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hi KW,
Logic is of man and his attempts to define the ways of God.
We should rather stand in awe of Him and let His creation and His word reveal Him.Isaiah 1:18(NIV) reads:
Quote “Come now, let us reason together,” says the LORD. “Though your sins are like scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they are red as crimson, they shall be like wool.
Not according to God as you can see.
Acts 17:2(NIV) reads:
Quote As his custom was, Paul went into the synagogue, and on three Sabbath days he reasoned with them from the Scriptures,
and
Acts 18:4(NIV) reads:
Quote Every Sabbath he reasoned in the synagogue, trying to persuade Jews and Greeks.
You do realize that logic is called logical reasoning.
The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition copyright ©2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Updated in 2003 definition for reason reads:
Quote …
v.intr.
1. To use the faculty of reason; think logically.
2. To talk or argue logically and persuasively.
3. Obsolete To engage in conversation or discussion.v.tr.
1. To determine or conclude by logical thinking: reasoned out a solution to the problem.
2. To persuade or dissuade (someone) with reasons.'''
If you do not use logical reasoning then you use illogical reasoning. God is not illogical.
Hi KW,
God reasoned with the carnal separated sons of Israel as that was the only recourse.
Now men can grasp the understandings of God, which are beyond mere reason, by the Spirit.1Cor2
3And I was with you in weakness, and in fear, and in much trembling.4And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:
5That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.
6Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:
7But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
8Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
9But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
10But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
11For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
12Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
13Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
Nick Hassan wrote:
Quote God reasoned with the carnal separated sons of Israel as that was the only recourse.
Now men can grasp the understandings of God, which are beyond mere reason, by the Spirit.Do you realize that you are making the argument that scripture contradicts. I say this because you use Paul’s words to say that Paul did not use reason while Acts clearly states he did. Consider that perhaps you are misinterpreting the scripture you quote because when scripture contradicts there is something wrong as God does not contradict Himself.
Here is where I see your error.
1 Corinthians 2:5-8(Version unknown) reads:
Quote That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God. Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought: But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory: Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
As you see Paul splits wisdom into two types. One type is the wisdom of man and the other type is the wisdom of God. I have clearly made that point previously.
Now that you have brought it up by the scripture you chose to use I will point out that this scripture is dealing with the prophecy of Jesus’ coming that some are confused by to the point they believe it speaks of Jesus existing before the world. In this scripture that prophecy is called “hidden wisdom” and even the “princes of this world” were unaware of it though scripture plainly testified of it.
Ephesians 3:2-12(NIV) reads:
Quote Surely you have heard about the administration of God's grace that was given to me for you, that is, the mystery made known to me by revelation, as I have already written briefly. In reading this, then, you will be able to understand my insight into the mystery of Christ, which was not made known to men in other generations as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to God's holy apostles and prophets. This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus. I became a servant of this gospel by the gift of God's grace given me through the working of his power. Although I am less than the least of all God's people, this grace was given me: to preach to the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ, and to make plain to everyone the administration of this mystery, which for ages past was kept hidden in God, who created all things. His intent was that now, through the church, the manifold wisdom of God should be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly realms, according to his eternal purpose which he accomplished in Christ Jesus our Lord. In him and through faith in him we may approach God with freedom and confidence.
In this passage we are told that the mystery was hidden in God and even from “the rulers and authorities in the heavenly realms” and was only revealed in these later days even though it was also was revealed by the Spirit of God to the prophets. Doesn’t “In him and through faith in him we may approach God with freedom and confidence.” sound like:
Colossians 1:16(NIV) reads:
Quote For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him
Hi KW,
1 cor 2 clearly shows that the so called wisdom of man, of which reason is a part, is grossly inferior to that of God. It is limited by the spirit of man that only knows men.Carnal men cannot discern spiritual things and only by the Spirit can the ways of God be grasped.
Hi KW,
Paul is speaking to men renewed by the Spirit of Christ in their minds in all the epistles, including Ephesians. All the mysteries are now able to be expounded to them. They should understand the promise of the coming Christ was always writ large in prophecy but not visible to angels or to men till men could see the kingdom by gift of the Spirit.Now all the graces are accessible through the Spirit such that we can be remade in the image of Christ.
Nick………..But who are you to determine what is the wisdom of “man” or the wisdom of GOD seeing GOD gives man his wisdom. Wisdom is wisdom regardless of whose it is. The term wisdom of the world is referencing the wisdom that is from the world , and that is not evil of it self as you portray it, God simply add more wisdom to us, he doesn't take away the wisdom we already have. Your portrayal of Wisdom being Evil is pure foolishness. Thats like saying Knowledge is Evil, and while there may be evil and good knowledge, knowledge by it self it not evil, it is simple knowledge. The same with wisdom, wisdom of it self is good not evil even if it is worldly wisdom. Your constant labeling of things is a big problem with you Brother.
love and peace to you………………………….gene
G,
Scripture helps define the difference.
Lk11
49Therefore also said the wisdom of God, I will send them prophets and apostles, and some of them they shall slay and persecute:Scripture is the expressed wisdom of God.
Abide in scripture.Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 10 2009,01:10) G,
Scripture helps define the difference.
Lk11
49Therefore also said the wisdom of God, I will send them prophets and apostles, and some of them they shall slay and persecute:Scripture is the expressed wisdom of God.
Abide in scripture.
Nick,You seem to cleave to the letter of the law and not the spirit. If God sent a prophet would you believe what that prophet said? I ask this because the prophets did not come quoting scripture in many cases but they did speak the word of God.
Quote (chosenone @ April 08 2009,12:44) My opinion.
