April 15 2009,07:44) Hi E,
Why not just read the bible?
Truth is for kids.Hi N… check this out:
“In order to be able to expound the Scriptures, and as an aid to your pulpit studies, you will need to be familiar with the commentators: a glorious army, let me tell you, whose acquaintance will be your delight and profit. Of course, you are not such wiseacres as to think or say that you can expound Scripture without assistance from the works of divines and learned men who have laboured before you in the field of exposition. If you are of that opinion, pray remain so, for you are not worth the trouble of conversion, and like a little coterie who think with you, would resent the attempt as an insult to your infallibility. It seems odd, that certain men who talk so much of what the Holy Spirit reveals to themselves, should think so little of what he has revealed to others. My chat this afternoon is not for these great originals, but for you who are content to learn of holy men, taught of God, and mighty in the Scriptures. It has been the fashion of late years to speak against the use of commentaries. If there were any fear that the expositions of Matthew Henry, Gill, Scott, and others, would be exalted into Christian Targums, we would join the chorus of objectors, but the existence or approach of such a danger we do not suspect. The temptations of our times lie rather in empty pretensions to novelty of sentiment, than in a slavish following of accepted guides. A respectable acquaintance with the opinions of the giants of the past, might have saved many an erratic thinker from wild interpretations and outrageous inferences. Usually, we have found the despisers of commentaries to be men who have no sort of acquaintance with them; in their case, it is the opposite of familiarity which has bred contempt.” (Spurgeon, Commenting on Commentaries)
so why do you bother to read the posts on this forum? why don't you just go away and read the bible and the bible alone? do you ever read posts that are encouraging to you? have you ever learned something by reading some one else's post? I would hope that even you could admit to this N. You HAD to have learned something from a human teacher that you have held on to as a truth at some point or other, because what they taught you ended up being what you at least considered to be in line with the bible's teaching….. has t8 ever helped you in this way…? has he ever taught you something….? has anyone? Please, forthrightly answer these questions, I would really love to know….
And if you have learned from others, then please don't give me the overly pious line about only reading the bible, especially since that would be to contradict the bible itself….
for the bible ITSELF tells us that God has given teachers as a gift to the church….
1 Corinthians 12:28 (ESV) And God has appointed in the church first apostles, second prophets, third teachers….
Ephesians 4:11 (ESV) And he gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the shepherds and teachers….
and teachers teach us the truths of scripture…. not by necessarily regurgitating the bare text of the scriptures, though reading and memorizing the scriptures themselves is of course very important, but they are used of God by helping us to draw ever deeper truths form the scriptures… either perhaps by the use of analogy, or by equipping us with tools to better interpret the scriptures, or by any other number of teaching techniques… why?….. so that we may better understand the scriptures, and thus, know better how to apply the principles rightly deduced from the scriptures to our lives.
now maybe you don't need anyone to teach you N, maybe you, like God, already possess all knowledge, but for the rest of us mere mortal human beings, we actually need the body of Christ, for in the body of Christ there are all sorts of tasks and assignments given by God in order to help edify the body of Christ and to help us draw closer to God…. one of which is the job/gift of a teacher… and in this case I was recommending some teachers who have thought especially long and hard in the area of hermeneutics, that is why I recommended their books… but, again, maybe you already know everything and have no need of other humans… if so, then please, just ignore the post as it was not written to you in the first place.
blessings,
kenTim Kraft………..You have correctly said Man is reborn by GOD'S Words and they (ARE) SPIRIT and LIFE.
love and peace to you and yours……………………………gene
Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 16 2009,16:28) Hi E,
Trust the bible.
Theologians and humanistic teachers just fill our heads with follies.
ahhh… good… then I will distrust you, for you are a theologian and a humanistic teacher…and yet once again, you fail to answer a direct question with a direct answer… are you a politician N? You sure talk like one…. very slippery…. and not becoming of a so called “man of God” at all…
But then again, according to your logic, I should have expected this right? You are a “theologian” after all, and you are bound to deceive, right?
blessings,
kenNick……..And when did you reject the bible and start being a Judge instead of a doer, would be the better question. IMO
love and peace brother……………………………………..gene
Quote (epistemaniac @ April 16 2009,16:19) Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 15 2009,07:44) Hi E,
Why not just read the bible?
