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* Sorry posted this before I ran the spellchecker – Forgive me I am new to your board and thought there was an edit key.
“In the Beginning”
This is the same phrase used in the Septuagint (the Greek version of the Old Testament Scriptures Jesus quoted and the ones that the Jews used at the time).
I was no doubt written purposely to draw that reemergence from John's audience.
The difference is the following words to the same beginning.
Instead of “In the Beginning GOD” John used “In the Beginning was the Word”
The substitution of the WORD for GOD cannot be underplayed.
It is a definite action by John that is repeated throughout the gospel – using Jesus in modes of action and being that previously were reserved for GOD.It is also important to note that the Greek word “Was” implies eternal existence before the beginning.
Most people who try to make this imply a creation point for the “Word” do so because of a misunderstanding of eternity.
Eternity is not an abundance of time going forward. Eternity is outside of time. If GOD is eternal he will always exist and has always existed. Before the beginning (related back to Genesis) to the Jews is a clear indication that before anything existed was brought into existence the Word was.
To suggest that there is cause to apply a creation to the Word is always cause to apply a creation to GOD himself.
“The Word was with GOD”
The “Word' and “GOD” both have an article in front of them that shows their independence of being.
The word behind “with” shows a deep personal relationship or linking. It lends itself to a feeling of “To GOD” or “Intimate with GOD”. This compels the reader to acknowledge that the Word is not simply a representation of a divine attribute but has personage.
“And the Word was GOD”
Here the word “Logos” has the article in front of it whereas the word “GOD” does not.
This makes the word “GOD” without the article a Qualitative Noun.
The grammatical text here suggests that the word “GOD” here is qualitative.That means that all the attributes or qualities of God belong to the Son.
To imply that a 1st century Jew was telling other prior Jews who believe in only 1 GOD that the word was a “god” would be in direct contradiction of the 1st Jewish rule
“Hear oh Israel, the LORD our G_D is one LORD”
A paraphrase could be:
“In the beginning of all creation, the Word was already in existence. The Word was intimately with God. And the Word was as to His essence, fully God.” – (I did not write this, but it is true to the text when considering Greek Grammar and the context and the target of the text and their theological and physical world view)
An examination of John 1: 1-20! The context Reveals What?
With an addition!
Trinitarians will take this scripture out of context using only verse 1 to support the Trinity Doctrine. It is true most Bible Translations word this scripture in this manner: “In the beginning was the word, and the word was with God, and the word was God.” Ignoring the entire context of this scripture, that to them is the last word. To them, Jesus was God, and he was with himself. Does that sound a trifle strange to you, the reader? It should, because it is! Right from the outset there is something wrong with their teaching. That is because they are ignoring what the entire context is saying! When one takes the entire context into consideration, as should be done, quite a different picture emerges than what the Trinitarians would have us believe. Note how my Websters New World Dictionary defines this word 'Context.' …
… a joining together … to weave together … …the parts of a sentence, paragraph, discourse/ immediately next to or surrounding a specified word or passage and determining its exact meaning / to quote a remark out of context/ the whole situation, background, or environment relative to a particular event, personality, creation, ect.”
Did you notice? One can, 'quote a remark 'out of context'? By reading only one verse of scripture, or perhaps two, Trinitarians are quoting John 1:1 out of context and clouding the true meaning of what the entire context is saying, because reading the context in its entirety, shows their thinking to be terribly wrong.
Permit me now to 'join together' or 'weave together' certain other verses of this scripture in John 1: 1-18 so we can see clearly what the entire context is saying. Beginning with verse 1 which informs us: “In the beginning was the Word” … Now Bible scholars recognize that the Word spoken about here is, none other than our Lord Jesus Christ. He is identified by that name in the Revelation by John, in the following words: “And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in Blood: and his name is called THE WORD OF GOD.” Verse 2 tells us, the same was in the beginning with God!'