God created His son 'Jesus”, He was…”Gods creative original” (Rev.3:14) and also…”Who is the Image of the invisible God, Firstborn of every creature” (Co.1:15). He (Jesus) was the first and only creation of God, ALL ELSE was created 'by Jesus', through the power of God… “for in Him (Jesus) is all created, that in the heavens and that on the earth, the visible and the invisible, whether thrones, or lordships, or sovereignties, or authorities, all is created through Him and for Him”, (Col.1:16) (notice “through Him”)At the “consummation” (the completion of creation) …24 thereafter the consummation, whenever He may be giving up the kingdom to His God and Father, whenever He should be nullifying all sovereignty and all authority and power.
25 For He must be reigning until He should be placing all His enemies under His feet.
26 The last enemy is being abolished: death.
27 For He subjects all under His feet. Now whenever He may be saying that all is subject, it is evident that it is outside of Him Who subjects all to Him.
28 Now, whenever all may be subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also shall be subjected to Him Who subjects all to Him, that God may be All in all.) (1Cor.15-24-28).To sum this up … nevertheless for us there is one God, the Father, out of Whom all is, and we for Him, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through Whom all is, and we through Him. (1Cor.8:6)
Notice, “the Father, OUT OF WHOM ALL is”, then, “and one Lord, Jesus Christ, THROUGH WHOM ALL is”.In my opinion, these scriptures plainly explain that there is only one God, the “Father”.
Blessings.
CO,
Colossians clearly says that all things were created through Jesus and FOR Jesus.Quote All things were created through Him and FOR Him. Yet non-trinitarians say that all things were created FOR the Father. There is not so much as one new testament Scripture which says this. And you misunderstand the word “firstborn” in reference ot Christ. It does NOT say that Jesus is the first thing God created. It literally reads that He is the firstborn “over” every creature. The expression “every creature” refers to mankind. Paul was saying that Jesus was supreme over all mankind.
Quote Go you into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature (all nations of men). It is the same Greek terms in Colossians as in the great commission. He is supreme over all mankind. It has nothing to do with Christ being created.
Again, it clearly says that all things were created through Him and FOR Him. You said to notice that it says “through” Jesus. But this can mean immediate or intermediate agency. You assume intermediate agency. But your assumption is disproven because Paul said that all things were created FOR Jesus.
I have given more proof trinitarians use more than just “one” verse.
thinker
Quote (kerwin @ April 10 2009,07:12) Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 10 2009,01:10) G,
Scripture helps define the difference.
Lk11
49Therefore also said the wisdom of God, I will send them prophets and apostles, and some of them they shall slay and persecute:Scripture is the expressed wisdom of God.
Abide in scripture.
Nick,You seem to cleave to the letter of the law and not the spirit. If God sent a prophet would you believe what that prophet said? I ask this because the prophets did not come quoting scripture in many cases but they did speak the word of God.
Hi KW,
Rev19
10And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.Just a general comment and not aimed at anyone in particular.
It is wisdom to agree on the absolutes and allow differences of opinion on the variables because unity in the faith lies on absolutes. If we try to get everyone to agree with everything we think, then that is not wise.
If a person teaches against the absolutes, then agreeing with that teaching is not a good thing to do. If a person believes that Jesus had blue eyes, and other says brown eyes, then what does it matter? Such things are not worthy of eternal fame, so they are just silly.
Matthew 5:9
Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called sons of God.Ephesians 4:3
Make every effort to keep the unity of the Spirit through the bond of peace.Of course I am not advocating that we be in unity with the works of evil.
But it is wisdom from above to know what the absolutes are, and as a result we should know what should be corrected and what is not worth causing division over
Good post T8,
There are many that I feel I have unity with even-though I disagree with them on some points. Typically they have taken a different interpretation on some scriptures, but it is a reasonable interpretation and after all it might be me who has chosen the wrong “reasonable” interpretation.My opinion Wm
seekingtruth……….> I agree with you and T8 both on this. We are told to strive for that FAITH once delievered , Because GOD know that the truth would be altered by apostate teachings, So our striving is good as long as we don't attack a person personally. It like trying to put the pieces of a puzzle together some pieces can almost perfectly match another place but maybe the color is just slightly of and takes a closer examination, But GOD has equipped us to be able to do it with His Spirit of Truth. But it does require effort. IMO
love and Peace to you and yours…………………..gene
Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 09 2009,16:33) Quote (kerwin @ April 10 2009,07:12) Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 10 2009,01:10) G,
Scripture helps define the difference.
Lk11
49Therefore also said the wisdom of God, I will send them prophets and apostles, and some of them they shall slay and persecute:Scripture is the expressed wisdom of God.
Abide in scripture.
Nick,You seem to cleave to the letter of the law and not the spirit. If God sent a prophet would you believe what that prophet said? I ask this because the prophets did not come quoting scripture in many cases but they did speak the word of God.
Hi KW,
Rev19
10And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.
Nick,
Who do you think was the “him” in that passage in Revelations that you quoted?
LUHi LU,
Rev19
9And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.10And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.
An angel
Rev1
1The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:With respect: If as you say, The father, son, and true disciples are ONE and in the 17th Chap. of John at verses 22&23 Jesus said that the glory given him he has given us that we all may be ONE even as he and the father are ONE. Then Jesus said in prayer, I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in ONE! Maybe since Jesus never taught about the trinity and its a man made term if you think it doesn't align with the Truth I wouldn't teach it. Jesus is all and in all. Jesus is the door to the Temple, he is the Temple, he is the light of the temple, he is the bread, the final sacrifice, he is everything. I find no difference in words that say the same thing. If you say God that is the Father which is also the Son which is all of the Holy Spirit(literally whole Spirit). All terms, same God. If the Jews believed in Jesus as the messiah why did they have him killed? If the Jews had been believing God correctly they wouldn't have been called lost sheep! In Peace, Tim
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