Truth is for kids.Hi N… check this out:
“In order to be able to expound the Scriptures, and as an aid to your pulpit studies, you will need to be familiar with the commentators: a glorious army, let me tell you, whose acquaintance will be your delight and profit. Of course, you are not such wiseacres as to think or say that you can expound Scripture without assistance from the works of divines and learned men who have laboured before you in the field of exposition. If you are of that opinion, pray remain so, for you are not worth the trouble of conversion, and like a little coterie who think with you, would resent the attempt as an insult to your infallibility. It seems odd, that certain men who talk so much of what the Holy Spirit reveals to themselves, should think so little of what he has revealed to others. My chat this afternoon is not for these great originals, but for you who are content to learn of holy men, taught of God, and mighty in the Scriptures. It has been the fashion of late years to speak against the use of commentaries. If there were any fear that the expositions of Matthew Henry, Gill, Scott, and others, would be exalted into Christian Targums, we would join the chorus of objectors, but the existence or approach of such a danger we do not suspect. The temptations of our times lie rather in empty pretensions to novelty of sentiment, than in a slavish following of accepted guides. A respectable acquaintance with the opinions of the giants of the past, might have saved many an erratic thinker from wild interpretations and outrageous inferences. Usually, we have found the despisers of commentaries to be men who have no sort of acquaintance with them; in their case, it is the opposite of familiarity which has bred contempt.” (Spurgeon, Commenting on Commentaries)
so why do you bother to read the posts on this forum? why don't you just go away and read the bible and the bible alone? do you ever read posts that are encouraging to you? have you ever learned something by reading some one else's post? I would hope that even you could admit to this N. You HAD to have learned something from a human teacher that you have held on to as a truth at some point or other, because what they taught you ended up being what you at least considered to be in line with the bible's teaching….. has t8 ever helped you in this way…? has he ever taught you something….? has anyone? Please, forthrightly answer these questions, I would really love to know….
And if you have learned from others, then please don't give me the overly pious line about only reading the bible, especially since that would be to contradict the bible itself….
for the bible ITSELF tells us that God has given teachers as a gift to the church….
1 Corinthians 12:28 (ESV) And God has appointed in the church first apostles, second prophets, third teachers….
Ephesians 4:11 (ESV) And he gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the shepherds and teachers….
and teachers teach us the truths of scripture…. not by necessarily regurgitating the bare text of the scriptures, though reading and memorizing the scriptures themselves is of course very important, but they are used of God by helping us to draw ever deeper truths form the scriptures… either perhaps by the use of analogy, or by equipping us with tools to better interpret the scriptures, or by any other number of teaching techniques… why?….. so that we may better understand the scriptures, and thus, know better how to apply the principles rightly deduced from the scriptures to our lives.
now maybe you don't need anyone to teach you N, maybe you, like God, already possess all knowledge, but for the rest of us mere mortal human beings, we actually need the body of Christ, for in the body of Christ there are all sorts of tasks and assignments given by God in order to help edify the body of Christ and to help us draw closer to God…. one of which is the job/gift of a teacher… and in this case I was recommending some teachers who have thought especially long and hard in the area of hermeneutics, that is why I recommended their books… but, again, maybe you already know everything and have no need of other humans… if so, then please, just ignore the post as it was not written to you in the first place.
blessings,
ken
AMEN, and AMEN to that , Ken.Georg
Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 16 2009,16:28) Hi E,
Trust the bible.
Theologians and humanistic teachers just fill our heads with follies.
You forgot NICK HASSANQuote (epistemaniac @ April 17 2009,01:52) Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 16 2009,16:28) Hi E,
Trust the bible.
Theologians and humanistic teachers just fill our heads with follies.
ahhh… good… then I will distrust you, for you are a theologian and a humanistic teacher…and yet once again, you fail to answer a direct question with a direct answer… are you a politician N? You sure talk like one…. very slippery…. and not becoming of a so called “man of God” at all…
But then again, according to your logic, I should have expected this right? You are a “theologian” after all, and you are bound to deceive, right?
blessings,
ken
Nick does not answer questions, he has no answers.Georg
Quote (tiggis @ Mar. 29 2010,15:21) * Sorry posted this before I ran the spellchecker – Forgive me I am new to your board and thought there was an edit key. “In the Beginning”
This is the same phrase used in the Septuagint (the Greek version of the Old Testament Scriptures Jesus quoted and the ones that the Jews used at the time).