[Revelation 19:13] So, no doubt, Jesus is the Word that was with God in the beginning, and there was two separate entities together, not just one!Now, I will follow the rule given by Paul at 2 Corinthians 13:1 to supply two or three witnesses to, what I will now point out about the Christ being with the Father in the beginning. My first witness is found at Micah 5:2 where we learn this: “But thou, Beth'-le-hem Eph'-ra-tah, though thou be little among the Thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.” So, according to that verse Jesus has been in existence from, as it said, 'from of old.' Paul adds to that this information: “Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature.” [Colossians 1:15] Added to that, John calls Jesus “The faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation by God.” [Revelation 3:14]
Now, I know from experience that Trinitarians will try to distort the aforementioned scriptures, but they do that to their own peril! I will go on to show why that is. “Ye shall not add unto the word that I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you.” [Deuteronomy 4: 2] Compare [Deuteronomy 12: 32] [Proverbs 30:6] {Ecclesiastes 3:14] Now just how serious is adding to, or subracting from Jehohah's Word of Truth? The Apostle John in the Revelation account will answer that: “If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this Book: And if any man shall take away from the words of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the Book of life, and out of the Holy City, and from the things that are written in this Book.” [Revelalation 22: 18,19]
My advice to you Trinitarians is, don't tamper with Jehovah's word of Truth. Leave it alone! If you value at all your opportunity for everlasting life under God's Kingdom!
Thus far we see that Jesus has been with the Father from the beginning, being himself 'the beginning of the creation by God,' the 'firstborn of all creation.' As well, we have learned that he is the word who was with God in the beginning. Now move on down to verse fourteen and consider these words of John: “And the word was made flesh, and dwelt among us,[and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.” Now does this scripture tell us that God became flesh, and dwelt among us? Does it tell us that we beheld the glory of God? No! It does not does it! Now consider verse 18 where we read these words: “No man has seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosum of the Father, he hath declared him.”
Now would be a good time to use scripture to support scripture. By this, I am making reference to the words of Jesus at John 5:37 where Jesus is telling us this: “And the Father himself which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.” Now all of Jesus followers saw his shape, and heard his voice.. They stood face to face with Jesus, saw clearly his form, heard clearly his voice, but Jesus very pointedly said, “Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape. So, then, how could Jesus himself have been God? The truth is, he simply was not God Jehovah in the flesh. That is a Trinitarian lie, that is seen clearly now. I think in this instance we should believe the words of Jesus, for he taught nothing but the truth. Listen to this further truth stated by Jesus: “Not that any man has seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.” [John 6:46] Now, in case someone would accuse me of quoting scripture out of context by my using John 5:37;6:36 it should be remembered that I am not trying to support a false teaching, but, rather refute one; and I use these scriptures following the rule given by Paul to “supply two or three witnesses to establish a matter as the truth, so the two scriptures in John are my two witnesses. [2 Corinthians 13:1]
Now should anyone desire to read the entire accounts of both of those scriptures please feel free to do to that. Only don't stop there, I encourage all to read the entire Bible through. Was I to have quoted the scriptures above and below the two in question it would have cast confusion on the point I was trying to draw out, that no man has ever seen God. Time and space did not permit me to quote the entire passage of both of those scriptures in John, that would have only served to confuse the issue at hand, and would have detracted from the main point I was seeking to draw out, that 'no man has seen God at any time.'
Of course, in his heavenly existence he would have had to have seen his Father on many occassions. But, again, he pointed out that no man had ever seen the Father, because no man could look directly at Jehovah God and continue living. Jehovah told Moses who had asked, “I beseech thee, shew me thy glory. He was told, in part: “Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me and live.” [Exodus 34: 12-20] First Century Christians looked upon the face of Christ, and yet there is no record of anyone ever dying because of that fact. No Christ was not God in the flesh. That is so far from the truth its laughable.
In conclusion then, I would like to focus attention back to my dictionary definition of this word, “Context” a reading of it again is very revealing: “A joining together, to weave together” … “the parts of a sentence, paragraph, discourse, etc immediately next to or surrounding a specified word or passage an
d determining its exact meaning… the whole situation, background, or environment relevant to a particular event, personality, creation, etc. In other words, no one simply reads the first line of a discourse, and from that set forth a hard and fast interpretation, without first taking the entire discourse into consideration. The only way to determine the exact meaning of Johns discourse would be by examining closely every word, every sentence, every paragraph. When one does that with John 1: 1-18 he will find he has a very different picture painted than what the Trinitarians would have us believe is the case.I have shown that by joining together, or weaving together certain passages in John 1: 1-18 and then by supplying other supportive scriptures from the Bible, as I have done, one comes up with a picture quite different from the one drawn by Trinitarians. One must examine closely the whole situation as described by John in order to determine the exact meaning of what John is trying to draw out in his discourse.
By ignoring what is being focused on in the entire context, and setting forth an interpretation based on only one sentence; one is not only robbing himself, but he/she is robbing others of accurate knowledge of Jehovah and his Son, because only the truth will set us free, and only the truth will put us on the road to everlasting life. Trinitarians would rob us of these treasures, by teaching a doctrine that completely misrepresents Jehovah God and his dear Son, Jesus Christ.[John 8:32] [John 17:3] By following this lying doctrine one would be led on a path to certain death at the hands of the two who are being so sadly misrepresented. Jehovah and his Son Jesus Christ!
So, what does a thorough examination of John 1: 1-20 reveal? The context in its entirety, reveals that the Trinity Doctrine is a teaching inspired by demons, for who else would wish to so malign our great creator and his Son Jesus Christ, so as to mislead mankind into believing something about the creator and his son that is simply not true? [1 Timothy 4:1] [Revelation 12:9] [1 John 5:19] [2 Corinthians 4:3,4]
Welcome Texas. You seem very aware of trinitarian methodology.
Thank you for your solid treatment of the subject at hand.Blessings,
Seeking
Hi Texas.
Would you mind if I change the name of this discussion.
It shows up as Texas Texas and the first one is the post and the other link is your profile page which makes it confusing as to which link to click on.
Also, Texas isn't very descriptive of the subject you talk about and having a better subject will mean that more people who are interested in that subject will visit.Can I change it to “An examination of John 1: 1-20!”
In addition, I would like to move this to the Scripture forum as this is obviously an examination of scripture.
When you post in the Debate forum, you need to set up some rules like who will be debating with you and whether you allow free for all posting thereafter.
I know this: The Father,Son & HolySpirit are ONE. Just like flame,fire & heat! Jesus said the Father and I are ONE. God is the whole Spirit, humans are piece's of God like drops of ocean we have everything that God is composed of within. We live with God and God lives with each of us. God gave man the controls. God will never usurp or override mans will to accept or reject the oneness of the relationship. This is the Gospel we are supposed to be hearing but mans ideas about God/religion has darkened and distorted our minds to this Truth.
Jesus came to renew or awaken mankind to what had always been the Truth. God never left man, man began thinking incorrectly which began to separate his beliefs from God. He began to believe an error in his mind that God was leaving him or separating from him. That error is sin. Sin is believing God is separated from you for any reason. God will never leave us and the only way we can separate ourselves from God is to believe our own created illusion of truth,this is sin/error. You don't become a Son of God, you awaken to the fact that you have always been a Son of God. God doesn't come and go, he's everywhere. Your mind is what changes to and fro as to your position with God seemingly changes based on how good or bad you think you have performed. That is a sin/error consciousness. One must wash away the old thinking by baptising with the Spirit/Word of God that you are sinless and the righteousness of God in Christ. If you believe in sin, and evil, and all the anti-christ doctrines of being unclean, then that is what you will experience in life. Love,peace,Joy, TimI know this: The Father,Son & HolySpirit are ONE. Just like flame,fire & heat! Jesus said the Father and I are ONE. God is the whole Spirit, humans are piece's of God like drops of ocean we have everything that God is composed of within. We live with God and God lives with each of us. God gave man the controls. God will never usurp or override mans will to accept or reject the oneness of the relationship. This is the Gospel we are supposed to be hearing but mans ideas about God/religion has darkened and distorted our minds to this Truth.