I was no doubt written purposely to draw that reemergence from John's audience.
The difference is the following words to the same beginning.
Instead of “In the Beginning GOD” John used “In the Beginning was the Word”
The substitution of the WORD for GOD cannot be underplayed.
It is a definite action by John that is repeated throughout the gospel – using Jesus in modes of action and being that previously were reserved for GOD.It is also important to note that the Greek word “Was” implies eternal existence before the beginning.
Most people who try to make this imply a creation point for the “Word” do so because of a misunderstanding of eternity.
Eternity is not an abundance of time going forward. Eternity is outside of time. If GOD is eternal he will always exist and has always existed. Before the beginning (related back to Genesis) to the Jews is a clear indication that before anything existed was brought into existence the Word was.
To suggest that there is cause to apply a creation to the Word is always cause to apply a creation to GOD himself.
“The Word was with GOD”
The “Word' and “GOD” both have an article in front of them that shows their independence of being.
The word behind “with” shows a deep personal relationship or linking. It lends itself to a feeling of “To GOD” or “Intimate with GOD”. This compels the reader to acknowledge that the Word is not simply a representation of a divine attribute but has personage.
“And the Word was GOD”
Here the word “Logos” has the article in front of it whereas the word “GOD” does not.
This makes the word “GOD” without the article a Qualitative Noun.
The grammatical text here suggests that the word “GOD” here is qualitative.That means that all the attributes or qualities of God belong to the Son.
To imply that a 1st century Jew was telling other prior Jews who believe in only 1 GOD that the word was a “god” would be in direct contradiction of the 1st Jewish rule
“Hear oh Israel, the LORD our G_D is one LORD”
A paraphrase could be:
“In the beginning of all creation, the Word was already in existence. The Word was intimately with God. And the Word was as to His essence, fully God.” – (I did not write this, but it is true to the text when considering Greek Grammar and the context and the target of the text and their theological and physical world view)
Hi tiggisWelcome!
Good post.
Click here! for more info on John 1:1.
Blessings WJ
Hi and welcome Tiggis.
God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself[2cor5]
Yes God has visited His people but in Christ.Hi TIG,
Of course Jesus expressed the nature of his Father God.[jn20.17]
He was filled with the fullness of God's Holy Spirit.[Jn3]
He showed the gifts and fruit of the Spirit[Gal5]
But he was not his own God was he?[Jn20.17]Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 30 2010,07:50) Hi and welcome Tiggis.
God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself[2cor5]
Yes God has visited His people but in Christ.
This disproves that Christ is God how?thinker
Hi TT,
Jesus told the Jews the Father was the one they called God.[Jn8.54]
Was Jesus another god or god in some other way?
Why do you need several gods?Hi tiggis,
Welcome. Sorry to burst your bubble but what you have stated here is only a common myth:Quote It is also important to note that the Greek word “Was” implies eternal existence before the begining. If that is true then whenever we see the word “was” as it is in John 1:1, that would imply eternal existence. In the beginning was the word, not always was the word. If I said, “in the beginning was the word 'Let there be Light' ” we could use the same word “was” as in John 1:1 and it certainly wouldn't mean always was.
Just think about it…I hope you enjoy being challenged
Kathi/LU/Lightenup
Quote (thethinker @ Mar. 30 2010,08:31) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 30 2010,07:50) Hi and welcome Tiggis.
God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself[2cor5]
Yes God has visited His people but in Christ.
This disproves that Christ is God how?thinker
TTdon't make me luff ,WJ does not even have the spirit how could he be God???
and no man is God or can't even pretend to be a god unless he is in a institution.
also the one who has the spirit it would be easy to prove by is truth and true testimony of scriptures,
not the knowledge of scriptures, Satan also knows the scriptures ,he quote them to tempt Jesus.
and for what i have seen in the quotes and the different topic visited WJ you are just a good scholar.
this is my opinion
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.