Jesus came to renew or awaken mankind to what had always been the Truth. God never left man, man began thinking incorrectly(Adam chose evil) which began to separate his beliefs from God. He began to believe an error in his mind that God was leaving him or separating from him. That error is sin. Sin is believing God is separated from you for any reason. God will never leave us and the only way we can separate ourselves from God is to believe our own created illusion of truth,this is sin/error. You don't become a Son of God, you awaken to the fact that you have always been a Son of God. God doesn't come and go, he's everywhere. Your mind is what changes to and fro as to your position with God seemingly changes based on how good or bad you think you have performed. That is a sin/error consciousness. One must wash away the old thinking by baptising with the Spirit/Word of God that you are sinless and the righteousness of God in Christ. If you believe in sin, and evil, and all the anti-christ doctrines of being unclean, then that is what you will experience in life. Love,peace,Joy, TimI know this, the Father, the son, and true disciples are one.
John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.So should I teach a Trinity composed of the Father, Son, Bride?
Also, the Father is the one God.
1 Corinthians 8:6
yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.It doesn't say, one God the Father, Son, Spirit, as you say.
Confirmation is here:
John 17:3
Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.If that is eternal life, then surely it is worth believing those words. Notice the one true God (the same one the Jews believed in) AND Jesus Christ whom HE has sent.
You have been given 3 witness scriptures. Will you take them seriously or ignore them?
I have moved this discussion to the “Scripture and Biblical Doctrine forum – a more recognizable forum for this type of discussion as it is not an official debate, but is about scripture.
I also gave it a title that describes what it is about.
This will make it easier to find, rather than people just Texans stumbling across it.
Quote (heaven @ April 07 2009,12:37) Hi Texas. Would you mind if I change the name of this discussion.
It shows up as Texas Texas and the first one is the post and the other link is your profile page which makes it confusing as to which link to click on.
Also, Texas isn't very descriptive of the subject you talk about and having a better subject will mean that more people who are interested in that subject will visit.Can I change it to “An examination of John 1: 1-20!”
In addition, I would like to move this to the Scripture forum as this is obviously an examination of scripture.
When you post in the Debate forum, you need to set up some rules like who will be debating with you and whether you allow free for all posting thereafter.
Hi Heaven!
I thought that I titled that Post, “Read it in context!” Maybe not though! You are welcome to change it as you feel necessary. TexasTexas said:
Quote Trinitarians will take this scripture out of context using only verse 1 to support the Trinity Doctrine. Seeking replied:
Quote Welcome Texas. You seem very aware of trinitarian methodology.
Thank you for your solid treatment of the subject at hand.Neither Texas or Seeking have the faintest idea of triniarian “methodology.” And Texas errs in saying that trinitarians use only verse 1 alone.
vs. 3: All things were created by Him (Jesus).
vs. 4: In Him (Jesus) was life.
vs. 9: That (Jesus) was the true lightMajor premise: God is Light
Minor premise: Jesus is the true light
Conclusion: Therefore, Jesus is Godvs. 10: He (Jesus) was in the world and the world was MADE by Him
vs. 18: No man has seen God at any time but the only begotten Son….Major premise: No man has seen God at any time
Minior premise: The Son has seen God
Conclusion: The Son is not [mere] manSo much for Texas's false charge that trinitarians use only verse 1. And so much for Seeking's patting Texas on the back saying that he is aware of trinitarian “methodology.” If texas was aware of trinitarian methodology he would have known that trinitarians expound the chapter line upon line and precept upon precept.
As it stands to this point all Texas has shown is that he is aware of what others have taught him about terinitarian methodology.
Texas said:
Quote To them, Jesus was God, and he was with himself. No! That's what you say. The expression “with God” means that Jesus beheld the face of God and and God beheld the face of Jesus and saw the perfect reflection of Himself.
If there is a non-trinitarian on this board that has a formal Bible education and has taken courses in logic as well, then let him so identify himself. Texas is just another wannabe scholar.
thinker
Quote (thethinker @ April 07 2009,08:28) Quote And so much for Seeking's patting Texas on the back thinker states
Quote If there is a non-trinitarian on this board that has a formal Bible education and has taken courses in logic as well, then let him so identify himself. Pro 27:2 Let another praise you, and not your own mouth; a stranger, and not your own lips.
1Co 1:20 Where is the one who is wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world?
1Co 3:19 For the wisdom of this world is folly with God. For it is written, “He catches the wise in their craftiness,”
thinker asserts
Quote Texas is just another wannabe scholar. Rom 14:4 Who are you to pass judgment on the servant of another? It is before his own master that he stands or falls. And he will be upheld, for the Lord is able to make him stand.
Seeking
Quote (thethinker @ April 08 2009,03:28) Texas said: Quote Trinitarians will take this scripture out of context using only verse 1 to support the Trinity Doctrine. Seeking replied:
Quote Welcome Texas. You seem very aware of trinitarian methodology.
Thank you for your solid treatment of the subject at hand.Neither Texas or Seeking have the faintest idea of triniarian “methodology.” And Texas errs in saying that trinitarians use only verse 1 alone.
vs. 3: All things were created by Him (Jesus).
vs. 4: In Him (Jesus) was life.
vs. 9: That (Jesus) was the true lightMajor premise: God is Light
Minor premise: Jesus is the true light
Conclusion: Therefore, Jesus is Godvs. 10: He (Jesus) was in the world and the world was MADE by Him
vs. 18: No man has seen God at any time but the only begotten Son….Major premise: No man has seen God at any time
Minior premise: The Son has seen God
Conclusion: The Son is not [mere] manSo much for Texas's false charge that trinitarians use only verse 1. And so much for Seeking's patting Texas on the back saying that he is aware of trinitarian “methodology.” If texas was aware of trinitarian methodology he would have known that trinitarians expound the chapter line upon line and precept upon precept.
As it stands to this point all Texas has shown is that he is aware of what others have taught him about terinitarian methodology.
Texas said:
Quote To them, Jesus was God, and he was with himself. No! That's what you say. The expression “with God” means that Jesus beheld the face of God and and God beheld the face of Jesus and saw the perfect reflection of Himself.
If there is a non-trinitarian on this board that has a formal Bible education and has taken courses in logic as well, then let him so identify himself. Texas is just another wannabe scholar.
thinker
Hi tt,
Thank you for detailing the weak methodology that leads to the false conclusion that Jesus is his own father and God.If there is a non-trinitarian on this board that has a formal Bible education and has taken courses in logic as well, then let him so identify himself.
1Co 1:20 Where is the one who is wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world?
1Co 1:21 For since, in the wisdom of God, the world did not know God through wisdom, it pleased God through the folly of what we preach to save those who believe.
1Co 2:6 Yet among the mature we do impart wisdom, although it is not a wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are doomed to pass away.
1Co 3:19 For the wisdom of this world is folly with God. For it is written, “He catches the wise in their craftiness,”
Seeking
Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 07 2009,12:20) Hi S,
Not me.
35 years listening to and awed by the bible.
1Pe 2:6 Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.Perhaps that is why you are not confounded and confused by the wisdom of the world and the worship of intellectual pursuits.
Blessings,
Seeking
Quote (SEEKING @ April 08 2009,06:30) Quote (thethinker @ April 07 2009,08:28) Quote And so much for Seeking's patting Texas on the back thinker states
Quote If there is a non-trinitarian on this board that has a formal Bible education and has taken courses in logic as well, then let him so identify himself. Pro 27:2 Let another praise you, and not your own mouth; a stranger, and not your own lips.
1Co 1:20 Where is the one who is wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world?
1Co 3:19 For the wisdom of this world is folly with God. For it is written, “He catches the wise in their craftiness,”
thinker asserts
Quote Texas is just another wannabe scholar. Rom 14:4 Who are you to pass judgment on the servant of another? It is before his own master that he stands or falls. And he will be upheld, for the Lord is able to make him stand.
Seeking
Seeking,
The reason I brought up formal education is because one who has had a formal education would know of the methodologies of the various schools of thought in Christendom. Let's take you for instance. If you had a formal theological education you would have replied to Texas saying, “In all fairness the trinitarians do not base their theology on one verse. It has to do with the hermeneutic they employ” or something like that.And you know from your discourses here that trinitarians have a great arsenal of Scriptures and not just one verse as Texas has so erroneously asserted.
Now, does someone care to answer verse 10,
Quote He was in the world, and the world was made by Him, and the world knew Him not Jesus created those who rejected Him. Does anyone care to comment on this seeing that we trinitarians hang our hat on just “one verse”?
thinker
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